:00:01. > :00:11.January and the Met place say they are -- their investigations
:00:11. > :00:13.
:00:13. > :00:15.continue. Tonight on Newsnight Scotland:
:00:15. > :00:18.Is there a political consensus building against universal
:00:18. > :00:22.benefits? This is Ferguslie Park in Paisley,
:00:22. > :00:26.officially the most deprived area in Scotland. How does paying
:00:26. > :00:29.benefits to middle class families help the families who live here?
:00:29. > :00:35.And the heart of darkness. What is it about Scots, especially middle-
:00:35. > :00:39.aged Scottish men, that drives so many to kill themselves?
:00:39. > :00:43.Good evening. First it was Joanne Lamont then it
:00:43. > :00:45.was Nick Clegg, then it was Joanne Lamont again. From the left, the
:00:45. > :00:49.idea that people should receive some benefits, regardless of their
:00:49. > :00:51.income is beginning to be questioned. Benefits like free bus
:00:52. > :00:55.passes for the over 60s, free prescriptions and in Scotland, free
:00:55. > :00:59.tuition fees. One such benefit, child benefit, has already ceased
:01:00. > :01:02.to be universal. From next month it will be means-tested. So, in these
:01:02. > :01:12.times of austerity, what should and shouldn't be universally provided
:01:12. > :01:19.
:01:19. > :01:22.This is a story about making hard choices in difficult economic times.
:01:22. > :01:27.Choose to provide people with one benefit and then you are choosing
:01:27. > :01:32.not to fund something else. And elected Governments in Edinburgh
:01:32. > :01:36.and London have made their own choices and both have chosen to
:01:36. > :01:44.provide benefits to people regardless of how well off they are.
:01:44. > :01:50.In Scotland, the big particular particular ticket benefits are free
:01:50. > :01:54.tuition fees and free prescriptions. This is Ferguslie Park. Should
:01:54. > :01:57.benefits be means-tested so people in areas like this might get a
:01:57. > :02:02.greater concentration of resources or should they be given to everyone
:02:02. > :02:06.regardless of whether they need them or not?
:02:06. > :02:11.Drive a few miles away and you are in one of the most affluent areas
:02:11. > :02:19.in Glasgow. A world apart in terms of income, but some of the
:02:19. > :02:23.advantages are the same. Residents here get free
:02:23. > :02:26.prescriptions, free bus travel and winter fuel allowances, but are
:02:26. > :02:33.these benefits they don't need? What would happen if they were
:02:33. > :02:35.taken away? APPLAUSE
:02:35. > :02:39.And that possibility raised its head yesterday. Nick Clegg told a
:02:39. > :02:42.press conference basically there is no such thing as a free lunch.
:02:42. > :02:50.Support fairness by making clear that money should not be paid to
:02:50. > :02:56.those who don't need it. Looking again at universal benefits paid to
:02:56. > :03:00.the wealthiest pensioners for example.
:03:00. > :03:10.Joanne Lamont put her head above the parapet a few months ago when
:03:10. > :03:14.they kick started the debate on universal universal universali ity?
:03:14. > :03:20.We need to be honest about the the sustainability of free higher
:03:20. > :03:25.education and the impact it will have on academic standards? This
:03:25. > :03:27.man says take universal benefit away at your peril.
:03:27. > :03:31.Only looking at one side of the argument, universal benefits is
:03:31. > :03:34.flawed. If you take the middle classes out of the Welfare State,
:03:34. > :03:39.they are not going to support it. You won't get support for the
:03:39. > :03:43.system that is likely to address inequalities. We know this from
:03:43. > :03:49.looking at Sweden where the middle classes get something back for the
:03:49. > :03:55.support of the Welfare State. I don't care if Rod Stewart gets a
:03:55. > :03:57.free bus pass or millionaire's kids free university education as long
:03:57. > :04:03.as they are paying for it in their tax.
:04:03. > :04:08.They argue we are going a different way from the rest of the UK. .P-
:04:08. > :04:12.Everyone says Scotland is not that different from the rest of the UK.
:04:12. > :04:18.But they vote to the left. They like the idea of being more sharing
:04:18. > :04:21.and more collective. Actually, polling in Scotland
:04:21. > :04:29.suggests support for universal benefits like tuition fees and free
:04:29. > :04:33.bus travel is well, not universal. But there are political no go areas
:04:33. > :04:38.for any Government. The public would not support removing benefits
:04:38. > :04:42.like free access to GPs and free hospital meals. But there is a
:04:42. > :04:46.debate about what should be universally provided and it looks
:04:46. > :04:54.like it will be one of the big political issues of the next few
:04:54. > :04:57.I'm joined by Robin McAlpine of the Jimmy Reid Foundation and in our
:04:57. > :05:07.London studio is Graeme Cooke of the Institute of Public Policy
:05:07. > :05:10.
