:00:09. > :00:12.you. Tonight on Newsnight Scotlandt: The
:00:12. > :00:16.chairman of a leading FE College quits, claiming he's the victim of
:00:16. > :00:19.an unwarranted personal attack by the Education Secretary. Kirk
:00:19. > :00:22.Ramsay secretly recorded a meeting involving Michael Russell. We'll be
:00:22. > :00:29.speaking to him live about what happened and what he thinks should
:00:29. > :00:32.Good evening. The chairman of one of Scotland's leading Further
:00:32. > :00:35.Education colleges has quit his job tonight. Kirk Ramsay of Stow
:00:35. > :00:37.College in Glasgow says he's the victim of an unwarranted personal
:00:38. > :00:41.attack. And his alleged attacker? The Education Secretary, Mike
:00:41. > :00:44.Russell. Mr Russell demanded Mr Ramsay's head when it was revealed
:00:44. > :00:50.that he'd secretly recorded a meeting attended by the Education
:00:50. > :00:52.Secretary. Well, now he's got it. I'll be speaking to Mr Ramsay in a
:00:52. > :00:54.moment, as well as to Stuart Maxwell, the SNP convener of
:00:54. > :00:58.Holyrood's education committee, and Hugh Henry, Labour's education
:00:58. > :01:08.spokesman. But first, Laura Bicker reports on an acrimonious spat, and
:01:08. > :01:10.
:01:11. > :01:15.the future of Scotland's Further It is usually the staff but spy
:01:15. > :01:25.drama, but now a secret recording at a private meeting has asked all
:01:25. > :01:26.
:01:26. > :01:30.asking why a? And what is going on in our colleges? Here is what we
:01:30. > :01:38.know, Mike Russell was having a meeting with further education
:01:38. > :01:42.college ministers, unknown to him it was being secretly recorded by
:01:42. > :01:46.Kirk Ramsay, chairman of Stow College. It is said that Mr Ramsey
:01:47. > :01:50.gave that versions of the recording to other leaders in the day of
:01:50. > :01:54.education sector. He later apologised, but Mike Russell says
:01:54. > :02:01.he no longer trust a man, and has demanded that he consider his
:02:01. > :02:08.position. Some consider that harassment and bullying. A question
:02:08. > :02:11.in Holyrood today. People are contacting me to say they are
:02:11. > :02:20.frightened to speak out about the way the Cabinet Secretary is
:02:20. > :02:27.treating them. Surely the way he has BA towards Mr Ramsay -- the way
:02:27. > :02:34.has behaved towards Mr Ramsay has confirmed these fears? Is it time
:02:34. > :02:38.he apologise? The meeting in question was a very positive one,
:02:38. > :02:43.as most of them are. We engaged in a process of radical reform, which
:02:43. > :02:48.is important in all parts of the sector. We are debating and
:02:48. > :02:56.discussing what should take place. Anything diminishing those debates,
:02:56. > :03:01.such as a secret recording is to be regretted. In the last few hours,
:03:01. > :03:05.Mr Ramsay has resigned, following what he described as an unwarranted
:03:05. > :03:14.personal attack. He adds that he remains firm that he has done
:03:14. > :03:18.nothing wrong. He intends to clear his name. There may be a reason for
:03:18. > :03:22.strained relations between the Scottish government and some in the
:03:22. > :03:31.further education sector, they are starting to feel the effect of
:03:31. > :03:41.budget cuts, and mergers. There were rate total of 314,585 students
:03:41. > :03:42.
:03:42. > :03:49.studying last year. -- there were a total. There is a greater mix that
:03:49. > :03:54.universities. Some of them are from the most deprived areas of Scotland.
:03:54. > :04:01.Funding for further education is falling, last year the budget was
:04:01. > :04:07.�545 billion. By 2015 it will be �471 million. That is a real terms
:04:07. > :04:15.cut of 24%. Morale is low in the sector, because the Secretary has
:04:15. > :04:20.been stretched by the size of the cuts. It is low because of the
:04:20. > :04:26.regionalisation process. It is low because many deceive the attitude
:04:26. > :04:30.by the government to them, and the way in which the sector is merely
:04:30. > :04:34.perceived as providing workplace training by young people.
:04:34. > :04:44.Historically, the college sector in Scotland has been far wider, and
:04:44. > :04:45.
:04:45. > :04:49.has provided education for personal development, and far wider.
