:00:19. > :00:22.Welcome to Newsnight Scotland. We'll have more on today's
:00:22. > :00:24.extraordinary events at the Vatican and I'll speaking to a leading
:00:24. > :00:30.Scots Catholic who says Benedict's resignation was not shocking and
:00:30. > :00:36.that it was a good thing. But first tonight, how many experts
:00:36. > :00:41.does it take to win an independence referendum? The answer? Lots, it
:00:41. > :00:44.seems. The Unionists, in the form of the UK government, gave us two
:00:44. > :00:46.constitutional experts today. Their views? In the event of Scottish
:00:46. > :00:48.independence, the remainder of the UK would inherit all 14,000
:00:48. > :00:54.international treaties and membership of numerous global
:00:54. > :01:04.organisations. A blow for nationalists? Or only until the yes
:01:04. > :01:04.
:01:04. > :01:14.campaign find opposing experts? 17 No 7 and an international treaty
:01:14. > :01:15.
:01:15. > :01:20.is agreed between two estate. -- 1707. Scotland and England decided
:01:20. > :01:29.to share a parliament. 300 years on, if that union were to end, where
:01:29. > :01:33.would it leave the two estates? -- state. England and the other bits
:01:33. > :01:36.of the modern UK would inherit international treaties and
:01:36. > :01:43.membership rights but Scotland would be treated as an entirely new
:01:43. > :01:47.state. Scotland, once it is independent, will be in a position
:01:47. > :01:50.of inequality because it will be an independent state. United Kingdom
:01:50. > :02:00.will have the veto in the Security Council for example, and Scotland
:02:00. > :02:01.
:02:01. > :02:05.will not have. That is something long after the treaty of Union. The
:02:05. > :02:10.treaty of Union will not affect what happens now when and if
:02:10. > :02:14.Scotland decide to separate. It is only Scotland which is separating.
:02:14. > :02:19.The United Kingdom is not breaking up into four constituent parts.
:02:19. > :02:23.Scotland would be deciding to separating -- separate from the
:02:23. > :02:26.rest of the United Kingdom. Professor Crawford was one of the
:02:26. > :02:33.two constitutional experts to look at what a newly independent
:02:33. > :02:40.Scotland's relationship could be with international organisations.
:02:41. > :02:46.Also, who would inherit Britain's international treaty organise --...
:02:46. > :02:54.How about this treaty banning the discharge of projectiles from a
:02:54. > :02:59.hot-air balloons? What the 1877 agreement relating to slave trade
:02:59. > :03:04.and human sacrifice? -- what about. Maybe we need to look elsewhere.
:03:05. > :03:09.When Ireland split from Britain in 1922, Britain was the successor
:03:09. > :03:14.state. The UK Government's position is staggeringly arrogant. The idea
:03:14. > :03:18.that if Scotland votes democratically to be independent,
:03:18. > :03:22.the UK waters off with the rights of Scotland is left worth nothing,
:03:22. > :03:25.undermines any suggestion that when an equal partner within the UK at
:03:25. > :03:30.moment. It also begs the question, if that is true of rights, it must
:03:30. > :03:35.be sure of liabilities like the UK national debt as well. This is an
:03:35. > :03:40.opinion, certainly by m'learned experts, but there are other
:03:40. > :03:44.experts who take the opposite view. A process needs to one fold in this
:03:44. > :03:49.country where the expression of the Scottish people need to be -- needs
:03:49. > :03:56.to be confirmed in a referendum and if it is yes, and I think a pathway
:03:56. > :04:02.should be discovered for the independence of Scotland. Is it a
:04:02. > :04:05.case of taking a choice when it comes to constitutional law?
:04:05. > :04:10.Probably it is but the very act of questioning Scotland's status, if
:04:10. > :04:16.it becomes independent, is also to introduce uncertainty. The message
:04:16. > :04:20.today is, why not sit tight and enjoy the best of both worlds?
:04:20. > :04:24.have greater influence within the UK as well. As part of the United
:04:24. > :04:30.Kingdom, we play a unique and leading position in the world, as a
:04:30. > :04:35.member of the UN Security Council, the EU, NATO, the G8, the G20 and
:04:35. > :04:37.the Commonwealth. Membership of these organisations mean a vet who
:04:37. > :04:43.have significant influence over international decisions that affect
:04:43. > :04:48.us in Scotland. Scotland's place in the world would be ventilated in
:04:48. > :04:52.the course of the next 18 months. But ultimately, its international
:04:52. > :05:00.rights and obligations are as likely to be decided by raw
:05:00. > :05:02.politics as refined law. I'm joined now in the studio by
:05:02. > :05:05.Derek Mackay, the local government minister at Holyrood, and from
:05:05. > :05:15.Westminster by David Mundell, Scotland Office minister in the
:05:15. > :05:17.
