:00:22. > :00:26.Now he wants to save the Union with England. He is no Lord Nelson or
:00:26. > :00:31.Winston Churchill, but could Alistair Darling be the hero to
:00:31. > :00:33.outdo all great British arose? -- heroes?
:00:33. > :00:36.Good evening. Alistair Darling was one of only
:00:36. > :00:40.three people to sit in Cabinet for the entirety of Labour's 13 years
:00:40. > :00:43.in office. He was the Chancellor who secured his reputation by his
:00:43. > :00:45.handling of the banking collapse of 2008. And now he's leading the
:00:46. > :00:48.campaign to preserve Scotland's place within the UK. In a moment,
:00:48. > :00:51.we'll be hearing his views on everything from whether there
:00:51. > :00:54.should be more devolution to whether there should be a British
:00:54. > :00:57.currency union even if Scotland votes for independence. But first,
:00:57. > :01:07.Jamie McIvor has this assessment of Darling the man and the mission
:01:07. > :01:10.
:01:11. > :01:16.Is Alistair Darling the mild- mannered hero for Unionists? The
:01:16. > :01:21.man who saved the banks who will now saved the United Kingdom? The
:01:21. > :01:26.former Chancellor now chairs better together, a cross-party campaign
:01:26. > :01:30.against independence. He is on a tour of Scotland, making a case,
:01:30. > :01:36.but his dry it serious-minded darling the right man to take on
:01:36. > :01:40.Alex Salmond? He is somebody who is able to work with people from all
:01:40. > :01:46.sorts of diverse backgrounds and that is because no matter how much
:01:46. > :01:50.he disagrees with someone, he is able to focus on the task in hand
:01:50. > :01:55.and this is the task in hand where there is agreement across Labour
:01:55. > :01:59.and the Tories. He is also somebody who no matter how much she
:01:59. > :02:03.disagrees with someone is prepared to treat them with respect. In
:02:03. > :02:11.return, he gets respect and credibility from those who were
:02:11. > :02:15.also disagree with his politics. Darling first came to prominence as
:02:16. > :02:21.a Labour councillor in the 1980s, bearded, sometimes open Collard, he
:02:22. > :02:28.wasn't just trendy, he was also LFT. He was friends with another Labour
:02:28. > :02:33.councillor who is now a committed supporter of independence. I think
:02:33. > :02:40.he is tactically astute and he will bring these qualities to bear for
:02:40. > :02:46.the campaign. He has to consider what history will say if Scotland
:02:46. > :02:50.narrowly reject this opportunity for independence. Because it has
:02:50. > :02:54.accepted a line from a coalition of Tories, Liberals and Alistair
:02:54. > :03:01.Darling. That would not be the legacy which at his best he would
:03:01. > :03:07.want to leave. Not long after he became Chancellor, the global
:03:07. > :03:10.economy hit the rocks. Mr Darling predicted as much to a newspaper
:03:10. > :03:16.journalist months before from his family croft and Lewis. Many were
:03:16. > :03:20.sceptical. For Scottish government are critical Alistair Darling for
:03:20. > :03:26.predicting a long-lasting economic downturn. Some in the UK cabinet
:03:26. > :03:31.were not exactly happy either. But weeks later he was at the centre of
:03:31. > :03:37.the bail out that saved two huge Scottish banks. For some, Alistair
:03:37. > :03:42.Darling became the hero, although opponents take another view.
:03:42. > :03:47.SNP and some in the yes Scotland Campaign believe Alistair Darling
:03:47. > :03:53.house two weaknesses. They think Scots regard him as somehow tainted
:03:53. > :03:58.by the economic crash in 2008 and his part in that. He was Chancellor
:03:58. > :04:03.at the time. They also think he is weak on certain aspects of the
:04:03. > :04:07.batter to De Gea the narrative, mainly welfare reform. This week we
:04:07. > :04:13.had the House of Commons voting to cut benefits for certain recipients
:04:13. > :04:15.in society. The SNP would cry with some villain for did Teague is are
:04:15. > :04:25.we truly better together when Westminster is foisting these cuts
:04:25. > :04:30.He for now, Alistair Darling's reputation and rest so on the
:04:30. > :04:35.referendum. Sea of independents and federal Unionists might add him to
:04:35. > :04:38.a list of great British heroes. But what would failure mean?
