25/02/2013

:00:04. > :00:06.On the day Scotland's Roman On the day Scotland's Roman

:00:06. > :00:08.On the day Scotland's Roman Catholic cardinal resigned, we are

:00:08. > :00:09.Catholic cardinal resigned, we are Catholic cardinal resigned, we are

:00:10. > :00:19.debating what place, if any, or debating what place, if any, or

:00:20. > :00:23.

:00:23. > :00:24.debating what place, if any, or Hello and welcome to the second in

:00:24. > :00:26.Hello and welcome to the second in Hello and welcome to the second in

:00:26. > :00:27.a series of special Newsnight a series of special Newsnight

:00:27. > :00:28.a series of special Newsnight Scotland debates and when we chose

:00:29. > :00:30.Scotland debates and when we chose Scotland debates and when we chose

:00:30. > :00:32.the subject of tonight's discussion, the subject of tonight's discussion,

:00:32. > :00:33.the subject of tonight's discussion, we could not have imagined how

:00:33. > :00:35.we could not have imagined how we could not have imagined how

:00:35. > :00:37.topical it would become. First the topical it would become. First the

:00:37. > :00:38.topical it would become. First the Pope resigned and then this morning,

:00:38. > :00:41.Pope resigned and then this morning, Scotland's Cardinal Keith O'Brien

:00:41. > :00:42.Scotland's Cardinal Keith O'Brien resigned amid claims of

:00:42. > :00:43.resigned amid claims of inappropriate behaviour over which

:00:43. > :00:45.inappropriate behaviour over which inappropriate behaviour over which

:00:45. > :00:47.inappropriate behaviour over which he is seeking legal advice. We will

:00:47. > :00:49.he is seeking legal advice. We will he is seeking legal advice. We will

:00:49. > :00:49.discuss the consequences of the discuss the consequences of the

:00:49. > :00:51.discuss the consequences of the coddles decision and the wider

:00:51. > :00:53.coddles decision and the wider coddles decision and the wider

:00:53. > :00:54.coddles decision and the wider issue of the place of religion in

:00:54. > :00:55.issue of the place of religion in issue of the place of religion in

:00:55. > :00:56.modern Scottish life. Some argue it modern Scottish life. Some argue it

:00:56. > :00:59.modern Scottish life. Some argue it is being squeezed out by aggressive

:00:59. > :01:01.is being squeezed out by aggressive secularism, other so organised

:01:01. > :01:01.secularism, other so organised secularism, other so organised

:01:01. > :01:04.secularism, other so organised religion has no right to oppose it

:01:04. > :01:06.religion has no right to oppose it religion has no right to oppose it

:01:06. > :01:08.a deal on a largely irreligious a deal on a largely irreligious

:01:08. > :01:09.a deal on a largely irreligious society. To discuss this I am

:01:09. > :01:10.society. To discuss this I am society. To discuss this I am

:01:10. > :01:11.joined by the Reverend Sally joined by the Reverend Sally

:01:11. > :01:13.joined by the Reverend Sally Foster-Fulton who is convenor of

:01:13. > :01:15.Foster-Fulton who is convenor of Foster-Fulton who is convenor of

:01:15. > :01:16.the Church of Scotland's Church and the Church of Scotland's Church and

:01:16. > :01:24.Society Council. Professor John Society Council. Professor John

:01:24. > :01:26.Society Council. Professor John Haldane of St Andrew's University.

:01:26. > :01:27.Haldane of St Andrew's University. Haldane of St Andrew's University.

:01:27. > :01:28.Haldane of St Andrew's University. The Green MSP Patrick Harvie who is

:01:29. > :01:29.The Green MSP Patrick Harvie who is The Green MSP Patrick Harvie who is

:01:29. > :01:31.also a member of the National also a member of the National

:01:31. > :01:32.also a member of the National Secular Society and Harry Reid, a

:01:32. > :01:34.Secular Society and Harry Reid, a Secular Society and Harry Reid, a

:01:34. > :01:35.former editor of the Herald former editor of the Herald

:01:35. > :01:36.former editor of the Herald former editor of the Herald

:01:36. > :01:42.newspaper who is writing a book on newspaper who is writing a book on

:01:42. > :01:44.Scotland's relationship with religion.

:01:44. > :01:46.religion. religion.

:01:46. > :01:48.Let's go straight to our first Let's go straight to our first

:01:48. > :01:50.Let's go straight to our first question. It comes from Michael.

:01:50. > :01:51.question. It comes from Michael. question. It comes from Michael.

:01:51. > :01:53.question. It comes from Michael. Does the panel agree that we should

:01:53. > :01:54.Does the panel agree that we should Does the panel agree that we should

:01:54. > :01:55.suspend any judgment of Cardinal suspend any judgment of Cardinal

:01:55. > :01:56.suspend any judgment of Cardinal Keith O'Brien until the facts

:01:56. > :02:00.Keith O'Brien until the facts surrounding the accusations are

:02:01. > :02:03.surrounding the accusations are surrounding the accusations are

:02:03. > :02:05.surrounding the accusations are known? Sally, first of all. I think

:02:05. > :02:06.known? Sally, first of all. I think known? Sally, first of all. I think

:02:06. > :02:08.one of the most counter-productive one of the most counter-productive

:02:08. > :02:09.one of the most counter-productive one of the most counter-productive

:02:09. > :02:09.things we can do it is surmised. things we can do it is surmised.

:02:09. > :02:11.things we can do it is surmised. Sometimes we get just enough

:02:11. > :02:11.Sometimes we get just enough Sometimes we get just enough

:02:11. > :02:13.Sometimes we get just enough information to get the wrong end of

:02:13. > :02:14.information to get the wrong end of information to get the wrong end of

:02:14. > :02:15.the stick. The most important thing the stick. The most important thing

:02:15. > :02:17.the stick. The most important thing the stick. The most important thing

:02:17. > :02:18.we need to remember is on all sides we need to remember is on all sides

:02:18. > :02:19.we need to remember is on all sides we need to remember is on all sides

:02:19. > :02:20.of this there are people in pain of this there are people in pain

:02:20. > :02:21.of this there are people in pain and distress and worried and

:02:21. > :02:22.and distress and worried and and distress and worried and

:02:22. > :02:25.grieving, and the worst thing we grieving, and the worst thing we

:02:25. > :02:26.grieving, and the worst thing we grieving, and the worst thing we

:02:26. > :02:30.could do is prejudge. We need to could do is prejudge. We need to

:02:30. > :02:34.could do is prejudge. We need to step back and take the process.

:02:34. > :02:35.step back and take the process. step back and take the process.

:02:35. > :02:38.Patrick? For the certainly had to Patrick? For the certainly had to

:02:38. > :02:39.suspend judgment on these suspend judgment on these

:02:39. > :02:40.suspend judgment on these allegations. The wider point is at

:02:40. > :02:41.allegations. The wider point is at allegations. The wider point is at

:02:41. > :02:42.allegations. The wider point is at a time when some of the figureheads

:02:42. > :02:44.a time when some of the figureheads a time when some of the figureheads

:02:44. > :02:45.in the Catholic Church are changing, in the Catholic Church are changing,

:02:45. > :02:45.in the Catholic Church are changing, in the Catholic Church are changing,

:02:45. > :02:47.there is a glimmer of hope that there is a glimmer of hope that

:02:47. > :02:49.there is a glimmer of hope that there is a glimmer of hope that

:02:49. > :02:52.they could be a change of tone. The they could be a change of tone. The

:02:52. > :02:53.cardinal, way beyond these cardinal, way beyond these

:02:53. > :02:55.cardinal, way beyond these allegations, has been a relentless

:02:55. > :02:56.allegations, has been a relentless allegations, has been a relentless

:02:56. > :02:59.source of hostility to the equal source of hostility to the equal

:02:59. > :03:00.source of hostility to the equal rights of lesbians, gay men,

:03:00. > :03:01.rights of lesbians, gay men, rights of lesbians, gay men,

:03:01. > :03:05.bisexual and Trans gender people bisexual and Trans gender people

:03:05. > :03:07.bisexual and Trans gender people and I hope that will change.

:03:07. > :03:10.and I hope that will change. and I hope that will change.

:03:10. > :03:10.Professor, what do you think? Professor, what do you think?

:03:10. > :03:12.Professor, what do you think? question is whether we should

:03:12. > :03:13.question is whether we should question is whether we should

:03:13. > :03:15.suspend judgment. This is the kind suspend judgment. This is the kind

:03:15. > :03:18.suspend judgment. This is the kind of thing that happens within any

:03:18. > :03:19.of thing that happens within any professional organisation. There

:03:19. > :03:20.professional organisation. There professional organisation. There

:03:20. > :03:21.are processes for dealing with are processes for dealing with

:03:21. > :03:23.are processes for dealing with those and those processes are in

:03:23. > :03:25.those and those processes are in those and those processes are in

:03:25. > :03:26.hand and that investigation is hand and that investigation is

:03:26. > :03:29.hand and that investigation is proceeding. The allegations will be

:03:29. > :03:32.proceeding. The allegations will be fully investigated. Yes, that

:03:32. > :03:34.fully investigated. Yes, that fully investigated. Yes, that

:03:34. > :03:35.process had already begun. I think process had already begun. I think

:03:35. > :03:35.process had already begun. I think in the circumstances he has done

:03:35. > :03:37.in the circumstances he has done in the circumstances he has done

:03:37. > :03:38.in the circumstances he has done the right thing. In the face of the

:03:38. > :03:39.the right thing. In the face of the the right thing. In the face of the

:03:39. > :03:41.fact that as you mentioned there fact that as you mentioned there

:03:41. > :03:44.fact that as you mentioned there has been the resignation of the

:03:44. > :03:45.has been the resignation of the has been the resignation of the

:03:45. > :03:47.Pope, the imminence of a conclave Pope, the imminence of a conclave

:03:47. > :03:48.Pope, the imminence of a conclave Pope, the imminence of a conclave

:03:48. > :03:50.to elect a new pope. In these to elect a new pope. In these

:03:50. > :03:52.to elect a new pope. In these circumstances, to go to Rome under

:03:52. > :03:53.circumstances, to go to Rome under circumstances, to go to Rome under

:03:53. > :03:55.the cloud of these allegations the cloud of these allegations

:03:55. > :03:56.the cloud of these allegations the cloud of these allegations

:03:56. > :03:56.would not be helpful for him, it would not be helpful for him, it

:03:56. > :03:59.would not be helpful for him, it would attract attention, it would

:03:59. > :04:00.would attract attention, it would would attract attention, it would

:04:00. > :04:03.would attract attention, it would not be helpful to the church. If I

:04:03. > :04:06.not be helpful to the church. If I not be helpful to the church. If I

:04:06. > :04:07.could pick up Patrick's theme. could pick up Patrick's theme.

:04:07. > :04:08.could pick up Patrick's theme. There is one respect in that

:04:08. > :04:11.There is one respect in that There is one respect in that

:04:11. > :04:12.whatever else is said about this, whatever else is said about this,

:04:12. > :04:14.whatever else is said about this, there is one respect the archbishop

:04:14. > :04:14.there is one respect the archbishop there is one respect the archbishop

:04:14. > :04:16.there is one respect the archbishop has served his church well which he

:04:16. > :04:18.has served his church well which he has served his church well which he

:04:18. > :04:19.has been an iron evasive advocate has been an iron evasive advocate

:04:19. > :04:21.has been an iron evasive advocate of his teachings and those

:04:21. > :04:22.of his teachings and those of his teachings and those

:04:22. > :04:24.teachings are unpopular in some teachings are unpopular in some

:04:24. > :04:27.teachings are unpopular in some quarters and that is understood,

:04:27. > :04:28.quarters and that is understood, quarters and that is understood,

:04:28. > :04:30.quarters and that is understood, but I admire people, people who are

:04:30. > :04:30.but I admire people, people who are but I admire people, people who are

:04:30. > :04:31.forthright and clear in their views forthright and clear in their views

:04:31. > :04:32.forthright and clear in their views forthright and clear in their views

:04:32. > :04:37.forthright and clear in their views and I think for that he is to be

:04:37. > :04:39.and I think for that he is to be and I think for that he is to be

:04:39. > :04:41.given credit. Does that explain the given credit. Does that explain the

:04:41. > :04:42.given credit. Does that explain the cardinal has been accused by three

:04:42. > :04:43.cardinal has been accused by three cardinal has been accused by three

:04:43. > :04:45.cardinal has been accused by three priests and one a former priest of

:04:45. > :04:47.priests and one a former priest of acting inappropriately, the

:04:47. > :04:48.acting inappropriately, the acting inappropriately, the

:04:48. > :04:49.allegations date back to the 19 allegations date back to the 19

:04:49. > :04:51.allegations date back to the 19 eighties. The Cardinal we are told

:04:51. > :04:52.eighties. The Cardinal we are told eighties. The Cardinal we are told

