:00:10. > :00:13.Tonight on Newsnight Scotland: The government launches a
:00:13. > :00:16.consultation on its same sex marriage bill. But what's the point,
:00:16. > :00:20.when it ignored its own consultation on whether to have the
:00:20. > :00:23.bill in the first place? And how does the bill compare with
:00:23. > :00:26.same sex marriage proposals for England and Wales? On the face of
:00:26. > :00:29.it, it's more liberal, but are attitudes here really any
:00:29. > :00:32.different? Also tonight, fewer people are
:00:32. > :00:37.unemployed, but there are fewer people in the workforce. We'll try
:00:37. > :00:40.to explain the ever more mysterious employment figures.
:00:40. > :00:43.Good evening. Yesterday, David Cameron gave the go-ahead for same
:00:43. > :00:46.sex marriages in England. But the Church of England will be
:00:46. > :00:49.specifically excluded by law. Today the Scottish government published
:00:49. > :00:53.its plans to legislate. The Church of Scotland won't be specifically
:00:53. > :00:56.excluded, although it will be able to choose whether to be in or out,
:00:56. > :01:06.like every other church. Very few MSPs are opposed to same sex
:01:06. > :01:13.
:01:13. > :01:17.marriage. Are they in tune or out After the consultation on same-sex
:01:17. > :01:23.marriage, the consultation on the bill. Same-sex marriage is broadly
:01:23. > :01:27.speaking back to buy most MSPs, and all the major parties. But it is
:01:27. > :01:30.opposed by the Church of Scotland, the Roman Catholic church and some
:01:31. > :01:34.other religious groups. The government is trying to offer
:01:34. > :01:38.reassurance. It is about a balance. You have
:01:38. > :01:42.people of the same sex wanting to get married. On the other hand you
:01:42. > :01:46.have people who are dates this of religious reasons. So what we are
:01:46. > :01:50.doing is we are saying if you are in love and of the same sex, you
:01:50. > :01:54.are free to marry. But if you are a religious organisation or a member
:01:54. > :01:59.of the clergy and you don't want to participate in that, you have the
:01:59. > :02:02.freedom not to. The Scottish government is always
:02:02. > :02:07.insisting that nobody would be forced to conduct gay marriages.
:02:07. > :02:09.Under the plans, religious and believe groups would be to opt in
:02:09. > :02:17.to conduct them. The Scottish government is to work with
:02:17. > :02:25.Westminster to make sure or are they so that don't conduct gay
:02:25. > :02:30.marriages don't fall foul of equality laws. -- made sure that
:02:30. > :02:33.organisations. We are still concerned, as a matter
:02:33. > :02:39.of law, that the Scottish government can fulfil the promise
:02:39. > :02:43.it has made to protect those whose genuinely held religious beliefs
:02:43. > :02:53.mean that they can't support the proposals on same-sex marriage.
:02:53. > :03:11.
:03:11. > :03:15.The Catholic Church also has Same-sex marriage is also being
:03:15. > :03:19.introduced south of the border, and there's in interesting difference
:03:19. > :03:26.in the political debate. A significant number of Conservative
:03:26. > :03:35.MPs are openly opposed. But here, the number of -- majority of Ennis
:03:35. > :03:38.p support gay marriage. The leaders of all for -- four major parties
:03:38. > :03:43.support the principle. One of the most prominent critics
:03:43. > :03:46.has been the SNP's former leader, Gordon Wilson, who spoke at a
:03:46. > :03:53.fringe meeting near the SNP conference.
:03:53. > :03:59.The SNP government, for reasons I can't understand, has stumbled into
:03:59. > :04:06.a difficulty that they should have avoided. As a nationalist, I find
:04:06. > :04:13.it odd that, in the run-up to an independent referendum, the F --
:04:13. > :04:23.SNP adopted gay marriage, knowing that it would alienate many voters.
:04:23. > :04:23.
:04:23. > :04:27.A brilliant tactician! Did Gordon Wilson hit a point? By
:04:27. > :04:32.think back to the year 2000 and the campaign against the repeal of
:04:32. > :04:39.Section 28. We didn't vote for it and we are
:04:39. > :04:49.not having it. Is there a social conservatism in
:04:49. > :04:59.Scotland which is not represented in Holyrood. In any case, R N S B
:04:59. > :04:59.
:04:59. > :05:01.is supposed to lead public opinion Professor John Haldane of St
:05:01. > :05:06.Andrews University's philosophy department is in Dundee. And the
:05:06. > :05:11.writer and blogger Gerry Hassan is here in Glasgow.
:05:11. > :05:21.And a curious as to what to make the difference between Scottish
:05:21. > :05:31.