:04:38. > :04:41.Jamie McIvor reporting there. Earlier this evening, I spoke to
:04:41. > :04:43.Alistair Darling. I began by asking him whether the prospect of a
:04:43. > :04:53.Labour victory at Westminster in 2015 might assist the pro-union
:04:53. > :04:57.cause at the referendum in 2014. course what is happening at the
:04:57. > :05:00.time of the election -- the referendum... I don't just mean the
:05:00. > :05:05.outlook for the next general election, what is happening in the
:05:05. > :05:12.economy, Europe, the Middle East, it will influence people. I think
:05:12. > :05:15.people in Scotland can distinguish between the election of a
:05:15. > :05:20.government for five years and this thing, the referendum, which is
:05:20. > :05:25.about what we have for the next 300 years. You will have Alex Salmond
:05:25. > :05:32.and the SNP saying look, it is a stark choice between a social
:05:32. > :05:37.democratic Scotland or five or more years of Tory -- Tory austerity
:05:37. > :05:42.which Labour disagree with as much as we do. That is a no-brainer.
:05:42. > :05:48.Surely the only way you can reply is to vote no in the referendum
:05:48. > :05:56.campaign because Labour will make... Of course Alex Salmond will fight
:05:56. > :06:01.the issue as his government against... As an ordinary voter,
:06:01. > :06:05.that will have an influence. That will be a real issue at the general
:06:05. > :06:08.election. The reason he is doing that is because he knows he can't
:06:09. > :06:14.answer some fundamental questions as to what independence will mean.
:06:14. > :06:17.What I will say to voters in Scotland is you are being asked to
:06:17. > :06:21.do something completely different from voting in a government. You
:06:21. > :06:25.are being asked to decide for your country to split from the UK and
:06:25. > :06:32.you are being asked to do that with basic questions on what currency we
:06:32. > :06:40.will use... He is reasonable for people here to say we would prefer
:06:40. > :06:45.a social democratic Scotland. If the choice is between a political
:06:45. > :06:52.ideology we don't like and an independent Scotland, why shouldn't
:06:52. > :06:55.we vote for that? You are not voting for five years. In five
:06:55. > :07:00.years' time if you voted for independence, you can't go back to
:07:00. > :07:04.the UK after that. You have changed irrevocably. Of course Alex Salmond
:07:04. > :07:09.does not want to talk about some of the awkward questions of
:07:09. > :07:15.independence. Look at the trouble he got into over the European Union.
:07:15. > :07:19.What are you going to argue? That Scotland, its long-term future is
:07:19. > :07:23.dependent upon us being part of the UK, we are better and stronger
:07:23. > :07:29.because of it. We are part of a larger economy, we can share risks,
:07:29. > :07:33.deal with some of the big problems like the demographic changes, the
:07:33. > :07:38.pressures on the welfare state. But also the opportunities we have with
:07:38. > :07:43.Scots firms being able to sell him to England without any boundaries
:07:43. > :07:53.or barriers, the financial services industry. They announced yesterday
:07:53. > :07:55.
:07:55. > :07:59.they were going to use sterling, New get the sense they are is a
:08:00. > :08:04.sort of assumption among the Coalition that we have already won
:08:04. > :08:11.this? They said the other day they are not going to do any planning
:08:11. > :08:17.for things like Trident missiles. There have been all sorts of
:08:17. > :08:22.political commentators saying that they pretty much know they will win.
:08:22. > :08:29.Do you think there is a complacency creeping in? A I do not and if
:08:29. > :08:36.there is, there is no place for it. We are two years' a way from the
:08:36. > :08:40.referendum and nobody can see how the arguments will turn out. Until
:08:40. > :08:47.there is a mandate, you cannot proceed as if the decision had
:08:47. > :08:53.already been taken. We've all find out in 2014, when Alex Salmond is
:08:53. > :08:58.good enough to tell us the date, what the people of Scotland think.
:08:58. > :09:05.Until then, we have to look at the arguments and to go back to one of
:09:05. > :09:08.year earlier points, as it not high time we got on to these things.
:09:08. > :09:12.What about the Scottish government which cannot tell us until November
:09:12. > :09:16.this year what it thinks about these things, less than one year
:09:16. > :09:22.before the poll, and may have had 80 years to think about these
:09:22. > :09:29.things that cannot answer some fundamental questions. Why can they
:09:29. > :09:39.not tell us? Johann Lamont has set up a commission to look at further
:09:39. > :09:40.
:09:41. > :09:50.possible demolition as part of Labour's offering. -- devolution.
:09:50. > :09:53.Is there any need for this? That is a matter of debate. There is no
:09:53. > :10:03.conclusion or consensus as to whether any further revolution is
:10:03. > :10:06.