:04:49. > :04:55.theory is that these cuts will affect those who need further
:04:55. > :05:00.education most. 16-19-year-olds. Disproportionate cuts to the sector,
:05:00. > :05:03.which are deeply damaging to students, staff numbers, to the
:05:03. > :05:11.types of courses that are being offered, and sadly, when it comes
:05:11. > :05:16.to teaching budgets, they are being cut to relieve a greater extent. --
:05:16. > :05:24.to an even greater extent. Tonight, the Scottish government says it
:05:24. > :05:27.respect Mr Ramsay's decision to resign. The heart of the row is not
:05:27. > :05:33.just within the substance of the argument, it is a perceived
:05:33. > :05:36.breakdown of trust on both sides at a very trying time for the sector.
:05:36. > :05:46.I'm joined now by Kirk Ramsay, the now-former chair of Stow College in
:05:46. > :05:47.
:05:47. > :05:56.Glasgow. Why did you decide to step down? It was an easy decision,
:05:57. > :06:03.because the minister to go a personal attack against me, -- made
:06:03. > :06:09.a personal attack against me. It made a difficult situation, and
:06:09. > :06:13.they could transfer to my college. Given the passion I have had built
:06:13. > :06:18.colleges for many years, and for the last two years as the chair of
:06:18. > :06:25.a college, I would never create a situation where any danger was
:06:25. > :06:31.placed before the college sector if I can avoid it. You felt your
:06:32. > :06:35.position had become untenable? practical terms, yes. Although the
:06:35. > :06:45.Education Secretary has no power to fire the head of a college, you
:06:45. > :06:48.
:06:48. > :06:53.think it is simply untenable? he has started a campaign, and made
:06:53. > :06:57.sure it finished up in public, without any rational discussion,
:06:57. > :07:04.without any chance for me to respond, you have a very biased and
:07:04. > :07:14.unreasonable position from which people draw conclusions, whether
:07:14. > :07:21.
:07:21. > :07:24.correct on lot. D -- do you believe it? Without a doubt. To be
:07:24. > :07:30.absolutely clear, you feel you have been forced out, and you're not
:07:30. > :07:36.resigning because you feel you have done anything wrong? I have not
:07:36. > :07:42.done anything wrong. Even in the short meeting which took place with
:07:42. > :07:47.the Cabinet Secretary, he acknowledged that. This was last
:07:47. > :07:51.Wednesday evening, the 7th, outside of normal business hours. I had
:07:51. > :07:55.been called to a meeting to discuss a private matter. I had no
:07:55. > :08:02.knowledge of the topic, no knowledge of the minister being
:08:02. > :08:08.there, or any concerns that were there. I arrive to find the
:08:08. > :08:12.minister and three others, and the minister was obviously in an
:08:12. > :08:18.unhappy state, and was reluctant to shake my hand before the meeting
:08:18. > :08:24.started. I realised that something he was not quite right. This
:08:24. > :08:33.meeting, you say three officials from the education department? He
:08:33. > :08:37.said what you in that meeting? said that I had made a recording of
:08:37. > :08:42.him, and I confess that I had to pause and think about it, and
:08:42. > :08:49.realised he had been referring to the meeting in October, where I did
:08:49. > :08:59.use my pen to take notes, and record his speech to review it
:08:59. > :09:00.
:09:00. > :09:07.afterwards. I would have taken action afterwards after reviewing
:09:07. > :09:13.it. The ad say that he wanted you to go? He said if I could remove
:09:13. > :09:22.the chair of a college, I would remove you immediately. Let's go
:09:22. > :09:25.back a few days, what was his meeting for? The meeting took place
:09:25. > :09:32.on the 1st October, it was not a few days before, it was five days
:09:32. > :09:42.before. How many people or at the meeting? It was about 80-have
:09:42. > :09:44.
:09:44. > :09:48.thundered. -- 80-100. It was not a small private conversation? It was
:09:48. > :09:58.not a private group, it was a speech outlining the next steps he
:09:58. > :10:06.believe would -- believed were correct. I believe it was a helpful
:10:06. > :10:14.speech, I said it was one of the most helpful speeches he had made.
:10:15. > :10:24.If there were 80-100 people there, what were you thinking of? Did you
:10:25. > :10:27.
