:00:02. > :00:12.on the US statute books. A rallying point for those who wish to change
:00:12. > :00:15.
:00:15. > :00:18.Tonight on Newsnight Scotland, the lifespan of Scotland's biggest
:00:18. > :00:23.nuclear power station has just been extended. Tomorrow we expect the
:00:23. > :00:29.Chancellor to announce the start of a new rush for gas. What is the
:00:29. > :00:35.policy to keep the lights on? It may have escaped your notice around
:00:35. > :00:38.the Leveson report, but the energy bill was reported last week. The
:00:38. > :00:41.transformation of the electricity market was what it was announced as,
:00:41. > :00:48.and tomorrow if the papers are to be believed, George Osborne will
:00:49. > :00:51.announce plans for up to 30 new gas fired power stations and the
:00:51. > :01:01.lifespan of the Hunterston nuclear power station has been extended
:01:01. > :01:05.
:01:05. > :01:09.Energy - it lights up our world, powers our offices, heat our homes.
:01:09. > :01:15.But the way we get our energy is changing. The purpose in Scotland
:01:15. > :01:21.is now firmly on renewables but nuclear generate at least a third
:01:21. > :01:25.of our electricity. Today it was announced the Hunterston B nuclear
:01:25. > :01:29.power station on the Ayrshire coast will continue to operate until at
:01:29. > :01:34.least 2023. Seven years longer than planned and securing the jobs of
:01:34. > :01:43.around 700 people. Owners EDF Energy have not ruled out a further
:01:43. > :01:47.extension. That means security for jobs for us for the 700 people
:01:47. > :01:51.employed here at Hunterston. It is great news for Hunterston and for
:01:51. > :01:54.the whole of Scotland. environmental campaigners say
:01:54. > :01:58.nuclear-power is not the way forward. A nuclear station is
:01:58. > :02:03.either on or off. Other stations, you can turn up and down to meet
:02:03. > :02:06.the changing demand. One we have lots of renewables and then next,
:02:06. > :02:12.we do not need anything to back them up but while we do, Nuclear is
:02:12. > :02:16.not the best thing at all to do that. The Scottish Government is
:02:16. > :02:24.against New nuclear power stations but it accepts they are needed as a
:02:24. > :02:27.way of maintaining supply in the short term. The challenge is to
:02:27. > :02:35.reduce harmful carbon emissions by maintaining what is known as base
:02:35. > :02:44.load. Renewable energy like wind power still does not produce enough
:02:44. > :02:47.electricity to see us through the energy gap. Come 2020, large power
:02:47. > :02:51.stations firing colt will have to close and Hunterston will be
:02:51. > :03:01.nearing the end of its life so is keeping it open the sensible
:03:01. > :03:08.
:03:08. > :03:14.option? Absolutely, it is already there. These are low carbon which
:03:14. > :03:18.are looking at base load. I am not against any kind of power
:03:18. > :03:26.generation. We will need to get used to the fact that there are
:03:26. > :03:30.some big things that we do like coal or wind, we will have to get
:03:30. > :03:35.used to that we will need a very big next of sources of energy to
:03:35. > :03:42.match the demands we have. Unless we get the right energy mix, the
:03:42. > :03:46.lights could literally go at. Decorations like he -- here in
:03:46. > :03:50.George Square in Glasgow might be turned off, and we might be back to
:03:50. > :03:57.the bad old days of the 1970s. Families used to gather round in
:03:57. > :04:01.the evening and read by candlelight. The target for Scotland is to
:04:01. > :04:05.generate the equivalent of 100% of our electricity demand from
:04:06. > :04:10.renewable sources by 2020. But despite the large installation
:04:10. > :04:14.capacity of wind turbines, the only produce electricity when the wind
:04:14. > :04:22.blows which is why output is intermittent. If you look at
:04:22. > :04:27.countries like Denmark who have gone all out for wind, Denmark now
:04:27. > :04:31.has a very expensive foreign aid programme for Germany because when
:04:31. > :04:36.the wind does not blow in Denmark, it blows in the middle of the night
:04:36. > :04:43.and nobody wants the power then. Germany has got a much bigger
:04:43. > :04:47.demand for energy than Denmark and they will then sell the power. But
:04:47. > :04:51.when you sell power in the middle of the night you sell it at knock-
:04:51. > :04:54.down prices because nobody wants it so what happens in Denmark is the
:04:54. > :05:00.balance of payments is a bit more because when they are desperate for
:05:00. > :05:07.energy, they buy back ironically nuclear generated power from
:05:07. > :05:11.Germany at top price. That is the danger of going down the route that
:05:11. > :05:15.Scotland is pursuing at the moment. We might end up as a foreign aid
:05:15. > :05:20.programme for England. A tomorrow the Government at Westminster is
:05:20. > :05:26.expected to announce a new rush for gas. Gas fired power stations are
:05:26. > :05:29.quick to put up and would offer the hope of cheap energy in the long
:05:29. > :05:34.term. Could we be in an uncomfortable position if we go for
:05:34. > :05:38.this, where would we go for gas? are mainly reliant on Norway at the
:05:38. > :05:48.moment and Iceland. They stand between us and Russia. Not forever,
:05:48. > :05:49.
