:00:10. > :00:13.Tonight on Newsnight Scotland, three months on from the handshakes
:00:13. > :00:15.in Edinburgh, the gloves come off as MPs debate the transfer of
:00:15. > :00:21.powers to hold a referendum on independence to the Scottish
:00:21. > :00:26.Parliament. I'll be asking Lord Forsyth why he has a problem with
:00:26. > :00:30.what's been agreed. And as Gordon Strachan settles into his new job
:00:30. > :00:36.as Scotland manager, can he really bring the feel good factor to the
:00:36. > :00:38.nation? Good evening. The main political parties agree that the
:00:38. > :00:42.Scottish Parliament should be handed powers to hold the
:00:42. > :00:45.referendum on independence. But that didn't stop some strong words
:00:45. > :00:49.in the Commons as MPs approved the so-called Section 30 order earlier
:00:49. > :00:52.this evening. Tomorrow the order is in for another rough ride when it
:00:52. > :00:57.heads to the Lords, where Conservative peer Lord Forsyth has
:00:57. > :01:07.already voiced his concerns. More from him in a moment. But first
:01:07. > :01:13.
:01:13. > :01:17.It was meant to be a clear road to the referendum. The Scottish and UK
:01:17. > :01:21.governments on opposite sides of the debate but working together
:01:21. > :01:31.successfully to make the progress - - process leading to it as smooth
:01:31. > :01:33.
:01:33. > :01:40.as possible. -- the process. It was a game of give and take. The UK
:01:40. > :01:48.Government wanted to ensure there would be no second question. But
:01:48. > :01:53.the Scot is Government won the right to allow 16 and 17 year-olds
:01:53. > :01:58.to vote. Westminster has to give its approval. Today the House of
:01:58. > :02:03.Commons was debating this. Some Unionists are still worried these
:02:03. > :02:08.got his Government may try to ask a loaded question. Scottish Labour's
:02:08. > :02:13.deputy leader expressed another anxiety. I do not think anybody in
:02:13. > :02:17.this place should be naive about what the current make-up of the
:02:17. > :02:21.Scot is Government is. We have a majority SNP Government and the
:02:21. > :02:26.Scottish Parliament. That is not the democratic place in the
:02:26. > :02:31.conventional sense. It is a dictatorship of one man sitting in
:02:31. > :02:35.Bute House but who will do in his own interest. Scottish Secretary
:02:35. > :02:38.Michael Moore made the case for the deal. He warned there could be a
:02:38. > :02:42.price to pay 50 Scott his Government did not accept the
:02:42. > :02:47.Electoral Commission advice on the question. -- the Scottish
:02:47. > :02:52.Government. All party leaders have stated their intention to abide by
:02:52. > :02:57.the Commission judgment. To do otherwise would be a significant
:02:57. > :03:02.step to which there would be a political price. The order was
:03:02. > :03:08.passed on a post. Of course, there is also the House of Lords. They
:03:08. > :03:12.were debated tomorrow. Former Scottish Secretary Lord Forsyth sit
:03:12. > :03:18.there. He has serious concerns about the referendum. The First
:03:18. > :03:22.Minister thinks they are misguided. The Government proposes, the
:03:22. > :03:26.Electoral Commission makes the recommendations and the parliament
:03:27. > :03:31.decides. That is what happens in Westminster. What sticks in the
:03:31. > :03:34.craw of Michael Forsyth and his colleagues is that decisions are
:03:34. > :03:44.being made in Scotland. If it was being made in the House of Lords
:03:44. > :03:48.they would be entirely comfortable. But some nationalists may welcome a
:03:48. > :03:57.intervention from Lord Forsyth, in the belief it may remind Scott of
:03:57. > :04:00.the time before devolution -- Scots. He could inadvertently help the
:04:00. > :04:02.referendum campaign. Earlier I spoke to the Conservative peer and
:04:02. > :04:05.former Scottish Secretary Lord Forsyth who has tabled two
:04:05. > :04:09.amendments ahead of the debate in the House of Lords tomorrow. I
:04:09. > :04:13.asked him exactly what he's trying to do. I am trying to get the
:04:13. > :04:20.Scottish Government to tell us what the question is going to be, what
:04:20. > :04:23.the rules are with respect to the expenses and what the date is,
:04:23. > :04:28.before Parliament passes responsibility to the Scottish
:04:28. > :04:31.Parliament to pass the necessary legislation. It is very
:04:31. > :04:34.straightforward. The other amendment is trying to get the
:04:34. > :04:39.Electoral Commission, would tell me they will give their advice at the
:04:39. > :04:45.end of this month, on the question which Alex Salmond has proposed,
:04:46. > :04:51.which is, do you agree Scotland is an independent country? I would say
:04:51. > :04:55.yes. The issue is whether we want to be an independent state.