:10:27. > :10:33.feel they might be a problem -- there might be a problem? What we
:10:33. > :10:37.recording with? A smart pen. It is M I depend, a round five times the
:10:37. > :10:46.size of a normal pen, with a display on the top, it is rather
:10:46. > :10:56.conspicuous. It is about half as wide as my mobile phone, it is not
:10:56. > :11:06.
:11:06. > :11:16.exactly an inconspicuous item. it to write on electronic pad?
:11:16. > :11:31.
:11:31. > :11:34.right on a -- 8 rights on electronic pad? It flashes. Mike
:11:34. > :11:44.Russell said it was a private speech, and felt offended because
:11:44. > :11:47.
:11:47. > :11:53.he did not telling you -- you did not tell him you were recording it?
:11:53. > :12:03.It was an open meeting, we had to take back and start acting on the
:12:03. > :12:07.
:12:07. > :12:11.speech. Many people took notes of various types. The room was full of
:12:11. > :12:21.phones, the devices were being used in many different ways. Is it
:12:21. > :12:22.
:12:22. > :12:31.normal to do this? I would do this, I suffer from tinnitus, I would not
:12:31. > :12:41.suffer -- we should a my worst enemy. He makes it difficult for me
:12:41. > :12:43.
:12:43. > :12:53.to here sometimes. Using a smart pain is a big help to me. -- smart
:12:53. > :12:58.
:12:58. > :13:03.pen. Is that what you did with this I did that for my own purposes. It
:13:03. > :13:07.was after words that to when I discussed it, it was clear there
:13:07. > :13:14.were some gaps in interpretation of what had been said. I thought, well,
:13:14. > :13:17.I have got a recording, we were there, there is no inappropriate
:13:17. > :13:21.use of the information, it is simply being used for the purpose
:13:21. > :13:26.the Minister intended his speech to be used for, to have colleges
:13:26. > :13:34.develop strategic plans for the future. He in your view, if the
:13:34. > :13:38.situation is as you describe it, it with a big meeting, I get that this
:13:38. > :13:43.was 8200 people, why do you think Mr Russell was really so annoyed
:13:43. > :13:46.about you making the recording? honestly do not know. The most
:13:46. > :13:50.common complaint I have heard from politicians in the past is that
:13:51. > :13:55.their words do not get used enough. I have never heard of anyone
:13:55. > :14:00.complaining about their words being used again, so why do not
:14:00. > :14:05.understand why it is such a big issue. -- I do not. I can
:14:05. > :14:09.understand him not being entirely delighted that he was unaware that
:14:09. > :14:13.it was taking place, but there is no legitimate problem with it. He
:14:13. > :14:19.said from his own advice that I had not done anything wrong, but he did
:14:19. > :14:25.not like it. He said his advisers said you had not done anything
:14:25. > :14:31.wrong? His legal advice was that I had not done anything out of the
:14:31. > :14:38.law caveat he demanded my resignation. -- law, but he
:14:38. > :14:44.demanded my resignation. Behind all this, and the situation you find
:14:44. > :14:48.yourself saying, there are these allegations that there is a climate
:14:48. > :14:52.of fear developing at the top of the education system, particularly
:14:52. > :14:59.because of the behaviour of the Education Secretary, it is alleged.
:14:59. > :15:03.Is that the true in your review? Yes. There are many people in the
:15:03. > :15:08.education system, the college sector in particular, that are
:15:08. > :15:14.nervous, that would be the easy way to put it, about putting forward
:15:14. > :15:20.their opinions. Why is that? Because the Education Secretary
:15:20. > :15:25.does not take criticism easily. He mentions debate in his piece
:15:25. > :15:29.earlier, the fact is, there has been very little debates,
:15:29. > :15:36.unfortunately. They really should be vigorous debate about the way
:15:36. > :15:40.for word for colleges. Lastly, he would like the Scottish Parliament
:15:40. > :15:45.education committee to do something about this. Yes, I think the
:15:45. > :15:52.Minister in this case has over- reacted grossly. He has in effect
:15:52. > :15:57.created a situation where there is injustice supplied. I thought that
:15:57. > :16:00.this was Scotland in the 21st century, I did not realise it was
:16:00. > :16:05.Syria in the dreaded first century we would expect so much injustice
:16:05. > :16:09.to be applied. So you want an inquiry? I think it needs to be
