:00:05. > :00:07.Who are the New Scots, and what role do they have to play in the
:00:07. > :00:17.independence debate? Tonight we'll discuss with politicians, experts
:00:17. > :00:23.
:00:23. > :00:26.Good evening and welcome to the first in a series of special
:00:26. > :00:29.Newsnight Scotland debates. Tonight, we'll be hearing from members of
:00:29. > :00:31.Scotland's ethnic minority communities. They'll be quizzing
:00:31. > :00:36.two leading politicians on subjects ranging from the independence
:00:36. > :00:39.referendum, to Scottish identity, to our future in the European Union.
:00:39. > :00:41.Those politicians are the SNP's Humza Yousaf, who's also the
:00:41. > :00:45.Scottish Government's Minister for External Affairs and International
:00:46. > :00:50.Development. And he's joined by Ruth Davidson, leader of the
:00:50. > :00:55.Scottish Conservatives. I'm also joined by a panel with wide
:00:55. > :01:00.experience. They are: Gina Netto, an expert in identity and ethnicity
:01:00. > :01:04.at Heriot Watt University. Aamer Anwar, the well-known lawyer. Jakub
:01:04. > :01:08.Oszczepalinski, a journalist with a Polish-language online magazine.
:01:08. > :01:18.And Colin Lee. And he's the Scottish director for the Council
:01:18. > :01:25.
:01:25. > :01:29.for Ethnic Minority Voluntary Our questions come from our
:01:29. > :01:33.audience. Now, our first question is from Dr Nasar Meer.
:01:33. > :01:36.Many Scots like to think we are less racist and more tolerant of
:01:36. > :01:43.ethnic communities than elsewhere in the UK. Is that a complacent
:01:43. > :01:46.attitude, as Scotland's tolerance has yet to be stress-tested?
:01:46. > :01:50.I'd be interested in here the thoughts of some of our audience
:01:50. > :02:00.that have moved to Scotland from other countries. I will come to you
:02:00. > :02:03.
:02:03. > :02:07.in a moment but first Aamer Anwar. In 1986, I used to here nasty terms.
:02:07. > :02:12.I think Scotland is an inclusive community but the reality is that
:02:12. > :02:18.when it has been tested, there has always been a backlash. We have
:02:18. > :02:22.seen racist murders, we have seen our own Stephen Lawrence. But the
:02:22. > :02:27.response of the wider community has been positive. The concern I have
:02:27. > :02:32.is when you look across society, the words institutional racism are
:02:32. > :02:39.in the distance. You do not see black judges, police officers,
:02:39. > :02:43.senior ranking. It doesn't exist. Even after the airport attack in
:02:43. > :02:51.does go, everybody was in unity saying how wonderful it was, but a
:02:51. > :02:55.few months later we had the case, a terrorist case in court, and
:02:55. > :03:02.subsequently this terraced was released, and there was a backlash.
:03:02. > :03:07.There was Islam a phobia, and that is still there as part of the UK.
:03:07. > :03:11.But I blame the UK politicians for that. Well, I think in many ways
:03:11. > :03:18.leaving -- living in Scotland is more pleasant and conducive than
:03:18. > :03:25.living in some parts of England. Have you done both or from your
:03:25. > :03:30.research? From my research. I would have to say there is a danger of
:03:30. > :03:35.complacency. Although it might be very pleasant in some very middle-
:03:35. > :03:40.class neighbourhoods, the reality in some estates is that it is harsh.
:03:40. > :03:46.There is resentment towards new arrivals. And this is in areas
:03:46. > :03:51.particularly where there is areas of deprivation. But not confined to
:03:52. > :03:57.these areas. And also we know, we have statistics, the number of
:03:57. > :04:02.racial harassment, the number of incidents is increasing. Last year
:04:02. > :04:08.it was 10%, at 10% increase in racial harassment. Over 5,000 cases
:04:08. > :04:15.of reported harassment alone. And we all know that there is
:04:15. > :04:19.significant under-reporting as well as reporting. Let's bring in our
:04:19. > :04:26.audience. Who he has moved to Scotland from another country? Who
:04:26. > :04:32.has had that experience? The lady in the front row. Good explorers or
:04:32. > :04:34.not so good? Very good experience. Scotland is very welcoming. I have
:04:34. > :04:39.enjoyed the privilege of meeting very interesting people who have
:04:39. > :04:44.given me lots of opportunities to collaborate with them. Over the
:04:44. > :04:47.last two years, however, I have felt politically excluded from the
:04:47. > :04:52.current argument in the independence debate. That is why I
:04:52. > :04:57.am here tonight to see if we can go forward without. Thank you for
:04:57. > :05:01.being here. And the gentleman in the middle. I came to Scotland
:05:01. > :05:05.about 30 years ago and I have never looked back. I have become an