:04:52. > :04:56.is contesting them and seeking is contesting them and seeking

:04:56. > :04:57.is contesting them and seeking is contesting them and seeking

:04:57. > :04:59.legal advice. Harry? I think we do legal advice. Harry? I think we do

:04:59. > :05:00.legal advice. Harry? I think we do have to suspend judgment. I take

:05:00. > :05:02.have to suspend judgment. I take have to suspend judgment. I take

:05:02. > :05:04.have to suspend judgment. I take the point, he has obviously been a

:05:04. > :05:05.the point, he has obviously been a the point, he has obviously been a

:05:05. > :05:05.forceful communicator and in been forceful communicator and in been

:05:05. > :05:07.forceful communicator and in been forceful communicator and in been

:05:07. > :05:10.forceful he has annoyed quite a lot forceful he has annoyed quite a lot

:05:10. > :05:11.of people. Interestingly, his of people. Interestingly, his

:05:11. > :05:12.of people. Interestingly, his sudden departure from the scene

:05:12. > :05:13.sudden departure from the scene sudden departure from the scene

:05:13. > :05:14.sudden departure from the scene will leave a gap. There is not

:05:15. > :05:16.will leave a gap. There is not will leave a gap. There is not

:05:16. > :05:17.going to be an obvious senior going to be an obvious senior

:05:17. > :05:19.going to be an obvious senior church person in Scotland to speak

:05:19. > :05:21.church person in Scotland to speak church person in Scotland to speak

:05:21. > :05:22.out as he has so controversially out as he has so controversially

:05:22. > :05:23.out as he has so controversially out as he has so controversially

:05:23. > :05:25.and clearly on so many issues. Dare and clearly on so many issues. Dare

:05:25. > :05:26.and clearly on so many issues. Dare I say, this possibly gives the

:05:26. > :05:28.I say, this possibly gives the I say, this possibly gives the

:05:28. > :05:30.Church of Scotland, which has been Church of Scotland, which has been

:05:30. > :05:30.Church of Scotland, which has been Church of Scotland, which has been

:05:30. > :05:31.very much in the background in the very much in the background in the

:05:31. > :05:32.very much in the background in the communications stakes, it gives it

:05:32. > :05:35.communications stakes, it gives it communications stakes, it gives it

:05:35. > :05:36.communications stakes, it gives it a chance to move to the forefront

:05:36. > :05:37.a chance to move to the forefront a chance to move to the forefront

:05:37. > :05:38.a chance to move to the forefront because I think many people in the

:05:38. > :05:41.because I think many people in the because I think many people in the

:05:41. > :05:42.Church of Scotland have frequently Church of Scotland have frequently

:05:42. > :05:44.Church of Scotland have frequently Church of Scotland have frequently

:05:44. > :05:47.worried why we do not have a worried why we do not have a

:05:47. > :05:48.communicator like coddle O'Brien? communicator like coddle O'Brien?

:05:48. > :05:49.communicator like coddle O'Brien? Do you agree with the First

:05:49. > :05:51.Do you agree with the First Do you agree with the First

:05:51. > :05:53.Minister that we should not read Minister that we should not read

:05:53. > :05:54.anything into the cardinal's anything into the cardinal's

:05:54. > :05:56.anything into the cardinal's decision to step down with

:05:56. > :05:57.decision to step down with decision to step down with

:05:57. > :05:58.immediate effect and not to travel immediate effect and not to travel

:05:58. > :06:00.immediate effect and not to travel immediate effect and not to travel

:06:00. > :06:01.to Rome to take part in the to Rome to take part in the

:06:01. > :06:03.to Rome to take part in the conclave? We should not read too

:06:03. > :06:04.conclave? We should not read too conclave? We should not read too

:06:04. > :06:07.conclave? We should not read too much into it. The very fact we are

:06:07. > :06:08.much into it. The very fact we are much into it. The very fact we are

:06:08. > :06:08.speculating about that means we are speculating about that means we are

:06:08. > :06:11.speculating about that means we are reading something into it. We

:06:11. > :06:12.reading something into it. We reading something into it. We

:06:12. > :06:13.reading something into it. We should just let that be. This is a

:06:13. > :06:19.should just let that be. This is a should just let that be. This is a

:06:19. > :06:20.time of turmoil for the Catholic time of turmoil for the Catholic

:06:20. > :06:22.time of turmoil for the Catholic Church. Clearly there are all the

:06:22. > :06:23.Church. Clearly there are all the Church. Clearly there are all the

:06:23. > :06:25.Church. Clearly there are all the stories of the Vatican, a new pope,

:06:25. > :06:26.stories of the Vatican, a new pope, stories of the Vatican, a new pope,

:06:26. > :06:27.stories of the Vatican, a new pope, now a new leader for the Catholic

:06:27. > :06:29.now a new leader for the Catholic now a new leader for the Catholic

:06:29. > :06:30.now a new leader for the Catholic Church in Scotland so I think the

:06:30. > :06:30.Church in Scotland so I think the Church in Scotland so I think the

:06:30. > :06:32.Catholic Church needs people to Catholic Church needs people to

:06:32. > :06:33.Catholic Church needs people to Catholic Church needs people to

:06:33. > :06:41.stand back and wait and see what stand back and wait and see what

:06:42. > :06:42.stand back and wait and see what happens. A great deal will happen.

:06:42. > :06:44.happens. A great deal will happen. happens. A great deal will happen.

:06:44. > :06:46.Last week Cardinal O'Brien said he Last week Cardinal O'Brien said he

:06:46. > :06:48.Last week Cardinal O'Brien said he Last week Cardinal O'Brien said he

:06:48. > :06:49.was going to go to Rome and contest was going to go to Rome and contest

:06:49. > :06:50.was going to go to Rome and contest the Church's adherence to the

:06:50. > :06:52.the Church's adherence to the the Church's adherence to the

:06:52. > :06:55.celibacy rule, which I thought was celibacy rule, which I thought was

:06:55. > :06:56.celibacy rule, which I thought was amazing news that celibacy after

:06:56. > :06:57.amazing news that celibacy after amazing news that celibacy after

:06:57. > :06:58.1,000 years of being church 1,000 years of being church

:06:58. > :07:01.1,000 years of being church doctrine was being called into

:07:01. > :07:04.doctrine was being called into doctrine was being called into

:07:04. > :07:06.question by a cardinal. Now very question by a cardinal. Now very

:07:06. > :07:08.old allegations, these have old allegations, these have

:07:08. > :07:10.old allegations, these have suddenly risen up and scuppered his

:07:10. > :07:12.suddenly risen up and scuppered his opportunity of us questioning

:07:12. > :07:13.opportunity of us questioning opportunity of us questioning

:07:14. > :07:15.celibacy. I find this very celibacy. I find this very

:07:15. > :07:17.celibacy. I find this very celibacy. I find this very

:07:17. > :07:19.disturbing. I am not paranoid but I disturbing. I am not paranoid but I

:07:19. > :07:21.disturbing. I am not paranoid but I am wondering. A follow-up question

:07:21. > :07:22.am wondering. A follow-up question am wondering. A follow-up question

:07:23. > :07:24.am wondering. A follow-up question am wondering. A follow-up question

:07:24. > :07:26.from Bob Grant. De as the loss of a from Bob Grant. De as the loss of a

:07:26. > :07:26.from Bob Grant. De as the loss of a from Bob Grant. De as the loss of a

:07:26. > :07:27.Pope and a cardinal within a few Pope and a cardinal within a few

:07:27. > :07:28.Pope and a cardinal within a few Pope and a cardinal within a few

:07:28. > :07:30.days indicate the start of a new days indicate the start of a new

:07:30. > :07:31.days indicate the start of a new beginning for the Catholic Church,

:07:31. > :07:32.beginning for the Catholic Church, beginning for the Catholic Church,

:07:32. > :07:37.beginning for the Catholic Church, or is it the beginning of its final

:07:37. > :07:39.or is it the beginning of its final or is it the beginning of its final

:07:39. > :07:40.demise? Professor John Haldane. You demise? Professor John Haldane. You

:07:40. > :07:41.demise? Professor John Haldane. You demise? Professor John Haldane. You

:07:41. > :07:42.are a people consult her. What do are a people consult her. What do

:07:42. > :07:44.are a people consult her. What do are a people consult her. What do

:07:44. > :07:45.you think? I do not think there is you think? I do not think there is

:07:45. > :07:48.you think? I do not think there is any chance of the Roman Catholic

:07:48. > :07:49.any chance of the Roman Catholic any chance of the Roman Catholic

:07:49. > :07:52.Church are going into demise. There Church are going into demise. There

:07:52. > :07:54.Church are going into demise. There Church are going into demise. There

:07:54. > :07:55.was a historian who spoke of her was a historian who spoke of her

:07:55. > :07:56.was a historian who spoke of her was a historian who spoke of her

:07:56. > :07:57.when the last doors of St Paul's when the last doors of St Paul's

:07:57. > :07:59.when the last doors of St Paul's had fallen, still the Catholic

:07:59. > :08:00.had fallen, still the Catholic had fallen, still the Catholic

:08:00. > :08:03.Church would be present. It has Church would be present. It has

:08:03. > :08:05.Church would be present. It has Church would be present. It has

:08:05. > :08:06.been around with us for 1,700 years. been around with us for 1,700 years.

:08:06. > :08:07.been around with us for 1,700 years. One in six of the world's

:08:07. > :08:09.One in six of the world's population are Roman Catholics.

:08:09. > :08:11.population are Roman Catholics. population are Roman Catholics.

:08:11. > :08:13.This is the oldest institution in This is the oldest institution in

:08:13. > :08:17.This is the oldest institution in the western hemisphere, but it is

:08:17. > :08:19.the western hemisphere, but it is undergoing transformation. The

:08:19. > :08:21.undergoing transformation. The undergoing transformation. The

:08:21. > :08:22.Vatican itself is a Renaissance Vatican itself is a Renaissance

:08:22. > :08:23.Vatican itself is a Renaissance Vatican itself is a Renaissance

:08:23. > :08:25.court. It is run on a basis that court. It is run on a basis that

:08:25. > :08:26.court. It is run on a basis that court. It is run on a basis that

:08:26. > :08:29.might have made sense in the 16th might have made sense in the 16th

:08:29. > :08:30.might have made sense in the 16th might have made sense in the 16th

:08:30. > :08:30.century but not in the 21st century century but not in the 21st century

:08:30. > :08:32.century but not in the 21st century century but not in the 21st century

:08:32. > :08:33.but one of the things a new pope but one of the things a new pope

:08:33. > :08:34.but one of the things a new pope but one of the things a new pope

:08:34. > :08:35.has to do is to reform the internal has to do is to reform the internal

:08:35. > :08:36.has to do is to reform the internal organisation and structure of the

:08:36. > :08:37.organisation and structure of the organisation and structure of the

:08:37. > :08:39.organisation and structure of the church, and I think we will begin

:08:39. > :08:40.church, and I think we will begin church, and I think we will begin

:08:40. > :08:41.church, and I think we will begin church, and I think we will begin

:08:41. > :08:43.to see that. If I could go back to to see that. If I could go back to

:08:43. > :08:45.to see that. If I could go back to the earlier remark about celibacy,

:08:45. > :08:46.the earlier remark about celibacy, the earlier remark about celibacy,

:08:46. > :08:48.the earlier remark about celibacy, in fairness, what he has said was

:08:48. > :08:49.in fairness, what he has said was in fairness, what he has said was

:08:49. > :08:50.in fairness, what he has said was not he was going to Rome to

:08:50. > :08:52.not he was going to Rome to not he was going to Rome to

:08:52. > :08:54.challenge it, he expressed his view challenge it, he expressed his view

:08:54. > :08:55.challenge it, he expressed his view on the question of celibacy. I

:08:55. > :08:56.on the question of celibacy. I on the question of celibacy. I

:08:56. > :09:01.on the question of celibacy. I myself did so in an article a

:09:01. > :09:02.myself did so in an article a myself did so in an article a

:09:02. > :09:03.couple of months ago, but Pope couple of months ago, but Pope

:09:03. > :09:04.couple of months ago, but Pope Benedict himself had raised this

:09:04. > :09:06.Benedict himself had raised this Benedict himself had raised this

:09:06. > :09:07.question when he was Cardinal question when he was Cardinal

:09:07. > :09:08.question when he was Cardinal question when he was Cardinal

:09:08. > :09:10.Ratzinger. It is a matter that is Ratzinger. It is a matter that is

:09:10. > :09:16.Ratzinger. It is a matter that is under discussion in the Church.

:09:16. > :09:18.under discussion in the Church. under discussion in the Church.