:04:55. > :05:00.want this resolved before matters are passed over to the Scottish
:05:00. > :05:06.Parliament? This was debated in the House of Commons today. Alistair
:05:06. > :05:10.Darling had a couple but attempts, and several other members had
:05:10. > :05:13.attempts with Angus Robertson, asking him to give an assurance
:05:13. > :05:19.that advice from the electoral commission would be taken by the
:05:19. > :05:22.SNP, as opposed to just considered. That has been the position with
:05:22. > :05:31.governments in every previous referendum. He refused to confirm
:05:31. > :05:35.that. I am just a bit worried that we may very well pass a party in
:05:35. > :05:41.the Scottish Parliament, which does effectively mean Alex Salmond, who
:05:41. > :05:47.has four in not treating these issues. You cannot trust in? I do
:05:47. > :05:53.not. We could end with a referendum with more reading Ben de Cutty Sark.
:05:53. > :05:56.I think it is responsible for Westminster to allow the Scottish
:05:56. > :06:00.Parliament to decide these things, but it seems to be rather curious
:06:00. > :06:10.that we do not know what the question, the date or the rules for
:06:10. > :06:11.
:06:11. > :06:13.You see it is responsible for at Westminster to get the
:06:13. > :06:17.responsibility to the Scottish parliament but if you amendments
:06:17. > :06:25.were passed you would be doing the opposite and all the decisions
:06:25. > :06:29.would be made before the power was handed across. On the contrary,
:06:29. > :06:34.this is advice to the Government. All I am saying to the Government
:06:34. > :06:38.is, do you not think it would be wise to get a clear indication from
:06:38. > :06:48.Alex Salmond of what the question is and how the advice from the
:06:48. > :06:53.Electoral commission on what they think is to be used? The last thing
:06:53. > :06:59.that we want is for a referendum where people argue that some aspect
:06:59. > :07:03.of it was not fair. I do not have a problem with the powers being
:07:03. > :07:10.passed to the Scottish parliament. I do think there is a
:07:10. > :07:15.responsibility as was clear from the Commons debate, to be sure of
:07:15. > :07:20.what Alex Salmond is up to. He did not tell the Prime Minister after
:07:20. > :07:25.it had been agreed that the vast majority of people thought that
:07:25. > :07:29.there should be a single question. The point is that whatever
:07:29. > :07:33.electoral commission says, even if it disagrees with Alex Salmond's
:07:33. > :07:41.question, the dealers that the Scottish parliament not Alex
:07:41. > :07:46.Salmond then decides. -- the deal is. The Scottish parliament is Alex
:07:46. > :07:53.Salmond. If it is then that is because people voted it that way.
:07:53. > :07:57.Yes, and I do not have a problem with that provided it is at ease in
:07:57. > :08:02.question and a fair referendum and it is not right. The question being
:08:02. > :08:08.proposed by Alex Salmond is one I would say yes to and I am not noted
:08:08. > :08:13.as a great supporter of breaking up the United Kingdom. Do you think
:08:13. > :08:18.that there is a danger that the British Government is being either
:08:18. > :08:21.are not aggressive enough on its arguments for the pointed you use
:08:21. > :08:27.support or becoming a bit complacent? They seem to think they
:08:27. > :08:37.have won this without too much effort into it. I think they're
:08:37. > :08:44.utterly complacent. The MoD is not making any contingency plans for or
:08:44. > :08:51.-- for if Scotland separates, that is considering the nuclear arms. It
:08:51. > :08:55.is gross negligence. The implications are very important for
:08:55. > :09:01.the rest of the United Kingdom. There are also important for the
:09:01. > :09:06.rest of the 10,000 jobs in Scotland. You were very critical of Michael
:09:06. > :09:11.Moore and the British Government's unwillingness to use their power to
:09:11. > :09:15.ask the European Union for formal statement on what an independent
:09:15. > :09:20.Scotland's position would be. He gave evidence to our economic
:09:20. > :09:25.affairs committee which will report shortly. Yes, we did give them a
:09:25. > :09:28.hard time we did think he was complacent. The SNP were saying
:09:28. > :09:32.that they would not talk to them because they were not a Government.
:09:32. > :09:37.That was a fair point. Therefore the Government should have asked
:09:37. > :09:40.the European Union for their position. There are a whole range
:09:40. > :09:44.of issues. At the end of the day people have to make their own minds
:09:44. > :09:51.up about this. But they should do this on the basis of facts and
:09:51. > :09:54.evidence. It is very important that we have clarity. The other
:09:54. > :09:58.important problem is that we could spend another few months talking
:09:58. > :10:04.about process and we should be talking about the issues.
:10:04. > :10:10.describe the Government was Mark issue as complacent. --
:10:10. > :10:14.Government's. Every Government department needs to publishing
:10:14. > :10:18.neutral terms what the issues are at four at both the rest of the
:10:18. > :10:22.United Kingdom and for Scotland with independence. I think we also
:10:22. > :10:30.need to know what issues could be decided in advance of the
:10:30. > :10:35.referendum. And what be subject to negotiation as well. Someone from
:10:35. > :10:38.the panel that visors for Alex Salmond says that the post and
:10:38. > :10:42.associations could go on for one year. Goodness knows what happens
:10:42. > :10:47.to jobs and investment if we have that degree of uncertainty for so
:10:47. > :10:57.long. We need to do this with their eyes wide open. I do very much
:10:57. > :11:00.
