:00:09. > :00:12.more than you have already referred Tonight on Newsnight Scotland:
:00:12. > :00:15.Police Scotland takes over from local forces in a matter of weeks,
:00:15. > :00:20.but have the two men at the top really settled who's running the
:00:20. > :00:23.show? And: Here's what you could have won...
:00:23. > :00:26.We'll speak to the architect whose design for Glasgow's George Square
:00:26. > :00:36.was picked by the panel but rejected by the council, in favour
:00:36. > :00:38.
:00:38. > :00:42.4th good evening. The new Police Service of Scotland was meant to
:00:42. > :00:46.offer a slimmed-down a unified single force but a long-running
:00:46. > :00:50.argument about who controls finance and HR has resulted in a deal which
:00:50. > :00:56.has been called a jumble. The Justice Secretary was forced to
:00:56. > :01:00.step in on Friday to meet the police force and police authority
:01:00. > :01:03.and make them share the functions. They now have just nine weeks to
:01:03. > :01:09.make it work. To criminals, the slogan is a
:01:09. > :01:15.warning. To the public, and appealed for help. This campaign
:01:15. > :01:18.was also designed to send another message, originally run by Lothian
:01:18. > :01:22.and Borders Police, the aim is to seize the assets of those making
:01:22. > :01:29.money through crime. Significant this morning was the announcement
:01:29. > :01:34.it is being rolled out throughout central Scotland and Fife, an area
:01:34. > :01:38.seen to be designated East Command in the new police service. Public
:01:38. > :01:41.confidence in the police in Scotland is high. We do not take
:01:41. > :01:47.that for granted because it is founded on years and years of
:01:47. > :01:51.public service. This is an excellent example of identifying a
:01:51. > :01:53.very good practice, working closely with communities and making sure
:01:53. > :01:57.that the whole of the Police Service of Scotland benefits from
:01:58. > :02:02.this practice. This initiative is exactly the kind of thing the
:02:02. > :02:05.architects of the single police force would like to focus on on the
:02:05. > :02:09.run-up to April 1st, the date of the new service comes into
:02:09. > :02:12.operation. But in recent months, the PR message has been somewhat
:02:12. > :02:18.lost amidst all the talk about infighting at the very top. The
:02:18. > :02:20.most public sign of trouble emerged in November, when the two
:02:20. > :02:30.protagonists, Chief Constable Stephen House and Dick Emery, the
:02:30. > :02:32.
:02:32. > :02:36.chairman of the police authority, appeared here. What followed was
:02:36. > :02:41.characterise in some quarters as a turf war. The First Minister
:02:41. > :02:45.described it as creative tension. As the weeks swept by with no
:02:45. > :02:49.resolution, concerns bubbled to the surface, most recently during First
:02:49. > :02:53.Minister's Questions. Last time, the First Minister Laugher this off
:02:53. > :03:00.as creative tension. Since then the chief constable has called for
:03:00. > :03:03.fresh legislation and both sides have spent time fighting each other.
:03:03. > :03:08.I think it would be better given that the meeting is tomorrow to
:03:08. > :03:12.wait and see what actually happens. The outcome was a compromise. A
:03:12. > :03:17.structure that sees both men taking control of their own finance and
:03:17. > :03:24.human resources teams. For UNISON it is an example of duplication in
:03:24. > :03:30.a service created with efficiency in mind. They predict trouble ahead.
:03:30. > :03:34.Or we know is the high level deal is putting a sticking plaster over
:03:34. > :03:39.the problem. We will note -- and we know there are senior people in
:03:39. > :03:45.those functions working two parts of what is supposed to be the same
:03:45. > :03:52.organisation. That could cause tension and conflict. Legislation,
:03:52. > :03:58.however, is not a charge that the Justice Secretary accepts. We have
:03:58. > :04:01.got an agreement in principle. The devil is in the detail. But between
:04:01. > :04:05.hard work, faith and the outstanding leadership we have in
:04:05. > :04:09.Vic Emery and Steve House, we will get there. We will keep Scotland
:04:09. > :04:13.safe and keep the police numbers up and protect and preserve the terms
:04:13. > :04:17.and conditions of those who serve. The worry for the Police Federation
:04:17. > :04:22.is that a row about corporate governance, in their view end
:04:22. > :04:28.manufactured one, has obscured important issues. We have concerns
:04:28. > :04:32.about the voluntary redundancy scheme we are trying to operate.