:09:18. > :09:19.under discussion in the Church. Where the cardinal Ed was in saying

:09:19. > :09:20.Where the cardinal Ed was in saying Where the cardinal Ed was in saying

:09:20. > :09:22.what might be considered or should what might be considered or should

:09:22. > :09:24.what might be considered or should be open to consideration was the

:09:24. > :09:25.be open to consideration was the be open to consideration was the

:09:25. > :09:26.idea that clergy could marry. That idea that clergy could marry. That

:09:26. > :09:28.idea that clergy could marry. That idea that clergy could marry. That

:09:29. > :09:31.was never a part of the Western was never a part of the Western

:09:31. > :09:32.Christian tradition or Eastern Christian tradition or Eastern

:09:32. > :09:33.Christian tradition or Eastern Christian tradition. What I think

:09:33. > :09:34.Christian tradition. What I think Christian tradition. What I think

:09:35. > :09:36.Christian tradition. What I think is open to discussion is the idea

:09:36. > :09:37.is open to discussion is the idea is open to discussion is the idea

:09:37. > :09:44.that married men may be ordained that married men may be ordained

:09:44. > :09:45.that married men may be ordained that married men may be ordained

:09:45. > :09:47.into the ministry. I want to stick into the ministry. I want to stick

:09:47. > :09:50.into the ministry. I want to stick into the ministry. I want to stick

:09:50. > :09:51.with the point of the question just with the point of the question just

:09:51. > :09:53.with the point of the question just asked about whether there is a

:09:53. > :09:53.asked about whether there is a asked about whether there is a

:09:53. > :09:54.asked about whether there is a crisis for the Church. I want to

:09:54. > :09:56.crisis for the Church. I want to crisis for the Church. I want to

:09:56. > :09:57.crisis for the Church. I want to hear from you if you are coming at

:09:57. > :10:00.hear from you if you are coming at hear from you if you are coming at

:10:00. > :10:02.this from a Catholic background. this from a Catholic background.

:10:02. > :10:03.this from a Catholic background. Michael, what was the atmosphere

:10:03. > :10:05.Michael, what was the atmosphere Michael, what was the atmosphere

:10:05. > :10:07.like at mass way you'll were like at mass way you'll were

:10:07. > :10:09.like at mass way you'll were like at mass way you'll were

:10:09. > :10:10.yesterday? The same as it ever is. yesterday? The same as it ever is.

:10:10. > :10:13.yesterday? The same as it ever is. We listened to an articulate

:10:13. > :10:15.We listened to an articulate We listened to an articulate

:10:15. > :10:17.exposition of the Gospel from the exposition of the Gospel from the

:10:17. > :10:18.exposition of the Gospel from the local parish priest. He mentioned

:10:18. > :10:19.local parish priest. He mentioned local parish priest. He mentioned

:10:19. > :10:23.Cardinal Keith O'Brien in the Cardinal Keith O'Brien in the

:10:23. > :10:24.statements around marriage to statements around marriage to

:10:24. > :10:25.statements around marriage to explain any questions people might

:10:25. > :10:26.explain any questions people might explain any questions people might

:10:26. > :10:27.explain any questions people might have had, but they did not seem to

:10:27. > :10:29.have had, but they did not seem to have had, but they did not seem to

:10:29. > :10:32.have had, but they did not seem to be a great deal of turmoil among us

:10:32. > :10:33.be a great deal of turmoil among us be a great deal of turmoil among us

:10:33. > :10:34.the parishioners. Do you see best the parishioners. Do you see best

:10:34. > :10:36.the parishioners. Do you see best as a dangerous moment for the

:10:36. > :10:38.as a dangerous moment for the as a dangerous moment for the

:10:38. > :10:38.church either in Scotland or around church either in Scotland or around

:10:38. > :10:41.church either in Scotland or around church either in Scotland or around

:10:41. > :10:44.the world? Not in any great sense. the world? Not in any great sense.

:10:44. > :10:45.the world? Not in any great sense. the world? Not in any great sense.

:10:45. > :10:47.I think there is a personal tragedy. I think there is a personal tragedy.

:10:47. > :10:48.I think there is a personal tragedy. Victims have been identified all

:10:48. > :10:50.Victims have been identified all Victims have been identified all

:10:50. > :10:51.the cardinal himself is a victim, the cardinal himself is a victim,

:10:51. > :10:52.the cardinal himself is a victim, the cardinal himself is a victim,

:10:52. > :10:53.it remains to be seen what comes it remains to be seen what comes

:10:53. > :10:54.it remains to be seen what comes it remains to be seen what comes

:10:54. > :10:56.out of this, but in the grand out of this, but in the grand

:10:56. > :11:00.out of this, but in the grand scheme of things, church people

:11:00. > :11:03.scheme of things, church people scheme of things, church people

:11:03. > :11:04.scheme of things, church people will go on. Many people, the case

:11:04. > :11:04.will go on. Many people, the case will go on. Many people, the case

:11:04. > :11:07.that you practise your faith that you practise your faith

:11:07. > :11:08.that you practise your faith that you practise your faith

:11:08. > :11:10.despite the high rocky. I do not despite the high rocky. I do not

:11:10. > :11:11.despite the high rocky. I do not despite the high rocky. I do not

:11:11. > :11:16.think it matters a great deal on think it matters a great deal on

:11:16. > :11:17.any individual Catholic's life. any individual Catholic's life.

:11:17. > :11:19.any individual Catholic's life. Three cardinal celebrated Mass in

:11:19. > :11:20.Three cardinal celebrated Mass in Three cardinal celebrated Mass in

:11:20. > :11:21.Three cardinal celebrated Mass in my church on Saturday and I spoke

:11:21. > :11:21.my church on Saturday and I spoke my church on Saturday and I spoke

:11:22. > :11:23.my church on Saturday and I spoke my church on Saturday and I spoke

:11:23. > :11:24.with him at the end and he said to with him at the end and he said to

:11:24. > :11:25.with him at the end and he said to with him at the end and he said to

:11:25. > :11:27.me that I was to keep on carrying me that I was to keep on carrying

:11:27. > :11:29.me that I was to keep on carrying me that I was to keep on carrying

:11:29. > :11:30.the flag and I think now after what the flag and I think now after what

:11:30. > :11:32.the flag and I think now after what has happened that that message it

:11:32. > :11:33.has happened that that message it has happened that that message it

:11:33. > :11:35.has happened that that message it has happened that that message it

:11:35. > :11:36.means a lot, not just to me but to means a lot, not just to me but to

:11:36. > :11:38.means a lot, not just to me but to means a lot, not just to me but to

:11:38. > :11:40.all Catholics. It is time now for all Catholics. It is time now for

:11:40. > :11:41.all Catholics. It is time now for just ordinary Catholics to stand up

:11:41. > :11:43.just ordinary Catholics to stand up just ordinary Catholics to stand up

:11:43. > :11:45.and carried on carrying the flag. and carried on carrying the flag.

:11:45. > :11:46.and carried on carrying the flag. It is very important that we

:11:46. > :11:47.It is very important that we It is very important that we

:11:47. > :11:49.continue through this and get over continue through this and get over

:11:49. > :11:53.continue through this and get over this sad moment. How damaging is

:11:53. > :11:54.this sad moment. How damaging is this sad moment. How damaging is

:11:54. > :11:56.this sad moment. How damaging is this? It is very sad, it has come

:11:56. > :11:57.this? It is very sad, it has come this? It is very sad, it has come

:11:57. > :11:58.this? It is very sad, it has come this? It is very sad, it has come

:11:58. > :11:59.as quite a shock. It is a very sad as quite a shock. It is a very sad

:11:59. > :12:02.as quite a shock. It is a very sad as quite a shock. It is a very sad

:12:02. > :12:02.time but I do think we will get time but I do think we will get

:12:02. > :12:05.time but I do think we will get through this. As Professor John

:12:05. > :12:07.through this. As Professor John through this. As Professor John

:12:07. > :12:08.Haldane said, we have survived for Haldane said, we have survived for

:12:08. > :12:09.Haldane said, we have survived for Haldane said, we have survived for

:12:09. > :12:10.the last 2000 years so the Catholic the last 2000 years so the Catholic

:12:10. > :12:12.the last 2000 years so the Catholic church will still be here 2000

:12:12. > :12:16.church will still be here 2000 church will still be here 2000

:12:16. > :12:16.years from now. It will survive years from now. It will survive

:12:16. > :12:20.years from now. It will survive this crisis. What is your

:12:20. > :12:21.this crisis. What is your this crisis. What is your

:12:21. > :12:22.perspective, Harry? In two is perspective, Harry? In two is

:12:22. > :12:25.difficult to address these difficult to address these

:12:25. > :12:26.difficult to address these questions here in Western Europe

:12:26. > :12:26.questions here in Western Europe questions here in Western Europe

:12:26. > :12:27.questions here in Western Europe because we are by far the most

:12:27. > :12:30.because we are by far the most because we are by far the most

:12:30. > :12:31.because we are by far the most secular part of the world. I am

:12:31. > :12:32.secular part of the world. I am secular part of the world. I am

:12:32. > :12:34.certain the natural condition of certain the natural condition of

:12:34. > :12:35.certain the natural condition of humanity is to be religious,

:12:35. > :12:37.humanity is to be religious, humanity is to be religious,

:12:37. > :12:41.humanity is to be religious, certainly if you look at the world,

:12:41. > :12:43.certainly if you look at the world, certainly if you look at the world,

:12:43. > :12:44.most people are religious. This is most people are religious. This is

:12:44. > :12:46.most people are religious. This is most people are religious. This is

:12:46. > :12:47.a very secular society here so the a very secular society here so the

:12:47. > :12:48.a very secular society here so the Catholic Church, like all the other

:12:48. > :12:51.Catholic Church, like all the other Catholic Church, like all the other

:12:51. > :12:52.churches in this particular society, churches in this particular society,

:12:52. > :12:53.churches in this particular society, struggled. Does it matter now that

:12:53. > :12:55.struggled. Does it matter now that struggled. Does it matter now that

:12:55. > :12:58.there will be nobody from this there will be nobody from this

:12:58. > :12:58.there will be nobody from this there will be nobody from this

:12:58. > :13:00.country or the wider UK in the country or the wider UK in the

:13:00. > :13:01.country or the wider UK in the country or the wider UK in the

:13:01. > :13:02.conclave? In it does not matter at conclave? In it does not matter at

:13:02. > :13:04.conclave? In it does not matter at conclave? In it does not matter at

:13:04. > :13:08.all. I do not think in the greater all. I do not think in the greater

:13:08. > :13:09.all. I do not think in the greater all. I do not think in the greater

:13:09. > :13:13.scheme of things, I think in away scheme of things, I think in away

:13:13. > :13:14.scheme of things, I think in away more importantly I wonder if Europe

:13:14. > :13:15.more importantly I wonder if Europe more importantly I wonder if Europe

:13:15. > :13:16.is all that significant. There are is all that significant. There are

:13:16. > :13:21.is all that significant. There are so many Catholics in South the

:13:21. > :13:24.so many Catholics in South the so many Catholics in South the

:13:24. > :13:25.match, -- South America, Africa, match, -- South America, Africa,

:13:25. > :13:26.match, -- South America, Africa, match, -- South America, Africa,

:13:26. > :13:30.match, -- South America, Africa, Asia, it is high time we had a Pope

:13:30. > :13:31.Asia, it is high time we had a Pope Asia, it is high time we had a Pope

:13:31. > :13:32.who is not European. Padua, where who is not European. Padua, where

:13:32. > :13:36.who is not European. Padua, where does this leave the Catholic

:13:36. > :13:38.does this leave the Catholic does this leave the Catholic

:13:38. > :13:39.does this leave the Catholic Church? As someone who is not a

:13:39. > :13:40.Church? As someone who is not a Church? As someone who is not a

:13:40. > :13:43.religious and someone who is quite religious and someone who is quite

:13:43. > :13:45.religious and someone who is quite happy that we are becoming more

:13:45. > :13:46.happy that we are becoming more happy that we are becoming more

:13:46. > :13:47.secular and less religious, I am secular and less religious, I am

:13:47. > :13:49.secular and less religious, I am comfortable with that going further,

:13:49. > :13:50.comfortable with that going further, comfortable with that going further,

:13:50. > :13:52.comfortable with that going further, it is probably odd for me to be

:13:52. > :13:54.it is probably odd for me to be it is probably odd for me to be

:13:54. > :13:59.commenting on that. It would be commenting on that. It would be

:13:59. > :14:01.disappointing if the Catholic disappointing if the Catholic

:14:01. > :14:01.disappointing if the Catholic Church is still a very substantial

:14:01. > :14:02.Church is still a very substantial Church is still a very substantial

:14:02. > :14:04.Church is still a very substantial entity in the world, did not take

:14:04. > :14:06.entity in the world, did not take entity in the world, did not take

:14:06. > :14:07.this opportunity to start looking. this opportunity to start looking.

:14:07. > :14:08.this opportunity to start looking. this opportunity to start looking.

