0:00:09 > 0:00:12opposed, I am here -- it would be Tonight on Newsnight Scotland, the
0:00:12 > 0:00:17day after the European Commission President Manuel Barroso says
0:00:17 > 0:00:21Scotland would have to apply for membership, Scotland's Finance
0:00:21 > 0:00:25Secretary tells him that he is wrong. Does John Swinney have a
0:00:25 > 0:00:28point? Everyone here seems to agree there would have to be negotiations
0:00:28 > 0:00:32for an independent Scotland to be part of the Union but what would
0:00:32 > 0:00:36they be about exactly? Good evening. Independence in
0:00:36 > 0:00:41Europe was more than a just a slogan for the SNP, it was a
0:00:41 > 0:00:45flagship policy designed to show sceptical electorate that the party
0:00:45 > 0:00:49had a vision of a modern state fulfilling its international
0:00:49 > 0:00:54obligations. Ironic that it is the policy providing its opponents with
0:00:54 > 0:01:04a large stick to hit it with. The Finance Secretary today came to
0:01:04 > 0:01:07
0:01:07 > 0:01:17explain the Scottish Government's position on EU membership.
0:01:17 > 0:01:17
0:01:17 > 0:01:21Yes, there is still no harmony on Europe. In the last episode, the
0:01:21 > 0:01:25President of the European Commission said that if any part of
0:01:25 > 0:01:28any member country became independent they would need to
0:01:28 > 0:01:32reapply to join the European Union. He was not talking specifically
0:01:32 > 0:01:39about Scotland but a few people here were rather interested in his
0:01:39 > 0:01:46BBC interview. If one part of a country, I am not referring to any
0:01:46 > 0:01:49specific one, if it wants to become an independent state, of course, as
0:01:49 > 0:01:55an independent state, it has to apply for European membership
0:01:55 > 0:01:59according to the rules. That is obvious. President Barroso made
0:01:59 > 0:02:03similar comments in a letter to a House of Lords committee
0:02:03 > 0:02:06investigating the impact of Scottish independence. Welcome the
0:02:06 > 0:02:13economic affairs committee. And in an appearance that had been
0:02:13 > 0:02:16scheduled for some time, 20 John Swinney was before the committee
0:02:16 > 0:02:23today. When I looked at President Barroso's letter to the committee,
0:02:24 > 0:02:29it struck me that when he is referring to the question of a
0:02:29 > 0:02:34country applying to be a member of the EU, he is very specific that it
0:02:34 > 0:02:40is under Article 49 of the treaty under European Union. When
0:02:40 > 0:02:45President Barroso makes the remark he makes about their part of a
0:02:45 > 0:02:50country ceasing to be part of the territory, there is no treaty
0:02:50 > 0:02:57reference to the remark. I think that is very significant because on
0:02:57 > 0:02:59my reading of the treaty position and I was struck just in preparing
0:02:59 > 0:03:04for the Committee on re-reading some of the advice that was
0:03:04 > 0:03:11produced by the House of Commons library about 12 months ago... They
0:03:11 > 0:03:16make the point in that document that there is no provision within
0:03:16 > 0:03:24the treaty on European Union that provides for the scenario that
0:03:24 > 0:03:29President Barroso has cited in that particular paragraph of his letter.