:16:09. > :16:13.looked at carefully because many areas of the sector have been like
:16:13. > :16:19.this long time, and it seems my situation has crystallised a number
:16:19. > :16:24.of issue that had been there for some time. He wants the education
:16:24. > :16:29.committee to have an inquiry into this case? I think that would be
:16:29. > :16:32.the useful first step to look at this properly. We have to leave it
:16:32. > :16:35.there. Thank you. Nobody from the Government was
:16:35. > :16:37.available to speak to us tonight, but I'm joined from Edinburgh by
:16:37. > :16:43.Stewart Maxwell, the SNP convener of parliament's Education committee
:16:43. > :16:51.and also by Labour's Hugh Henry. He's also in Edinburgh. Stuart, I
:16:51. > :16:54.assume you could hear that, Mr Ramsay says that he would like you
:16:54. > :17:00.Committee to open an investigation into what is happening here. Or
:17:00. > :17:04.will you do that? I think most investigations or inquiries that we
:17:04. > :17:07.undertake, we are in the middle of one at the moment on the decision-
:17:07. > :17:13.making process on when children should be removed from the parental
:17:13. > :17:18.home, an important inquiry, but the purpose is to find out facts that
:17:18. > :17:23.you do not know. The facts in this case are in dispute. Mr Ramsay
:17:24. > :17:29.secretly recorded a meeting. It wasn't a public, open meeting, it
:17:29. > :17:33.was a private meeting with colleges and the Cabinet Secretary, and he
:17:33. > :17:39.used a covert recording device. I know he called it a smart pen, it
:17:39. > :17:45.is actually called a spy pen. The distributor that material and he
:17:45. > :17:52.did not ask for permission Laurenne four and that he was doing it.
:17:53. > :18:02.Trust has broken down. Are you going to have an inquiry or not?
:18:02. > :18:06.The purpose is to find out and eat... He was saying no. We have
:18:06. > :18:13.had the chair of one of the leading colleges telling NASA that he feels
:18:13. > :18:16.that he is being forced out of his job. -- telling us that he feels.
:18:16. > :18:24.The Education Secretary said if I could sack duo are tried, I would
:18:24. > :18:30.do that, had he also said that he had asks his legal advisers if Mr
:18:30. > :18:35.Ramsey had 10 anything wrong and was told he had not. -- I would
:18:35. > :18:41.sack you outright. And your attitude is, move along, nothing to
:18:41. > :18:46.see here?! The point of the inquiry would be to establish facts that
:18:46. > :18:50.are not available. That is not the case here. We have an undisputed
:18:50. > :18:55.set of facts, we know it has happened. Clearly Mr Ramsey as a
:18:55. > :18:59.view on the interpretation of these facts and the Cabinet secretary has
:18:59. > :19:04.a different view. That does not changed the issue that the facts
:19:04. > :19:08.are not in dispute. He used a covert recording device and that
:19:08. > :19:13.was his decision, and as a result of this, a trust has broken down
:19:13. > :19:17.and surprisingly between Mr Ramsey and the Cabinet Secretary. Annie
:19:17. > :19:27.when in a position of any employer or employment would be in exactly
:19:27. > :19:32.the same situation. -- and E one. Hugh Henry, do you think there is
:19:32. > :19:36.anything to see here? I do think there should be an inquiry and I
:19:36. > :19:43.would hope that Stuart Maxwell would stand for Parliament and not
:19:43. > :19:48.the Cabinet Secretary. We have a situation where it would appear
:19:48. > :19:54.that Mr Ramsay has done nothing untoward. He has taken down details
:19:54. > :19:59.of a meeting and shared it with some colleagues and we now have a
:19:59. > :20:03.fit of temper, basically, from the Cabinet Secretary. So I think the
:20:03. > :20:09.Parliament needs to know what the true facts behind all this hard. I
:20:10. > :20:16.think it's a shame that a good man has been forced out by bowling and
:20:16. > :20:21.intimidating behaviour by the Cabinet secretary. -- by a bullying.
:20:21. > :20:24.The Scottish education is the loser. I am not clear what the problem is
:20:24. > :20:29.here. Bowe's people would understand that if this was a
:20:29. > :20:34.meeting of select heads of educational institutions with the
:20:34. > :20:39.Cabinet secretary, maybe half-a- dozen people, it would be untoward
:20:39. > :20:44.to record this meeting were that everyone knowing. -- most people.