:05:49. > :05:56.they want. And do we want to get reliant on some of these regimes?
:05:56. > :06:00.Go and ask anyone in Ukraine what it feels like to be to be reliant
:06:01. > :06:05.on your power from Russia. So it could be some time before energy
:06:05. > :06:13.gets off the merry-go-round. I am joined by Stuart Haszeldine,
:06:13. > :06:18.the Scottish Power Professor of Carbon Capture and Storage. And
:06:18. > :06:22.also by Chris Goodall and Andrew Raingold of the Aldersgate Group,
:06:22. > :06:28.an alliance of energy companies and NGOs with an interest in
:06:28. > :06:31.sustainable development. Chris Goodall, most people just feel
:06:31. > :06:37.utterly confused by this. On the one hand, we have got the new
:06:37. > :06:44.energy bill which lots of people including the people who are
:06:44. > :06:48.involved seem to think is a good thing and then a report that George
:06:48. > :06:53.Osborne is about to announce plans for some sort of rush for gas, is
:06:53. > :06:56.this very confusing? A bit the coalition found itself in a
:06:56. > :07:00.difficult position with the Lib Dems in Westminster saying they
:07:00. > :07:04.wanted more renewables and the Conservatives said that is making
:07:04. > :07:10.the price of electricity to expensive, we want gas. We have got
:07:10. > :07:14.now an extremely uncomfortable, compromise between those people and
:07:14. > :07:17.my worry is that because each of these two technologies takes an
:07:17. > :07:21.enormous amounts of capital, that capital is risky, the investors
:07:22. > :07:24.simply will not risk that money until they know exactly what the
:07:24. > :07:27.Government's stance and at the moment, it is completely unclear
:07:27. > :07:34.where the British Government in Westminster stands. That seems to
:07:34. > :07:39.be the problem, Andrew Raingold. It the decision on whether or not to
:07:39. > :07:46.have binding targets on removing the carbon from power stations has
:07:46. > :07:50.been put off until 2016. Is there a danger that those who might invest
:07:50. > :07:54.in power generation, renewable or indeed any other form, will think
:07:54. > :07:59.we cannot be certain what we are getting into? That is absolutely
:07:59. > :08:04.right because businesses have been very vocal and have been calling
:08:04. > :08:08.for 2030 targets which would mean the whole of the UK energy system
:08:08. > :08:12.would be zero carbon. That certainty is vital. These
:08:12. > :08:16.investments are long-term and also they will provide the stability for
:08:16. > :08:22.growth, jobs and competitive advantage in the UK's picture.
:08:22. > :08:25.Without that certainty, investors are retreating from the UK and
:08:25. > :08:32.going to other markets are. But you think there is a serious danger
:08:32. > :08:39.that companies that were considering investing world just
:08:39. > :08:45.decide to pull back? Bat is a very real danger -- that is a very real
:08:45. > :08:49.danger. Companies such as Mitsubishi and Siemens are now
:08:49. > :08:53.investing a huge amount in the UK economy but they say that the
:08:53. > :08:55.political risk is too high and they are worried about that investment
:08:55. > :09:05.and those companies collectively employ thousands of people in the
:09:05. > :09:07.
