:00:02. > :00:11.some now deciding to change what they study and others not to go at
:00:12. > :00:16.
:00:16. > :00:21.Tonight on Newsnight Scotland: We investigate Westminster's allegedly
:00:21. > :00:25.criminal cuts to welfare. This is a Dundee food bank doling out some of
:00:25. > :00:28.the basics to some of Scotland's poorest people. The group
:00:28. > :00:31.representing charity say expect more of this. Do the claims stand
:00:31. > :00:37.up to examination? And should campaigners be careful
:00:37. > :00:42.about their language? Is it helpful to say Westminster is criminal and
:00:42. > :00:46.that Alex Salmond lies instinctive as one MSP said today.
:00:46. > :00:50.Good evening. Criminal cuts to welfare that was the accusation
:00:50. > :00:54.fired by Nicola Sturgeon and by the Scottish Council for voluntary
:00:54. > :00:58.organisations, the umbrella group representing charities. But are
:00:58. > :01:02.they right? Welfare is a reserve matter but the Department of Work
:01:02. > :01:05.and Pensions spends almost �14 billion a year in Scotland, a fair
:01:05. > :01:15.sized chunk of the country's kpd. Reevel Alderson examines the
:01:15. > :01:15.
:01:15. > :01:19.proposed cuts and what they might Preparing food parcels, they're
:01:19. > :01:25.vitally needed by people who simply don't have sufficient money to pay
:01:25. > :01:30.for the essentials. Many who come to this food bank in Dundee are on
:01:30. > :01:36.benefits. Volunteer Shauna found herself homeless after a family
:01:36. > :01:42.break down and she was forced to turn to the food bank. When I was
:01:42. > :01:48.moving different places, the food that they gave me was enough to
:01:48. > :01:53.keep me going because with the accommodation I was in I had a
:01:53. > :01:59.service charge taken off my benefit on job seekers. As a result I was
:01:59. > :02:03.left to live off �69 a for the night. Demand for food banks is
:02:03. > :02:08.growing rapidly, partly because of the recession, partly because of
:02:08. > :02:13.changes to benefits. Last year, there was one in Scotland. Now
:02:13. > :02:17.there are 20, seven set up in the last month. We can tell from our
:02:17. > :02:21.data collection system about 60% of those that are referred to food
:02:21. > :02:25.banks have experienced either a benefit delay or cut. Whether it's
:02:25. > :02:31.down to welfare reforms themselves, that's hard to obviously identify.
:02:31. > :02:36.But we do know that a lot of people are experiencing abject poverty on
:02:36. > :02:41.account of changes to benefits. That's something that concerns us.
:02:41. > :02:46.The welfare budget in Scotland is huge. It was just under �14 billion
:02:46. > :02:51.in the last financial year, a figure including old aged pensions.
:02:51. > :02:56.Apart from that Housing Benefit was the largest benefit �1.7 billion.
:02:56. > :03:01.The Government wants to trim that figure. Incapacity benefit, another
:03:01. > :03:11.Government target is worth � 564 million, considerably larger than
:03:11. > :03:15.the �460 million spent on jobseeker's allowance. Paul has
:03:15. > :03:21.studied benefits payments and who receives them. He says cuts will
:03:21. > :03:23.have to be borne by a minority of claimants. The difficulty is that
:03:23. > :03:27.they've been talking, not about cutting the whole welfare budget,
:03:27. > :03:31.which would be difficult enough, but about cutting only part of it.
:03:31. > :03:35.The part they want to cut are to people who are out of work, of
:03:35. > :03:40.working age. Now that's about a third of the benefit system and
:03:40. > :03:47.it's very difficult to see how the level of cuts that the Government
:03:47. > :03:50.wants to take out can possibly come from that group. Charities and
:03:50. > :03:54.voluntary organisations, the third sector, were discussing cuts in
:03:54. > :03:57.Edinburgh today. The deputy First Minister, for one, accepts reform
:03:57. > :04:00.is needed but disagrees with the way it's being carried out.