0:03:29 > 0:03:32This really does seem a rather bizarre. On the one hand, we have a
0:03:32 > 0:03:37considered letter from the president of the European Community
0:03:37 > 0:03:40will after all is the person who will decide with the legal
0:03:40 > 0:03:45structure whether Scotland after independence if it came about was a
0:03:45 > 0:03:48member... On the other hand, you have the feel of the government and
0:03:48 > 0:03:52the Minister that has now admitted that it did not take legal advice
0:03:52 > 0:03:56on whether it would remain a member of the Union and is only belatedly
0:03:56 > 0:04:01doing so. You are saying, or we will still be members. And you are
0:04:01 > 0:04:09not paying any attention to President Barroso's advice. Can
0:04:09 > 0:04:13that position beside St for a second? -- be sustained? Yes. There
0:04:13 > 0:04:21is no foundation in the treaty for the comment that President Barroso
0:04:21 > 0:04:24has made in the letter. Can I just ask, how do you see... Your line
0:04:24 > 0:04:28appears to be that President Barroso does not know what he is
0:04:28 > 0:04:33talking about on this matter and he is wrong when he says that if
0:04:33 > 0:04:38Scotland leaves the UK it also Lucy you. If the voters going to take
0:04:38 > 0:04:42place in 2014 -- it also leaves the EU... How will you established
0:04:42 > 0:04:46before then exactly what the position is. Will you take a legal
0:04:46 > 0:04:51challenge? How or you establish what the facts are so that people
0:04:51 > 0:04:56when they cast their vote know what the position will be? The approach
0:04:57 > 0:05:00we would be taking is the one which the Deputy First Minister set out
0:05:00 > 0:05:05yesterday which is to embark on dialogue with the European
0:05:05 > 0:05:09Commission on this particular question. And we will ensure that
0:05:09 > 0:05:13the dialogue gives us or the European Union a clear
0:05:13 > 0:05:18understanding of the perspective we are bringing to the process. Will
0:05:18 > 0:05:23the Scottish Government put clearly to the Scottish electorate that
0:05:23 > 0:05:28there is a strong possibility that independent Scotland would have to
0:05:28 > 0:05:36reapply for membership of the European Union? And that there may
0:05:36 > 0:05:41be a period before the application process is completed when an
0:05:41 > 0:05:48independent Scotland would do not in fact be a member of the European
0:05:48 > 0:05:52Union? -- would not in fact. Would that be but clearly so that people
0:05:52 > 0:05:58understand the gamble they are taking on continued membership of
0:05:58 > 0:06:03the European Union? To give you a sharp answer, no, we will not do
0:06:03 > 0:06:08that, because we do not take that view. For the question of there
0:06:08 > 0:06:13being a period of Scotland not being in the European Union, I
0:06:13 > 0:06:20think the issue which has to be recognised is at the heart of the,
0:06:20 > 0:06:27as I have made about the paragraph that the Lord chairman highlighted
0:06:27 > 0:06:31to begin with... There is no mechanism to not apply the treaties.
0:06:31 > 0:06:34Therefore, we could not put to the people of Scotland a comment that
0:06:35 > 0:06:40somehow the treaties would not apply because there is no provision
0:06:40 > 0:06:46within the treaty to enable that to happen.
0:06:46 > 0:06:48Who is right and he was wrong? Canny Scottish Government change
0:06:48 > 0:06:58the view of the European Commission? -- can that the
0:06:58 > 0:07:03Scottish Government was upstaging for the next instalment. -- stay
0:07:03 > 0:07:08tuned. We could not persuade a Minister to
0:07:08 > 0:07:12appear tonight but I am joined this evening by Lord McFall. He was part
0:07:12 > 0:07:19of the committee that Quist John Swinney. What did you make about
0:07:19 > 0:07:25the arguments about whether an independent Scotland would be in or
0:07:25 > 0:07:29out of the European Union? This MP said previously that it was cut and
0:07:29 > 0:07:32dried and Phil President Barroso's letter came. I thought it was
0:07:32 > 0:07:39disingenuous of John Swinney today to say there was no basis in the
0:07:39 > 0:07:48treaty because there was a Parliamentary question on the 1st
0:07:48 > 0:07:54March 2042 President Barroso's predecessor -- in March, 2004. He
0:07:54 > 0:08:00said that a country that became independent by secession from its
0:08:00 > 0:08:06main body would be a third country as far as the commission was
0:08:06 > 0:08:10concerned and would have to reapply. When a Parliamentary committee
0:08:10 > 0:08:15sends a letter to the president of the European Commission and that
0:08:15 > 0:08:19takes weeks to come back, I really do not think that it is a rushed
0:08:19 > 0:08:26job. I think there is a little bit of flying kites by John Swinney
0:08:26 > 0:08:32today on this issue. The counter to that is that just because the
0:08:32 > 0:08:36predecessor interpreted things that way in 2004, he cannot point to
0:08:36 > 0:08:39anything in the European treaties which actually provides for the
0:08:39 > 0:08:43situation that Scotland would be insured it vote for independence.