:09:07. > :09:12.Chris Goodall, there are subsidies for renewal. Something like �7
:09:12. > :09:17.billion by 2020 under the new regime. For an area like Scotland,
:09:17. > :09:23.that has to be good news. No matter the uncertainties, that money for
:09:23. > :09:30.renewables is going to be there. probably will enable the UK to
:09:30. > :09:37.reach 30% renewables by 2020. That time, Scotland's electricity will
:09:38. > :09:43.largely come up from a low carbon sources. The question is, what will
:09:43. > :09:48.the UK do beyond that? It is now clear the Government will licence
:09:48. > :09:52.for a new number of gas plants, starting tomorrow. The incentives
:09:52. > :09:58.for renewable developers to put in billions of pounds into the UK
:09:58. > :10:03.economy may disappear as they feel the Government will make a guess
:10:03. > :10:13.the favourite fuel. A I wonder Chris, is it as straightforward as
:10:13. > :10:19.that? You know -- sorry, Stuart, we now know the subsidy for renewals
:10:19. > :10:23.is there. If you are building a gas power station, they might then said
:10:23. > :10:33.a decarbonising Asian power target which then puts me at a
:10:33. > :10:43.disadvantage? -- decarbonising are natural power target. The Treasury
:10:43. > :10:44.
:10:44. > :10:52.has been clear. It wants to enable gas companies to build plants. We
:10:52. > :10:57.are looking at building one-third, maybe more, of UK electricity
:10:57. > :11:02.generators. What Andrew was saying, we discourage companies renewing --
:11:02. > :11:07.investing in renewables, we might discourage companies investing in
:11:07. > :11:13.gas? Gas might turn out to be the fuel that sets the price a village
:11:13. > :11:17.a city. It is cold generation that has so far. -- that sets the price
:11:17. > :11:23.of electricity. Gas is that two of choice the Treasury has pitched for.
:11:23. > :11:29.We have talked about the levy cap of �7 billion. When you do the
:11:29. > :11:36.maths, for funding, these guys are right this is stretched to build a
:11:36. > :11:42.new wind power onshore and offshore, to build new nuclear and carbon
:11:42. > :11:47.Storage. For some people are going to be disappointed. Chris, the
:11:47. > :11:51.Scottish government's policy is against new nuclear power stations.
:11:51. > :11:55.I wonder if the British Government is getting in by the back door. If
:11:55. > :12:00.you take this �7 billion, which includes nuclear, because it is
:12:00. > :12:04.seen as renewable, there is not going to be any nuclear built by
:12:05. > :12:14.2020, they will not get any subsidy, will they? A I do not think it
:12:14. > :12:20.should in clued nuclear. Is that not their proposal? There will be
:12:20. > :12:27.bills passed next year and that will be the way in which nuclear is
:12:27. > :12:31.subsidised in England and Wales. But the �7 billion is already there.
:12:31. > :12:36.We as consumers are going to pay for that. If nuclear thing comes
:12:36. > :12:41.along on top of that, and we have to pay for that again, is that
:12:41. > :12:47.politically feasible? Electricity prices are going to rise. It is
:12:47. > :12:51.possible we will see prices 50% higher than at the moment by 2020.
:12:51. > :12:55.I think that is a reasonable assumption. It is really
:12:55. > :12:59.unfortunate. The Government's policies include explicit targets
:12:59. > :13:05.on energy efficiency, electrical energy efficiency. That is an
:13:05. > :13:09.important new move that was introduced last week. Do you think,
:13:09. > :13:19.Andrew, what is your judgment on the status of this supposedly plan
:13:19. > :13:20.