:05:05. > :05:10.integral part of the society and I have taken the traits of the
:05:10. > :05:14.Scottish people myself without realising it. The lady who said it
:05:14. > :05:20.is a very welcoming country, I agree with her. It is an integral
:05:20. > :05:25.part of our lives. Have you ever had a bad experience? I have. When
:05:25. > :05:30.I first moved to my home town, I had to get into fights to become
:05:30. > :05:36.initiated into society, but that is part and parcel of the car -- part
:05:36. > :05:42.and parcel of the culture. I have never seen a single incident of
:05:42. > :05:47.racial harassment. I work in the streets and I feel as safe as the
:05:47. > :05:54.next person. Ruth Davidson, could we become more complacent on this
:05:54. > :06:03.if we see ourselves as tolerant? Were do have to work hard at all
:06:03. > :06:10.levels to make sure we get past that. We would expect the blame to
:06:10. > :06:19.be put on the UK Government from yes campaign. There was a rise in
:06:19. > :06:24.racial crimes last year. It may be a case of more reporting, it could
:06:24. > :06:26.be a case of more crimes, so we shouldn't be too upset. Or it is
:06:26. > :06:31.fantastic about Scotland is the amount of work that goes on to try
:06:31. > :06:38.to bring people together. For example, our faith communities to a
:06:38. > :06:44.lot of work across Scotland. We were both at the same fund raiser
:06:44. > :06:48.last night. And you see through what goes on at the synagogues, the
:06:48. > :06:52.work that goes on in the mosques and churches, you see an awful lot
:06:52. > :06:56.of good work that happens across Scotland. And government should be
:06:56. > :07:01.given a pat on the back were a pat on the back is due. We talk about
:07:01. > :07:06.the attack on Glasgow airport. One of the finest things Alex Salmond
:07:06. > :07:10.did was make sure he got himself down to the mosque to say that
:07:10. > :07:16.Scotland stands with its communities. We are all Scottish
:07:16. > :07:20.and we all have a place. question mentioned stress testing.
:07:20. > :07:29.You felt perhaps Scotland's Torrance hadn't been stressed
:07:29. > :07:32.tested. What did you mean by that? The rhetoric is great. I think that
:07:32. > :07:36.Scotland's political leaders have been a model of inclusion and that
:07:36. > :07:41.is something that has to be recognised and celebrated but the
:07:41. > :07:46.policies haven't been there. When minorities have asked for things,
:07:46. > :07:55.and they haven't asked for Mark, whereas in England they have got
:07:55. > :08:01.faith schools and other things, in Scotland, that kind of thing has
:08:01. > :08:05.not been received or conferred. agree with the number of comments
:08:05. > :08:15.made here on the panel. You can never be complacent and we have had
:08:15. > :08:15.
:08:15. > :08:19.some difficult times. You can argue about the racial difficulties,
:08:19. > :08:29.every member of the ethnic minority has faced some kind of racial
:08:29. > :08:37.incident. In Scotland generally, because it is a numbers game, it
:08:37. > :08:41.may be, but it is welcoming and open. We do not have this idea... I
:08:41. > :08:44.wouldn't blame Westminster politicians as such, but my friends
:08:44. > :08:49.South of the border say that some parts of England, it can be a lot
:08:49. > :08:57.more difficult because the rhetoric is choose one identity over the
:08:57. > :09:03.other whereas in Scotland we say we support at the crab football team
:09:03. > :09:07.etc etc and that is enough to make you Scottish. Our from South of the
:09:07. > :09:13.border, they ask, are you Bangladeshi or British? They have
:09:13. > :09:17.to choose. That is not helped by the Westminster debate. Politicians
:09:17. > :09:24.have to take responsibility. It isn't easy hit if you want to
:09:24. > :09:29.attack multiculturalism. Actually, we have to be tempered. In Scotland,
:09:29. > :09:34.we have been good at that. anybody can be Scottish? If you
:09:34. > :09:39.feel Scottish, you are Scottish. was just going to say that with
:09:39. > :09:43.that the debate increasing about the future of Scotland in a
:09:43. > :09:47.referendum for independence, I think that ethnic minorities should
:09:47. > :09:54.take the opportunity of becoming more involved with politics. It is
:09:54. > :10:00.a wonderful opportunity for them. I think... I am the daughter of a
:10:00. > :10:04.Polish immigrant during the last war and certainly they were there
:10:04. > :10:08.are welcomed at that time and I am glad to say that today most people
:10:08. > :10:13.that I have spoken to have come into Scotland have been very well
:10:13. > :10:23.welcomed. I want to bring in another slightly different
:10:23. > :10:26.
:10:26. > :10:30.perspective in all of this. You have a follow-up question.