:05:10. > :05:16.Finance. Is this a trend that politicians that we would normally
:05:16. > :05:21.consider to be left of centre are questioning the universality of
:05:21. > :05:26.benefits? What Joanne Lamont was doing today was pointing out that
:05:26. > :05:30.the essence of politics is priorities especially when there is
:05:30. > :05:33.less money around. There is a trade-off to be struck between
:05:33. > :05:39.access to higher education and the quality and standards of the
:05:40. > :05:45.education pro provided and the costs and who pays for it. There is
:05:45. > :05:48.choices to be made about where universalism is most and less
:05:48. > :05:51.important and it is grown-up politics to have an honest debate
:05:51. > :05:54.about that. But you wouldn't see it that way,
:05:54. > :05:57.would you? It is fine that we have a debate about it, but I have
:05:57. > :06:01.problems with the suggestion that we look at this only true the prism
:06:01. > :06:05.of a set Budget of afford affordability and we don't think
:06:05. > :06:11.about what works, what makes a difference, what really improves
:06:11. > :06:15.society? The answer is we have not come up with any system which is as
:06:16. > :06:19.good at eradicating poverty and promoting equality across society
:06:19. > :06:24.as a universal universal Welfare State.
:06:24. > :06:27.Let's get back to the philosophy in a moment. Let's take one example
:06:27. > :06:30.and it is one of the things that has been raised by Nick Clegg and
:06:30. > :06:35.from his own point of view, Iain Duncan Smith which is winner fuel
:06:35. > :06:40.payments which are paid -- winter fuel payments which are made Peaud
:06:40. > :06:43.to middle -- paid to middle-class people who don't need them. Can you
:06:43. > :06:47.see any justification for making that a universal benefit? There is
:06:47. > :06:51.no point in having this this debate in the abstract. Governments raise
:06:51. > :06:55.taxation and they spend and they have to balance those two out over
:06:56. > :07:00.a cycle and it seems to me hard to justify taking away tax credits
:07:00. > :07:04.from low income working families when you are protecting universal
:07:04. > :07:10.winner fuel allowance and free TV TV licences for well off pensioners.
:07:10. > :07:14.In principle, it would be great if we could provide these things to
:07:14. > :07:17.everyone with no limits, but there are limits and and politics is
:07:17. > :07:27.about making priorities and choices and what is most important? And
:07:27. > :07:27.
:07:28. > :07:35.where do you want to defend universalism on education and
:07:35. > :07:39.health and schools? There are many pensioners that need it, but it is
:07:39. > :07:43.a particularly acute example, isn't it? I mean I think the bedrock of
:07:43. > :07:47.the Welfare State is the contributingtry, the basic State
:07:47. > :07:53.pension that should go to to to everyone that contributed to the
:07:53. > :07:57.system either through working or caring and the winter fuel
:07:57. > :08:01.allowance and free TV licences which are going to well off
:08:01. > :08:09.pensioners and significant sums of money could be saved if those
:08:10. > :08:17.benefits only went to the people on low incomes. And politics is about
:08:17. > :08:24.making those priorities. Let's stick to winter fuel payments.
:08:24. > :08:28.You have got lots of general arguments in your your leaflet. How
:08:28. > :08:31.would you justify that payment being universal?
:08:31. > :08:34.Supporting universalism doesn't mean supporting every possible
:08:35. > :08:39.expenditure that you could make from the Welfare State, but I want
:08:39. > :08:43.to shift the argument away from that because the fairness isn't in
:08:43. > :08:49.how you spend it, the the fairness is how you raise it. If we allow
:08:49. > :08:58.this debate to become a question of which piece of expenditure is or
:08:58. > :09:02.isn't more beneficial to one one group or another group, we take our
:09:02. > :09:09.eyes off the picture. I see the point. But you have argued in
:09:09. > :09:13.pieces that you have written that an unspecified they are involved in
:09:13. > :09:15.an attack on the Welfare State. When I ask you about a specific
:09:16. > :09:22.thing that people like Iain Duncan Smith and Nick Clegg are
:09:22. > :09:26.questioning, you back off and say, "I don't like attacks on universal
:09:26. > :09:33.ben benefits, but that one is fine.". If we want to create the
:09:33. > :09:37.best possible means of running our country, we don't start with winter
:09:37. > :09:42.fuel allowances. The inefficiency of managing means-tested benefits
:09:42. > :09:48.such as winter fuel has two massive down sides. It is incredibly
:09:48. > :09:54.inefficient. Fraud, error and administrative costs are high. More
:09:54. > :10:02.important if we keep winter fuel payments only for the poor, we do
:10:02. > :10:06.not have social buy in. Well, I wonder if you would agree
:10:06. > :10:16.with that because many of the universal benefits which people say,
:10:16. > :10:16.