:14:08. > :14:09.I was hearing about some of the I was hearing about some of the

:14:09. > :14:10.I was hearing about some of the very radical things that the

:14:10. > :14:11.very radical things that the very radical things that the

:14:11. > :14:13.very radical things that the outgoing Pope wrote when he was a

:14:13. > :14:14.outgoing Pope wrote when he was a outgoing Pope wrote when he was a

:14:14. > :14:15.younger man, things I would have younger man, things I would have

:14:15. > :14:16.younger man, things I would have younger man, things I would have

:14:16. > :14:17.been unaware of when I was growing been unaware of when I was growing

:14:17. > :14:18.been unaware of when I was growing been unaware of when I was growing

:14:18. > :14:20.up that the Catholic church did not up that the Catholic church did not

:14:20. > :14:22.up that the Catholic church did not represent those ideas, that kind of

:14:22. > :14:23.represent those ideas, that kind of represent those ideas, that kind of

:14:23. > :14:25.represent those ideas, that kind of radical agenda. We are in a world

:14:25. > :14:27.radical agenda. We are in a world where many Catholics, including

:14:27. > :14:28.where many Catholics, including where many Catholics, including

:14:28. > :14:32.people very after it in the people very after it in the

:14:32. > :14:33.people very after it in the Catholic Church, are motivated by

:14:33. > :14:33.Catholic Church, are motivated by Catholic Church, are motivated by

:14:33. > :14:35.poverty and global justice and poverty and global justice and

:14:35. > :14:37.poverty and global justice and peace and humane treatment of

:14:37. > :14:38.peace and humane treatment of peace and humane treatment of

:14:38. > :14:39.asylum-seekers. Some of them Thea asylum-seekers. Some of them Thea

:14:39. > :14:40.asylum-seekers. Some of them Thea and barrister at the idea that

:14:40. > :14:41.and barrister at the idea that and barrister at the idea that

:14:41. > :14:42.their church is being represented their church is being represented

:14:43. > :14:45.their church is being represented with an agenda that is about

:14:45. > :14:47.with an agenda that is about with an agenda that is about

:14:47. > :14:49.finger-wagging. We are also going finger-wagging. We are also going

:14:49. > :14:49.finger-wagging. We are also going through a period of huge economic

:14:50. > :14:52.through a period of huge economic through a period of huge economic

:14:52. > :14:53.through a period of huge economic crisis and entering a period of an

:14:53. > :14:54.crisis and entering a period of an crisis and entering a period of an

:14:54. > :14:55.ecological crisis where the moral ecological crisis where the moral

:14:55. > :14:56.ecological crisis where the moral arguments about the kind of changes

:14:56. > :14:58.arguments about the kind of changes arguments about the kind of changes

:14:58. > :15:00.arguments about the kind of changes that our society have to go through

:15:00. > :15:00.that our society have to go through that our society have to go through

:15:00. > :15:02.that our society have to go through will be important, and if a church

:15:02. > :15:04.will be important, and if a church will be important, and if a church

:15:04. > :15:06.is not interested in that Dynamic is not interested in that Dynamic

:15:06. > :15:16.agenda of transformational change, agenda of transformational change,

:15:16. > :15:18.

:15:18. > :15:20.agenda of transformational change, The church, and not just the Church

:15:20. > :15:21.The church, and not just the Church The church, and not just the Church

:15:21. > :15:22.brick walls faiths are about brick walls faiths are about

:15:22. > :15:25.brick walls faiths are about transformation and coming to a new

:15:25. > :15:25.transformation and coming to a new transformation and coming to a new

:15:25. > :15:27.transformation and coming to a new way of being and in the search it

:15:27. > :15:28.way of being and in the search it way of being and in the search it

:15:28. > :15:30.is really important that week is really important that week

:15:30. > :15:30.is really important that week reform and in the Church of

:15:30. > :15:31.reform and in the Church of reform and in the Church of

:15:31. > :15:32.reform and in the Church of Scotland we are a church that is

:15:32. > :15:33.Scotland we are a church that is Scotland we are a church that is

:15:33. > :15:35.Scotland we are a church that is reformed and at the reforming so it

:15:35. > :15:36.reformed and at the reforming so it reformed and at the reforming so it

:15:36. > :15:38.reformed and at the reforming so it is about going back to what is the

:15:38. > :15:39.is about going back to what is the is about going back to what is the

:15:39. > :15:40.core business, what is really core business, what is really

:15:40. > :15:42.core business, what is really important and not? What is

:15:42. > :15:43.important and not? What is important and not? What is

:15:43. > :15:44.important is finding ways to love important is finding ways to love

:15:45. > :15:46.important is finding ways to love your neighbour, to forgive each

:15:46. > :15:47.your neighbour, to forgive each your neighbour, to forgive each

:15:47. > :15:49.other, instead of defending your other, instead of defending your

:15:49. > :15:50.other, instead of defending your corner to find common ground,

:15:50. > :15:51.corner to find common ground, corner to find common ground,

:15:51. > :15:52.corner to find common ground, because when we get so focused on

:15:52. > :15:53.because when we get so focused on because when we get so focused on

:15:53. > :15:54.because when we get so focused on defending our own answer, we do not

:15:54. > :15:55.defending our own answer, we do not defending our own answer, we do not

:15:55. > :15:56.defending our own answer, we do not listen to each other and if we do

:15:56. > :15:58.listen to each other and if we do listen to each other and if we do

:15:58. > :15:59.listen to each other and if we do not listen to each other, how do we

:15:59. > :16:00.not listen to each other, how do we not listen to each other, how do we

:16:00. > :16:01.begin that loving each other which begin that loving each other which

:16:01. > :16:03.begin that loving each other which begin that loving each other which

:16:03. > :16:05.goes to the core of the gospel? goes to the core of the gospel?

:16:05. > :16:07.goes to the core of the gospel? knew saying this is something that

:16:08. > :16:08.knew saying this is something that knew saying this is something that

:16:08. > :16:12.knew saying this is something that the individual has to do all the

:16:12. > :16:13.the individual has to do all the the individual has to do all the

:16:13. > :16:16.whole churches? Both. Religion is whole churches? Both. Religion is

:16:16. > :16:18.whole churches? Both. Religion is often personal but never private.

:16:18. > :16:20.often personal but never private. often personal but never private.

:16:20. > :16:21.Another question. It comes from Another question. It comes from

:16:21. > :16:24.Another question. It comes from LEAs laden, editor of the Scottish

:16:24. > :16:28.LEAs laden, editor of the Scottish LEAs laden, editor of the Scottish

:16:28. > :16:30.Catholic Observer. -- Liz Leydon. Catholic Observer. -- Liz Leydon.

:16:30. > :16:31.Catholic Observer. -- Liz Leydon. am interested in the panellists'

:16:31. > :16:32.am interested in the panellists' am interested in the panellists'

:16:32. > :16:33.am interested in the panellists' views on a pretty low angle. We are

:16:34. > :16:35.views on a pretty low angle. We are views on a pretty low angle. We are

:16:35. > :16:37.here to discuss the role of here to discuss the role of

:16:37. > :16:38.here to discuss the role of religion in modern Scotland and as

:16:38. > :16:42.religion in modern Scotland and as religion in modern Scotland and as

:16:42. > :16:43.someone who believes that religion someone who believes that religion

:16:43. > :16:45.someone who believes that religion exists here, their Mark Christian

:16:45. > :16:47.exists here, their Mark Christian exists here, their Mark Christian

:16:47. > :16:48.roots, there are other faiths, a roots, there are other faiths, a

:16:48. > :16:49.roots, there are other faiths, a great inter-faith movement, I would

:16:49. > :16:50.great inter-faith movement, I would great inter-faith movement, I would

:16:50. > :16:51.great inter-faith movement, I would like to say I believe we should be

:16:51. > :16:52.like to say I believe we should be like to say I believe we should be

:16:52. > :16:54.discussing what is the role of discussing what is the role of

:16:54. > :16:56.discussing what is the role of religion in modern Scotland, not if

:16:56. > :16:59.religion in modern Scotland, not if religion in modern Scotland, not if

:16:59. > :17:00.religion in modern Scotland, not if it has a role. I wondered what the

:17:01. > :17:02.it has a role. I wondered what the it has a role. I wondered what the

:17:02. > :17:03.panellists' views are Hombach. panellists' views are Hombach.

:17:03. > :17:04.panellists' views are Hombach. panellists' views are Hombach.

:17:04. > :17:05.well as our panel here we have well as our panel here we have

:17:05. > :17:07.well as our panel here we have representatives from many of the

:17:07. > :17:08.representatives from many of the representatives from many of the

:17:08. > :17:10.fakes in Scotland. Perhaps we will fakes in Scotland. Perhaps we will

:17:10. > :17:11.fakes in Scotland. Perhaps we will fakes in Scotland. Perhaps we will

:17:11. > :17:14.go to those from some of the other go to those from some of the other

:17:14. > :17:16.go to those from some of the other faiths represented here tonight. We

:17:16. > :17:18.faiths represented here tonight. We faiths represented here tonight. We

:17:18. > :17:19.faiths represented here tonight. We have a Buddhist nun who is with us

:17:19. > :17:19.have a Buddhist nun who is with us have a Buddhist nun who is with us

:17:19. > :17:23.have a Buddhist nun who is with us on the front row. What is your

:17:23. > :17:26.on the front row. What is your on the front row. What is your

:17:26. > :17:27.view? Scotland, although it is view? Scotland, although it is

:17:27. > :17:30.view? Scotland, although it is becoming more secular, it is also

:17:30. > :17:32.becoming more secular, it is also becoming more secular, it is also

:17:32. > :17:34.much more diverse, so religion is much more diverse, so religion is

:17:34. > :17:36.much more diverse, so religion is like -- religions like Buddhism, a

:17:36. > :17:37.like -- religions like Buddhism, a like -- religions like Buddhism, a

:17:37. > :17:39.minority, is still allowed to be minority, is still allowed to be

:17:39. > :17:40.minority, is still allowed to be here and is flourishing. Possibly

:17:40. > :17:42.here and is flourishing. Possibly here and is flourishing. Possibly

:17:42. > :17:44.here and is flourishing. Possibly because one of the main priests --

:17:44. > :17:44.because one of the main priests -- because one of the main priests --

:17:44. > :17:46.because one of the main priests -- tenets of prison is to work on

:17:46. > :17:47.tenets of prison is to work on tenets of prison is to work on

:17:47. > :17:50.oneself, and to be less judgmental oneself, and to be less judgmental

:17:50. > :17:51.oneself, and to be less judgmental of others, and if everybody did

:17:51. > :17:53.of others, and if everybody did of others, and if everybody did

:17:53. > :17:55.that, maybe that would bring a that, maybe that would bring a

:17:55. > :17:56.that, maybe that would bring a better world. The teachings of the

:17:56. > :17:57.better world. The teachings of the better world. The teachings of the

:17:57. > :18:00.better world. The teachings of the border can be... I think there is

:18:00. > :18:01.border can be... I think there is border can be... I think there is

:18:01. > :18:03.relevance here, they are as relevance here, they are as

:18:03. > :18:04.relevance here, they are as relevance here, they are as

:18:04. > :18:06.relevant here as in India 200 -- relevant here as in India 200 --

:18:06. > :18:07.relevant here as in India 200 -- 2000 years ago. People are very

:18:08. > :18:08.2000 years ago. People are very 2000 years ago. People are very

:18:08. > :18:10.2000 years ago. People are very much the same in terms of BET

:18:10. > :18:11.much the same in terms of BET much the same in terms of BET

:18:11. > :18:12.Psyche. Their culture and society Psyche. Their culture and society

:18:12. > :18:13.Psyche. Their culture and society might be different but minds are

:18:13. > :18:14.might be different but minds are might be different but minds are

:18:14. > :18:15.might be different but minds are the same. That is what we need to

:18:15. > :18:19.the same. That is what we need to the same. That is what we need to

:18:19. > :18:20.the same. That is what we need to work on. So whether we are talking

:18:20. > :18:22.work on. So whether we are talking about powerful church people,

:18:22. > :18:24.about powerful church people, powerful politicians, whoever it

:18:24. > :18:24.powerful politicians, whoever it powerful politicians, whoever it

:18:24. > :18:25.powerful politicians, whoever it may be, we need to look after

:18:25. > :18:29.may be, we need to look after may be, we need to look after

:18:29. > :18:32.ourselves and control our minds. ourselves and control our minds.

:18:32. > :18:32.ourselves and control our minds. ourselves and control our minds.