:04:32. > :04:36.About being transferred up and down the country. These things seem to
:04:37. > :04:40.have been put on the back burner because we are having to sort out
:04:40. > :04:48.who is going to be responsible for what. So now we have clear lines in
:04:48. > :04:52.the sand in the so-called agreement, everybody can do their job. Smiling
:04:52. > :04:57.for the cameras, it seems the phoney war is over. But not
:04:57. > :05:02.everyone is convinced those around this table no the acid test is fast
:05:02. > :05:07.approaching. I am joined from Edinburgh by the
:05:07. > :05:11.SNP's Christine Grahame, convener of the Justice Committee, and from
:05:11. > :05:16.Aberdeen by Labour's justice spokesperson, Lewis MacDonald.
:05:16. > :05:22.Christine Grahame, we have this compromise deal. It is not exactly
:05:22. > :05:27.a good start for what is meant to be a slimmed-down service, is it?
:05:27. > :05:30.think it is very pragmatic but it is now clear the chief constable,
:05:30. > :05:34.as we all thought through Parliament and the committee, is in
:05:34. > :05:38.charge of all staffing that he requires, not just the frontline
:05:38. > :05:42.policing but backroom staff required for operational matters.
:05:42. > :05:46.That was really the centre of it. And the concern the committee had
:05:46. > :05:51.was that the staff were not having security knowing who they would be
:05:51. > :05:54.answerable to. We now know it is the chief constable. As for
:05:54. > :06:02.adjudication, of course Dick Emery as chairman of the board is
:06:02. > :06:05.entitled to have staff for the board. -- Vic Emery. It is not
:06:05. > :06:09.duplication, it is separate requirements. Are you assuring us
:06:09. > :06:12.that this will work? One thing the Justice Committee is intending to
:06:12. > :06:18.do and we were going to have a meeting this Wednesday if the two
:06:18. > :06:22.gentleman in question had not come to an agreement, we were putting
:06:22. > :06:26.pressure on as well to get to some common sense arrangement. But what
:06:26. > :06:36.we will do on Wednesday is we are going to have a meeting to discuss
:06:36. > :06:37.
:06:37. > :06:43.how we hold the SPLA and the chief constable to account -- the SPA arm.
:06:43. > :06:47.Lewis MacDonald, you backed the SNP when it came to these changes. You
:06:47. > :06:52.obviously very concerned about what is happening now. Do you regret
:06:52. > :06:55.seeing what happened? Very concerned indeed because what the
:06:55. > :07:00.Government promised in Parliament was operational independence for
:07:00. > :07:05.the chief constable. What we have instead is chaos and confusion of
:07:05. > :07:09.the worst kind. Adjudications certainly with two heads of human
:07:09. > :07:13.resources, two heads of finance, two legal and communication
:07:13. > :07:17.departments. It is bizarre. When you read the board papers on which
:07:17. > :07:23.this agreement is based, it talks about a customer provider
:07:23. > :07:27.relationship. I think that would be news to most MSPs by they voted for
:07:27. > :07:33.it or not when the bill was discussed only six months ago.
:07:33. > :07:37.Legislation, as the chief constable has so... You voted for it but have
:07:37. > :07:41.you crush scrutinised this effectively, should you perhaps not
:07:41. > :07:46.have been going for Kenny MacAskill to get involved earlier? Perhaps
:07:46. > :07:49.you should have, and recalled that debate in parliament in December.
:07:49. > :07:53.Kenny MacAskill stood up in that debate and said this will all be
:07:53. > :07:57.sorted this week. That was now a month ago. We were then told it
:07:57. > :08:01.would all be sorted last Friday. It does not seem to have been sorted
:08:01. > :08:05.at all. We have a ludicrous position where we have two people
:08:05. > :08:09.with two different post doing the same function for different parts
:08:09. > :08:13.of the service. If it is a customer provider relationship between the
:08:13. > :08:17.police board and the police service, what confidence can that give the
:08:17. > :08:22.public about the way in which the police service will be delivered in
:08:22. > :08:26.Scotland in the future? Very little indeed. We are looking for proper
:08:26. > :08:30.policing a proper accountability of the police service. Christine
:08:30. > :08:34.Grahame, the chief constable wrote your committee in December and
:08:34. > :08:39.called for a change in legislation. Do you think that perhaps he was
:08:39. > :08:45.right and perhaps now that is still needed? Chaos and confusion? It is
:08:45. > :08:53.not chaos and confusion. Lewis is just making his own opposition
:08:53. > :08:56.points and being sensational. I did not interrupt you. The operational
:08:56. > :09:02.independence of the chief constable is secured. The legislation was
:09:02. > :09:06.clear. We now have, of course they require a separate HR4 their own
:09:06. > :09:13.particular roles. These are almost picture threat -- separate from the
:09:13. > :09:17.Chief Constable -- the SPA must be separate from the chief constable
:09:17. > :09:21.because it is holding him to account. The parliament will hold
:09:21. > :09:26.the SPA and the chief constable to account. They could not have the
:09:26. > :09:30.same HR at the age of they have is for separate purposes. The real
:09:30. > :09:36.issue is who is going to be in charge of what we have called
:09:36. > :09:39.backroom staff, very unfairly, who are essential to policing. It is
:09:39. > :09:45.absolutely clear these are under control of the chief constable as
:09:45. > :09:51.they should be. If Kenny MacAskill had intervened earlier, he would
:09:51. > :09:53.have been accused of political interference. We will pick up on
:09:54. > :09:59.that point about the new legislation. Stephen House said it
:09:59. > :10:03.was needed. Our new laws still needed despite this resolution?