:05:17. > :05:23.Coalition Government. Good evening. The SNP says near colonial attitude
:05:23. > :05:28.to Scotland's position as a nation and breathtaking arrogance, this
:05:28. > :05:32.opinion from the two academics. It's a bit of a shock to the
:05:32. > :05:35.dignity of Scots who saw themselves as a dignity -- equal part in the
:05:35. > :05:41.treaty of Union. I think that is what they were saying this morning,
:05:41. > :05:44.Andrew, but as the day has progressed and they read the
:05:44. > :05:48.opinion after they had released their press release, I think they
:05:48. > :05:53.came to a different view. This opinion by the world's leading
:05:53. > :05:58.expert on such matters of sex and the basis on which Scotland could
:05:58. > :06:01.move to independence. What I think the SNP don't like about the
:06:01. > :06:07.opinion is that it suggests that is quite a difficult thing to do
:06:08. > :06:12.because they would be placed in a position of having to negotiate
:06:13. > :06:18.14,000 agreements, having to set out Scotland's place in the world.
:06:18. > :06:24.I think that is possible if Scotland votes to do that but I
:06:24. > :06:28.think it is not straightforward. The suggestion that always seems to
:06:28. > :06:32.come from the SNP is that these things will be automatic, it would
:06:32. > :06:36.be straightforward to become an independent country. It's not. It's
:06:36. > :06:40.difficult. If the people of Scotland choose to do it, then it
:06:40. > :06:45.will happen but it is not straightforward. It is not
:06:45. > :06:53.straightforward, it's difficult. As the report authors say it it is
:06:53. > :06:57.your -- cure hope that Scotland can be... It's inconclusive. It's
:06:57. > :07:02.pretty damning for you. David Mundell is already trying to
:07:02. > :07:06.rewrite the report. Professor Crawford's own words is that it is
:07:06. > :07:11.not necessarily going to be difficult to renegotiate treaties,
:07:11. > :07:16.EU membership as possible and UN membership is straightforward.
:07:16. > :07:19.Incidentally, timescale from yes vote in the referendum to
:07:19. > :07:25.independence itself, he also described as realistic. Those
:07:25. > :07:28.comments are helpful. What we maybe don't agree with his some of the
:07:28. > :07:32.interpretation or misinterpretation from the UK government which is
:07:32. > :07:37.trying to spin it as quite a negative intervention when the
:07:37. > :07:42.thrust of the document is actually that it is possible. It is not
:07:42. > :07:46.going to be difficult. Talking about reinterpretation, the SNP put
:07:46. > :07:50.out a press release mentioning Professor Crawford comments about
:07:50. > :07:55.Europe. They missed out the Robert Key point that Scotland, as a new
:07:55. > :07:59.state will have to become a member of the EU by a treaty of accession.
:07:59. > :08:02.But key quote was missed out in the SNP press release. What you have
:08:02. > :08:11.also missed out in describing that is the point that Professor
:08:11. > :08:15.Crawford made which is because there is no... There is no
:08:15. > :08:19.precedent and therefore he could only speculate. That element of the
:08:19. > :08:23.report is pure speculation. Speculation from the academics and
:08:23. > :08:27.the President's they quoted, the examples were rather odd and
:08:27. > :08:32.inappropriate. They were colonial examples, for example they quoted
:08:32. > :08:42.Ireland which had a very different relationship with England compared
:08:42. > :08:48.
:08:48. > :08:53.with Scotland and the break-up of I do not think that is the case.
:08:53. > :09:01.The report examines the break up of countries in modern times. It looks
:09:01. > :09:06.set different circumstances and how those have been interpreted did.
:09:06. > :09:10.You come to the conclusion if Scotland was to be independent, it
:09:10. > :09:15.would be a separate state which would begin its journey in the
:09:15. > :09:24.world and start making relationships with lots of other
:09:24. > :09:29.countries. These things would not happen automatically. These things
:09:29. > :09:33.would not happen automatically. It would be difficult for you at local
:09:33. > :09:36.government. We will have time to do it properly. It will be great to
:09:37. > :09:43.have Scotland in a proper negotiating position. The report
:09:43. > :09:50.says the treaties, some of which are irrelevant, a reader does Ian -
:09:50. > :09:54.- the negotiating them would not be a major issue. It is by a
:09:54. > :10:02.renegotiation. That is the deal we should get from the Edinburgh
:10:02. > :10:07.agreement. We want a joint statement of processor based on the
:10:07. > :10:13.proposition we should share factual information. We can do that. What
:10:13. > :10:19.is undermining Scotland is the way some UK politicians tell us we are
:10:19. > :10:23.not equal in the UK. That is a proposition to which SNP object.