0:08:44 > 0:08:48The difference with Algeria is that the Algerians... There was a colony
0:08:48 > 0:08:56of France and could not get away quick enough. Scotland's attitude
0:08:56 > 0:09:03is not like that. The answer draws on article 299 which further draws
0:09:03 > 0:09:08on Article 256. It is wrong to say there is no basis. I think what the
0:09:08 > 0:09:14situation today is that it is a complex situation. There is not a
0:09:14 > 0:09:20simple proposition. It is not tested as the SNP said it was. The
0:09:20 > 0:09:23letter from Nicola Sturgeon to President Barroso was only sent
0:09:23 > 0:09:32yesterday it asking for negotiations and the chairman I
0:09:32 > 0:09:37think was quite a standard that be -- despite the furore eight the SNP
0:09:37 > 0:09:43did not seem willing to put pen to paper and contact the commission.
0:09:43 > 0:09:48They have made it much more complex and Maddie as a result of their
0:09:48 > 0:09:52resistance -- muddy. Is the bottom line not that it does not matter?
0:09:52 > 0:09:55If people in Scotland did vote for independence, you cannot conceive
0:09:55 > 0:10:05can you that the European Union would somehow want to throw
0:10:05 > 0:10:09
0:10:09 > 0:10:15It does matter because we have had 19 sessions where a FTSE 100
0:10:15 > 0:10:21companies employing 6500 people in Dumbarton, worth 2 billion of
0:10:21 > 0:10:26revenues, where the chairman says that being part of the you is for
0:10:26 > 0:10:31them to have their headquarters and their manufacturing base... I am
0:10:31 > 0:10:34not disputing it is important for big companies, but you simply can't
0:10:34 > 0:10:39concede, Kenya, given that the people of Scotland have been part
0:10:39 > 0:10:45of the you for 40 years, you can't conceive of a situation where
0:10:45 > 0:10:50should people vote for independence, their European Union would want to
0:10:50 > 0:10:57sling Scotland out. We don't do things with nods and winks here. We
0:10:57 > 0:11:01have got to ensure that we lay out the issues that we de complex the
0:11:01 > 0:11:06issues and have for transparency. You can't just say, because
0:11:06 > 0:11:11Scotland is voting for independence then everything will be OK. That is
0:11:11 > 0:11:20not the way you do business. When you see the opportunity in the rest
0:11:20 > 0:11:26of Europe, Spain, and others, perhaps the EC will be nervous
0:11:26 > 0:11:31about this situation. It requires the SNP to be honest, engaged on a
0:11:31 > 0:11:36serious level with the EC Commission so that they provided
0:11:36 > 0:11:41transparency and simplicity in the debate. It is characterised at the
0:11:41 > 0:11:45moment by uncertainty. What they have done his pile uncertainty on
0:11:46 > 0:11:50uncertainty. Both you and the SNP seemed he agree that there would
0:11:50 > 0:11:55have to be some form of negotiations. You just disagree
0:11:55 > 0:11:59about the status of negotiations. I am curious as to what you think the
0:11:59 > 0:12:07negotiations would be about. They would be about Scotland getting
0:12:07 > 0:12:14into their EU because Barroso's letter makes that very clear.
0:12:14 > 0:12:19make an obvious point, the body of law which you have to sign up to in
0:12:19 > 0:12:23order to become a member of the EU is already northern Scotland, so
0:12:23 > 0:12:28that wouldn't change. In your view, would it be issues like whether or
0:12:28 > 0:12:33not Scotland had to join the Euro? If you are going to be an aspiring
0:12:33 > 0:12:38member then you have to join the Euro. I think that John Swinney put
0:12:38 > 0:12:42himself in a corner today when he said that he could never envisage
0:12:42 > 0:12:48Scotland joining the Euro. It doesn't seem the best approach,
0:12:48 > 0:12:52when you are asking to get into the EU, and you are saying we are not
0:12:52 > 0:12:57going to join your currency, it so I think they put themselves into a
0:12:57 > 0:13:03corner on that issue. Thank you very much for joining us. Listening
0:13:03 > 0:13:07to that in our studio is Iain Macwhirter of the Herald. What do
0:13:07 > 0:13:13you make of this? Are you bored stiff or do you find it
0:13:13 > 0:13:19interesting? What is interesting is how the SNP have such heavy weather
0:13:19 > 0:13:24of this. It is very revealing that this policy, which delivered so
0:13:24 > 0:13:29many political benefits for me ever last 20 years, has now become a
0:13:30 > 0:13:33milestone. I still think it is a tactical problem, but they have not
0:13:33 > 0:13:40begun to address it. They are only listening to themselves and not
0:13:40 > 0:13:44others, particularly what Manual Barroso was saying. He started
0:13:44 > 0:13:48saying this back in September when he came out with a line that a new
0:13:48 > 0:13:53state would have to apply like any other. There seems to be the issue
0:13:53 > 0:13:57with the SNP on this issue, doesn't there, that if they keep repeating
0:13:57 > 0:14:03something over and over again, somehow it will become true. It
0:14:03 > 0:14:08looks like that is coming unstuck. Essentially I understand the
0:14:08 > 0:14:12frustration because this is a bogus argument. Not even Lord McFall was
0:14:12 > 0:14:17prepared to say that Scotland would be thrown out of the EU if it
0:14:17 > 0:14:22became independent. Nobody believes that really is the case, however,
0:14:22 > 0:14:28you know, it has been made to appear as though that is on the
0:14:29 > 0:14:33agenda. It could have been addressed more directly by the SNP.