:04:00. > :04:04.Everybody accepts the welfare system needs to be reformed, but
:04:04. > :04:09.many people are concerned that the Westminster Government is
:04:09. > :04:14.implementing radical cuts in the name of reform and that these cuts
:04:14. > :04:17.will penalised some of the most vulnerable people in society. The
:04:17. > :04:23.voluntary organisations expressing these concerns are organisation
:04:23. > :04:25.that's deal day in daily with many of the most vulnerable people in
:04:25. > :04:35.Scotland. They are very worried about the impact the reforms will
:04:35. > :04:37.
:04:37. > :04:40.have on them. Three quart irz of Scots charities expect demand for
:04:40. > :04:44.their services to increase dramatically in the next year.
:04:44. > :04:50.Stkpwiet these warnings are still gaps in the debate about welfare
:04:50. > :04:54.reform. One of the important gaps has been really consideration of
:04:54. > :04:58.what direction we want benefits to go in. It's helped that we've had a
:04:58. > :05:04.discussion on universal benefits. It's helped that we're talking
:05:04. > :05:09.about many of the issues of medical problems, disability, but at the
:05:09. > :05:13.same time, there's still a fair amount of a debate which seems to
:05:13. > :05:16.miss the target. What happening is that the number of pensioners are
:05:16. > :05:21.increasing. That will drive benefits up. If we're talking about
:05:21. > :05:26.the future of benefits in Scotland, we really need to ask what kind of
:05:26. > :05:32.provision we want to make for older people and how that provision can
:05:32. > :05:37.best be made. The Westminster Government says cuts to the welfare
:05:37. > :05:43.budget will make benefits fairer, more affordable and better able to
:05:43. > :05:48.tackle poverty. I'm joined now by Martin Sime, the
:05:48. > :05:53.chief executive of the Council for voluntary organisations. What do
:05:53. > :05:57.you mean whu call welfare reform criminal? I think we've chosen our
:05:57. > :06:02.language carefully. I hope that your viewers are quite shocked by
:06:02. > :06:06.the report from Dundee that we've got to emergency food parcels
:06:06. > :06:10.because people are not getting properly supported. The cuts are a
:06:10. > :06:15.stkhrib rat assault on some of the poorest people in our country.
:06:15. > :06:21.They're an attack on the human rights of all - Hang on. They're
:06:21. > :06:26.welfare reforms being implemented by a Democratically elected
:06:26. > :06:29.Government. These are cuts and expenditure. There's money taken
:06:29. > :06:33.out of the pockets of our poorest citizens. This is a deliberate
:06:33. > :06:37.policy a Government that has made a choice here. There is no question
:06:37. > :06:41.that this is about us all being in this together. They have decided to
:06:41. > :06:48.spend a lower proportion of their total income on welfare, at
:06:48. > :06:51.precisely the time that more people need help. This is unacceptable.
:06:51. > :06:54.would be somewhat more convincing if it was supported by the evidence
:06:54. > :06:58.in your own report. One of the sections in your report is called
:06:59. > :07:04."what is the single most important issue currently facing
:07:04. > :07:08.organisations?" You list eight responses, which are presumably
:07:08. > :07:12.samples. Only one mentioned welfare reform. That was an advice agency
:07:12. > :07:17.and one can understand that people are coming in saying, I see on the
:07:17. > :07:20.telly all the stuff about welfare reform, what does it mean to me?
:07:20. > :07:25.Some of the advice will be that some won't be affected by it. It
:07:25. > :07:29.hardly goes to the idea that a bunch of criminals are imposing
:07:29. > :07:34.welfare reforms which your own organisations don't seem to see as
:07:34. > :07:38.a problem. 63% of our members say that they will be affected, they
:07:38. > :07:42.will have more demand as a result of... Let's not call them welfare
:07:42. > :07:46.reforms. We are in the mid. Worst recession since the 30s. This is a
:07:46. > :07:51.policy to take more than a proportionate share out of the
:07:51. > :07:56.budget. For example, even your figure that you trumpeted about 81%
:07:56. > :08:02.of organisations expect the financial situation for charities
:08:02. > :08:06.to worsen, it's a highly selective reading of your survey. Actually
:08:07. > :08:13.it's 45% of organisations don't expect their financial situation to
:08:13. > :08:17.worsen. 81 % say the area as a whole will worsen. I'm talking
:08:17. > :08:21.about welfare cuts taking money out of the pockets sts poorest in our
:08:21. > :08:24.country and causing mayhem and distress on an enrmous scale. Our
:08:24. > :08:29.members are trying very hard to pick up the pieces and help people
:08:29. > :08:33.where they can. What we have to remember here is that 80% of these
:08:33. > :08:37.cuts are still to be implemented. If this was a rational reform
:08:37. > :08:40.programme that was well planned and everybody knew how this was going
:08:40. > :08:46.to work, then there may be some case for it. The truth of the
:08:46. > :08:50.matter is that these reforms will cause chaos. They had been poorly
:08:50. > :08:54.thought there. There has not been an impact analysis on people.