:18:32. > :18:34.ourselves and control our minds. And next to you... I am from the EC

:18:34. > :18:37.And next to you... I am from the EC And next to you... I am from the EC

:18:37. > :18:43.Council of Scotland and the Glasgow Council of Scotland and the Glasgow

:18:43. > :18:45.Council of Scotland and the Glasgow gurdwara. -- Sikh council. From a

:18:45. > :18:47.gurdwara. -- Sikh council. From a Sikh perspective, we absolutely

:18:47. > :18:47.Sikh perspective, we absolutely Sikh perspective, we absolutely

:18:48. > :18:49.believe in the personal element of believe in the personal element of

:18:49. > :18:51.believe in the personal element of believe in the personal element of

:18:51. > :18:53.faith but we also have a strong faith but we also have a strong

:18:53. > :18:54.faith but we also have a strong faith but we also have a strong

:18:54. > :18:55.element of being public. I wear a element of being public. I wear a

:18:55. > :18:56.element of being public. I wear a element of being public. I wear a

:18:56. > :18:58.turban on my head and back is a turban on my head and back is a

:18:58. > :19:00.turban on my head and back is a public statement about my values

:19:00. > :19:00.public statement about my values public statement about my values

:19:00. > :19:02.public statement about my values and the values of my community of

:19:02. > :19:03.and the values of my community of and the values of my community of

:19:03. > :19:05.justice and humanity. So we justice and humanity. So we

:19:05. > :19:06.justice and humanity. So we absolutely believe we have a role

:19:06. > :19:09.absolutely believe we have a role absolutely believe we have a role

:19:09. > :19:12.absolutely believe we have a role in the public. The gurdwara is a

:19:12. > :19:13.in the public. The gurdwara is a in the public. The gurdwara is a

:19:13. > :19:14.in the public. The gurdwara is a important example of this. We ran a

:19:14. > :19:20.important example of this. We ran a important example of this. We ran a

:19:20. > :19:22.important example of this. We ran a free kitchen every day of the week.

:19:22. > :19:22.free kitchen every day of the week. free kitchen every day of the week.

:19:23. > :19:24.free kitchen every day of the week. When we are facing one of the worst

:19:24. > :19:26.When we are facing one of the worst When we are facing one of the worst

:19:26. > :19:29.recessions that the world has ever recessions that the world has ever

:19:29. > :19:31.recessions that the world has ever seen and we have fake institutions

:19:31. > :19:32.seen and we have fake institutions seen and we have fake institutions

:19:32. > :19:34.providing real daily needs for providing real daily needs for

:19:34. > :19:35.providing real daily needs for families within the South Side of

:19:35. > :19:37.families within the South Side of families within the South Side of

:19:37. > :19:38.Glasgow, basic needs such as food, Glasgow, basic needs such as food,

:19:38. > :19:39.Glasgow, basic needs such as food, Glasgow, basic needs such as food,

:19:39. > :19:42.then a public role for faith is then a public role for faith is

:19:42. > :19:44.then a public role for faith is very, very important. And a

:19:44. > :19:49.very, very important. And a representative from the humanist

:19:49. > :19:50.representative from the humanist representative from the humanist

:19:50. > :19:51.representative from the humanist Society. Is that you? No, I am here

:19:51. > :19:52.Society. Is that you? No, I am here Society. Is that you? No, I am here

:19:52. > :19:54.Society. Is that you? No, I am here as the average man in the street.

:19:54. > :19:55.as the average man in the street. as the average man in the street.

:19:55. > :19:57.as the average man in the street. We had year earlier. I am the vice-

:19:57. > :19:58.We had year earlier. I am the vice- We had year earlier. I am the vice-

:19:58. > :19:58.chair of humanist Society and I chair of humanist Society and I

:19:58. > :20:01.chair of humanist Society and I chair of humanist Society and I

:20:01. > :20:02.think the key here that we are all think the key here that we are all

:20:02. > :20:04.think the key here that we are all talking about is a secular society,

:20:04. > :20:05.talking about is a secular society, talking about is a secular society,

:20:05. > :20:06.talking about is a secular society, where the state takes note... It is

:20:06. > :20:07.where the state takes note... It is where the state takes note... It is

:20:07. > :20:08.where the state takes note... It is neutral when it comes to matters of

:20:08. > :20:09.neutral when it comes to matters of neutral when it comes to matters of

:20:09. > :20:11.police. That way everybody can have police. That way everybody can have

:20:11. > :20:12.police. That way everybody can have police. That way everybody can have

:20:12. > :20:14.police. That way everybody can have a say in an equal weight. I do not

:20:14. > :20:15.a say in an equal weight. I do not think any religious organisation

:20:15. > :20:16.think any religious organisation think any religious organisation

:20:16. > :20:17.think any religious organisation should expect to have a beer at the

:20:17. > :20:18.should expect to have a beer at the should expect to have a beer at the

:20:18. > :20:20.pass into the corridors of power pass into the corridors of power

:20:20. > :20:22.pass into the corridors of power pass into the corridors of power

:20:22. > :20:24.and as long as we do not have and as long as we do not have

:20:24. > :20:25.and as long as we do not have backed non-believers are happy. --

:20:25. > :20:29.backed non-believers are happy. -- backed non-believers are happy. --

:20:29. > :20:31.backed non-believers are happy. -- should expect to have a VIP pass.

:20:31. > :20:32.should expect to have a VIP pass. should expect to have a VIP pass.

:20:32. > :20:33.should expect to have a VIP pass. should expect to have a VIP pass.

:20:33. > :20:34.Do you think that is how it is at Do you think that is how it is at

:20:34. > :20:36.Do you think that is how it is at Do you think that is how it is at

:20:37. > :20:40.the moment, that they expect a free the moment, that they expect a free

:20:40. > :20:42.the moment, that they expect a free the moment, that they expect a free

:20:42. > :20:43.pass? Yes. If you ask about the pass? Yes. If you ask about the

:20:43. > :20:47.pass? Yes. If you ask about the place of religion in society and

:20:47. > :20:48.place of religion in society and Scottish Society, the social

:20:48. > :20:50.Scottish Society, the social Scottish Society, the social

:20:50. > :20:51.service aspects of religion, while service aspects of religion, while

:20:51. > :20:53.service aspects of religion, while there are important, they do not

:20:53. > :20:55.there are important, they do not represent religion has say.

:20:55. > :20:57.represent religion has say. represent religion has say.

:20:57. > :20:58.Humanists can be involved in Humanists can be involved in

:20:59. > :21:01.Humanists can be involved in providing comfort and indeed are so.

:21:01. > :21:04.providing comfort and indeed are so. providing comfort and indeed are so.

:21:04. > :21:09.What is distinctive about religion, What is distinctive about religion,

:21:09. > :21:10.What is distinctive about religion, you quoted in the English you

:21:10. > :21:15.you quoted in the English you you quoted in the English you

:21:15. > :21:19.quoted the, ever to be reformed quoted the, ever to be reformed

:21:19. > :21:21.quoted the, ever to be reformed slogan. But as you sit quite

:21:21. > :21:22.slogan. But as you sit quite slogan. But as you sit quite

:21:22. > :21:24.rightly... This is an injunction rightly... This is an injunction

:21:24. > :21:27.directed within every individual, directed within every individual,

:21:27. > :21:28.directed within every individual, directed within every individual,

:21:28. > :21:30.as it were, to examine oneself, but as it were, to examine oneself, but

:21:30. > :21:31.as it were, to examine oneself, but then the question is, reform

:21:31. > :21:32.then the question is, reform then the question is, reform

:21:32. > :21:33.then the question is, reform oneself in the light of what? And

:21:33. > :21:34.oneself in the light of what? And oneself in the light of what? And

:21:35. > :21:35.oneself in the light of what? And presumably in the light of what one

:21:35. > :21:37.presumably in the light of what one presumably in the light of what one

:21:37. > :21:39.presumably in the light of what one takes to be true and this is where

:21:39. > :21:41.takes to be true and this is where takes to be true and this is where

:21:41. > :21:41.religion goes back to offering one religion goes back to offering one

:21:41. > :21:45.religion goes back to offering one account of what fundamental truths

:21:45. > :21:47.account of what fundamental truths account of what fundamental truths

:21:47. > :21:49.are. Buddhism has a very particular are. Buddhism has a very particular

:21:49. > :21:50.are. Buddhism has a very particular are. Buddhism has a very particular

:21:50. > :21:50.take, and so particular is it that take, and so particular is it that

:21:50. > :21:51.take, and so particular is it that take, and so particular is it that

:21:51. > :21:52.there is even a question as to there is even a question as to

:21:52. > :21:55.there is even a question as to there is even a question as to

:21:55. > :21:56.whether it is a religion or a whether it is a religion or a

:21:56. > :22:01.philosophy. Judaism, for example, philosophy. Judaism, for example,

:22:01. > :22:03.philosophy. Judaism, for example, philosophy. Judaism, for example,

:22:03. > :22:04.is very different. It has its roots is very different. It has its roots

:22:04. > :22:05.is very different. It has its roots is very different. It has its roots

:22:05. > :22:06.in a belief in a covenant between a in a belief in a covenant between a

:22:06. > :22:09.in a belief in a covenant between a particular day tea and set of

:22:09. > :22:11.particular day tea and set of particular day tea and set of

:22:11. > :22:13.people. That is quite different to people. That is quite different to

:22:13. > :22:16.what Christianity might have... what Christianity might have...

:22:16. > :22:17.what Christianity might have... what Christianity might have...

:22:17. > :22:19.What do you say to the charges made What do you say to the charges made

:22:19. > :22:20.What do you say to the charges made by the secular society that somehow

:22:20. > :22:23.by the secular society that somehow by the secular society that somehow

:22:23. > :22:30.there is a privileged position in there is a privileged position in

:22:30. > :22:32.there is a privileged position in its -- in policy-making terms.

:22:33. > :22:34.its -- in policy-making terms. its -- in policy-making terms.

:22:34. > :22:36.its -- in policy-making terms. take it, the point you were making,

:22:36. > :22:37.take it, the point you were making, concerning something like the

:22:37. > :22:38.concerning something like the concerning something like the

:22:38. > :22:41.separation of church and state, separation of church and state,

:22:41. > :22:43.separation of church and state, keeping apart these two forces.

:22:43. > :22:45.keeping apart these two forces. keeping apart these two forces.

:22:45. > :22:46.keeping apart these two forces. Trying to extend the idea are the

:22:46. > :22:46.Trying to extend the idea are the Trying to extend the idea are the

:22:46. > :22:47.Trying to extend the idea are the political as a neutral sphere. I do

:22:47. > :22:53.political as a neutral sphere. I do political as a neutral sphere. I do

:22:53. > :22:55.political as a neutral sphere. I do not object to that in the slightest.

:22:55. > :22:57.not object to that in the slightest. not object to that in the slightest.

:22:57. > :22:57.not object to that in the slightest. The church that I am a member of,

:22:58. > :22:59.The church that I am a member of, The church that I am a member of,

:22:59. > :23:00.the Roman Catholic Church, is not the Roman Catholic Church, is not

:23:00. > :23:01.the Roman Catholic Church, is not an established church so it does

:23:01. > :23:06.an established church so it does an established church so it does

:23:06. > :23:08.an established church so it does an established church so it does

:23:08. > :23:09.not have a beer at the past. -- 8 not have a beer at the past. -- 8

:23:09. > :23:10.not have a beer at the past. -- 8 not have a beer at the past. -- 8

:23:10. > :23:15.VIP pass. You are a legislator. Do VIP pass. You are a legislator. Do

:23:15. > :23:16.VIP pass. You are a legislator. Do you get heavily lobbied?

:23:16. > :23:17.you get heavily lobbied? you get heavily lobbied?

:23:17. > :23:18.heavily lobbied but there is a heavily lobbied but there is a

:23:18. > :23:19.heavily lobbied but there is a heavily lobbied but there is a

:23:19. > :23:21.strong engage and and did is not strong engage and and did is not

:23:21. > :23:22.strong engage and and did is not sit easy to establish in relation

:23:22. > :23:23.sit easy to establish in relation sit easy to establish in relation

:23:23. > :23:24.sit easy to establish in relation to who represents the people who do

:23:24. > :23:25.to who represents the people who do to who represents the people who do

:23:25. > :23:27.to who represents the people who do not have a religious belief, or do

:23:27. > :23:28.not have a religious belief, or do not have a religious belief, or do

:23:28. > :23:29.not subscribe to a particular not subscribe to a particular

:23:29. > :23:30.not subscribe to a particular church? There is a difference

:23:30. > :23:31.church? There is a difference church? There is a difference

:23:31. > :23:32.between religion and the church. between religion and the church.

:23:33. > :23:33.between religion and the church. between religion and the church.