:10:03. > :10:05.chief constable and labour and other parties were indeed
:10:05. > :10:10.gobsmacked in November when we realised what holes there were in
:10:10. > :10:15.the legislation where the Justice Secretary had promised this would
:10:16. > :10:20.provide operational independence. You supported it. In actual fact,
:10:20. > :10:25.what we all discovered won the thing came forward was that it was
:10:25. > :10:30.open to the police board if it so wished to interpret this as a
:10:30. > :10:33.charter to have operational control of the police. There is a contrast
:10:33. > :10:40.between what is happening with the police with the Borders insisting
:10:40. > :10:44.on having its own HR and finance functions, different to the fire
:10:44. > :10:54.service where the legislation is virtually identical but the board
:10:54. > :10:54.
:10:54. > :11:01.of the fire authority has delegated Let's pick up on that point about
:11:01. > :11:05.the fire service? There were slight differences in the legislation
:11:05. > :11:10.because as IT and forensics would be under control of the S PA from
:11:10. > :11:13.the start, so there were differences. I'm glad that we have
:11:14. > :11:19.practically to where we want to be added many times, all of the
:11:19. > :11:23.practical things have been taking place, the commanders are in place,
:11:23. > :11:29.the local plan sarin place, we have a specific crime unit, that is what
:11:29. > :11:32.we need. We need to draw this to a close, we have run out of time.
:11:32. > :11:36.Many parts of Glasgow are being revamped ahead of next year's
:11:36. > :11:38.Commonwealth Games. The city's George Square was meant to be next.
:11:38. > :11:41.Architects had submitted plans for the re-development, but today the
:11:41. > :11:46.council pulled the plug. The embattled council leader said there
:11:46. > :11:49.would only be minor changes due to the level of public opposition. In
:11:49. > :11:52.a moment, I'll speak to a former leader of the council and the
:11:52. > :11:55.architect who's plans were picked by the panel, but rejected by the
:11:55. > :12:05.politicians. But first, here's our local government correspondent
:12:05. > :12:10.Jamie McIvor. As U-turns go, this was a big one.
:12:10. > :12:15.Glasgow City Council was keen on a radical revamp of the square, its
:12:15. > :12:19.leader, enthusiastic and ebullient in its support. It has been
:12:19. > :12:24.littered with over the years and it has lost coherence. We are left
:12:24. > :12:29.with stuff like the red Tarmac which is oddly. By June it think
:12:29. > :12:33.anyone likes it like it is right now. An international design
:12:33. > :12:40.contest attracted submissions from us are away as Australia and
:12:40. > :12:45.America. The shortest winter and design to the public including
:12:45. > :12:53.statues and water features. It is going to look very different. But
:12:53. > :12:58.today, we have learnt it will stay much same. What is clear to me is
:12:58. > :13:01.that there was no consensus in this city for a radical redesign. People
:13:01. > :13:05.are essentially what the square that they know and love, but they
:13:05. > :13:11.wanted to be a lot better than it looks at the moment, which is what
:13:11. > :13:17.we will deliver. The statues will stay, the red Tarmac will go, but
:13:17. > :13:20.what about Gordon Matheson's red face? Less than one year ago, he
:13:20. > :13:25.was feted as the man who held Glasgow for Labour against a
:13:25. > :13:29.ferocious onslaught from the SNP at the council elections. But it has
:13:29. > :13:34.been an embarrassing few days for him. By Friday he had to apologise
:13:34. > :13:37.after allegations of indecency. Opponents will say that at the
:13:37. > :13:41.revamped YouTube were damaging politically if they have not
:13:41. > :13:44.already done so. I'm joined now by the former leader
:13:44. > :13:51.of Glasgow Council, Michael Kelly, and from London by the architect
:13:51. > :13:59.John McAslan who's design won the comptition but won't now be built.
