:00:10. > :00:12.decision, the better for Syria. Tonight on Newsnight Scotland, the
:00:12. > :00:16.controversy continues over the status of an independent Scotland
:00:16. > :00:19.in the EU. And, we'll speak to the editor of Scotland's biggest
:00:19. > :00:25.selling paper, The Scottish Sun, about Leveson and possibility of
:00:25. > :00:29.different press regulation north and south of the border.
:00:29. > :00:32.Good evening. How has a letter is that is yet to be sent caused such
:00:32. > :00:35.ructions? The letter is from the European Commssion to a Lords'
:00:35. > :00:38.committee and is thought to say that if Scotland votes for
:00:38. > :00:40.independence it would have to reapply for EU membership. This is
:00:40. > :00:50.yet another staging post in the long-running debate over an
:00:50. > :00:56.
:00:56. > :01:03.independent Scotland's place in the It is a subject which probably
:01:03. > :01:06.excites a few outside the political bubble, but a could be a vital
:01:07. > :01:16.debate over independence. Will an independent Scotland have to
:01:17. > :01:17.
:01:17. > :01:21.reapply to join the European Union? The debate is a hard one, nobody
:01:21. > :01:25.believes that Scotland would not be welcome, but it is rather the terms
:01:25. > :01:33.they would be admitted on. That seems like something for the
:01:33. > :01:38.anoraks, but it could have a real impact on everyday life. The debate
:01:38. > :01:41.has resurfaced after this newspaper report. They claimed that the
:01:41. > :01:46.European Commission had confirmed to weigh House of loads committee
:01:46. > :01:51.that an independent Scotland would have to reapply for membership. It
:01:51. > :01:58.turns out that latter has been written, but not cent. The first
:01:58. > :02:04.minister is angry. Scottish people want to know where that came from.
:02:04. > :02:10.Were they duped by anti- independence people. Was the
:02:10. > :02:19.commission at fault? We know that that story is not correct. It is of
:02:19. > :02:22.interest. There will be a lot of scaremongering to come. The BBC's
:02:22. > :02:25.Europe Editor has spoken to officials at the European
:02:25. > :02:31.Commission. The Commission is making it absolutely clear that
:02:31. > :02:35.Scotland would have to reapply for membership. There would be a
:02:35. > :02:41.negotiation, but that would only come after it became clear what the
:02:41. > :02:45.relationship between Edinburgh and London was. If Scotland had to
:02:45. > :02:50.reapply, the terms may be very different. Some Unionists claimed
:02:50. > :02:56.that could mean that Scotland may have to join the euro, even if the
:02:56. > :03:06.UK cat the pound. Maybe even border controls at Redknapp, as the UK
:03:06. > :03:14.
:03:14. > :03:21.would not be signed up. -- Gretna. Scotland would have to apply for
:03:21. > :03:25.membership, and we need a cod terms and conditions. The SNP's position
:03:25. > :03:32.is that an independent Scotland would be negotiating its terms from
:03:32. > :03:37.within the EU. They could be -- they could be talks over things
:03:37. > :03:45.like how many MEPs Scollan we have. There would be no suggestions of
:03:45. > :03:51.border posts. A have you clarify the position? I think it has been
:03:51. > :03:55.clarified. The first minister had to make a statement clarifying
:03:55. > :03:59.whether the Scottish government had sought legal advice from the EU
:03:59. > :04:06.over the issue. Some claim the whole debate over independents
:04:06. > :04:09.risks becoming a series of assertions, reassuring noises from
:04:09. > :04:17.nationalists, worst-case scenarios from Unionists. What is missing is
:04:17. > :04:20.hard fact that everyone can accept. There is another factor in the
:04:20. > :04:25.debate, the European Commission will not be commenting on
:04:25. > :04:33.Scotland's situation, it will only explain in general terms as what
:04:33. > :04:41.could -- what could happen. This could apply to Catalonia, where the
:04:41. > :04:51.political situation is different to Scotland. Whatever the theoretical
:04:51. > :04:55.position, much would no doubt depend on the political reality,
:04:55. > :04:58.especially the relationship between Edinburgh and London. If it was an
:04:58. > :05:01.acrimonious or divorce, Brussels would not want to be seen as the
:05:01. > :05:04.bad guy. I'm joined now from Edinburgh by
:05:04. > :05:09.Lord Foulkes of Cumnock - that's the former Labour MP and MSP George
:05:09. > :05:18.Foulkes to you. And by the SNP MEP Alyn Smith who is dressed as a
:05:18. > :05:25.penguin because he has come straight from an awards ceremony.