:08:54. > :08:58.other side of this is that many people among the public,
:08:59. > :09:03.particularly in a time of economic distress like this, of course,
:09:03. > :09:06.there are people very poor people who suffer from changes in any
:09:06. > :09:10.welfare reforms. But the public are also concerned, people get annoyed
:09:10. > :09:13.that they see people on benefits when they're loseing their jobs, or
:09:13. > :09:18.perhaps when they're having to work even harder and people are doing
:09:18. > :09:23.nothing. It's not unreasonable to try to reform the system. But your
:09:23. > :09:27.own report, I mean you sat here and made a series of wild allegations...
:09:27. > :09:33.These are not wild allegations. They're facts. You haven't backed
:09:33. > :09:38.them up. It is a simple fact. The money is coming out. It's not just
:09:38. > :09:42.people who are unemployed. The in- work poor will be, there are more
:09:42. > :09:46.people in work who will be affected by these cuts than there are who
:09:47. > :09:49.aren't in the work. We all know that unemployment is very high just
:09:49. > :09:53.now. These cuts will affect hundreds of thousands of people.
:09:53. > :09:57.That's not a wild allegation. The Institute of Fiscal Studies
:09:57. > :10:02.produced a report that backed up those figures. These are cuts which
:10:02. > :10:06.will take resources away from our poorest citizens. It will cause
:10:06. > :10:11.people to turn to food banks. I don't know, I'm ashamed to live in
:10:11. > :10:21.a country where we have to collect up food to feed people. I thought
:10:21. > :10:25.In April, most benefits went up by eight fight 0.2%. That will be a
:10:25. > :10:30.real term increase this year. The vast majority of wage earners this
:10:30. > :10:33.you have seen a real-terms cut. Could you explain how giving a
:10:33. > :10:37.real-terms increase in benefits while most wages are being cut is a
:10:37. > :10:42.criminal injustice? If you only have �50 per week to
:10:42. > :10:47.spend and fuel bills got up more than 10%, it is difficult for
:10:47. > :10:51.people to heat their homes... is not the point.
:10:51. > :10:55.It is absolutely clear, nobody is living in benefit of luxury in
:10:55. > :11:00.Scotland. At sorry, you are missing the
:11:00. > :11:03.points -- point... Are there are lots of people in Scotland will
:11:03. > :11:07.oppose this policy. It makes no economic or practical
:11:07. > :11:13.sense, it will cause enormous impact on public services. These
:11:13. > :11:20.cuts cannot be justified under any card. On the fight 0.2%, you're
:11:20. > :11:25.missing the point. People on very low in comes, by 0.2% will not feel
:11:25. > :11:30.like a big increase, but of course working people on pudding comes,
:11:30. > :11:40.sometimes supported by benefit, they have no pay increases like
:11:40. > :11:45.that. -- -- working people on low income so.
:11:45. > :11:48.That is a wild allegation. increasing benefits by the retail
:11:48. > :11:50.price index has been the established protocol for the last
:11:50. > :11:56.20 years. This Government is about to change
:11:56. > :12:01.that so that price increases will not be reflected in benefit
:12:01. > :12:05.increases. It will take further away from poor people in the long
:12:05. > :12:09.term. I am not saying that Bedford Levels are acceptable as they are,
:12:10. > :12:14.but I resist the idea we can cut them even further. Thank you very
:12:14. > :12:18.much. The actor we had just been
:12:19. > :12:25.discussing was based, in part, on a press release from the Scottish --
:12:25. > :12:29.Scottish Council for Voluntary Organisations, which accused the
:12:29. > :12:37.Government of criminal cuts to welfare. Elsewhere, one politician
:12:37. > :12:41.has described a colleague as someone who lies instinctively. As
:12:41. > :12:51.-- are these attempts to have a point back of the you heard or is
:12:51. > :12:53.