:10:23. > :10:28.are not equal, we are regarded as having nothing, we have to start
:10:28. > :10:34.with nothing. Does that apply to the share of the national debt?
:10:34. > :10:40.do not share that interpretation at all. That does not come through in
:10:40. > :10:48.the opinion. The opinion we have published in full so they can be a
:10:48. > :10:53.proper debate makes clear is what happens when you become separate.
:10:53. > :10:57.Scotland would become like that. There would be a negotiation
:10:57. > :11:04.clearly with the EU, with other international bodies, but there
:11:05. > :11:14.will be a negotiation within the UK as to what the share of assets and
:11:14. > :11:20.liabilities between Scotland and the rest of the UK would be. The UK
:11:20. > :11:25.Government cannot have it both ways. You cannot be just starting out and
:11:25. > :11:31.carry forward the national debt the UK has managed to accrue. We have
:11:31. > :11:35.strong opinions, legal opinions, academic opinions, that show is
:11:35. > :11:44.Scotland would be an equal success estate with the rest of the UK.
:11:44. > :11:54.That has been published by two academics. I look forward to these
:11:54. > :11:57.
:11:57. > :12:01.opinions are being published. Fundamental misunderstanding
:12:01. > :12:05.between the law in relation to institutions and how they are dealt
:12:05. > :12:11.with and the negotiations that would take up in relation to the
:12:11. > :12:15.break up of Britain, these are two different things. He is trying to
:12:15. > :12:20.conflate them. There will be a process of negotiation. That is
:12:20. > :12:25.what the SNP are saying. You say you want positive arguments. How
:12:25. > :12:29.can you say that when we heard you have shot his argument down in
:12:30. > :12:35.flames? We have said some of the interventions are helpful. The
:12:35. > :12:38.timescale is realistic. It is not a problem in terms of renegotiating
:12:38. > :12:43.treaties and membership of international bodies. They will not
:12:43. > :12:49.be too difficult. That is helpful intervention. We will have to leave
:12:49. > :12:55.it there. Thank you. The news of Pope Benedict's resignations for
:12:55. > :12:59.health reasons has been met with surprise. The head of the Catholic
:12:59. > :13:04.Church here in Scotland added his voice to those expressing sadness
:13:04. > :13:10.at the decision. Cardinal Keith O'Brien will be the only British
:13:10. > :13:14.Cardinal who can vote in the conclave. September 2010 saw the
:13:14. > :13:18.first state visit of a Pope to Britain. Draped in tartan, Pope
:13:18. > :13:22.Benedict began his tour in Edinburgh where he was greeted by
:13:22. > :13:26.around 200,000 people lining the streets of the capital. He then
:13:26. > :13:33.travelled to Glasgow and said an open-air mass in front of more than
:13:33. > :13:40.60,000 worshippers. This morning, as the news sent in, some of those
:13:40. > :13:46.who were there said prayers. I am sad. But if he is ill and ailing,
:13:46. > :13:56.he deserves a bit of rest. I wish him all the best and hope his
:13:56. > :13:56.
:13:56. > :14:01.health get better. God bless him. He became Pope in 2005, after the
:14:01. > :14:06.death of John Paul II. He was 78 at the time, one of the oldest new
:14:06. > :14:14.Pope's in history. Shortly after taking over, the church was
:14:14. > :14:18.buffeted by the scandal over child sex abuse by priests. This morning,
:14:18. > :14:23.he made the announcement during a routine gathering of cardinals in
:14:23. > :14:29.Rome. He told them he felt he was to alter to continue at the age of
:14:29. > :14:34.85. Even his closest aides were taken aback. But there has not been
:14:34. > :14:39.his resignation of a Pope in almost 600 years. Although unexpected,
:14:39. > :14:48.some of those who met him said it was not a total surprise. It is in
:14:48. > :14:54.the mould of the man. He is, for he is reserved and a small man
:14:54. > :15:03.physically, when he decides to do something, he really does do it. He
:15:03. > :15:08.thinks it through. He is quite surprising. Pope Benedict will
:15:08. > :15:12.officially leave the post at the end of the month. The boat -- the
:15:12. > :15:16.Vatican says a new Pope will be elected before Easter. There are no
:15:16. > :15:21.clear front-runners to take on the position. Whoever takes over will
:15:21. > :15:28.be expected to guide the church into a new era and inspire respect
:15:29. > :15:32.in new audiences around the world. A I am joined by John Haldane,
:15:32. > :15:38.Professor of Philosophy at St Andrews University and consultor to
:15:38. > :15:42.the Vatican Pontifical Council for Culture. Thank you for joining me.