:05:25. > :05:29.thought he was going to turn up in his traditional Scottish! I am
:05:29. > :05:37.coming straight from an awards ceremony. It is great to see the
:05:37. > :05:44.industry doing well. You could have raised the tone! Some people
:05:44. > :05:53.believe we sit in the chamber in them all the time. I wore it when I
:05:53. > :05:58.was introduced, I can't remember if I have warned that much since then.
:05:58. > :06:03.Your letter, which you are expected to get, what is the status of it?
:06:03. > :06:13.am not expecting to get any letter, because I am not on the economic
:06:13. > :06:15.
:06:15. > :06:25.affairs committee. The economic affairs committee has Britain to
:06:25. > :06:26.
:06:26. > :06:32.one man -- written to Barroso, I understand that that has gone
:06:32. > :06:42.through. Have you know what the latter says? Because I read the
:06:42. > :06:43.
:06:43. > :06:50.papers. You are saying you got it from the House of Lords, and they
:06:50. > :06:56.did not get it. When I was in Brussels yesterday, I had a
:06:56. > :07:01.briefing, and informal off the record briefing, and they confirmed
:07:01. > :07:06.what the British government have confirmed, in the very unlikely
:07:06. > :07:11.event of a Yes vote, what would happen, they would be negotiations,
:07:11. > :07:17.Scotland would be part of the United Kingdom until there was a
:07:17. > :07:23.deal for separation, and there would be legislation to create a
:07:23. > :07:27.separate state in Parliament, and Scotland will become a separate
:07:27. > :07:32.state, and they will have to apply for membership. They will be
:07:32. > :07:41.entitled to a member of a council, a commissioner, all the existing
:07:41. > :07:47.members have to consider whether they want that to happen. It is not
:07:48. > :07:55.just George Foulkes saying this, the Scotsman tomorrow says that
:07:55. > :08:02.David Martin has written to Barroso, and asks him if he stands by the
:08:02. > :08:09.comments which he made before, and Barroso has replied saying, yes he
:08:09. > :08:15.does. Why not just accept that, rather than trying to claim that
:08:15. > :08:24.the position is different? This is where we are. We are here because
:08:24. > :08:30.of a story that has not really happened, the latter has not been
:08:30. > :08:37.sent. I had said before this programme, the treaties are silent,
:08:37. > :08:45.there is no way for us to leave. He is right, we have a boat, the day
:08:45. > :08:55.after the boat, negotiations start with London and Edinburgh. -- we
:08:55. > :08:58.
:08:58. > :09:02.have a vote, the day after the vote. They will take due notice of the
:09:02. > :09:09.discussions, they run parallel, and then an independent state takes
:09:09. > :09:14.place within the EU and the UK. That does not square with what
:09:14. > :09:19.Barroso has said about Scotland having to reapply. What you say is
:09:19. > :09:25.not the same thing? This is where different words are being used in
:09:25. > :09:35.different ways by different people, it is like the Brady Doogue of
:09:35. > :09:42.Scottish politics. We're part of the EU territory, we are hosting
:09:42. > :09:52.students from the EU, that takes place concurrently with the UK
:09:52. > :09:52.
:09:52. > :09:57.negotiations. The importance of the Edinburgh agreement has been missed.