:11:00. > :11:03.indeed. The constitutional future may still
:11:03. > :11:06.be an clear but at least we know we're heading back that up as far
:11:06. > :11:12.as the national football team is concerned. The women of Gordon
:11:12. > :11:22.Strachan has been widely welcomed. Some are old enough to remember his
:11:22. > :11:28.
:11:28. > :11:33.contributions on the field. It is a long time since the Scottish
:11:33. > :11:40.national team was a fixture. There at the ease that the spectacular
:11:40. > :11:49.failure to match expectations in Argentina in 1978 contributed to
:11:49. > :11:55.the size of the No vote in the devolution referendum of 1979. Is
:11:55. > :12:02.to the football ambitions and a little more and muted. I would like
:12:02. > :12:09.to avoid finishing last. success of the Olympics last year
:12:09. > :12:12.was widely thought to have cheered up everyone in Britain. Could the
:12:12. > :12:16.Scottish national football side to the side for Scotland. Does it have
:12:16. > :12:26.to be fit all? Andy Murray is still on the hunt for the Open tennis
:12:26. > :12:27.
:12:27. > :12:29.championship. With me now is Tom English, sports
:12:29. > :12:32.writer with the Scotsman and Scotland on Sunday. And Professor
:12:32. > :12:42.Raymond Boyle from Glasgow University who has written on the
:12:42. > :12:43.
:12:43. > :12:48.cultural impact of sport on society. It you would be key you would be it
:12:48. > :12:53.that has been vilified sooner rather than later. A I think he has
:12:53. > :12:57.a lot of support out there. He has the track record to make you
:12:57. > :13:02.believe that better times ahead. He has the charisma to galvanise the
:13:02. > :13:06.sport. Has he got the players to make that happen? I think the
:13:06. > :13:11.players are better than they are showing. The results have been very
:13:11. > :13:16.sure that -- have been very poor. They can be better than that. Craig
:13:16. > :13:21.Levein did a very poor job, the players are better than that.
:13:21. > :13:27.it matter whether the Scottish football team is any good? I think
:13:27. > :13:32.it does because all national teams resonate beyond their sport. When
:13:32. > :13:37.for example Ireland came back from the 1990 World Cup they was all --
:13:37. > :13:43.over one quarter of a million people in Dublin. There were not
:13:43. > :13:50.born quarter of a million football fans in the country at that time.
:13:50. > :13:54.It moves beyond the sport. In what sense? At the very basic level in
:13:54. > :13:58.the feel-good factor. That feel- good factor it may be pretty
:13:58. > :14:03.ephemeral. Unquestionably it makes a lot of people feel better about
:14:03. > :14:08.themselves. Scotland has not been suffering from lack of self-
:14:08. > :14:13.confidence since the Scottish parliament was set up. That entire
:14:14. > :14:17.period has seen fit all being rubbish. But there is an
:14:17. > :14:20.interesting correlation between the lack of success winner has been a
:14:20. > :14:25.parliament. Traditionally the notion has been that national teams
:14:25. > :14:29.become more important when there is a lack of a political voice. When
:14:29. > :14:35.there is a lack of an international projection of Scotland, for example,
:14:35. > :14:40.abroad. Since we have had the parliament of the Scottish team has
:14:40. > :14:49.been poor. And it does raise the question of whether the impact of
:14:49. > :14:54.that would be the same as it might have been in the 70s. What you
:14:54. > :14:59.think of this? On the national mood? What you think it matters
:14:59. > :15:04.whether sporting teams are good? course it does. If you look at the
:15:04. > :15:07.Grand Slam of 1990, at the whole country went mad. If you look at
:15:07. > :15:12.the national football team being a disaster for four or five years,
:15:12. > :15:22.when Scotland beat France in Paris, with that wonder goals, though when
:15:22. > :15:22.
:15:22. > :15:28.she went crazy. It does affect the mood. Isn't the Olympic affect
:15:28. > :15:32.wearing of already? Are you a sports journalist, who really
:15:32. > :15:37.remembers a less they are reminded of it that wonder goal against
:15:37. > :15:41.France? A lot of people would. A big a lot of people watching will
:15:41. > :15:46.remember that. They will remember where they wear. These things that
:15:46. > :15:49.in the mind forever. Politicians certainly want to remember it.
:15:49. > :15:53.There is a long tradition of politicians trying to feed off the
:15:53. > :16:00.sporting glory that might come. Sport is a very uncertain cultural
:16:00. > :16:05.form to look towards to have purely 6SN. Most teams take part and fail.
:16:05. > :16:10.But that does not stop politicians of all political persuasions tried
:16:10. > :16:15.to get a bit of the stardust from sporting success. It does it have
:16:15. > :16:19.to be fit all? Andy Murray? Football is so dominant in this
:16:19. > :16:22.country. Yet two choices you could build those harmed in and put
:16:22. > :16:27.tennis courts on it or you could hope that the national team could
:16:27. > :16:31.galvanise itself because that is where the fans are. Do you agree?