:15:42. > :15:47.What was your reaction on hearing the news this morning? A great deal
:15:47. > :15:52.of Catholics were very shocked. Can it be a positive move for the man
:15:52. > :15:58.himself and the church? I have heard the word shocked used a lot.
:15:58. > :16:02.I was not shot. I did not expected but it did not come as a great
:16:02. > :16:07.surprise. Best match I was not shocked. He has done the right
:16:07. > :16:12.thing. He has been thinking about it for some while. In retrospect,
:16:12. > :16:16.one can see it, not being signalled, but he did not make a secret of the
:16:16. > :16:22.fact he considered if someone was ailing, they should consider that
:16:22. > :16:26.as Pope. It has been a difficult decision because he is conscious of
:16:26. > :16:30.the fact of this will create speculation of one sort or another.
:16:30. > :16:36.It has not been done before. He will judge correctly the pace and
:16:36. > :16:41.the demand on the this office are now so considerable and I would add
:16:41. > :16:46.to that the fact one aspect of the life of the church he has not been
:16:46. > :16:52.able to, as it were, address in the way it needs to be addressed is the
:16:52. > :16:57.internal management of the Vatican. He recognises somebody younger who
:16:57. > :17:02.is perhaps more acquainted with the ways of the world would be better
:17:02. > :17:07.placed to do that. You have met with him quite regularly. You go to
:17:07. > :17:15.the Vatican and see him there. How did you gauge his health when you
:17:15. > :17:24.saw him face-to-face? He has been a link. Audiences have been cut short.
:17:24. > :17:29.They have often been delayed. In the period when he visited Great
:17:29. > :17:34.Britain, at that stage, he was -- the planning had to live for three
:17:34. > :17:38.hours rest over the course of the day. He was having to conserve his
:17:38. > :17:42.energy. He has been committed to writing the reflections on the life
:17:42. > :17:46.of Jesus of Nazareth. He has completed that and it has been
:17:46. > :17:51.published. That was the plan. I think he feels he has done that and
:17:51. > :17:57.addressed certain matters in prayer. He has travelled, which he does not
:17:57. > :18:03.particularly like. He recognises that is it. He wants a bit of time
:18:04. > :18:09.at the end to recollect before what I think will not be many more years
:18:09. > :18:13.of life. This year was designated as the year of faith in attempt to
:18:13. > :18:23.the evangelise Europe. He was trying to fight socialism. How
:18:23. > :18:25.
:18:25. > :18:29.successful has it been? -- he was trying to fight secularism. Had he
:18:29. > :18:36.been struggling, I think he was beginning to struggle, he was
:18:36. > :18:39.walking with a stick, he was having difficulty getting out of chairs,
:18:39. > :18:48.audiences were curtailed, he was tired, that would become more
:18:48. > :18:51.apparent and I think he would have found himself failing to make
:18:51. > :18:56.commitments. It is better now the announcement has been made. There
:18:56. > :19:02.will be a new Pope by the end of March. That leaves the period for
:19:02. > :19:07.the new man to get out and try to address some of these issues. The
:19:07. > :19:10.larger issues will wait but the year of faith, whoever comes to
:19:10. > :19:18.that office will now throw themselves into it. We have been
:19:18. > :19:24.hearing a lot churches are being ripped apart by gay marriage, gay
:19:24. > :19:30.clergy, female ordination. How it will these issues be played out in
:19:30. > :19:40.the Vatican, particularly with the new man? Will they be looking for a
:19:40. > :19:43.
:19:44. > :19:48.reformer? Movement on these issues? We think of the office of Pope like
:19:48. > :19:52.the US President. The new man comes in with new policies. There does
:19:52. > :19:57.not work like that. These people see themselves as receiving what
:19:57. > :20:02.has been handed on and then handing it on intact -- handing it on
:20:02. > :20:06.intact. There will not be much change in that way. But are
:20:06. > :20:16.concerns that have filled the press are somewhat provincial when you
:20:16. > :20:22.
:20:22. > :20:32.look at the larger picture. One in six people on earth are a Roman
:20:32. > :20:32.
:20:32. > :20:42.Catholic. They will come to the 4th. These issues that we are obsessed
:20:42. > :20:42.