:05:31. > :05:34.proposals and what is happening There's a similar effort to reach a
:05:34. > :05:41.balance in England and Wales and Scotland. That is about the balance
:05:41. > :05:46.between equality in the law of same-sex marriage and acknowledging
:05:46. > :05:50.religious principle. What the David Cameron government seems to have
:05:50. > :05:56.done is because there's such attention over a whole host of
:05:56. > :05:59.things, they have leaned towards what is, I think, and illogical
:05:59. > :06:05.compromise, basically, that runs a horse and cart through the
:06:05. > :06:11.principle of equality. I am curious as to what you make.
:06:11. > :06:17.Even if you are against gay sex -- same-sex marriage in principle,
:06:17. > :06:21.there's a compromise way you say, well, we will make it legal but
:06:21. > :06:27.illegal in the Church of England. Does that make sense to you?
:06:27. > :06:34.It does when you think about the position of the Church of in and --
:06:34. > :06:40.of England as the established Church. What might be domestic law
:06:40. > :06:46.for another denomination, the Church of England has statutory
:06:46. > :06:51.status. It is tied in legally. The other aspect is that the Queen is
:06:51. > :06:58.the head of the Church of England. She has her archbishops publicly
:06:58. > :07:04.protesting this move towards implementation of same-sex marriage.
:07:04. > :07:11.It would be difficult for her to sign this legislation. There's a
:07:11. > :07:16.lot of delicacy being operated here. That doesn't have a counterpart in
:07:16. > :07:26.Scotland. It is not an established church.
:07:26. > :07:26.
:07:26. > :07:31.Do you believe... Where does it leave the Scottish legislation?
:07:31. > :07:35.It is trying to balance principles that are incompatible. One of the
:07:35. > :07:40.things we need to acknowledge is how far Scotland has travelled.
:07:40. > :07:42.What a lot of people don't remember is that in 1967, when male
:07:42. > :07:52.homosexuality was decriminalised and it was decriminalised in
:07:52. > :07:55.
:07:56. > :08:01.England and Wales. We had a decriminalisation in 1980. Then we
:08:01. > :08:08.had the court full-court was of Clause 28. -- then we have the
:08:08. > :08:13.cultural wars. Now we can't talk about how far we have travelled or
:08:13. > :08:18.allow people who have reservations to talk or air them in a language
:08:18. > :08:26.where we are trying to aid equality. There's a way we are not
:08:26. > :08:33.acknowledging how far we have Dear things Scottish society has
:08:33. > :08:41.changed, John? -- do you think? That is an interesting question,
:08:41. > :08:47.and it is difficult to answer. If you look at the politicians and the
:08:47. > :08:55.common Terry at, they are so on representative in general of the
:08:55. > :09:01.circumstances are people at large. -- and on representative. If you
:09:01. > :09:07.reach the domestic newspapers, the so-called quality press, under 2%
:09:07. > :09:13.are reading this newspaper has, so commentary there, who is reading
:09:13. > :09:17.it? A tiny number of people, we are essentially talking to ourselves.
:09:17. > :09:24.One indicator might be better when they had a consultation on having a
:09:24. > :09:27.bill at all, the majority of respondents were against it. Having
:09:27. > :09:31.made a big fuss about it consultation, they ignored it
:09:31. > :09:35.because it was just the wrong answer! That is an issue about
:09:35. > :09:41.which many have complained. The consultation happens daily on one
:09:41. > :09:44.thing or another, so the general population are not interested. I
:09:44. > :09:49.responded to a number of consultations on a range of issues,
:09:49. > :09:53.arts funding, all sorts of things, it tends to be the same kinds of
:09:53. > :09:58.people that but in a response, campaign groups, interested
:09:58. > :10:04.individuals, activists and so on. Most of this does not touch
:10:04. > :10:09.ordinary people. The Resi deeper, more pervasive problem. -- there is
:10:09. > :10:13.a deeper. We saw the introduction of bills in Westminster on voting
:10:13. > :10:18.procedures on the election of police commissioners and so on, and
:10:18. > :10:24.what we see in response to this, as this is an indication of public
:10:24. > :10:28.interest, plummeting voting figures. I would like to see the next
:10:28. > :10:33.Scottish election what it would be like, there will be a lower turnout.