:23:33. > :23:35.It's the question is what is the It's the question is what is the

:23:35. > :23:36.It's the question is what is the It's the question is what is the

:23:36. > :23:38.place of religion, in a way, nobody place of religion, in a way, nobody

:23:38. > :23:38.place of religion, in a way, nobody place of religion, in a way, nobody

:23:38. > :23:39.needs to pin back down and define needs to pin back down and define

:23:39. > :23:40.needs to pin back down and define needs to pin back down and define

:23:40. > :23:41.it because it is what it is an it because it is what it is an

:23:41. > :23:48.it because it is what it is an people will either choose to

:23:48. > :23:49.people will either choose to people will either choose to

:23:49. > :23:50.people will either choose to subscribe or not. But what is the

:23:50. > :23:52.subscribe or not. But what is the subscribe or not. But what is the

:23:52. > :23:53.price of churches and religious price of churches and religious

:23:53. > :23:54.price of churches and religious organisations? I think that is

:23:54. > :23:56.organisations? I think that is organisations? I think that is

:23:56. > :23:57.different and that does require a different and that does require a

:23:57. > :23:58.different and that does require a degree of secularism and there is

:23:58. > :23:59.degree of secularism and there is degree of secularism and there is

:23:59. > :24:00.degree of secularism and there is very little voice for those who do

:24:00. > :24:02.very little voice for those who do very little voice for those who do

:24:02. > :24:04.very little voice for those who do not believe in that mix. I'm very

:24:04. > :24:05.not believe in that mix. I'm very not believe in that mix. I'm very

:24:05. > :24:07.glad that AC grayling, the atheist glad that AC grayling, the atheist

:24:07. > :24:08.glad that AC grayling, the atheist philosopher, is going to be

:24:08. > :24:09.philosopher, is going to be addressing the Scottish Parliament

:24:09. > :24:11.addressing the Scottish Parliament addressing the Scottish Parliament

:24:11. > :24:12.addressing the Scottish Parliament in the next couple of moments, in

:24:12. > :24:14.in the next couple of moments, in in the next couple of moments, in

:24:14. > :24:15.the time for reflection slot, which the time for reflection slot, which

:24:15. > :24:16.the time for reflection slot, which the time for reflection slot, which

:24:16. > :24:17.nine times out of ten is bringing a nine times out of ten is bringing a

:24:17. > :24:22.nine times out of ten is bringing a religious perspective and that is

:24:22. > :24:25.religious perspective and that is disproportionate. Backed the person

:24:25. > :24:27.disproportionate. Backed the person disproportionate. Backed the person

:24:27. > :24:30.next to the question. -- perhaps. next to the question. -- perhaps.

:24:30. > :24:31.next to the question. -- perhaps. next to the question. -- perhaps.

:24:31. > :24:32.We are hearing quite a lot about We are hearing quite a lot about

:24:32. > :24:33.We are hearing quite a lot about how it inter-faith dialogue is the

:24:33. > :24:34.how it inter-faith dialogue is the how it inter-faith dialogue is the

:24:34. > :24:36.how it inter-faith dialogue is the most radical it can be, it is all

:24:36. > :24:37.most radical it can be, it is all most radical it can be, it is all

:24:37. > :24:38.about how many religions we include about how many religions we include

:24:38. > :24:39.about how many religions we include about how many religions we include

:24:39. > :24:40.in the public's fear and that gives in the public's fear and that gives

:24:40. > :24:41.in the public's fear and that gives in the public's fear and that gives

:24:41. > :24:43.no respect to the large group of no respect to the large group of

:24:43. > :24:45.no respect to the large group of people for whom religion of any

:24:45. > :24:46.people for whom religion of any people for whom religion of any

:24:46. > :24:47.people for whom religion of any sort is not interesting. I am the

:24:47. > :24:48.sort is not interesting. I am the sort is not interesting. I am the

:24:48. > :24:49.media officer for the Edinburgh media officer for the Edinburgh

:24:49. > :24:53.media officer for the Edinburgh second of society. I am interested

:24:53. > :24:55.second of society. I am interested second of society. I am interested

:24:55. > :24:55.second of society. I am interested in the idea that the most radical

:24:55. > :24:57.in the idea that the most radical in the idea that the most radical

:24:57. > :24:58.in the idea that the most radical we can be used to have lots of

:24:58. > :24:59.we can be used to have lots of we can be used to have lots of

:24:59. > :25:00.religions in the public sphere, religions in the public sphere,

:25:00. > :25:01.religions in the public sphere, religions in the public sphere,

:25:01. > :25:03.whereas most people do not want any whereas most people do not want any

:25:03. > :25:05.whereas most people do not want any whereas most people do not want any

:25:05. > :25:06.at all. Most people? Are you sure? at all. Most people? Are you sure?

:25:06. > :25:09.at all. Most people? Are you sure? at all. Most people? Are you sure?

:25:09. > :25:12.Many people do not want any at all. Many people do not want any at all.

:25:12. > :25:14.Many people do not want any at all. I disagree. The people who choose

:25:14. > :25:16.I disagree. The people who choose I disagree. The people who choose

:25:16. > :25:17.not to believe in any particular not to believe in any particular

:25:17. > :25:18.not to believe in any particular not to believe in any particular

:25:18. > :25:22.BAA or approach God in that way BAA or approach God in that way

:25:22. > :25:23.BAA or approach God in that way BAA or approach God in that way

:25:23. > :25:24.really are the ones that are having really are the ones that are having

:25:24. > :25:25.really are the ones that are having their voice heard in a

:25:25. > :25:27.their voice heard in a disproportionate approach at the

:25:27. > :25:27.moment. moment.

:25:27. > :25:30.moment. moment.

:25:30. > :25:31.APPLAUSE. Can you give an example? APPLAUSE. Can you give an example?

:25:31. > :25:34.APPLAUSE. Can you give an example? The reactions of people of faith

:25:34. > :25:36.The reactions of people of faith The reactions of people of faith

:25:36. > :25:39.here makes that example. The people here makes that example. The people

:25:39. > :25:41.here makes that example. The people who have been strident, there have

:25:41. > :25:43.who have been strident, there have who have been strident, there have

:25:43. > :25:45.been slogans on buses saying, God been slogans on buses saying, God

:25:45. > :25:46.been slogans on buses saying, God been slogans on buses saying, God

:25:46. > :25:47.does not exist, that is a strident does not exist, that is a strident

:25:47. > :25:48.does not exist, that is a strident does not exist, that is a strident

:25:48. > :25:49.voice in the media and not in all voice in the media and not in all

:25:49. > :25:50.voice in the media and not in all voice in the media and not in all

:25:50. > :25:51.parts of the media but there are a parts of the media but there are a

:25:51. > :25:52.parts of the media but there are a parts of the media but there are a

:25:52. > :25:54.lot of parts where that is the lot of parts where that is the

:25:54. > :25:55.lot of parts where that is the dominant voice and when you come

:25:55. > :25:56.dominant voice and when you come dominant voice and when you come

:25:56. > :25:59.dominant voice and when you come with the voice of faith, it is

:25:59. > :26:00.with the voice of faith, it is with the voice of faith, it is

:26:00. > :26:08.treated with disdain. Thank you for treated with disdain. Thank you for

:26:08. > :26:11.treated with disdain. Thank you for that. Accra. The gentleman here.

:26:11. > :26:16.that. Accra. The gentleman here. that. Accra. The gentleman here.

:26:16. > :26:18.The statistics of religiosity in The statistics of religiosity in

:26:18. > :26:20.The statistics of religiosity in Scotland up to 2009 was stating

:26:20. > :26:22.Scotland up to 2009 was stating Scotland up to 2009 was stating

:26:22. > :26:25.Scotland up to 2009 was stating that 40% of Scots were a religious,

:26:25. > :26:30.that 40% of Scots were a religious, that 40% of Scots were a religious,

:26:30. > :26:33.non-religious. And in fact, 44 % non-religious. And in fact, 44 %

:26:33. > :26:34.non-religious. And in fact, 44 % male and 37 % female... What

:26:34. > :26:35.male and 37 % female... What male and 37 % female... What

:26:35. > :26:36.conclusion did or from those conclusion did or from those

:26:36. > :26:37.conclusion did or from those numbers? When you look back during

:26:38. > :26:39.numbers? When you look back during numbers? When you look back during

:26:39. > :26:41.the past ten years and extrapolate the past ten years and extrapolate

:26:41. > :26:44.the past ten years and extrapolate the past ten years and extrapolate

:26:44. > :26:46.it, you would see that by 2015, the it, you would see that by 2015, the

:26:46. > :26:51.it, you would see that by 2015, the majority, more than 50% of Scots

:26:51. > :26:53.majority, more than 50% of Scots majority, more than 50% of Scots

:26:53. > :26:53.will be non-religious. It will be will be non-religious. It will be

:26:54. > :26:56.will be non-religious. It will be will be non-religious. It will be

:26:56. > :26:59.most in a couple of years' time. most in a couple of years' time.

:26:59. > :27:02.most in a couple of years' time. where do you think religion stands

:27:02. > :27:03.where do you think religion stands where do you think religion stands

:27:03. > :27:07.in modern society? I think the in modern society? I think the

:27:07. > :27:09.in modern society? I think the religion is something personal and

:27:09. > :27:09.religion is something personal and religion is something personal and

:27:09. > :27:12.religion is something personal and there are a variety of religions. I

:27:12. > :27:14.there are a variety of religions. I there are a variety of religions. I

:27:14. > :27:15.there are a variety of religions. I was Muslim. There are a variety of

:27:15. > :27:16.was Muslim. There are a variety of different religions. They have

:27:16. > :27:19.different religions. They have different religions. They have

:27:19. > :27:20.different rules and many of them different rules and many of them

:27:20. > :27:21.different rules and many of them contradict the Human Rights rules

:27:21. > :27:26.contradict the Human Rights rules contradict the Human Rights rules

:27:26. > :27:27.contradict the Human Rights rules and we must make sure that the

:27:27. > :27:29.and we must make sure that the Government, executive and judicial

:27:29. > :27:30.Government, executive and judicial Government, executive and judicial

:27:31. > :27:34.powers are all neutral and they powers are all neutral and they

:27:34. > :27:35.powers are all neutral and they treat all citizens equally. Their

:27:35. > :27:39.treat all citizens equally. Their privileges for any religion.

:27:39. > :27:41.privileges for any religion. privileges for any religion.

:27:41. > :27:42.privileges for any religion. APPLAUSE. -- no privileges. I feel

:27:42. > :27:44.APPLAUSE. -- no privileges. I feel APPLAUSE. -- no privileges. I feel

:27:44. > :27:46.APPLAUSE. -- no privileges. I feel that the opposite is true in terms

:27:46. > :27:48.that the opposite is true in terms that the opposite is true in terms

:27:48. > :27:49.of especially the politics of of especially the politics of

:27:49. > :27:51.religion. If anything, politicians religion. If anything, politicians

:27:51. > :27:52.religion. If anything, politicians like to avoid religion. I realise

:27:52. > :27:53.like to avoid religion. I realise like to avoid religion. I realise

:27:53. > :27:55.like to avoid religion. I realise that is because they want to stay

:27:55. > :27:57.that is because they want to stay that is because they want to stay

:27:58. > :27:58.that is because they want to stay popular but somehow I feel, I look

:27:58. > :28:00.popular but somehow I feel, I look popular but somehow I feel, I look

:28:00. > :28:01.to people are of all religions to people are of all religions

:28:01. > :28:02.to people are of all religions because they have a certain courage

:28:02. > :28:03.because they have a certain courage because they have a certain courage

:28:03. > :28:06.because they have a certain courage to stand up for a belief that will

:28:06. > :28:07.to stand up for a belief that will to stand up for a belief that will

:28:07. > :28:08.to stand up for a belief that will not change, no matter how -- who

:28:08. > :28:09.not change, no matter how -- who not change, no matter how -- who

:28:09. > :28:11.not change, no matter how -- who they are trying to please. So for a

:28:11. > :28:12.they are trying to please. So for a they are trying to please. So for a

:28:12. > :28:12.they are trying to please. So for a politician to say that they do not

:28:12. > :28:14.politician to say that they do not politician to say that they do not

:28:14. > :28:15.feel they have a force is feel they have a force is

:28:15. > :28:18.feel they have a force is ridiculous when our forces are

:28:18. > :28:18.ridiculous when our forces are ridiculous when our forces are

:28:19. > :28:22.ridiculous when our forces are ignored. I promised to come back to

:28:22. > :28:23.ignored. I promised to come back to ignored. I promised to come back to

:28:23. > :28:25.the questioner. Thank you. I think the questioner. Thank you. I think

:28:25. > :28:26.the questioner. Thank you. I think the panel and the audience have

:28:26. > :28:27.the panel and the audience have the panel and the audience have

:28:27. > :28:29.the panel and the audience have made a point about religion being a

:28:29. > :28:31.made a point about religion being a made a point about religion being a

:28:31. > :28:32.drive to reform. Every Reformation drive to reform. Every Reformation

:28:32. > :28:33.drive to reform. Every Reformation today has replaced something with

:28:33. > :28:35.today has replaced something with today has replaced something with

:28:35. > :28:36.something deemed to be better. I something deemed to be better. I

:28:36. > :28:37.something deemed to be better. I something deemed to be better. I

:28:37. > :28:39.would like to ask people who have a would like to ask people who have a

:28:39. > :28:41.would like to ask people who have a secular belief in this audience

:28:41. > :28:42.secular belief in this audience secular belief in this audience

:28:42. > :28:44.secular belief in this audience what are you bringing in to replace

:28:44. > :28:45.what are you bringing in to replace what are you bringing in to replace

:28:45. > :28:46.what are you bringing in to replace religion? I am going to let that

:28:46. > :28:47.religion? I am going to let that religion? I am going to let that

:28:47. > :28:57.religion? I am going to let that hang there because I want to bring

:28:57. > :29:03.