:12:53. > :12:57.the very currency of debate being There is no doubt politics is a
:12:57. > :13:01.serious business and disagreements held -- run deep. There is no doubt
:13:01. > :13:07.personal animosity and simple competitive this contributing to
:13:07. > :13:13.the level, volume and style of the debate. But can it go too far?
:13:13. > :13:19.Today, Richard Baker released a press release about Alex Salmond
:13:19. > :13:22.under the headings that he lives instinctively. Earlier, a report
:13:22. > :13:25.warned of an environmental catastrophe of Government targets
:13:25. > :13:28.were missed. The Scottish Council for Voluntary Organisations, as we
:13:28. > :13:33.have seen, described the UK Government welfare policy as
:13:33. > :13:39.criminal. Last weekend, Scottish Labour issued a press release about
:13:39. > :13:43.Scottish Parliament in crisis over the Education Statistics. The SNP
:13:43. > :13:51.said that former fire raiser Lord Watson rejoining Labour was an
:13:51. > :13:55.insult to those whose lines he had endangered. All of these issues are
:13:55. > :13:58.serious, and some may even be justified, but if the first
:13:58. > :14:07.response to anything is to go to extreme language, is that helping
:14:07. > :14:12.to inform and persuade voters? I am joined now by Katy Grant, and
:14:12. > :14:18.from Edinburgh, mint, Simon Pia, political sketch writer and former
:14:18. > :14:22.Labour spin-doctor. A You have just heard Martin Sime,
:14:22. > :14:27.he is clearly passionately holding the views he has and he argues done
:14:27. > :14:30.rather well. Perhaps he would have been better placed not to accuse
:14:30. > :14:34.the Government of being criminals. I think a lot of people have
:14:34. > :14:40.sympathy with Martin, throughout the UK, but he undermines his own
:14:40. > :14:45.argument by describing it as criminal. It is not against the law,
:14:45. > :14:51.and I think you do use will -- you do lose sympathy bring you make
:14:51. > :14:53.your argument in that manner. Also, if the Unionist Party's call Alex
:14:54. > :14:59.Salmond a liar all the time, although he has been found out
:15:00. > :15:05.making things up... But you can say when someone is
:15:05. > :15:09.caught out, Liar, Liar, pants on fire, but to say that Alex Salmond
:15:09. > :15:16.is an instinctive liar, as if he is suffering from a personality defect,
:15:16. > :15:20.is a different matter. I would agree with you. I think the joys of
:15:20. > :15:24.the word instinctive was incorrect, he probably thinks about it. Alex
:15:24. > :15:28.Salmond does that in the chamber a lot, he makes it up as he goes a
:15:28. > :15:34.long, and that has been a criticism dating back to the previous
:15:34. > :15:38.Parliament of him. But I think politicians and advocates like
:15:38. > :15:43.Martin Sime should leave it to people like Katy Grant and myself
:15:43. > :15:45.to use language, and the media... Katy Grant, you would never dream
:15:46. > :15:51.of using language like that, would you?
:15:51. > :15:55.I would not, but politicians are lazy. Cs Lewis said that people use
:15:55. > :16:00.words like appalling and criminal and liar because they are leaving
:16:00. > :16:06.of the reader to make it up for themselves. It is an idle way of
:16:06. > :16:11.making fun of people. It the use hyperbole, the language is
:16:11. > :16:16.exhausted. Completely intemperate language,
:16:16. > :16:19.talking about chaos and mayhem... He is not helping himself. He did
:16:19. > :16:24.make a very powerful argument, let us be fair.