:09:57. > :10:00.A negotiated outcome will be respected, and the commission will
:10:00. > :10:05.do exactly what the commission always does, which is take a
:10:05. > :10:09.pragmatic approach, saying, we don't want to lose you, you want to
:10:09. > :10:17.stay, in exactly the same way as East German reunification was
:10:17. > :10:24.impossible, but their way was found. -- but a way was found. That sounds
:10:24. > :10:34.pretty reasonable, what do you think is wrong with that analysis?
:10:34. > :10:34.
:10:34. > :10:38.He is right, until the last thing. Once it is a separate state, it is
:10:38. > :10:42.something of that is entitled to its own council member, its own
:10:42. > :10:48.commissioner, and it has to apply. It is up to the existing members,
:10:48. > :10:55.and the United Kingdom will be one of those members, to decide the
:10:55. > :10:59.terms, and the terms in which they will join. Alex Salmond is to -- is
:10:59. > :11:09.deliberately trying to make this into an issue of some uncertainty.
:11:09. > :11:13.He pretended to have legal advice. Let's forget about that. I want to
:11:13. > :11:17.try and pin this down. You are saying that you agree with Alan
:11:17. > :11:24.Smith, but the distinction between the two of you is that you say no
:11:24. > :11:32.matter what the result is, at some point, once Scollan became
:11:33. > :11:42.independent, they will have to reapply. -- won Scotland. Why is
:11:43. > :11:45.
:11:45. > :11:50.that wrong? The significance of the Edinburgh agreement, we have a
:11:50. > :11:56.watertight agreement, that gives us a process. There is nothing in that
:11:56. > :12:04.which says that the European Union has to follow. That lays down part
:12:04. > :12:10.of it. There is nothing in it which says Scotland would not have to
:12:10. > :12:17.reapply for membership of the you? In does commit both governments
:12:17. > :12:24.into implementing the Willoughby Scottish people. It will be an
:12:24. > :12:31.aspiring member states, the European Commission will run
:12:31. > :12:35.negotiations concurrently. That is not the way things will work. The
:12:35. > :12:41.Commission has always loved that this stuff with the real politics,
:12:41. > :12:48.they they want to leave us, we don't want to leave -- they don't
:12:48. > :12:53.want to lose us, we don't want to live. This is one of Alex Salmon's
:12:53. > :12:57.ploys. He wants to make the people of Scotland believe that the we
:12:57. > :13:01.separate, nothing will change. We will still be part of the European
:13:01. > :13:11.Union, we will still have the Queen, all of that kind of thing. That is
:13:11. > :13:12.
:13:12. > :13:18.to try and comfort people. The yes campaign is falling apart. I want
:13:18. > :13:28.to pin this down, what difference does it make whether you are right
:13:28. > :13:29.
:13:29. > :13:32.or Alan Smith is right? Clearly if Scotland is in or out, they can't
:13:32. > :13:38.say they're not going to have common fishing policies, but where
:13:38. > :13:42.is the difference between what you are saying? There is a crucial
:13:42. > :13:52.difference, a new member is applying, it has to be agreed by
:13:52. > :13:53.
:13:53. > :14:02.the council, and any one state could beat them it. -- could veto.
:14:02. > :14:07.Spain could be -- beat the Met, because they don't want to lose
:14:07. > :14:17.Catalonia. There has been talk of Cyprus doing this as well. Clearly
:14:17. > :14:18.
:14:18. > :14:22.the Spanish government would not be keen on this. We would not set a
:14:22. > :14:25.precedent, international law is clear. There is no precedent, the
:14:25. > :14:35.Spanish Foreign Minister has made very clear that this is not a
:14:35. > :14:44.
:14:44. > :14:46.Now from political discord to cross-party consensus. The party
:14:46. > :14:49.leaders at Holyrood met today to discuss the Scottish response to
:14:49. > :14:53.Lord Justice Leveson's report. They may not be in total concord, but
:14:53. > :14:59.they did at least agreed to set up an expert group to study how the
:14:59. > :15:06.recommendations of the Leveson report might apply in Scotland. One
:15:06. > :15:09.report, one problem and two responses. This week the Prime
:15:09. > :15:14.Minister met with newspaper editors and asked them to come up with a
:15:14. > :15:21.plan for regulation which would not require legislation. He asked civil
:15:21. > :15:26.servants to draft a lob based on the Leveson report. They fear -- if
:15:26. > :15:30.they fail to come up with a plan to satisfy the government, statutory
:15:30. > :15:35.legislation might be imposed. The First Minister has already said
:15:35. > :15:39.here that he is inclined to legislate along the Irish model.