:29:03. > :29:05.hang there because I want to bring Politicians are not very good at

:29:05. > :29:06.Politicians are not very good at Politicians are not very good at

:29:06. > :29:08.getting active members of their getting active members of their

:29:08. > :29:10.getting active members of their getting active members of their

:29:10. > :29:11.parties all people out to vote. The parties all people out to vote. The

:29:11. > :29:13.parties all people out to vote. The Church of Scotland has a half-a-

:29:13. > :29:14.Church of Scotland has a half-a- Church of Scotland has a half-a-

:29:14. > :29:16.million members in a small country million members in a small country

:29:16. > :29:17.million members in a small country million members in a small country

:29:18. > :29:19.and I would say at least 50,000 of and I would say at least 50,000 of

:29:19. > :29:22.and I would say at least 50,000 of these people are really seriously

:29:22. > :29:23.these people are really seriously these people are really seriously

:29:23. > :29:24.these people are really seriously active members. I think we can over

:29:24. > :29:25.active members. I think we can over active members. I think we can over

:29:25. > :29:26.active members. I think we can over do just how secular weir are. I

:29:26. > :29:30.do just how secular weir are. I do just how secular weir are. I

:29:30. > :29:31.take the point that politics is take the point that politics is

:29:31. > :29:31.take the point that politics is politics, religion is religion but

:29:32. > :29:33.politics, religion is religion but politics, religion is religion but

:29:33. > :29:39.religious people tend to be much religious people tend to be much

:29:39. > :29:41.religious people tend to be much better at getting involved. Sally?

:29:41. > :29:42.better at getting involved. Sally? better at getting involved. Sally?

:29:42. > :29:44.It is important that we unpacked It is important that we unpacked

:29:44. > :29:45.It is important that we unpacked It is important that we unpacked

:29:45. > :29:46.what we mean by secular. I have no what we mean by secular. I have no

:29:46. > :29:48.what we mean by secular. I have no problem with a secular society

:29:48. > :29:50.problem with a secular society problem with a secular society

:29:50. > :29:50.problem with a secular society which gives space for every one of

:29:50. > :29:53.which gives space for every one of which gives space for every one of

:29:53. > :29:54.different beliefs and no belief to different beliefs and no belief to

:29:54. > :29:56.different beliefs and no belief to bring what they feel is important

:29:56. > :29:58.bring what they feel is important bring what they feel is important

:29:58. > :29:59.bring what they feel is important to the table. If there is a VIP

:29:59. > :30:01.to the table. If there is a VIP to the table. If there is a VIP

:30:01. > :30:03.to the table. If there is a VIP pass, I was not issued with one.

:30:03. > :30:05.pass, I was not issued with one. pass, I was not issued with one.

:30:05. > :30:06.pass, I was not issued with one. That is not my understanding of how

:30:06. > :30:08.That is not my understanding of how That is not my understanding of how

:30:08. > :30:10.things work. It is important that things work. It is important that

:30:10. > :30:11.things work. It is important that all members of a modern Scottish

:30:11. > :30:13.all members of a modern Scottish all members of a modern Scottish

:30:13. > :30:14.all members of a modern Scottish Society have space to say, this is

:30:14. > :30:16.Society have space to say, this is Society have space to say, this is

:30:16. > :30:18.what I believe is important because what I believe is important because

:30:18. > :30:18.what I believe is important because what I believe is important because

:30:19. > :30:20.it impacts on my neighbour and I do it impacts on my neighbour and I do

:30:20. > :30:21.it impacts on my neighbour and I do it impacts on my neighbour and I do

:30:21. > :30:22.it impacts on my neighbour and I do not think it has to be an either or.

:30:22. > :30:23.not think it has to be an either or. not think it has to be an either or.

:30:23. > :30:24.not think it has to be an either or. We have a lot to teach each other

:30:24. > :30:25.We have a lot to teach each other We have a lot to teach each other

:30:25. > :30:27.We have a lot to teach each other if we will listen to each other and

:30:27. > :30:28.if we will listen to each other and if we will listen to each other and

:30:28. > :30:30.if we will listen to each other and I think there is a big difference

:30:30. > :30:32.I think there is a big difference I think there is a big difference

:30:32. > :30:32.between a secular society and a between a secular society and a

:30:32. > :30:33.between a secular society and a secularist society which says there

:30:33. > :30:42.secularist society which says there secularist society which says there

:30:42. > :30:44.is no room for religion. APPLAUSE. is no room for religion. APPLAUSE.

:30:44. > :30:45.is no room for religion. APPLAUSE. Talking of teaching. Dr Alasdair

:30:46. > :30:49.Talking of teaching. Dr Alasdair Talking of teaching. Dr Alasdair

:30:49. > :30:50.Noble is an education consultant. Noble is an education consultant.

:30:50. > :30:52.Noble is an education consultant. Noble is an education consultant.

:30:52. > :30:52.My question is this - since the My question is this - since the

:30:52. > :30:55.My question is this - since the European Convention of Human Rights

:30:55. > :30:56.European Convention of Human Rights European Convention of Human Rights

:30:56. > :30:58.European Convention of Human Rights gives parents a right to have their

:30:58. > :30:59.gives parents a right to have their children educated in conformity

:30:59. > :31:00.children educated in conformity children educated in conformity

:31:00. > :31:01.with a philosophical and religious with a philosophical and religious

:31:01. > :31:04.with a philosophical and religious beliefs, should the government of

:31:04. > :31:07.beliefs, should the government of beliefs, should the government of

:31:07. > :31:07.modern Scotland not be encouraging modern Scotland not be encouraging

:31:07. > :31:08.modern Scotland not be encouraging greater diversity of schools so

:31:08. > :31:10.greater diversity of schools so greater diversity of schools so

:31:10. > :31:12.that parents have a real choice that parents have a real choice

:31:12. > :31:13.that parents have a real choice that parents have a real choice

:31:13. > :31:14.about the ethos in which they want about the ethos in which they want

:31:14. > :31:17.about the ethos in which they want to have their young people

:31:17. > :31:19.to have their young people to have their young people

:31:19. > :31:20.educated? Sally? That is very educated? Sally? That is very

:31:20. > :31:22.interesting. From the perspective interesting. From the perspective

:31:22. > :31:24.interesting. From the perspective interesting. From the perspective

:31:24. > :31:25.of the Church of Scotland, we are of the Church of Scotland, we are

:31:25. > :31:27.of the Church of Scotland, we are very supportive of the non

:31:27. > :31:31.very supportive of the non denominational schools, there has

:31:31. > :31:32.denominational schools, there has denominational schools, there has

:31:32. > :31:33.been no appetite, since 1872 re- been no appetite, since 1872 re-

:31:33. > :31:35.been no appetite, since 1872 re- released control of every school in

:31:35. > :31:37.released control of every school in released control of every school in

:31:37. > :31:39.every parish and we have been every parish and we have been

:31:39. > :31:40.supportive of non-denominational supportive of non-denominational

:31:40. > :31:42.supportive of non-denominational schools, however, we respect the

:31:42. > :31:43.schools, however, we respect the schools, however, we respect the

:31:43. > :31:44.right of other religions who choose right of other religions who choose

:31:44. > :31:46.right of other religions who choose to have their children brought up

:31:46. > :31:47.to have their children brought up to have their children brought up

:31:47. > :31:48.to have their children brought up in a school that is their tradition.

:31:48. > :31:52.in a school that is their tradition. in a school that is their tradition.

:31:52. > :31:54.I would like to say something I would like to say something

:31:54. > :31:56.I would like to say something encounter. There is nothing more

:31:56. > :31:57.encounter. There is nothing more powerful and more transformative

:31:57. > :32:02.powerful and more transformative powerful and more transformative

:32:02. > :32:02.than knowing each other. That is than knowing each other. That is

:32:02. > :32:04.than knowing each other. That is the strength of our were

:32:04. > :32:06.the strength of our were philosophical and moral education.

:32:06. > :32:07.philosophical and moral education. philosophical and moral education.

:32:07. > :32:08.philosophical and moral education. It begins to on packed to who we

:32:08. > :32:09.It begins to on packed to who we It begins to on packed to who we

:32:09. > :32:11.It begins to on packed to who we are together and we begin to make

:32:12. > :32:12.are together and we begin to make are together and we begin to make

:32:13. > :32:15.connections. There are limits to connections. There are limits to

:32:15. > :32:15.connections. There are limits to the extent that operates within

:32:15. > :32:16.the extent that operates within the extent that operates within

:32:16. > :32:18.the extent that operates within schools but do you agree with the

:32:18. > :32:21.schools but do you agree with the proposition that the government

:32:21. > :32:24.proposition that the government proposition that the government

:32:24. > :32:25.should do more to encourage schools, should do more to encourage schools,

:32:25. > :32:26.should do more to encourage schools, faith based schools, a greater

:32:26. > :32:29.faith based schools, a greater diversity in the educational

:32:29. > :32:30.diversity in the educational establishment? A government should

:32:30. > :32:32.establishment? A government should establishment? A government should

:32:32. > :32:34.establishment? A government should focus on what is best on the people.

:32:34. > :32:36.focus on what is best on the people. focus on what is best on the people.

:32:36. > :32:39.That impacts on itself in different That impacts on itself in different

:32:39. > :32:40.That impacts on itself in different ways. A Harry Reid? I would

:32:40. > :32:42.ways. A Harry Reid? I would ways. A Harry Reid? I would

:32:42. > :32:44.disagree with Sally. The Church of disagree with Sally. The Church of

:32:44. > :32:45.disagree with Sally. The Church of Scotland should be trying hard to

:32:45. > :32:46.Scotland should be trying hard to Scotland should be trying hard to

:32:46. > :32:47.Scotland should be trying hard to promote a faith school. I do not

:32:47. > :32:51.promote a faith school. I do not promote a faith school. I do not

:32:51. > :32:53.promote a faith school. I do not see why he should not. They should

:32:53. > :32:55.see why he should not. They should see why he should not. They should

:32:55. > :32:56.also, you can have completely also, you can have completely

:32:56. > :32:57.also, you can have completely secular schools, are we are a

:32:57. > :32:58.secular schools, are we are a secular schools, are we are a

:32:58. > :33:00.secular schools, are we are a diverse society and I do not see

:33:00. > :33:01.diverse society and I do not see diverse society and I do not see

:33:01. > :33:03.any reason why the only schools any reason why the only schools

:33:03. > :33:04.any reason why the only schools any reason why the only schools

:33:04. > :33:05.that really seemed to be in our that really seemed to be in our

:33:05. > :33:08.that really seemed to be in our society which are clearly religious

:33:08. > :33:11.society which are clearly religious society which are clearly religious

:33:11. > :33:12.are the Catholic schools. I think are the Catholic schools. I think

:33:12. > :33:13.are the Catholic schools. I think are the Catholic schools. I think

:33:13. > :33:15.the Catholic schools do a very good the Catholic schools do a very good

:33:15. > :33:16.the Catholic schools do a very good job, but I simply cannot understand

:33:16. > :33:17.job, but I simply cannot understand job, but I simply cannot understand

:33:17. > :33:19.job, but I simply cannot understand why the Church of Scotland is so

:33:19. > :33:20.why the Church of Scotland is so why the Church of Scotland is so

:33:20. > :33:21.why the Church of Scotland is so reluctant to have its schools. I am

:33:21. > :33:23.reluctant to have its schools. I am reluctant to have its schools. I am

:33:23. > :33:24.sure many Church of Scotland sure many Church of Scotland

:33:24. > :33:26.sure many Church of Scotland parents would love to have Church

:33:26. > :33:27.parents would love to have Church parents would love to have Church

:33:27. > :33:29.of Scotland schools. We have looked of Scotland schools. We have looked

:33:29. > :33:31.of Scotland schools. We have looked on this on several occasions, there

:33:31. > :33:32.on this on several occasions, there on this on several occasions, there

:33:32. > :33:33.on this on several occasions, there is no appetite for that. The school

:33:33. > :33:35.is no appetite for that. The school is no appetite for that. The school

:33:35. > :33:36.system is well rounded in Scotland. system is well rounded in Scotland.