:10:06. > :10:13.needed. -- devolution. I have said before that I think other things
:10:13. > :10:18.will be devolved from time to time. The Scottish government has powers
:10:18. > :10:24.to start borrowing in two years' time. These things are happening
:10:24. > :10:30.and that is a change on the 1997 arrangements. You cannot think of
:10:30. > :10:34.any specific ex-managers? I am prepared to look at that.
:10:34. > :10:40.problem is you are running the campaign to stay in the UK so what
:10:40. > :10:46.is not quite good enough to say you are ready to look at it. Either it
:10:46. > :10:52.is perfectly legitimate for you to say no, there should not be, or
:10:52. > :10:57.actually yes, I think it should be. I am not saying that and I have
:10:57. > :11:02.always argued miss. Ever since there was the topic of the third
:11:02. > :11:09.question or the second question, what you have to ask is, I'll be
:11:09. > :11:15.staying in the UK? If so, do you want to devolved any further, or
:11:15. > :11:18.are we leaving... You consistently want to make this into your debate
:11:18. > :11:25.that I suspect this is not one that people that have not made up their
:11:25. > :11:31.minds will be looking at. It is not a case that everything else can
:11:31. > :11:35.wait till later, if I am going to wait -- to vote now, what are
:11:35. > :11:43.people like Alastair Darling offering me in terms of further
:11:43. > :11:49.progress order other options? I disagree with you is the first
:11:49. > :11:53.question you have to ask is are you staying on are you going? I made
:11:53. > :11:57.the point that all parties will have to set out in their manifestos
:11:57. > :12:00.what further constitutional change they would want, because I do not
:12:00. > :12:06.think you can ask people to vote on it unless it has been in your
:12:07. > :12:12.manifesto. Suppose you decided to do that, you would have to ask
:12:12. > :12:17.people living in England, Wales and Northern Ireland. They have not
:12:17. > :12:27.been asked on at any of this so far, even with three SNP's plans for a
:12:27. > :12:32.currency union. How committed are you to this whole issue? Could we
:12:32. > :12:36.see you standing for the Holyrood parliament? I am still a member of
:12:36. > :12:40.parliament and what I am committed to his fighting this referendum
:12:40. > :12:48.campaign. You could say, I would like to be in the Scottish
:12:48. > :12:56.Parliament... After this referendum campaign, I will try then.A former
:12:56. > :13:04.Chancellor of the Exchequer. You are also presumably in the spirit
:13:04. > :13:11.of debate prepared to concede you might lose this campaign. The SNP's
:13:11. > :13:18.idea of an independent Scotland keeping the pound Stirling currency,
:13:19. > :13:22.what would you suggest? A separate currency or joining the euro?
:13:22. > :13:27.I have said in relation to the currency union it is that if there
:13:27. > :13:33.is independence there may well be one. What I would say is that if
:13:33. > :13:38.you genuinely think... Should you lose, let's say you are Chancellor
:13:38. > :13:42.of an independent Scotland, what would you say? Of course it would
:13:42. > :13:46.be desirable to have a currency union but you also have to
:13:46. > :13:50.understand their consequences because a currency union means you
:13:50. > :13:57.bought have to agree on budgets and how much you can tax, spend and
:13:57. > :14:01.borrow. The point I am making is that is not the dumb! When you're
:14:01. > :14:11.in the eurozone, when Portugal sits down with Germany, who is going to
:14:11. > :14:11.
:14:11. > :14:15.make the decisions and call the shots? -- that is not so the dumb.
:14:15. > :14:20.What I am drawing attention to is the objectionable terms and
:14:20. > :14:29.conditions and the fact it will no longer be something we all agree on.
:14:29. > :14:34.You will have two partners such have to agree on it. If you have
:14:34. > :14:38.independence or separation, of course a currency union is logical,
:14:38. > :14:45.because a currency union ultimately leads to an economic and political
:14:45. > :14:49.union which is what we have now. I believe in the political union.
:14:49. > :14:54.Should Scotland bought to be independent? You think currency
:14:54. > :15:01.union is preferable to joining the euro, and you also think it would
:15:01. > :15:04.be in the interests of the rest of the UK? Let me answer that. I don't
:15:04. > :15:10.think it is in her interests to join the euro and I do not see that
:15:10. > :15:15.changing. Using somebody else's currency what the Bank of England
:15:15. > :15:20.and a foreign bank fixing up the rate of interest with no last
:15:20. > :15:24.resort or financial institutions, that leads to currency union and
:15:24. > :15:30.currency union takes you to an economic union and then a political
:15:30. > :15:35.union. We are then back where we are in the United Kingdom. Why go
:15:35. > :15:40.through it all this drama as the nationalists are suggesting to end
:15:40. > :15:43.up in the very same place you started from? I am entirely
:15:43. > :15:53.consistent and would look like to go through the whole mess to alter
:15:53. > :15:56.that we end up where we started. -- ultimately end up. You budgets have
:15:56. > :16:06.to beat decided by the individual countries and you end up with the
:16:06. > :16:07.