:15:39. > :15:43.Today's meeting agreed to have someone else to do think about it
:15:43. > :15:48.on their behalf. The Tories will decide whether to support the
:15:48. > :15:54.proposals within the next 24 hours. These are people who will tell us
:15:54. > :15:58.how we can implement Leveson's central suggestion of us that
:15:58. > :16:04.Chitty underpinning of the self- regulatory Press. Leveson is an
:16:04. > :16:07.English judge and he says himself, this might not be applicable to
:16:07. > :16:13.Scotland. We need experts to tell us how we would do it in Scotland
:16:13. > :16:17.if we decide to go way ahead with it. The expert group will be led by
:16:17. > :16:22.a current or former judge and all parties who signed up to it will be
:16:22. > :16:26.able to suggest who they would like to hear analysis from.
:16:26. > :16:32.preference is for a UK wide body. The case of a separate Scottish
:16:32. > :16:35.body has not been made. A lot of people will be worried that
:16:35. > :16:41.something could be circumvented if there is a different regime in the
:16:41. > :16:46.rest of the United Kingdom. We have to respond to the victims. We feel
:16:46. > :16:52.that the press was out of control. We need to reassure everyone that
:16:52. > :16:56.freedom of speech and freedom of the press is not under threat.
:16:56. > :17:02.opposition may back a UK wide solution, but ultimately it is up
:17:02. > :17:06.to the Scottish government. If Alex Salmond gets his way, newspapers
:17:07. > :17:11.may be subject to different rules north and south of the border. One
:17:11. > :17:17.suggestion is for a Press Council to cover the whole of the UK but
:17:17. > :17:19.with statutory backing in Scotland. I am joined now by Andy Harries,
:17:19. > :17:24.who is the editor of Scotland's biggest selling paper - the
:17:24. > :17:29.Scottish Sun. I presume you agree with the
:17:29. > :17:39.Murdoch newspapers in London, that there should be no statutory body?
:17:39. > :17:42.Absolutely, my dear is we could end up with a two-speed system. I think
:17:42. > :17:48.that would be a worrying development for the presence
:17:48. > :17:54.Scotland. What is your argument? The News of the World committed
:17:55. > :17:59.some of the worst things which were investigated. Have you got a bit of
:17:59. > :18:04.a nerve to then say we do not want statutory legislation but continue
:18:04. > :18:10.as we did before? I think the Leveson report was critical of many
:18:10. > :18:15.newspapers. The speed with which different newspapers, like the
:18:15. > :18:20.Guardian, the Sun and the Daily Mail this week, have moved to
:18:20. > :18:27.support 40 of the recommendations shows a willingness to react to
:18:27. > :18:31.this very critical report. Critically, if we end up in a
:18:31. > :18:35.legislated position, that is what would be most worrying in the
:18:35. > :18:45.situation. I fear that Alex Salmond's headlong rush for
:18:45. > :18:46.
:18:46. > :18:53.statutory underpinning, you either believe NFT press or you do not.