:10:30. > :10:32.There are many different identities in Scotland. Does the panel think
:10:32. > :10:36.that the each side of the referendum campaign properly
:10:36. > :10:45.recognises those identities? And are they successfully engaging with
:10:45. > :10:51.ethnic minority communities? well, let's develop that with Colin
:10:51. > :10:57.Lee. Interesting enough, we have done a piece of research on
:10:57. > :11:01.identity and how Scottish people actually relate to engage with the
:11:01. > :11:05.political process and to be honest a lot of people within the ethnic
:11:05. > :11:09.communities are very disengaged with politics and democracy
:11:09. > :11:13.generally because what they see is very much not part of being the
:11:13. > :11:22.democratic process in society in terms of how they relate to
:11:22. > :11:26.politics, in terms of role-models. There is no politicians... Not
:11:26. > :11:31.representative of diverse communities anyway. This is about
:11:31. > :11:39.politics and democracy generally which I think has to be a bit more
:11:39. > :11:44.engaging. And in terms of how they engage with young people. Do people
:11:44. > :11:49.reach out to those from Poland, from Eastern Europe as well as the
:11:49. > :11:55.black and minority ethnic minorities we touched on? Sort of,
:11:55. > :12:02.yes. Especially before the elections or before the referendum.
:12:02. > :12:08.We do get calls from politicians about running the story on the
:12:09. > :12:17.referendum. On a daily basis, we get Harbin any contact with
:12:17. > :12:25.politicians. But you have contact in this fairly early stage from
:12:25. > :12:33.both camps? Yes. We had both parties calling us up in the last
:12:33. > :12:43.couple of months. But normally it stops. As a website, we remain
:12:43. > :12:43.
:12:43. > :12:50.neutral. We are happy to put both forward. The lady in the front row.
:12:50. > :12:56.Yes Scotland is engaging with the ethnic minorities. Are you
:12:56. > :12:59.involved? I am. For us and one of the concerns for many of the
:12:59. > :13:04.minority communities is legislation coming out of Westminster
:13:04. > :13:06.particularly in relation to emigration. In 2012, there were
:13:06. > :13:09.nine Changes in Immigration Rules were applicants have found
:13:09. > :13:19.themselves submitting applications in terms of one category to find
:13:19. > :13:32.
:13:32. > :13:38.A of I know they are reaching a the community's right across Scotland,
:13:38. > :13:43.not just at BME communities but other white British communities
:13:43. > :13:49.that have in Scotland, we should not forget them. Other minority
:13:49. > :13:54.communities as well. I know it that in terms of the debate going
:13:54. > :13:58.forward, it is going to be a long debate, it is going to last well
:13:58. > :14:03.over a year and a half. Not this programme! No! We will try to
:14:03. > :14:09.engage with as many people as we can. What would your key message on
:14:09. > :14:16.the Yes side the and then on the other side? There is always more
:14:16. > :14:20.you can do, in terms of reaching out to all segments in society. The
:14:20. > :14:27.key message is, we're open to engage. We want to engage, and hear
:14:27. > :14:35.views. We will not shy away. It will be very tempting to assume
:14:35. > :14:38.that ethnic minority communities have a vastly different opinion.
:14:38. > :14:42.There are specific issues in terms of minorities. But it is important
:14:42. > :14:46.to realise that ethnic minorities have made a huge contributor seat -
:14:46. > :14:51.- contribution to Scotland through businesses and education, in fact,
:14:51. > :14:57.the punch above their weight. want to ask Ruth the same point,
:14:57. > :15:05.what we did the key message be? What we want is not vastly
:15:05. > :15:12.different -- what BME once is not vastly different. I think being
:15:12. > :15:17.part of the UK, or sitting at the top table in terms of NATO, it is
:15:17. > :15:21.about being a world citizen. Being part of a larger UK and all that
:15:21. > :15:30.entails is of benefit of people of Scotland no matter where they were
:15:30. > :15:35.born. Let's move on to another question, now. Under independent
:15:35. > :15:40.Scotland, should we have a more open or more restrictive
:15:40. > :15:44.immigration policy? I will leave the politicians, I am interested to
:15:44. > :15:52.hear what the audience think. Let's put that festival to you, Gina
:15:52. > :15:58.Netto. My view on that is not so much of the extent of immigration,
:15:58. > :16:03.but how ethnic-minority is within the country are treated. That has
:16:03. > :16:09.been my most -- main era of interest. There have been
:16:09. > :16:13.significant problems that remain to be addressed about how people who
:16:13. > :16:17.are in ethnic minorities are born and raised in this country and live
:16:17. > :16:21.in Scottish society, but they continue to struggle. As well as
:16:21. > :16:29.enjoying the many pleasures of being in Scotland. That has been my
:16:29. > :16:33.main focus of interest. My concern is in terms of looking, and in that
:16:33. > :16:35.sense, whether or not Scotland becomes independent or not, I think
:16:35. > :16:44.there are significant issues that the current Scottish government can
:16:44. > :16:50.address, because it has significant powers within... Sorry, that how
:16:50. > :16:55.devolved to Scotland. specifically on immigration.
:16:55. > :16:59.but there are a whole range, I suppose, my argument would be that,
:16:59. > :17:02.let's look at what Scotland is doing with its ethnic minority
:17:02. > :17:07.population now. Let's look at the strides they are making in terms of
:17:07. > :17:11.progress with dealing with ethnic minorities, who were in the country.