:16:07. > :16:10.censor duration. -- same situation. Do you think of Scotland became
:16:10. > :16:19.independent it would be in the interests of an organisation like
:16:19. > :16:26.the Royal Bank of Scotland, given the size of the country and the
:16:26. > :16:30.impact? They said it would depend on what was on the table. Scotland
:16:30. > :16:37.would have to have its own regulator and that is just what the
:16:37. > :16:42.European laws require. If you were using someone else's currency,
:16:43. > :16:46.heaven knows what would happen. Let me refer you to what the chairman
:16:46. > :16:51.said - we like being in Scotland and we have good employees and do
:16:51. > :16:56.not want to move, but if there is uncertainty a people come to doubt
:16:56. > :17:02.who stands behind us, we will have to look at it again. Why are we
:17:02. > :17:06.doing this and pitting ourselves through all this? Why do we want to
:17:06. > :17:11.raise at any question marks over the Royal Bank of Scotland and
:17:11. > :17:15.indeed other financial institutions? People always ask
:17:15. > :17:21.what governments -- what banks stand behind you and what
:17:21. > :17:24.governments behind that. Thank you very much.
:17:24. > :17:32.Joining me now from Edinburgh is BBC Scotland political
:17:32. > :17:39.correspondent Raymond Buchanan. First of all, is politics going to
:17:39. > :17:44.be dominated by this over the next year? For absolutely. It has been
:17:44. > :17:52.since 20th May 11 and it is like a thick mist over Scottish politics,
:17:52. > :17:57.the entire independence question and campaign. I cannot see 2013
:17:57. > :18:04.being any different. Do you see the public being thrilled by this
:18:04. > :18:08.prospect? After the victory in 2011, there was an enormous amount of
:18:08. > :18:13.public attention towards constitutional issues. I am not
:18:13. > :18:23.sure whether many voters on both campaign sides would say that the
:18:23. > :18:24.
:18:24. > :18:31.public are particularly fascinated, and the in and day out. -- Date in.
:18:31. > :18:36.The job now up of both campaigns will be to over the next year build
:18:36. > :18:39.some kind of infrastructure. What we have seen is then building up
:18:39. > :18:45.some of their initial personnel and working out their strategies about
:18:45. > :18:49.how they can prepare the campaign for 2014. That'll be the big
:18:49. > :18:54.challenge of this year - getting the infrastructure in place so that
:18:54. > :19:00.when the campaign heats up, there are campaigns there which can
:19:00. > :19:05.deliver their points of view. used the infrastructure, do you
:19:05. > :19:09.think that by the beginning of next year, there will be hordes of
:19:09. > :19:15.trained people ready to be unleashed? When you look at what
:19:15. > :19:19.the yes campaign are doing at the moment, they are holding meetings
:19:19. > :19:23.throughout Scotland where they are having various community events.
:19:23. > :19:30.They say they what the biggest community organisation and campaign
:19:30. > :19:33.ahead of 2014. That is happening across Scotland now. The Better
:19:33. > :19:37.Together campaign has had a grand tour this week meeting with
:19:37. > :19:43.businesses and communities, trying to build up relationships and get
:19:43. > :19:53.the infrastructure in place. your view, who is that he needs to
:19:53. > :19:58.target? I think Pete first step is to securing the Labour Court. They
:19:58. > :20:05.have been in recent weeks targeting issues they think will resonate
:20:05. > :20:11.with Labour voters. They have been pointing out that Scotland would
:20:11. > :20:15.have taken a different set of choices and are therefore tried to
:20:15. > :20:20.persuade traditional Labour voters to give the idea of independence
:20:20. > :20:28.serious thought, but beyond that, there is a question mark over both
:20:28. > :20:33.campaigns which is that traditional voters expect this independence
:20:33. > :20:40.referendum to have a much higher turnout. They do not know what the
:20:40. > :20:43.moment how it any additional voters will act in the polling booth and
:20:43. > :20:47.there will be a lot of research this year to determine who they are
:20:47. > :20:53.and how they can be persuaded to. Now a quick look at tomorrow's