:18:53. > :18:58.Their argument is that in the Irish system or in the system that Lord
:18:58. > :19:04.Leveson is arguing for, you do not have any statutory control, it just
:19:04. > :19:09.becomes an issue if you have a Press Council and you're not a
:19:09. > :19:14.member of it, and you take part in defamation proceedings, it can be
:19:14. > :19:19.held against you in court. Why do you object to that? The Irish model
:19:19. > :19:25.was set up before there was any statutory underpinning. A therefore
:19:25. > :19:31.why would you object to that? As far as I understand, the son is a
:19:31. > :19:38.member of the press incarnates Commission here and in Ireland. --
:19:38. > :19:42.Press Complaints Commission. Whether this is a piece of
:19:42. > :19:46.legislation which forms a body or says this body gets Reds --
:19:46. > :19:55.recognise, the minutes that is on the statute books it is a slippery
:19:55. > :20:02.slope. If we move to this situation where we have a long lack, it is
:20:02. > :20:07.easy for a parliament to go back. - - along mac. If they were not
:20:07. > :20:11.getting the press they wanted, they could end up with the situation
:20:11. > :20:19.were Parliament says we do not like what they're doing, let us make a
:20:19. > :20:23.stronger, let has increased the fines. Once you have it in statute,
:20:23. > :20:30.it is a slippery slope. I their practical problems? One thing
:20:30. > :20:33.suggested tonight is that we might end up with the system weather is
:20:34. > :20:40.one Press Complaints Commission to replace existing one, which is
:20:40. > :20:46.backed by statute in Scotland but not in England. Is that viable?
:20:46. > :20:50.cannot see how that would work in practical terms. So many papers in
:20:50. > :20:56.England produced editions here and the Scottish papers produced
:20:56. > :21:03.editions which are published in England. You could imagine the
:21:03. > :21:07.system, where in Scotland's the membership of the Press Council are
:21:07. > :21:17.whatever it is called, would be recognised by the courts as we have
:21:17. > :21:22.discussed, even although that was not the case in England? I do not
:21:22. > :21:26.see... If it presses moving quickly in Fleet Street to trying implement
:21:26. > :21:35.as much as Leveson as possible without a statutory composition of
:21:35. > :21:40.the body, I cannot see the necessity for having it in Scotland.
:21:40. > :21:45.It had Scottish representation on the council and the call committee.
:21:45. > :21:50.If we could come up with a body which satisfied Westminster, why
:21:50. > :21:55.should we need a separate one in Scotland? But it is about politics.
:21:55. > :22:01.The SNP want a legislative body. Labour do not want a separate
:22:01. > :22:06.system in Scotland but they do back statutory controls across the UK
:22:06. > :22:11.and so do the Liberal Democrats. If you look at Holyrood, they could
:22:11. > :22:18.easily come up with the compromise, whatever was, you would not want it
:22:18. > :22:22.to? Well there is only been at one weeks since the publication of the
:22:22. > :22:26.report. We are moved quickly since then and I think we need to take
:22:26. > :22:33.more time about things. We need to leave it there.
:22:33. > :22:40.A quick look at their front pages. The EU chief confirms the position
:22:40. > :22:45.on states should be split. The Daily Mail says business chiefs
:22:45. > :22:50.fear the break-up of Britain. They Herald says the Kirk is under
:22:50. > :23:00.fire as court officers disrupt prayers. -- they Herald.
:23:00. > :23:02.
:23:02. > :23:04.That's it for now. Goodbye. Good evening. It will be a cold
:23:04. > :23:09.Good evening. It will be a cold start to the day with some frost
:23:09. > :23:15.and icy patches around. There will be some rain and snow as well in
:23:15. > :23:20.East Anglia and the far south-east. His days a for Scotland and eastern
:23:21. > :23:29.England. There will be a scattering of showers throughout the day. --
:23:30. > :23:33.its dazed and grey. It will feel cold out there. Some sunshine for
:23:33. > :23:43.work eastern counties and in the south-west. With that bees from the
:23:43. > :23:44.
:23:44. > :23:47.north, it will feel cold despite the sunshine. -- that these. It
:23:47. > :23:51.should be a drier afternoon in Northern Ireland. Plenty of
:23:51. > :23:56.sunshine. Feeling cold in the breeze. Sunshine for the West of
:23:56. > :24:02.Scotland but it will be chilly. Thicker cloud in the north-east of
:24:02. > :24:07.Scotland. Wintry showers over the hills. The northern half of the UK
:24:07. > :24:12.will see a fair amount of cloud with rain crossing Scotland.
:24:12. > :24:16.Further south, after a cold start to Saturday, there will be a lot of