:13:59. > :14:04.John, what is your reaction to what happens today? The first thing is,
:14:04. > :14:09.are scheme was not radical. It is not radical. It is quite
:14:09. > :14:15.traditional. It keeps the sculpture more or less in the same position
:14:15. > :14:21.and it retains and reworks the landscape and it gets rid of the
:14:21. > :14:29.tarmac. So I am just bemused by the whole thing, because it is really
:14:29. > :14:37.quite a traditional and understated scheme. I am perplexed by a cancer
:14:37. > :14:41.map as an's decision to pull the plug on the competition. - a crime
:14:41. > :14:46.perplexed by the counsellor's decision. Every good to him
:14:46. > :14:50.receiving end I said I would later, it speak to him about it. -- I have
:14:50. > :14:56.written to him perceived link. We developed it in the consultation
:14:56. > :15:00.with Glasgow people at would like to build it. Might you tried to
:15:00. > :15:05.seeks to compensation because you submitted these plans and spend
:15:05. > :15:09.time doing it, are you are looking for that, do you think? No, we're
:15:09. > :15:14.not seeking compensation, we want to build the scheme had that is
:15:14. > :15:20.what we intend to do. We will not give up because there has been a
:15:20. > :15:23.political decision which is obviously what it is. Add it is a
:15:23. > :15:30.politically-motivated decision. We will engage and build this the
:15:30. > :15:33.scheme, I am determined of it. Michael, did Gordon Matheson's
:15:33. > :15:39.private problems putting in a weaker position where he had to bow
:15:39. > :15:45.to public position? I do not think that his private life as anything
:15:45. > :15:49.to do with this decision. He did feel the build-up of public opinion
:15:49. > :15:55.against this and media opinion against this which built up despite
:15:55. > :15:58.the early consultation and. He has had two very big decisions, he has
:15:58. > :16:06.got to have pulled the Commonwealth Games and he has got to fight the
:16:06. > :16:10.referendum. He regarded this square issue as a bit of a skirmish that
:16:10. > :16:16.he wished he had got Gatlin to hand he's cutting his losses on this so
:16:16. > :16:20.that he can't work on other things. As his one-time giant as people
:16:20. > :16:26.want to come back and discuss it, it would be as I get that will
:16:26. > :16:33.dominate the Glasgow Media. It says that a political decision, do you
:16:33. > :16:38.think it was the right decision was back I think they made the wrong
:16:38. > :16:43.decision in not going for a plan with George Square. It needs to be
:16:43. > :16:46.revamped radically. I can see why this scheme will won it because it
:16:46. > :16:51.is a compromise at the best read the mind of the councillors, but
:16:51. > :16:55.they do not think it is radical enough. He is preserving the old
:16:55. > :17:00.and talks about traffic flows and talons to run the rain from the
:17:00. > :17:06.east to west. I would go back to square one and say what do we want
:17:06. > :17:11.this to do? Will it be an open space a republic space for daily
:17:11. > :17:17.use? Charm, you design, it may be was but radical enough, even
:17:17. > :17:23.depressing? Are there are degrees of appropriate this. I am from
:17:23. > :17:26.Glasgow and Dido the city well. My family is steeped in Glasgow
:17:26. > :17:34.tradition and my great grandfather wrote the history of Glasgow and I
:17:34. > :17:37.know the city probably as well as anyone. I have been in the square
:17:37. > :17:42.since a lad and I know it inside out. I think our scheme responded
:17:42. > :17:47.but just to my own views, but to what was appropriate. I think it
:17:47. > :17:52.was radical enough and it did not, it moved away from the brief. The
:17:52. > :17:57.brief which the counsellor was party to Bath for the removal of
:17:57. > :18:03.all of the sculpture, but we rejected it and we came up with a
:18:03. > :18:08.scheme that is absolutely right for Glasgow. It would be a joy to use
:18:08. > :18:12.it as a windy, Wednesday are in the middle of summer. We will pursue it
:18:12. > :18:19.and be well us give up. Michael, do you think Glasgow suffers from a
:18:19. > :18:23.lack of vision? Pulled Isabeau architectural heritage, is there a
:18:23. > :18:29.lack of vision? - but her bulldozing into a natural heritage.
:18:29. > :18:33.If you are to be an international city you need iconic buildings and
:18:33. > :18:39.sculptures. This is a chance to do something quite radical as just
:18:39. > :18:43.preserving yet, I do not think that is the answer. They should
:18:43. > :18:48.reconsider and go at to tender again and come up with a scheme
:18:49. > :18:55.that will draw international attention. This will not. Briefly,
:18:55. > :19:00.what would you're refer but would have? - but for you refurbishment
:19:00. > :19:08.have? So have the best architecture in the world has put his abated,