:10:16. > :10:22."No, you can't take them a I them away." Are recent. I don't think
:10:22. > :10:25.winter fuel payments date back that long? Free education in Scotland,
:10:25. > :10:29.under the previous Government there was a form of graduate tax. Free
:10:29. > :10:34.prescription have been in for a year or two. A lot of these things
:10:34. > :10:42.are new things, aren't they? At one level Robin is right because you
:10:42. > :10:47.need to have systems where people pay in and have a a progressive tax
:10:47. > :10:54.system. It is in more institutions like the NHS, free education that
:10:54. > :11:01.people really do bind people together. It is in those areas I
:11:01. > :11:05.would defend universalism. I think it is important to extend
:11:05. > :11:10.universalism into areas like childcare, but given there are
:11:10. > :11:18.limited resources, that might mean you have to scale back universalism
:11:18. > :11:21.in areas like cash payments. What you are saying might might be
:11:21. > :11:25.an argument for universalism which is bringing people together for
:11:25. > :11:28.example children from different backgrounds which could help the
:11:28. > :11:31.children from less well off backgrounds perhaps as the one
:11:31. > :11:41.could help ones from better off backgrounds and that's something
:11:41. > :11:42.
:11:42. > :11:49.I think there are institutions and places in society when people from
:11:49. > :11:53.different backgrounds come together and benefit from each other. But I
:11:53. > :11:57.am not convinced that the cash transaction that goes from the
:11:57. > :12:00.Government to someone's bank account is vital for building
:12:00. > :12:05.social Solidarity around the welfare state. I'd think we need to
:12:05. > :12:09.get past these general arguments. We need to have a realistic
:12:09. > :12:15.conversation about what we want to prioritise and where universalism
:12:15. > :12:20.is more or less important. Adam, you would think that idea of things
:12:20. > :12:23.that bring people together is not about criteria. It is an excellent
:12:24. > :12:27.criteria. One of the things I think is interesting about this debate is
:12:27. > :12:34.that I have not heard anyone say we're going to have to lives with
:12:34. > :12:37.rising rates of crime because we cannot afford the police. What I am
:12:37. > :12:42.uncomfortable with and will be apt to be aware of is creating one box
:12:42. > :12:46.into which we put things that a right-wing ideologues would like to
:12:46. > :12:50.see attacked and calls on affordable and another boxer would
:12:51. > :12:54.put essentials. If we are going to have this debate, we have to step
:12:54. > :12:59.right back and look at overall budget priorities. Thank you very
:12:59. > :13:07.much. How many Scottish people do you
:13:07. > :13:14.think will themselves? 200, 300? The bad news is that according to
:13:14. > :13:20.statistics, 1533 people to their lives in Scotland in 2009. -- June
:13:20. > :13:27.2009 and 2010. What is it about Scot's that so many enter their own
:13:27. > :13:34.lives? Image of the suicide rates per
:13:34. > :13:41.hundred 1000 of the population. In 2002, seven -- Scotland at 17.6 but
:13:41. > :13:45.by 2010 it was 14.7. Statistical comparisons are difficult, but some
:13:45. > :13:51.of the data is disturbing even if it is not surprising. Three-
:13:51. > :13:55.quarters of our suicides are male. In 1968, a Scottish working man
:13:55. > :14:02.with six % more likely to kill themselves than his equivalent in
:14:02. > :14:10.England. By 2010, he was 75 % more likely. The Scottish women, it the
:14:10. > :14:15.incidence is twice as bad than four English counterparts. It is the
:14:15. > :14:19.third worth in Scotland. Norway has moved in the other direction.