:13:20. > :13:26.to have nuclear plants in England? It does not seem to be going
:13:26. > :13:30.anywhere fast. We need are a diverse energy mix. The Government
:13:30. > :13:37.have decided nuclear should play a part in a. We need more clarity
:13:37. > :13:43.overall in terms of the Energy Bill. -- played a part in that. The D
:13:43. > :13:48.Carr Organisation target is vital. That would not only encourage
:13:48. > :13:56.interest in renewables, it would drive growth. -- the decolonisation
:13:56. > :14:02.target. His it is not good news for -- it is not good news for
:14:02. > :14:08.everybody. Not everyone will benefit from 7 billion. That does
:14:08. > :14:12.include new nuclear and Wim power and carbon capture and storage.
:14:12. > :14:17.wind power. What the governments have failed to do is invest. We are
:14:17. > :14:21.seeing a developing train crash of UK policy so running for gas is the
:14:21. > :14:25.only thing we can do up and building new nuclear is technically
:14:25. > :14:29.possible but if we look at the track record of what is happening
:14:29. > :14:34.in Finland and France, those new reactors which we are trying to buy
:14:34. > :14:39.are coming in at three times the price and double the time. It is
:14:39. > :14:44.very unlikely we will have any significant electricity from that
:14:44. > :14:51.point. The electricity will be at the same price as offshore wind or
:14:51. > :14:55.more expensive. If should we take a more relaxed view about this?
:14:55. > :15:00.was not that long ago we were told about the energy gap, the lights
:15:00. > :15:04.would go off in 2015 and then you see, by the writing the rules on
:15:04. > :15:10.how to run Hinckley Point and Hunterston, been the cause of the
:15:10. > :15:18.day, Britain's imminent problems seemed to disappear. -- in the
:15:18. > :15:24.course of a day. We can extend the life of all existing nuclear power
:15:24. > :15:28.stations but this is not a joke. This is a desperate crisis. We are
:15:28. > :15:32.completely missing the opportunity to decarbonising the electricity
:15:32. > :15:37.supply to get a modern electricity infrastructure. No-one knows what
:15:38. > :15:43.to do and everyone is worried about the cost of fuel on human comfort.
:15:43. > :15:49.The fact is, at some stage, the UK and Scotland has got to make
:15:49. > :15:56.decisions to move out of fossil fuels and I think it is an awful
:15:56. > :16:06.pity we are moving backwards at the moment. The Andrew, what do you
:16:06. > :16:14.make of this alleged run for gas? It could peak an expensive option.
:16:14. > :16:20.We do not know what will happen to gas prices. It has been said that
:16:20. > :16:30.could be more expensive than a low carbon energy option. There was an
:16:30. > :16:31.
:16:31. > :16:34.interesting report that compared gas with a run for offshore wind in
:16:34. > :16:38.the 2020 and the report found the offshore wind scenario have
:16:38. > :16:48.provided �20 billion extra for the UK economy and 70,000 extra jobs.
:16:48. > :16:55.
:16:55. > :17:00.It is not as simple as two options. There is a diverse mix.
:17:00. > :17:05.Scottish government has staked everything on renewable energy. It
:17:05. > :17:10.will be industrial Scotland, allegedly. What we are saying is
:17:10. > :17:14.not necessarily bad for that strategy. No. It may be the
:17:14. > :17:19.Scottish government, because it has said things with greater firmness
:17:19. > :17:26.than Westminster, will be able to get the increase in renewables that
:17:26. > :17:31.it projects. I think it is quite possible. Scotland has always said
:17:31. > :17:36.resources of Marine Energy are not matched anywhere in the world. I
:17:36. > :17:40.hope the Scottish government continues to do the research and
:17:40. > :17:46.development necessary to get those energy sources up and running. Is
:17:46. > :17:50.that your take as well, Andrew? Absolutely. There is a golden
:17:50. > :17:56.opportunity for growth and jobs in the industries of the future. There
:17:56. > :18:02.is a huge global market here, over 3.3 trillion pounds, investing in
:18:02. > :18:08.low carbon technologies. Scotland can export to global markets.
:18:08. > :18:18.you to you all. The from pages tomorrow. The Herald. It is about
:18:18. > :18:24.
:18:24. > :18:30.At the Scottish Daily Mail. That is the royal story. There will be many