:17:11. > :17:16.A lot of people have moved to Scotland from Eastern -- Eastern
:17:16. > :17:20.Europe in recent years, and to date the UK government is looking at
:17:20. > :17:24.ways in which it can continue on restrictions from people coming
:17:25. > :17:30.from Romania and Bulgaria, for instance. Do you see that as a
:17:30. > :17:34.sensible measure? It all depends. We had some estimates about how
:17:34. > :17:38.many people came to the UK from Poland, they will wear off. There
:17:38. > :17:42.is a lot of scaremongering going on in Westminster are saying there
:17:42. > :17:47.will be half a million new immigrants coming into the UK, I
:17:47. > :17:50.read an art -- an article in the Guardian that highlighting their
:17:50. > :17:53.facts that many Romanians will go to Italy and Germany where they
:17:53. > :18:01.already have relatives. It is not as big an issue as with the Polish
:18:01. > :18:06.community. Let me bring in the Lady in the front row. I a good first of
:18:06. > :18:10.all -- I would first of all likely to separate the EU population to
:18:10. > :18:17.and non e u populations, they are very different. Am an immigrant
:18:17. > :18:23.from India on the point The point System. Will this goatish
:18:23. > :18:33.independent government honour -- will be independent Scottish
:18:33. > :18:48.
:18:48. > :18:53.government bona the UK -- on a the Picking up on those points. I will
:18:53. > :18:58.pick up on some of the points. The division question, it is about an
:18:58. > :19:02.independent Scotland, it will be more open and conclusive. --
:19:02. > :19:09.inclusive. The point of having control in an independent Scotland
:19:09. > :19:15.is we will be able to have make that system in the interests of
:19:15. > :19:22.Scotland. Does that mean it would be more open or more restrictive?
:19:22. > :19:27.It would be to do with the needs of Scotland. The need for Scotland is
:19:27. > :19:33.we need more skilled migrants, there are lot of institutions that
:19:33. > :19:37.sake we need more skilled migration. We have a demographic gap.
:19:37. > :19:44.Immigration at the moment has completely become a dirty word in
:19:44. > :19:49.the UK. Immigration is a two-way thing. We have migrants coming in
:19:49. > :19:55.but we have Scottish pensioners in Spain. Immigration and migration go
:19:55. > :20:05.hand in hand. Immigration is not decided in the best interest of the
:20:05. > :20:06.
:20:06. > :20:10.UK and Scotland. UK governments have this -- have made the
:20:10. > :20:14.immigration argument about what the right wing press or UKIP are saying.
:20:14. > :20:23.I think it is a little bit this ingenious, particularly if you
:20:23. > :20:28.think about the last government, -- disingenuous, I do not think there
:20:28. > :20:33.is migrant bashing from the right- wing press. A it is an ideological
:20:33. > :20:38.drive. We have to acknowledge how much Scotland has benefited from
:20:38. > :20:43.the amount of immigration we have here. In terms of all the immigrant
:20:43. > :20:48.groups we haven't gone and, the way they are classified, Everest -- we
:20:48. > :20:53.have in Scotland. They are likely to have a degree more. There are a
:20:53. > :20:59.higher proportion of people in management jobs. And particularly
:20:59. > :21:04.if you look at Colin's point, I remember the scare stories when
:21:04. > :21:10.there was EU enlargement, this number of Polish people that people
:21:10. > :21:14.said were going to come to Scotland. It has been nothing but positive. I
:21:14. > :21:22.think the majority of Scots would say that the Polish contributed,
:21:22. > :21:26.they are the largest and minority. It is fantastic. When it comes to
:21:26. > :21:28.Romanians and Bulgarians, do you, like Number Ten, want to look at
:21:28. > :21:33.ways of continuing with its restrictions or would you say from
:21:33. > :21:40.Scotland's point of view, we could do with some more? The restrictions
:21:40. > :21:43.were brought in in 2005 under the last Labour government survey --
:21:43. > :21:47.and they expire at the end of this year. There is a move, under the
:21:47. > :21:54.last government there were more than 2 million people neck migrants
:21:54. > :21:58.to the UK. That is a third of the UK -- population of Scotland. To be
:21:58. > :22:02.honest, I think there is less of an issue in Scotland and is in the
:22:02. > :22:07.rest of the UK, because the numbers and percentage of people who come
:22:07. > :22:12.and settle in Scotland is much smaller. So why not control powers
:22:12. > :22:17.so we have more flexibility in the system? Because I do not
:22:17. > :22:26.particularly want border post at the border. It is the worst type of
:22:26. > :22:33.scaremongering. That was tried by Lord John Reid in early 2000.