:14:19. > :14:24.Scottish male suicide figures compare with Sweden. Things are
:14:24. > :14:28.significantly worse in Finland, Poland and Hungary. They are
:14:28. > :14:34.getting better faster than we are. Southern Europe is better than the
:14:34. > :14:39.north. Of course, you cannot make too much from statistical
:14:39. > :14:44.generalisations about individual tragedies. But there are trends and
:14:44. > :14:52.similarities which may help people understand, predict and prevent
:14:52. > :14:57.some suicides. There is no typical Scottish suicide. If there were, he
:14:57. > :15:02.would be male, he would be aged between his mid-30s and mid-50s. He
:15:02. > :15:06.would be much more likely poor and rich. He would probably not be from
:15:06. > :15:11.the Western Isles but could be from Glasgow, or the Highlands, or
:15:11. > :15:15.Shetland or Galloway. He would have a skilled trade and probably be
:15:16. > :15:21.single. He may well have been in hospital, perhaps as a previous
:15:21. > :15:25.attempt of self-harm. He is likely to have had our recent prescription
:15:25. > :15:33.for a mental health drug. Finally, he would end his own life in his
:15:34. > :15:38.own home, by hanging or strangulation. I am joined from
:15:38. > :15:44.Edinburgh by Professor Stephen Platt, the chair of the suicide
:15:44. > :15:53.information database. Do you have any idea by the suicide rate here
:15:53. > :15:57.should be getting worse? suicide rate in Scotland as well as
:15:57. > :16:02.England has actually been coming down in the last ten years. The
:16:02. > :16:06.problem is that our rate remains about 80 % higher than that rate in
:16:06. > :16:14.England and Wales. So what is coming down but the gap is not
:16:14. > :16:17.closing? Know. You say 80 % higher. Why should that be? We carried out
:16:17. > :16:24.some research recently with colleagues in Manchester and
:16:24. > :16:28.Glasgow and looked at this. Despite our best efforts, it is difficult
:16:28. > :16:35.to explain all the reasons for the difference. Half of it is
:16:35. > :16:39.unexplained. Or perhaps we can explain, it is largely down to
:16:39. > :16:43.differences and a worse situation with regard to psychiatric health
:16:43. > :16:48.or ill-health and alcohol related and drug-related problems. On top
:16:48. > :16:53.of that, you have also got issues around social deprivation and the
:16:53. > :16:58.break-up of communities. The major contribution it seems to be around
:16:58. > :17:04.psychiatric, alcohol and drug factors. Give me a portrait of your
:17:04. > :17:10.conception of people most at risk. The people most at risk are men,
:17:10. > :17:14.far more than women, in the Thirties to 50s, living in the most
:17:14. > :17:18.deprived circumstances. Either personally or in the areas they
:17:18. > :17:24.live. This is part of a wider pattern common across the whole of
:17:24. > :17:30.the UK, so there is nothing special about this. These are people born
:17:30. > :17:34.around the mid-50s to the mid-70s. Some sociologists working on this
:17:34. > :17:44.have talked about a bar for generations. At group of people,
:17:44. > :17:48.particularly men, who are caught between a much more traditional,,
:17:48. > :17:53.up traditional background, traditional culture, very little
:17:53. > :17:57.change compared to a younger generation, this does -- the so-
:17:58. > :18:01.called new generation who are much more independent minded. People in
:18:01. > :18:05.this group are often struggling to know exactly where they fit. They
:18:05. > :18:10.have also been faced with enormous social changes, higher divorce rate
:18:10. > :18:15.and more single living, more partnering at losing partners,
:18:15. > :18:20.changes in the world of work, many social and economic changes that
:18:20. > :18:24.they had had to cope with, and they are often men in a situation where
:18:24. > :18:30.they do not feel that they had either of the emotional literacy or
:18:30. > :18:36.the skills to deal with this. last bit you said, is that why you
:18:36. > :18:39.think men rather than women? Yes, because men, at this is a class
:18:40. > :18:43.difference, men basically have fewer skills in relation to dealing
:18:43. > :18:47.with psychological and emotional problems and greater difficulty in
:18:47. > :18:53.knowing where to go for help. And that is across the whole all social
:18:53. > :18:58.classes. Briefly, the standard figure here it there is one was for
:18:58. > :19:02.Shetland. Has anyone done any work and why that should be. It is high
:19:03. > :19:07.in the Highlands and Islands, the suicide rates have been high in
:19:08. > :19:11.Glasgow and those are the main places. My hunch is that the reason
:19:11. > :19:14.for these high rates are different. I think they have a late in Glasgow
:19:14. > :19:18.very much to issues of social deprivation, whereas in the
:19:18. > :19:22.Highlands and Islands I think the issues are to do with loneliness
:19:22. > :19:30.and the strains of rural living, particularly in the farming
:19:30. > :19:40.community. Thank you very much. The papers. The Scotsman, Christmas
:19:40. > :19:47.rail strikes. The Scottish Daily Mail, Scots are punished by unfair