:20:44. > :20:48.But a meeting of up to 100 people, that is like saying it is
:20:48. > :20:54.outrageous to record a press conference! That is a ridiculous
:20:54. > :20:59.statement. This was a closed meeting to discuss processes going
:20:59. > :21:04.forward with the college reform agenda. It was not a public meeting
:21:04. > :21:08.and Mr Ramsay secretly recorded it. That is a very important matter
:21:08. > :21:13.that has to be looked at. The smokescreen by the Labour Party is
:21:13. > :21:17.outrageous. Can we ask you as someone that is not in the
:21:18. > :21:21.Government, but presumably supports it, how large a meeting at the
:21:21. > :21:27.citizens of Scotland allowed to be in that involve Government Minister
:21:27. > :21:35.is when they can start recording it? Is at 300, 400? If 100 is not
:21:35. > :21:38.enough, how big must it be? Perhaps you should ask Mr Ramsay. He has
:21:38. > :21:42.reprimanded a member of his own staff at the college for revealing
:21:42. > :21:47.details of a meeting that they had, they did not recorded but they
:21:47. > :21:51.revealed details of a meeting they had attended and they were publicly
:21:51. > :21:56.reprimanded by Mr Ramsey. It is interesting that he takes that view
:21:56. > :22:00.on his staff that cannot reveal a meeting details that he chaired,
:22:00. > :22:05.but he is allowed to see good record using covert devices,
:22:05. > :22:11.meetings with Cabinet Secretary and other colleges. That is not
:22:11. > :22:15.unreasonable, as you Henry? I think Stuart Maxwell is missing the point
:22:15. > :22:20.that grow. This is a government obsessed by secrecy. They had used
:22:20. > :22:26.taxpayers' money to go to court to try and hide facts about legal
:22:26. > :22:30.advise, which actually did not exist. Why is there a cover up?
:22:30. > :22:35.Quiet determination not to allow colleagues of Mr Ramsey to find out
:22:35. > :22:40.what went on at that meeting. What was so bad about what happened at
:22:40. > :22:45.that meeting that it could not be shared with others in further
:22:45. > :22:51.education? This goes beyond this issue. This Cabinet Secretary has
:22:51. > :22:57.forming getting people to resign if they do not agree with them. This
:22:57. > :23:07.is about intimidation, cuts, trying to deny the facts, trying to cover
:23:07. > :23:07.
:23:07. > :23:15.up. You are suddenly increasingly wild inure allegations. You say
:23:15. > :23:20.this is about intimidation. I do not think macro so would deny
:23:20. > :23:27.cutting the budgets, it is the right thing to do if he judges this
:23:27. > :23:31.as Education Minister. -- I do not think Mr Russell would deny. They
:23:31. > :23:39.have tried to deny the facts of cuts in the college budget. They
:23:39. > :23:43.tried to rubbish comments from Ordered Scotland. They have tried
:23:43. > :23:48.to deny the facts. According to them, there is nothing wrong with
:23:48. > :23:53.what is happening in the colleges in Scotland. Why is that so many
:23:53. > :23:59.senior people are afraid to Speakout? That is not have the
:23:59. > :24:03.first Scottish education. It judge be the heart of a robust debate. --
:24:03. > :24:10.healthy for a Scottish education. The education committee receives
:24:10. > :24:15.information and evidence from many people in the further Education
:24:15. > :24:19.sector. We see many people making their views perfectly clear. The
:24:19. > :24:24.idea that there is some sort of secret conspiracy going on is an
:24:24. > :24:27.illusion that only exists with the Labour Party. Mr Ramsay has
:24:27. > :24:31.confirmed tonight that there are senior people that are scared to
:24:31. > :24:35.Speakout. Senior people have contacted me to express concerns
:24:35. > :24:45.that they are scared to put their head above the Power apart, that is
:24:45. > :24:45.
:24:45. > :24:50.not happy. -- parapet. Throughout these people? I have a lot identify
:24:50. > :24:54.these people, they literally fear for their future and the future of
:24:54. > :25:01.their colleges and it would be remiss of me to put them under the
:25:01. > :25:06.limelight. It this is nonsense. This is not nonsense, the education
:25:06. > :25:09.committee receives evidence, very critical of the Government. People
:25:09. > :25:15.seem to be able to provide this evidence to the committee and the
:25:15. > :25:21.media, so I do not recognise the world he is living in. Mr Ramsay
:25:21. > :25:31.has talking about this tonight. Thank you very much. We had to
:25:31. > :25:31.
:25:31. > :25:41.leave it there. Let's look at the A picture of Abu Qatada on the
:25:41. > :25:57.