:22:33. > :22:36.want to bring in someone else. it Ruth talks about, we have to
:22:36. > :22:40.welcome the contribution of ethnic minorities, it reminds me of when
:22:40. > :22:45.people say, and some of my best friends are black. A set of UK
:22:45. > :22:48.governments have pandered to racism and the far right by continually
:22:48. > :22:52.raising the race card and the immigrant card. First the war it
:22:53. > :22:57.was the Jews, then the Irish, then the Asians, then Africans, then
:22:57. > :23:02.asylum-seekers, now eastern Europeans. So they keep reiterating
:23:02. > :23:06.that immigration is a problem -- is a problem. In Scotland, more people
:23:06. > :23:10.are leaving the country than 10 to becoming a. People who come into
:23:10. > :23:18.this country for the last 100 years have made massive contributions, so
:23:18. > :23:24.why not celebrate that? That is exactly what I just said. I wants
:23:24. > :23:29.to bring in people in our audience. In which case, after listening to
:23:29. > :23:33.what the panel has said, in which case I think after we have made a
:23:33. > :23:36.choice in the Independent referendum, we will be in a
:23:36. > :23:41.position when all the parties seem to agree that Scotland should be
:23:41. > :23:46.treated differently in a gust of population, whether we accept
:23:46. > :23:49.immigrants in this country. We are looking at a situation in this
:23:49. > :23:54.country where, independence referendum on not, we have to think
:23:54. > :24:01.as a nation, do we want to have? Are we able to contain many more
:24:01. > :24:04.migrants, and can make continue -- can they continue to contribute?
:24:04. > :24:07.Westminster has a population numbers problem, we do not have the
:24:07. > :24:14.same problem up here, maybe we could afford to have a few more
:24:14. > :24:21.bodies. Is it, how do we as migrants contribute to this
:24:21. > :24:31.country? Economic it, poultry and in every way? -- economic League,
:24:31. > :24:32.
:24:32. > :24:38.culturally and in every way? I want to touch briefly on asylum. Should
:24:38. > :24:45.the Westminster government of that amnesty to asylum-seekers leading
:24:45. > :24:53.this country? -- offer amnesty? Will the SNP government itself
:24:53. > :24:59.commit itself to a programme, if Scotland became independent
:24:59. > :25:05.tomorrow? That is one for the politicians. The idea of an amnesty
:25:05. > :25:09.for those claiming asylum in the country. For me, the issue is not
:25:09. > :25:14.about the amnesty. It is about... You are not in favour of an
:25:14. > :25:21.amnesty? We have never talked about a blanket amnesty. It gets my goat
:25:21. > :25:26.the fact that the UK BA, the Borders Agency, keeps finding this
:25:26. > :25:31.backlog of tens of thousands. you not find a way of clearing
:25:31. > :25:34.that? What we have to do in terms of asylum and, I am pleased at the
:25:34. > :25:38.BBC has recognised immigration as different to asylum because people
:25:38. > :25:42.sometimes equate the two. When it comes to asylum, we have to realise
:25:42. > :25:46.we have an inhumane system in the United Kingdom governments. We
:25:46. > :25:54.treat our animals better than we treat some asylum-seekers. We are
:25:54. > :25:58.talking about destitution in some places, you see it here in Glasgow.
:25:58. > :26:03.We also see the dawn raids happening, children being detained
:26:03. > :26:09.and taken south of the border. said no to an amnesty? I and
:26:10. > :26:16.shorter time. We can shake the system. You would not tell us what
:26:16. > :26:21.the system would be. It is all in the White Paper! I do not believe
:26:21. > :26:29.in a blanket amnesty, I would to correct Humza Yousaf, there are
:26:29. > :26:39.only about 2500, not tens of thousands. We inherited a a bad
:26:39. > :26:42.
:26:42. > :26:45.system. I said that the UK borage People are trying to make progress.
:26:46. > :26:53.When you look at achievements that a happening, some centres are shut
:26:53. > :26:57.so there are are no children being detained. So you just transfer them
:26:57. > :27:00.to England, take children in Scotland, that is a disgrace. You
:27:00. > :27:06.do not have it in Scotland, but we are better together because we can
:27:06. > :27:11.shut them up down south. It is frankly disgraceful. Neither of us
:27:11. > :27:18.believe in a blanket amnesty. you believe in charge attention?
:27:19. > :27:28.believe both that there is a good system. I do the questions, and it
:27:29. > :27:39.
:27:39. > :27:43.was not about Chau detention. I We have heard much in recent weeks
:27:43. > :27:49.about the UK's and Scotland's future relationship with the
:27:49. > :27:56.European Union. What is your vision of the European Union? Do you have
:27:56. > :28:02.a vision of how we should relate with the European Union? To let me
:28:02. > :28:12.be more specific. What will be independent Scotland's situation in
:28:12. > :28:13.
:28:13. > :28:17.the European Union are? And to be more specific, East European
:28:17. > :28:23.communities are worried whether their status changes in case
:28:23. > :28:26.Scotland becomes independent. Humza Yousaf. To say to the
:28:26. > :28:34.gentleman in the front, your biggest worry, when you think of
:28:34. > :28:39.the Polish community, anywhere between 70 have one-hundredth 1,000
:28:39. > :28:47.people work in Scotland. Scotland will continue its membership of the
:28:47. > :28:54.European Union. Undoubtedly? Absolutely. This is ridiculous.