:16:25. > :16:29.At I agree, but by and politicians and people advocating a cos
:16:29. > :16:35.permanently use hyperbole, it loses any kind of meaning. Everything now
:16:35. > :16:40.is a tragedy, it doesn't matter if it is a tsunami, it says a tragedy,
:16:40. > :16:45.if it is three trains being cancelled it is a catastrophe, we
:16:45. > :16:50.have not balance. It is not just a bad language, is it? We were
:16:50. > :16:55.supposed to, if he believed any of our politicians, be entering into a
:16:55. > :17:00.period a boat serious debate on the future of Scotland, very high level
:17:00. > :17:04.stuff. -- a period of serious debate. That is for everyone else,
:17:04. > :17:09.but the politician himself, the one who is speaking, launches into her
:17:09. > :17:15.per bully because he does not know what else to do. -- plunges into
:17:15. > :17:19.hyperbole. We have very poor speakers in this country. They
:17:19. > :17:23.tried to make their point more powerfully, without realising these
:17:23. > :17:28.words wash over the Listener because it is like crying wolf.
:17:28. > :17:31.Where is this meltdown? Where is this catastrophe? Is that what you
:17:31. > :17:36.felt about the lot used to work for?
:17:36. > :17:41.George Orwell famously said a our language famously becomes ugly and
:17:41. > :17:45.inaccurate because our thoughts are foolish. The problem is, Scottish
:17:45. > :17:49.politicians never say anything memorable! I think we were going to
:17:49. > :17:54.insult people are used emotive language, satire and wit are the
:17:54. > :17:59.best weapons to use, and that is why people like Katy Grant or
:17:59. > :18:04.myself or other colonists, politicians should leave it to us.
:18:04. > :18:08.-- other columnists. We are the jesters on the side. If they want
:18:08. > :18:14.to be taken seriously by the public at large, I am concerned about how
:18:14. > :18:21.Scottish society will be polarised over the next two years with the
:18:21. > :18:25.referendum. The language is getting more visible, more abusive, and the
:18:25. > :18:32.reason, rational debate we all want is getting lost. I absolutely, and
:18:32. > :18:38.people turn off, they do not listen. His Simon Pia rate it is up to
:18:38. > :18:44.jesters in the media? Vince Cable, when he came up with his Stalin at
:18:44. > :18:50.remark, that did an endless amount of good. Isis bag someone made that
:18:50. > :18:53.up for him, Simon would know better. -- I suspect. Some of the best
:18:54. > :19:03.remarks had been made by politicians who have made... Boris
:19:03. > :19:07.Johnson is quite good. People remember what he says. Neville
:19:07. > :19:17.Chamberlain, he was a modest man with much to be modest about, but
:19:17. > :19:21.nobody comes up with these kinds of things now. Why have we lost that?
:19:21. > :19:25.I don't know. I think politicians don't read enough, they do not have
:19:25. > :19:31.enough of the hinterland, they never use language apart from to
:19:31. > :19:36.make speeches. Simon Pia, there is an issue, there is this debate on
:19:36. > :19:40.independence that both sides, he used the word visceral, there is an
:19:40. > :19:45.element in Labour Party who believe this is not a normal ardent, the
:19:45. > :19:49.SNP is not a normal political party. There is an element of the SNP who
:19:49. > :19:57.think this is a cause, not a policy and a staked their careers on it.
:19:57. > :20:03.It could get very nasty, couldn't it? Yes, I think it is trending
:20:03. > :20:07.already. The current that has operated below the surface of
:20:07. > :20:10.Scottish politics for the past three years is nasty stuff. Some
:20:10. > :20:15.politicians have been distressed by the stuff flung in their direction,
:20:15. > :20:18.a lot of it through social media. Some people would say they are
:20:18. > :20:23.tearing an opinion, which is fair enough. Do you think it will get
:20:23. > :20:28.worse? Yes, I think it will get worse and I think people will not
:20:28. > :20:33.listen. We will have did leave it there. Thank you very much indeed.
:20:33. > :20:37.Very quickly, tomorrow's front pages, it will rain are locked.
:20:37. > :20:42.Perthshire is braced for another Perthshire is braced for another
:20:42. > :20:48.downpour, a picture with sandbags. And in the Guardian, at the Gaza