:00:12. > :00:17.Tonight on Newsnight Scotland, the evidence suggests people in England
:00:17. > :00:21.are no more sceptical about Europe than people here, so why do
:00:21. > :00:24.politicians in Hollywood squabble about the slightest suggestion that
:00:24. > :00:27.an independent Scotland would not waltz into the European Union while
:00:27. > :00:33.their colleagues in Westminster bash Europe and demand cuts in the
:00:33. > :00:37.Budget? Good evening. As we heard on Newsnight, the question of
:00:37. > :00:41.benefits from EU membership is very much alive and Westminster. It has
:00:41. > :00:44.also been in the news here, but only the narrow point of whether
:00:44. > :00:51.the First Minister have legal advice on Scottish status after
:00:51. > :00:57.independence. Catriona Renton reports.
:00:57. > :01:01.He said we will be in Europe and we will have sterling. The notion that
:01:01. > :01:04.a oil-rich, renewable energy rich Scotland would not be a member of
:01:04. > :01:10.the European Union and one welcomed with open arms is, to my mind,
:01:10. > :01:16.patently absurd. They need to show that all members of the European
:01:16. > :01:20.Union and EU membership had all the necessary... Scotland's 5 million
:01:20. > :01:25.people, having been members of the European Union for 40 years, have
:01:25. > :01:29.rights as European citizens... is a word we have been hearing a
:01:29. > :01:34.lot in the Scottish parliament. In fact, little else has dominated the
:01:34. > :01:38.political agenda over the last couple of weeks. Would an
:01:38. > :01:42.independent Scotland automatically stay in Europe, or would it not?
:01:42. > :01:47.Meanwhile, in the UK government... The remorseless rise of spending in
:01:47. > :01:52.the EU and in particular the European Union... To give away our
:01:52. > :01:59.powers and money to the European Union... This financial framework,
:01:59. > :02:08.the EU budget... A freeze in the European Union budget... It is no
:02:08. > :02:11.good at the European elections... Here, underneath it all, there
:02:11. > :02:16.seems to be a rather more fundamental debate going on about
:02:16. > :02:19.whether the UK wants to be in Europe at all. So first things
:02:19. > :02:24.first, his Scotland really less Euro-sceptic than the rest of the
:02:24. > :02:28.UK? This is what the polls Sables de of the truth is that the views
:02:28. > :02:33.of Scots to Europe are not that different from the rest of the UK.
:02:33. > :02:37.Maybe at the margins, just a little bit less Euro-sceptic, but we're
:02:37. > :02:41.only talking about three percentage points. That therefore means that
:02:41. > :02:45.in Scotland, as in the rest of the UK, the dominant mood is not
:02:45. > :02:50.necessarily one of wanting to get out of the European Union, but it
:02:50. > :02:54.is not one of great enthusiasm for closer integration, and if anything
:02:54. > :02:57.they wish for slightly looser ties. To that extent at least, the mood
:02:57. > :03:04.in Scotland for some considerable time is not that different from the
:03:04. > :03:07.rest of the UK. And then there is the question of the debate in the
:03:07. > :03:11.Scottish parliament, an assumption that Scots would want to be a
:03:11. > :03:14.member of the EU. There is a presumption amongst opposition
:03:14. > :03:18.politicians that because the SNP's vision of an independent Scotland
:03:18. > :03:23.has been within the framework of the European Union, given what that
:03:23. > :03:26.means in terms of ensuring that Scots would still have the same
:03:26. > :03:31.freedom of movement and Access to European markets, if the idea that
:03:31. > :03:34.Scotland were not to be part of the European Union, that would in some
:03:34. > :03:39.way undermine the credibility of the SNP argument. That clearly is
:03:39. > :03:43.the presumption which our opponents are coming from. There is a curious
:03:43. > :03:48.question. It is possible that an independent Scotland could be in
:03:48. > :03:52.Europe and the rest of the UK out of Europe. Clearly, in a sense, if
:03:52. > :03:56.we were to become independent and came with the European Union, and
:03:56. > :03:59.then the rest of the UK wanted to leave the European Union, that
:03:59. > :04:03.frankly would be a problem for Scotland in the same way as for
:04:03. > :04:07.Ireland, because all of a sudden we would have to introduce border
:04:07. > :04:12.controls between Scotland and the rest of the UK. We would no longer
:04:12. > :04:15.have easy access to the UK market etcetera etcetera. Insofar as there
:04:15. > :04:20.is uncertainty about the United Kingdom's membership of the
:04:20. > :04:24.European Union, there are question marks over independence and
:04:24. > :04:27.Scottish future getting bigger, but it is not entirely clear whether
:04:27. > :04:31.voting Yes or No is going to be the better way of ensuring Scotland's
:04:31. > :04:37.continuing membership of the European Union and ensuring the
:04:37. > :04:42.rest of the UK is in it as well. The word Europe is dominating the
:04:42. > :04:51.political debate. Who will be in? Who will be out? Will it affect
:04:51. > :04:57.Well, and joined now by the Labour member of the European Parliament,
:04:57. > :05:01.David Martin, the SNP the SNP -- SNP MSP Annabelle Ewing Edinburgh,
:05:01. > :05:05.and my apologies to Jamie McGrigor, the lie was also hoping to
:05:05. > :05:11.interview from Edinburgh, but we have had a problem with a fire
:05:11. > :05:15.alarm, so I'm afraid Annabelle Ewing is a lot! David Martin, I am
:05:15. > :05:17.curious whether you would support the stance that Labour took
:05:18. > :05:22.yesterday in the House of Commons in voting to cut the European
:05:22. > :05:29.budget. Well, I think firstly the whole debate about the budget has
:05:29. > :05:33.been exaggerated. The EU budget is 1% of GDP, 1.5% of public
:05:33. > :05:38.spending... We know that, but was Ed Miliband right or wrong to do
:05:38. > :05:43.what he did? On the specifics, why worry is that the specifics have
:05:43. > :05:45.been lost, but on the specifics, which is to say that we have to cut
:05:45. > :05:49.expenditure on the Common Agricultural Policy, we have to cut
:05:49. > :05:54.wastage from the EU budget and focus on jobs and growth, he was
:05:54. > :06:04.right. I find it unfortunate that he had to go into the lobby with
:06:04. > :06:13.