:28:54. > :28:59.Irish foreign minister also you would have to reapply. We would not
:28:59. > :29:06.be outside the European Union. If you point to the directive where we
:29:06. > :29:12.would be outside the European Union. I can point to the exact one. I can
:29:12. > :29:20.go for the exact quote. You would have to reapply to join. We would
:29:20. > :29:25.continue membership! You would have to reapply. Can I just ask you, do
:29:25. > :29:30.you accept that with independence, the Scottish Government would have
:29:30. > :29:35.to submit a fresh application as a new state? It is about continued
:29:35. > :29:41.membership. Sir there would be no application? If you are not going
:29:41. > :29:47.to be out of the European Union for a single day, why would you have to
:29:47. > :29:51.reapply? Three foreign ministers and the head of the European
:29:51. > :29:58.Commission's say... They are not saying he would not be welcome but
:29:58. > :30:06.you would have to reapply. We are in a clear position. We negotiated
:30:06. > :30:11.terms. We you had a meeting with the European Union. Let me address
:30:11. > :30:15.the gentleman's point. When it comes to Eastern Europeans or the
:30:15. > :30:20.Polish community, for example, Scotland is not going to be outside
:30:20. > :30:26.of the European Union. Where was your legal advice for that? You
:30:26. > :30:31.don't have any. Your uncertainty does not exist with an independent
:30:31. > :30:38.Scotland but with the UK Government. It wants to repeat outside the
:30:38. > :30:45.European Union. We had a situation that if you want to Scotland in the
:30:45. > :30:53.European Union, you are better voting Yes in the referendum.
:30:53. > :30:58.me take up the point. First of all, we have a Scottish Government which
:30:58. > :31:03.found that it would not be in the European Union and it would have to
:31:03. > :31:10.reapply. You have got three President's all saying you would
:31:10. > :31:16.have to do that. It is just scaremongering. Are they
:31:16. > :31:19.scaremongering? I don't think people would believe that. About
:31:19. > :31:26.the UK Government position, David Cameron made it clear in his speech
:31:26. > :31:31.and when he was questioned at it at PMQs that he was campaigning to
:31:31. > :31:36.stay in a reformed European Union. He wants a better deal for the
:31:36. > :31:40.people, for Scotland, too. On this point what would happen if Scotland
:31:40. > :31:44.became independent, we have had various contributions, but what the
:31:44. > :31:48.European Commission has said is it would be prepared to set out in
:31:48. > :31:52.detail what would happen if the UK Government would ask the question.
:31:52. > :31:56.Do you support the Scottish Government and asking the UK to
:31:56. > :32:01.seek that advice so that we can know the position and the Christian
:32:01. > :32:06.and know what its status would be? I was under the impression because
:32:06. > :32:11.Nicola Sturgeon stood up and said she was not just seeking a meeting
:32:11. > :32:15.with just a man while Barroso but she was getting one. She was going
:32:15. > :32:18.to be able to do it anyway. Not only that but his deputy has to
:32:18. > :32:22.turn back and say we are not even meeting with the Scottish
:32:22. > :32:28.Government. They have peddled untruths, Ms information right from
:32:28. > :32:32.the start. The question is whether you could get the UK Government to
:32:32. > :32:37.do us all a favour and get the clarity we need for the purposes of
:32:38. > :32:40.this debate. We all want to know the answer! We have got the clarity.
:32:40. > :32:47.The head of the European Commission is saying they would have to
:32:47. > :32:55.reapply. How much clearer do you need it? Would you set out that
:32:55. > :32:59.prices in detail? He has said... I will quote you. If one part of the
:32:59. > :33:05.country wants to become independent, of course as an independent state
:33:05. > :33:09.it has to apply to the European membership according to the rules.
:33:09. > :33:16.OK, I want to bring in members of the audience on this, people who
:33:16. > :33:23.haven't spoken so far. I'm not worrying about Scotland whether it
:33:23. > :33:27.will stay in the European Union because after a few days of Mr
:33:27. > :33:32.Cameron's speech, I am wondering whether England will stay. Scotland
:33:32. > :33:37.will stay because the politicians want to stay in the EU. But Mr
:33:37. > :33:42.Cameron said something different. I am wandering about the English
:33:42. > :33:48.people wanting to be a part of the European Union. He is promising a
:33:48. > :33:51.referendum for the whole of UK. argument on a referendum in
:33:51. > :33:56.Westminster and with independence in Scotland, it is a worry, not
:33:56. > :34:01.just for Scotland and England but for the young people of the UK and
:34:01. > :34:07.within Scotland. I would like to know from both campaigns, what type
:34:07. > :34:10.of future will young people have in Scotland as either an independent
:34:10. > :34:14.country or within the United Kingdom? Because the work I have
:34:14. > :34:19.done with young people, there is a clear contrast between the policies
:34:19. > :34:24.that Scotland has for young people, particularly around unemployment.