:10:33. > :10:37.There is a gap turning up. This around argument that if you are
:10:37. > :10:40.genuine objections to same-sex marriage and you look at the
:10:40. > :10:46.Scottish Parliament as opposed to the Westminster Parliament, in
:10:46. > :10:50.Westminster, there is a phalanx of MPs saying this will not pass if we
:10:50. > :10:54.can stop out, if you look at the Scottish Parliament, you have got
:10:54. > :10:58.eight out of the entire Parliament, you are entitled to feel that this
:10:58. > :11:04.Parliament, maybe it represents some people, but it does not
:11:04. > :11:10.represent me! Write about newspapers, write about commentary,
:11:10. > :11:15.there is evidence that Scotland is much more conservative than England
:11:16. > :11:23.and it is broadly in line now. We have changed much more. It is much
:11:23. > :11:27.more tolerant, diverse, but that diversity is about a narrower set
:11:28. > :11:34.of issues, a cosmopolitan democracy but does not threaten people in the
:11:34. > :11:37.European debate. Doesn't John's point mean that Europe is the other
:11:38. > :11:42.classic wine, if you look at that Parliament in Westminster, there is
:11:42. > :11:49.a huge division of views within and between parties, and if you look
:11:49. > :11:54.year, on the question of Europe, the Conservatives might represent a
:11:54. > :11:59.more Euro-sceptic tradition, but the vast majority say the European
:11:59. > :12:05.Union is fine. That's right, this is not an issue about same-sex
:12:05. > :12:09.marriage, I do not think that is a particular pivotal one on this, the
:12:09. > :12:16.wider issues are that there are a set of things that concern people
:12:17. > :12:20.in everyday life that a complicated, Unionism, nationalism, and stay do
:12:20. > :12:25.not represent a cosmopolitan, and lead, liberal view the way that
:12:25. > :12:31.some of the media interprets the census figures, like immigration
:12:31. > :12:35.being good, and class etc. counter to this would be to say
:12:35. > :12:38.that if people that genuinely objective to same-sex marriage or
:12:38. > :12:41.membership of the European Union were to form political parties on
:12:41. > :12:49.those issues and stand in the Scottish election, they probably
:12:49. > :12:54.would not get very far? probably true, but if you remember
:12:54. > :12:57.when Parliament has been set up, and the system would allow a space
:12:58. > :13:02.for independence and committees would exert a degree of
:13:02. > :13:07.independence and we have seen that the list systems are in the service
:13:07. > :13:11.of the main parties. It is a problem in the left and on the
:13:11. > :13:16.right that political parties have migrated from traditional positions,
:13:16. > :13:19.so the Labour Party in Scotland tended to be socially conservative
:13:19. > :13:24.and economic the radical and the Conservative Party has migrated
:13:24. > :13:30.from the standard positions and so on, and there are a large number of
:13:30. > :13:35.people turning away because it does not interest them. Is this not a
:13:35. > :13:40.problem that is more aggravated at Holyrood then it is at Westminster?
:13:40. > :13:45.Given what we have mentioned on Europe and same-sex marriage, the
:13:45. > :13:52.receipt huge split a cross-party cent within parties. The big
:13:52. > :13:57.problem is that the or is a lack of ambition. There are two handfuls of
:13:57. > :14:02.able people there, but for the most part, it looks like the regional
:14:03. > :14:07.council, but while Westminster is still a stage in which people can
:14:07. > :14:11.move, Scottish politicians and the more stable of them will migrate
:14:11. > :14:15.south, that is an obvious fact. You need to look at the front benches
:14:15. > :14:19.of the two main parties and the Liberal Democrats also. It is a
:14:19. > :14:25.problem, and I do not know what is to be done about this, but I hope
:14:25. > :14:29.Parliament will mature, but as it stands, it is disappointing. I do
:14:29. > :14:33.not want to turn this into a plea for more reactionaries in the
:14:33. > :14:40.Scottish Parliament, but there is on more social issues, public
:14:40. > :14:44.sector reform, all of the parties are much more the same than they
:14:44. > :14:49.are at the British level. That is all true, I do not buy the point
:14:49. > :14:57.that Westminster is this great model, I think it is broken, we had
:14:57. > :15:01.the biggest expenses scandal in modern history, the dilemmas are
:15:01. > :15:07.not reflected here. That is due in Westminster and in Scotland, in
:15:07. > :15:11.their Parliaments. Thank you. We said last month that politicians
:15:11. > :15:16.compare unemployment statistics on a month-to-month basis to see if
:15:16. > :15:19.Scotland is doing better than the UK. Unemployment is down everywhere
:15:20. > :15:23.but Scotland is slightly better than the rest. The number of people
:15:23. > :15:28.employed in Scotland has also decreased.