:06:13. > :06:22.Tory Euro-sceptics to make that Annabelle Ewing, why do the SNP
:06:22. > :06:29.vote to cut its budget. Good evening. I must say I did not hear
:06:29. > :06:33.the whole of the package because we have been standing outside.
:06:33. > :06:38.Evidence shows that people in Scotland are no less Euro-sceptic
:06:38. > :06:45.than people in Scotland. One your question of the vote in the House
:06:45. > :06:51.of Commons, we supported the cash freeze. In the circumstances we all
:06:51. > :06:58.face at the moment, there was a reasonable position to adopt.
:06:58. > :07:05.McGrigor, which Conservative Party are you in? Did you bash David
:07:05. > :07:15.Cameron or supporting? I am in the Scottish Conservative Party and I
:07:15. > :07:15.
:07:15. > :07:24.think David Cameron is a fine Prime Minister. And? And what? What way
:07:24. > :07:31.would you have voted? Well, people want to send a message from their
:07:31. > :07:36.constituents that enough is enough and everyone has got to buckle down,
:07:36. > :07:46.and that includes Europe and the European Parliament as well, and we
:07:46. > :07:48.
:07:48. > :07:55.have to have a budget that is a little bit more frugal. Your
:07:55. > :08:02.concern... We were stuck outside. Yes, I understand. You don't want
:08:02. > :08:05.Labour to position themselves as being anti-European? Not a tour. If
:08:05. > :08:12.we want to create jobs, I am not just talking about the single
:08:12. > :08:21.market... The pin is, it was a Iraq opportunity by Ed Miliband. It was
:08:21. > :08:26.an opportunity to make a statement about the European budget.
:08:26. > :08:36.British politics is dominated by some sort of Euro-sceptic event to
:08:36. > :08:37.
:08:37. > :08:41.get a vote, your colleagues's boats will be responsible for that.
:08:41. > :08:45.depends whether or not we get a reformed European budget. It
:08:45. > :08:51.depends on how we position ourselves and get our message
:08:51. > :09:01.across. It is about jobs, not just the single market. That only way
:09:01. > :09:11.the European Union and the UK through the European Union...
:09:11. > :09:21.and so to cut you off, but we don't have much time. -- I am sorry to
:09:21. > :09:21.
:09:21. > :09:27.cut you off. Why are the SNP so keen on this? You are better
:09:27. > :09:33.banging on about how bad the fisheries policy is. What do you
:09:33. > :09:38.find attractive about this? For us, we believe it is in Scotland's
:09:38. > :09:43.national interest to be at the heart of the decision-making
:09:43. > :09:51.process in the European Union. That he'd been there is that we need to
:09:51. > :10:01.be at the top table. We need a seat at the top table because at the
:10:01. > :10:03.
:10:03. > :10:09.moment... But you said... But in his about fishing is that the Tory
:10:09. > :10:13.Prime Minister Ted Heath who took us into the European Union stated
:10:13. > :10:16.that Scottish fishing interests were expendable, so I pink that
:10:16. > :10:20.sold to a lot about where Scotland has been on his journey and when it
:10:20. > :10:29.needs to go because we need that seat at the top table to represent
:10:29. > :10:33.our own interests. One of the like Norway? Have your oil fund and be
:10:33. > :10:42.happy ever after? What do you find attractive about the European
:10:42. > :10:52.Union? He is important for Scotland's national interest.
:10:52. > :10:52.
:10:52. > :11:02.makes you think that? You referred to Norway's little oil fund. They
:11:02. > :11:06.
:11:06. > :11:11.own 1% of the global oil equities. There is a clamour among
:11:11. > :11:17.Conservatives in Westminster to have a vote, a referendum on in or
:11:17. > :11:23.out of Europe. Where would you be on that? I think a referendum may
:11:23. > :11:27.come in due course. My view is that I wouldn't rate to stay in Europe
:11:27. > :11:36.because I think that we are better at together in the same way that we
:11:36. > :11:41.are better to be in the United Kingdom. So you would not want a
:11:41. > :11:48.referendum in favour of getting out? Not to talk, unless things
:11:48. > :11:55.have got so bad in Europe it will be in our best interests not to be
:11:55. > :12:05.in. But on balance, we are better to be part of a family of nation
:12:05. > :12:08.
:12:08. > :12:12.states. My apologies to beat three of you and to the viewers. -- the