:34:24. > :34:32.Do you think the European Union to mention matters? Absolutely. It is
:34:32. > :34:37.extremely important. The European Union... It has youth on a move,
:34:37. > :34:43.the Erasmus schemes, they are very important for the unemployed people
:34:43. > :34:47.in Scotland and England. And also those in colleges and universities.
:34:47. > :34:55.And in that a referendum in Westminster or the threat of that
:34:56. > :35:00.could be a danger for people in Scotland. On the European question,
:35:00. > :35:05.Jakub Oszczepalinski. Whether we should stay or not? The original
:35:05. > :35:11.question was about a vision. there are many different visions.
:35:11. > :35:21.We have the option for Scotland staying in the EU. Mr Barroso made
:35:21. > :35:26.
:35:26. > :35:33.a point about us reapplying. Will they still pay contributions?
:35:33. > :35:40.are some politicians have that same maybe. All the parties want to keep
:35:40. > :35:47.Scotland in the European Union whilst Mr Cameron gave yes campaign
:35:47. > :35:50.a huge gift saying maybe we should get out. Lots of people saying we
:35:50. > :35:55.should opt out as the United Kingdom. That will influence
:35:55. > :36:02.Scotland heavily and many people, at least come I have spoken to,
:36:02. > :36:06.they want to stay in the European Union. From what we can see,
:36:06. > :36:13.Scotland is clearly staying within that European Union but we will
:36:13. > :36:20.have to negotiate our weight in. Can I just say, it concerns me when
:36:20. > :36:24.you have Cameron talking about renegotiating because two. Stand-up
:36:24. > :36:30.for me. Repatriation at work. Undercutting wages and bringing
:36:30. > :36:33.back Clause... He wants to stay in. That means attacking workers'
:36:33. > :36:37.rights and taking us out of the benefits of the European Union and
:36:37. > :36:42.then there is the Human Rights Act. The scaremongering that has gone on
:36:42. > :36:45.by focusing on a couple of individuals to attack some
:36:45. > :36:50.legislation that has protected Refugees, workers' rights within
:36:50. > :36:55.this country, has protected women's rights, gender equality, he wants
:36:56. > :36:59.to do away with all of that and I would prefer to be in a independent
:36:59. > :37:04.Scotland rather than take a chance with an English government that is
:37:04. > :37:10.doing everything to scaremonger asked to leave Europe. Lady in the
:37:10. > :37:20.front. You would have to reapply to the European Union which means you
:37:20. > :37:22.
:37:22. > :37:32.might be asked to accept the euro. We are into our last few minutes. A
:37:32. > :37:33.
:37:33. > :37:39.final question. The last one is on the economy. It comes from this
:37:39. > :37:46.lady. Scotland enjoyed many benefits by being with the UK,
:37:46. > :37:53.especially during the recent years of economic downturn. Will we lose
:37:53. > :38:00.jobs and benefits if we leave the UK? Are I would be interested to
:38:00. > :38:05.hear from the audience but first of all to you. I would like to say
:38:05. > :38:09.that the situation in Scotland concerning the employing the ethnic
:38:09. > :38:18.minorities is very concerning. The statistics relating to those in
:38:18. > :38:22.managerial professions, a significant number of people are
:38:22. > :38:28.unemployed or are from ethnic minorities. As well as issues
:38:28. > :38:33.around under employment. So people doing jobs they are not actually
:38:34. > :38:38.commensurate with their qualifications. There is an issue
:38:38. > :38:46.of great concern as to what is happening in the UK and also in
:38:46. > :38:52.terms of representation again. It should show the way. We should be
:38:52. > :38:56.showing an example in terms of employing ethnic minorities,
:38:56. > :39:01.predominantly at the lowest levels of organisations were they tend to
:39:01. > :39:05.be disproportionately represented and at all organisation hierarchies.
:39:05. > :39:11.Of that is what we would like to see any government in power doing
:39:11. > :39:21.much more of, taking a proactive stance on these issues and not
:39:21. > :39:28.
:39:28. > :39:33.And they will Art Council be done on employing overseas in government
:39:33. > :39:43.bodies -- I think a lot can be done in terms of employing Epping
:39:43. > :39:46.
:39:46. > :39:50.One thing I do not get a clear picture of, we get a lot of
:39:51. > :39:55.policies from the SNP government in what they would do in terms of
:39:55. > :40:00.independence. One point that is probably missed from a lot of
:40:00. > :40:09.parties and the No campaign is, if Scotland was to beat independent,
:40:09. > :40:13.what other policies as government? Not negative about just know, but
:40:14. > :40:17.if independence is to come, what are the policies on immigration and
:40:17. > :40:22.foreign policies? I think that is something we would really like to
:40:22. > :40:26.hear put up if you were in the government, the SNP government will
:40:26. > :40:30.not be there forever. Are you going to take a lead from Westminster or
:40:30. > :40:38.be independent in your own party's? I will let them or we that into
:40:38. > :40:42.their aunties. -- I will let them put that into their answers.
:40:42. > :40:46.refugee Council have provided the basis of discussion of whatever
:40:46. > :40:54.happening -- whatever happened in the referendum concerning asylum
:40:54. > :41:00.and refugee issues. Have the people in political parties seen this?