:15:28. > :15:36.In July to September unemployment in Scotland rose as far as a print
:15:36. > :15:40.1%. Unemployment for the wide UK was down. -- as far as 8.1 %. This
:15:40. > :15:43.is what we said one month ago. The graphic shows that unemployment
:15:43. > :15:48.rates are similar to those elsewhere continues for another
:15:48. > :15:52.month. This time, unemployment in Scotland is slightly lower than the
:15:52. > :15:57.UK average, but without any particular explanation our
:15:57. > :15:59.rationale. The number of job seekers has gone down also. The
:15:59. > :16:05.downside for the Scottish Government is that employment is
:16:05. > :16:09.down, effectively, the size of the workforce has shrunk. There are
:16:09. > :16:12.still challenge is in the Scottish economy, I would be the first to
:16:12. > :16:17.accept that point and the unemployment position is certainly
:16:17. > :16:22.improving. We yet have the largest fall in unemployment in any quarter
:16:22. > :16:25.since the spring of 2008. We had the welcome fall in youth
:16:25. > :16:31.unemployment, but we have got to continue our efforts to push the
:16:31. > :16:35.employment base within Scotland. is obvious because more people have
:16:35. > :16:38.left the workforce then joined its possibly because more people are
:16:38. > :16:45.retiring then young people starting out, or because workless people
:16:45. > :16:49.give up looking for work for a variety of other reasons.
:16:49. > :16:53.We are joined by Professor David Bell, maybe it is over-egging it by
:16:53. > :16:56.saying this is becoming a thriller, but it is a genuine mistake. John
:16:56. > :17:00.Swinney pointed out that the biggest fall for ages in
:17:00. > :17:05.unemployment, but he forgot to mention that Scotland had the
:17:05. > :17:09.biggest fall in employment of any area of the UK. How can these two
:17:09. > :17:15.things go together? It is effectively what was said earlier,
:17:15. > :17:18.people are perhaps dropping out of the labour market, perhaps students
:17:18. > :17:21.that his side when asked the question by the survey that they
:17:21. > :17:26.are not traded looking for work, they are concentrated on their
:17:26. > :17:32.studies, or maybe people retiring earlier than we would expect them
:17:32. > :17:36.to, it may also be that migrant workers are going back to Eastern
:17:36. > :17:43.Europe or perhaps people are migrating from Scotland, but it
:17:43. > :17:51.looks like the overall size or the overall number of people looking
:17:51. > :17:55.for work or Ian Breckin Scotland is definitely been contracting.
:17:55. > :18:01.should point out that the ON ness that compiles these figures, they
:18:02. > :18:08.say about it may be down to a sampling area, but they do not know
:18:08. > :18:11.if it is or not. -- sampling error in the Office of National
:18:11. > :18:15.Statistics. I understand everything that you have said, but it is
:18:16. > :18:22.difficult why this would apply to Scotland more than or exclusively,
:18:22. > :18:28.rather than other UK area is. The figures for the rest of the UK, if
:18:28. > :18:33.you look at the changed over the next 12 months, there is almost
:18:33. > :18:42.470,000 extra jobs Indian bend, there are about 40,000 more in
:18:42. > :18:47.Wales. -- extra jobs in England. There doesn't appear to be serious
:18:47. > :18:52.job generation going on. You have got some Labour inactivity figures
:18:52. > :18:57.for Scotland, people that report themselves as no longer in work or
:18:57. > :19:07.looking for work, tell us about that? People drop out for all kinds
:19:07. > :19:08.
:19:08. > :19:13.of reasons. They decide that may be they would like to retire or they
:19:13. > :19:18.decide... The figures this month of was to count for the entire
:19:18. > :19:24.increase in the UK? Penumbra people dropping out of the labour market
:19:24. > :19:28.this month in Scotland and the number dropping out in GB as a
:19:28. > :19:33.whole are always the same. -- the number of people dropping out of
:19:33. > :19:37.the labour market. It seemed slightly differed close to
:19:37. > :19:43.determine literally. Yes, there are sampling errors around these
:19:43. > :19:47.numbers. Coming down to what specifically could be happening,
:19:47. > :19:52.could there be, for example you mentioned migrant workers, could
:19:52. > :19:59.they be going home to eastern Europe from Scotland at a higher
:19:59. > :20:04.rate than they are from other areas in the south-east? None of these
:20:04. > :20:10.areas are clear, there is a lot of depressing news around. We have
:20:10. > :20:15.heard about these. If we can fully explain this contrast, it seems to
:20:15. > :20:19.me that there is still more investigation to be done. Just
:20:19. > :20:25.briefly on some other statistics, gross value adding, GDP figures for
:20:25. > :20:30.last year, four regions of the UK and this with them into sub regions,
:20:30. > :20:38.and the only sub Regent and the entire UK were GDP last year fell
:20:38. > :20:42.was East of Scotland. Very briefly, why? Possibly a weaker year for the
:20:42. > :20:46.oil, possibly a downturn in the financial services brought about by
:20:46. > :20:52.difficulties of two major banks, but still pretty difficult to fully