0:14:33 > 0:14:38Perhaps Nicholas sturgeon will do this later this week. She could
0:14:38 > 0:14:44have hopped on a flight to Brussels last September and proper help
0:14:44 > 0:14:49Barroso on it and ask if he is seriously saying that if Scotland
0:14:49 > 0:14:55becomes independent you would expel 5.2 million citizens of the EU from
0:14:55 > 0:15:01the European Union? De you seriously believe that? There's
0:15:01 > 0:15:07also this issue, are fiercely the SNP strategy is to not frighten the
0:15:07 > 0:15:11horses, but to do you think they are pushing it too far? Vote for
0:15:11 > 0:15:18independence, absolutely no difference whatsoever. Why not just
0:15:18 > 0:15:22say, there has to be a renegotiation. That is a pretty
0:15:22 > 0:15:28radical thing to do, of course all sorts of things will have to change,
0:15:28 > 0:15:35that is what is exciting. Of course negotiations would have to take
0:15:35 > 0:15:40place. Over a number of issues. But an number of these would have to be
0:15:40 > 0:15:45renegotiated by the UK, because the UK would have to renegotiate its
0:15:45 > 0:15:50contribution to the EU budget. It would also have to defend its
0:15:50 > 0:15:56voting strength in the Council of Ministers which the UK will be very
0:15:56 > 0:16:01much reduced. I think, I mean, I am mystified why the SNP has got into
0:16:01 > 0:16:05this mess over it. I think it is because they did not listen to what
0:16:05 > 0:16:10Barroso was saying because he has another agenda. He was trying to
0:16:10 > 0:16:16say to the Spanish government that they you will not encourage so
0:16:17 > 0:16:21session. That is why he has been shifting this way towards
0:16:21 > 0:16:27suggesting that new states would have to apply separately for the EU.
0:16:27 > 0:16:31He knows that is not really the case, that it would be about
0:16:31 > 0:16:37negotiation. No one would get expelled, but the SNP should have
0:16:37 > 0:16:41gone in and questioned that. Do you think the SNP need to fight back in
0:16:41 > 0:16:46and narrow political sense? The No 2 independence people could just
0:16:46 > 0:16:51say here is yet another issue which they had said was not a problem and
0:16:51 > 0:16:56it turns out there are all sorts of questions. How do the SNP fight
0:16:56 > 0:17:00back against that perception? need to refrain it, for a start.
0:17:00 > 0:17:07They are so passive about it as though Scotland would be pleading
0:17:07 > 0:17:11to stay in the EU. The EU would be desperate to keep Scotland due to
0:17:11 > 0:17:15though it renewable energy sources. Similarly with the currency. That
0:17:15 > 0:17:19is the Billy saying that we have to be allowed to keep the pound, I
0:17:20 > 0:17:25think they should say, maybe not. If it is like that, maybe think of
0:17:25 > 0:17:31taking up the Euro. A quick look at the front pages starting with the
0:17:31 > 0:17:39Herald. Lennon reprimand Celtic start over Real IRA tribute is the
0:17:39 > 0:17:47headline. The Celtic player who has been accused by the Football Club.
0:17:47 > 0:17:52The Scotsman, tidings of diskette - - discomfort and woe in Scotland.