:41:00. > :41:04.there and economic.? The economic points is that people who are new
:41:04. > :41:07.in this country have no ability to work, they are not allowed to work.
:41:07. > :41:12.And you believe they should be? They should certainly be able to
:41:12. > :41:21.fit into our society in a better way than happened at the moment.
:41:21. > :41:26.Gentleman over here. Regarding the economics, already the ethnic
:41:26. > :41:32.minorities are suffering under representation, especially in jobs.
:41:32. > :41:37.And if there is going to be an independent Scotland, the
:41:37. > :41:44.government has to prove to us that it will be better for them. What we
:41:44. > :41:48.are experiencing at the moment, as part of the United Kingdom, we talk
:41:48. > :41:55.about asylum and refugees, but we have not mentioned people who have
:41:55. > :42:02.got their documents with the Home Office. The UK board agency said
:42:02. > :42:07.they had 300,000 backlog. The government talk about cuts in
:42:07. > :42:13.spending. They were not looking at people being put under pressure,
:42:13. > :42:18.families and individuals. At the moment, epic minorities are
:42:18. > :42:22.suffering. And the government needs to let us know when it will be
:42:22. > :42:32.better on the other side, or we should continue with the devil on
:42:32. > :42:32.
:42:32. > :42:38.You will need to say he Harry will be better off with independence,
:42:38. > :42:43.but if Scotland remain in the UK, how would that be better? If you
:42:43. > :42:48.look at some of the things like corporation tax being reduced,
:42:48. > :42:52.hopefully down to 20%, a drop in unemployment, it is now 7.8% UK-
:42:52. > :42:56.wide which is lower than it was before the crash. This week, we
:42:56. > :43:03.have seen billions put on share prices because businesses are
:43:03. > :43:06.recovering. Today the FTSE 100 went though it -- went through the 6300
:43:06. > :43:10.mark for the first time since the crash. If you were in charge just
:43:10. > :43:18.in Scotland could do not make a better fist of it? You have got to
:43:18. > :43:22.see what you would get in the terms of size. If you look at something
:43:22. > :43:25.about like when you have shocks to the system, when you have a large
:43:25. > :43:29.financial institutions failing, being part of a larger unit means
:43:29. > :43:32.you can support shocks to the system and keep going. In terms of
:43:32. > :43:38.one of the point that was made about opportunities for young
:43:38. > :43:43.people growing up, we should also acknowledge where devolution is in
:43:43. > :43:47.this debate. Education is already devolved to Scotland so we are
:43:47. > :43:50.making decisions there. Things like having a Commonwealth these are so
:43:50. > :43:53.you can work abroad in Australia and New Zealand is something you
:43:53. > :43:59.get from the UK government and that is something a lot of young people
:43:59. > :44:06.benefit from. Scotland would have access for that as a Commonwealth
:44:06. > :44:11.country? We do not know. I tried to think about this and put the issue
:44:11. > :44:16.on the other faults, and see if Scotland was independent and were
:44:16. > :44:21.having a referendum to join the union, would you want to join the
:44:21. > :44:24.union that had a triple dip recession? That spends money on a
:44:24. > :44:29.tried and used it -- nuclear submarine is said of things like
:44:29. > :44:32.welfare? The welfare system is being decimated to the point where
:44:32. > :44:37.you are cutting the tax of the highest and richest in order -- in
:44:37. > :44:40.order to cut away from the disabled. The question was, if you want
:44:40. > :44:46.people to vote for independence, it cannot just be about being unhappy
:44:46. > :44:51.with what you have got now, you have got to persuade them there is
:44:51. > :44:57.something better than the corner. You don't spend �100 billion on
:44:57. > :45:00.nuclear Trident weapons. I am not here to say that if independence
:45:00. > :45:05.comes tomorrow we all hold hands and the sun will shine forever and
:45:05. > :45:10.we will get rid of all our problems. Will it be better or worse off?
:45:10. > :45:14.do not have a crystal ball. So you would not be able to give
:45:14. > :45:18.guarantees? In good times or bad times it is always better to have
:45:18. > :45:23.power in your own hands so you can make decisions in the interest of
:45:23. > :45:29.your people. That is what independence brings. Being in the
:45:29. > :45:35.UK is nine-nation, I am British and Scottish. Both sides of the debate
:45:35. > :45:40.can be carried away. Let's have the power in our own hands, so
:45:40. > :45:46.institutions like NHS and free education are not decimated. By a
:45:46. > :45:50.UK government he just cares not a jot about Scotland. You don't want
:45:50. > :45:56.housing benefit to be back on the same on both sides of the border?
:45:56. > :45:59.Communities better to have miles apart have the same? That is some
:45:59. > :46:02.of the Arden as you are going to hear a lot of in the course of the
:46:02. > :46:07.coming months running up to the referendum. Our time is over,
:46:07. > :46:11.although this is the first of a series of Newsnight Scotland debate.