:33:36. > :33:41.system is well rounded in Scotland. It gives an opportunity for

:33:41. > :33:42.It gives an opportunity for religious observance, so narrow

:33:42. > :33:42.religious observance, so narrow religious observance, so narrow

:33:42. > :33:44.religious observance, so narrow that it is not something the Church

:33:44. > :33:47.that it is not something the Church that it is not something the Church

:33:47. > :33:48.of Scotland has seen an appetite of Scotland has seen an appetite

:33:48. > :33:49.of Scotland has seen an appetite for. The non denominational schools

:33:49. > :33:51.for. The non denominational schools for. The non denominational schools

:33:51. > :33:52.that of public schools do a that of public schools do a

:33:52. > :33:53.that of public schools do a wonderful job and they offer an

:33:53. > :33:55.wonderful job and they offer an wonderful job and they offer an

:33:55. > :33:57.opportunity for our children to opportunity for our children to

:33:57. > :33:58.opportunity for our children to encounter and explore and meet with

:33:58. > :33:59.encounter and explore and meet with encounter and explore and meet with

:33:59. > :34:02.encounter and explore and meet with other people. That is a very strong

:34:02. > :34:03.other people. That is a very strong other people. That is a very strong

:34:03. > :34:05.other people. That is a very strong point. In Scotland so far and tell

:34:05. > :34:08.point. In Scotland so far and tell point. In Scotland so far and tell

:34:08. > :34:10.last year I think, the curriculum last year I think, the curriculum

:34:10. > :34:12.of non-denominational schools was of non-denominational schools was

:34:12. > :34:13.of non-denominational schools was covering all kinds of religions.

:34:13. > :34:17.covering all kinds of religions. covering all kinds of religions.

:34:17. > :34:19.Unfortunately when we had the new Unfortunately when we had the new

:34:19. > :34:20.curriculum for excellence the curriculum for excellence the

:34:20. > :34:23.denominational schools, Catholic denominational schools, Catholic

:34:23. > :34:26.denominational schools, Catholic schools have a curriculum which

:34:26. > :34:27.schools have a curriculum which schools have a curriculum which

:34:27. > :34:30.still teaches all religions where still teaches all religions where

:34:30. > :34:31.non-denominational schools have a non-denominational schools have a

:34:31. > :34:36.non-denominational schools have a non-denominational schools have a

:34:36. > :34:36.curriculum that can focus on a few curriculum that can focus on a few

:34:36. > :34:37.curriculum that can focus on a few religions only. You do not think

:34:37. > :34:42.religions only. You do not think the non-denominational schools are

:34:42. > :34:43.the non-denominational schools are the non-denominational schools are

:34:43. > :34:45.the non-denominational schools are doing a great job? They were. The

:34:45. > :34:47.doing a great job? They were. The doing a great job? They were. The

:34:47. > :34:50.new curriculum is limiting them to new curriculum is limiting them to

:34:50. > :34:53.new curriculum is limiting them to new curriculum is limiting them to

:34:53. > :34:55.two religions only. A lady at the two religions only. A lady at the

:34:55. > :35:01.two religions only. A lady at the back. My concern about the Scottish

:35:01. > :35:01.back. My concern about the Scottish education system, particularly with

:35:01. > :35:03.education system, particularly with education system, particularly with

:35:03. > :35:04.education system, particularly with education system, particularly with

:35:04. > :35:05.R M E, is that the policy is wishy- R M E, is that the policy is wishy-

:35:05. > :35:06.R M E, is that the policy is wishy- washy. You get some schools that

:35:06. > :35:09.washy. You get some schools that washy. You get some schools that

:35:09. > :35:10.washy. You get some schools that only teach one point of view and

:35:10. > :35:11.only teach one point of view and only teach one point of view and

:35:11. > :35:12.then schools in inner-city areas then schools in inner-city areas

:35:12. > :35:15.then schools in inner-city areas which could teach across the

:35:15. > :35:15.which could teach across the which could teach across the

:35:15. > :35:17.spectrum, so do get very different spectrum, so do get very different

:35:17. > :35:19.spectrum, so do get very different education are being had by the

:35:19. > :35:20.education are being had by the education are being had by the

:35:20. > :35:26.children in different areas. What children in different areas. What

:35:26. > :35:27.children in different areas. What children in different areas. What

:35:27. > :35:29.would you like? I would like a would you like? I would like a

:35:29. > :35:30.standardised curriculum across the standardised curriculum across the

:35:30. > :35:32.standardised curriculum across the board so that the children are

:35:32. > :35:33.board so that the children are board so that the children are

:35:33. > :35:33.educated in all of the religions educated in all of the religions

:35:34. > :35:35.educated in all of the religions educated in all of the religions

:35:35. > :35:36.but are out there but not told that but are out there but not told that

:35:36. > :35:38.but are out there but not told that any of them are particularly true,

:35:38. > :35:39.any of them are particularly true, any of them are particularly true,

:35:39. > :35:40.any of them are particularly true, but I would like to look at

:35:40. > :35:42.but I would like to look at but I would like to look at

:35:42. > :35:43.morality and the issues around that morality and the issues around that

:35:43. > :35:45.morality and the issues around that morality and the issues around that

:35:45. > :35:48.from a non religious point of view, from a non religious point of view,

:35:48. > :35:49.looking at free-thinkers and looking at free-thinkers and

:35:49. > :35:55.looking at free-thinkers and secularists, people who have made

:35:55. > :35:56.secularists, people who have made secularists, people who have made

:35:56. > :35:59.real difference to society. real difference to society.

:35:59. > :36:00.real difference to society. real difference to society.

:36:00. > :36:01.trained for a time as a Catholic RE trained for a time as a Catholic RE

:36:01. > :36:03.trained for a time as a Catholic RE trained for a time as a Catholic RE

:36:03. > :36:03.teacher and one thing that is often teacher and one thing that is often

:36:03. > :36:06.teacher and one thing that is often forgotten is that the legislation

:36:06. > :36:07.forgotten is that the legislation that allows for denominational

:36:07. > :36:09.that allows for denominational that allows for denominational

:36:09. > :36:11.schools is still on the books. schools is still on the books.

:36:11. > :36:14.schools is still on the books. There are state schools in Scotland,

:36:14. > :36:15.There are state schools in Scotland, There are state schools in Scotland,

:36:15. > :36:16.There are state schools in Scotland, there is a Jewish prima school and

:36:16. > :36:17.there is a Jewish prima school and there is a Jewish prima school and

:36:17. > :36:19.an Episcopalian school, there is an Episcopalian school, there is

:36:19. > :36:20.an Episcopalian school, there is nothing to stop any faith group

:36:20. > :36:21.nothing to stop any faith group nothing to stop any faith group

:36:21. > :36:23.bringing forth a proposition to bringing forth a proposition to

:36:23. > :36:24.bringing forth a proposition to bringing forth a proposition to

:36:24. > :36:25.have their own school as well. The have their own school as well. The

:36:25. > :36:26.have their own school as well. The difficulty which has been faced in

:36:26. > :36:27.difficulty which has been faced in difficulty which has been faced in

:36:27. > :36:29.difficulty which has been faced in the past is not a question of money

:36:29. > :36:31.the past is not a question of money the past is not a question of money

:36:31. > :36:37.but of staffing. For example, if but of staffing. For example, if

:36:37. > :36:39.but of staffing. For example, if you have a minority religious

:36:40. > :36:41.you have a minority religious you have a minority religious

:36:41. > :36:42.position, people have on several position, people have on several

:36:42. > :36:43.position, people have on several occasions tried to stop schools of

:36:43. > :36:45.occasions tried to stop schools of occasions tried to stop schools of

:36:45. > :36:47.that nature but have found a that nature but have found a

:36:47. > :36:49.difficulty in finding sufficiently difficulty in finding sufficiently

:36:49. > :36:50.difficulty in finding sufficiently qualified teachers to take up the

:36:50. > :36:50.qualified teachers to take up the qualified teachers to take up the

:36:50. > :36:53.positions which would be necessary positions which would be necessary

:36:53. > :36:53.positions which would be necessary positions which would be necessary

:36:53. > :36:54.to make that happen. Do you think to make that happen. Do you think

:36:54. > :36:56.to make that happen. Do you think to make that happen. Do you think

:36:56. > :36:58.the demand is there but his UN met? the demand is there but his UN met?

:36:58. > :37:00.the demand is there but his UN met? the demand is there but his UN met?

:37:00. > :37:01.That is possibly the case. What I That is possibly the case. What I

:37:01. > :37:01.That is possibly the case. What I That is possibly the case. What I

:37:01. > :37:03.have I concern about is the comment have I concern about is the comment

:37:03. > :37:04.have I concern about is the comment have I concern about is the comment

:37:04. > :37:05.that the only way we can have that the only way we can have

:37:05. > :37:08.that the only way we can have diversity is to have the same

:37:08. > :37:09.diversity is to have the same curriculum everywhere. That seems

:37:09. > :37:10.curriculum everywhere. That seems curriculum everywhere. That seems

:37:10. > :37:14.curriculum everywhere. That seems to be the opposite of diversity to

:37:14. > :37:20.to be the opposite of diversity to to be the opposite of diversity to

:37:20. > :37:22.to be the opposite of diversity to me. From the front row? I think I

:37:22. > :37:24.me. From the front row? I think I me. From the front row? I think I

:37:24. > :37:25.would want to disagree with what would want to disagree with what

:37:25. > :37:26.would want to disagree with what Harry said because the choice that

:37:26. > :37:28.Harry said because the choice that Harry said because the choice that

:37:28. > :37:30.Harry said because the choice that he is offering is not a choice for

:37:30. > :37:30.he is offering is not a choice for he is offering is not a choice for

:37:30. > :37:32.everyone. It might work in the everyone. It might work in the

:37:32. > :37:33.everyone. It might work in the everyone. It might work in the

:37:33. > :37:37.cities but it does not work in cities but it does not work in

:37:37. > :37:38.cities but it does not work in rural areas where however diverse

:37:38. > :37:40.rural areas where however diverse rural areas where however diverse

:37:40. > :37:43.rural areas where however diverse the choices in theory, it simply is

:37:43. > :37:44.the choices in theory, it simply is the choices in theory, it simply is

:37:44. > :37:45.too remote for individuals to send too remote for individuals to send

:37:45. > :37:46.too remote for individuals to send their children or for older

:37:46. > :37:47.their children or for older their children or for older

:37:47. > :37:48.their children or for older children to attend, so I think we

:37:48. > :37:50.children to attend, so I think we children to attend, so I think we

:37:50. > :37:51.have to operate in the real-world. have to operate in the real-world.

:37:51. > :37:53.have to operate in the real-world. have to operate in the real-world.

:37:53. > :37:54.One of the things that remains with One of the things that remains with

:37:54. > :37:58.One of the things that remains with me from my childhood, which was

:37:58. > :37:59.me from my childhood, which was me from my childhood, which was

:37:59. > :38:02.centuries ago, is the alienation centuries ago, is the alienation

:38:02. > :38:03.centuries ago, is the alienation that I felt not during religious

:38:04. > :38:05.that I felt not during religious that I felt not during religious

:38:05. > :38:07.classes in school, because I knew classes in school, because I knew

:38:07. > :38:09.classes in school, because I knew exactly what they were for, but

:38:09. > :38:09.exactly what they were for, but exactly what they were for, but

:38:10. > :38:12.ceremonies like prize giving us and ceremonies like prize giving us and

:38:12. > :38:12.ceremonies like prize giving us and ceremonies like prize giving us and

:38:12. > :38:13.assemblies and I think if you are assemblies and I think if you are

:38:14. > :38:14.assemblies and I think if you are assemblies and I think if you are

:38:14. > :38:16.going to have a modern society of going to have a modern society of

:38:16. > :38:16.going to have a modern society of going to have a modern society of

:38:16. > :38:18.the kind that I think everyone here the kind that I think everyone here

:38:18. > :38:20.the kind that I think everyone here the kind that I think everyone here

:38:20. > :38:22.is in favour of, then I think we is in favour of, then I think we

:38:22. > :38:27.have two separate religious have two separate religious

:38:28. > :38:29.observance from religious education. observance from religious education.

:38:29. > :38:30.observance from religious education. observance from religious education.

:38:30. > :38:32.The model I would offer is a very The model I would offer is a very

:38:32. > :38:34.The model I would offer is a very The model I would offer is a very

:38:34. > :38:36.simple one, a very common one, it simple one, a very common one, it

:38:36. > :38:38.simple one, a very common one, it is available in universities where

:38:38. > :38:39.is available in universities where they separate the graduation

:38:40. > :38:40.they separate the graduation they separate the graduation

:38:40. > :38:41.ceremony from any service, a ceremony from any service, a

:38:41. > :38:43.ceremony from any service, a religious service, that may take

:38:43. > :38:44.religious service, that may take religious service, that may take

:38:44. > :38:46.place before that and schools can place before that and schools can

:38:46. > :38:47.place before that and schools can place before that and schools can

:38:47. > :38:51.do exactly the same thing but we do exactly the same thing but we

:38:51. > :38:52.do exactly the same thing but we are in a situation where so-called

:38:52. > :38:53.are in a situation where so-called non-denominational schools are

:38:53. > :38:55.non-denominational schools are non-denominational schools are

:38:55. > :38:57.alienating the people that they are alienating the people that they are

:38:57. > :38:59.alienating the people that they are pretending to honour by forcing

:38:59. > :39:01.pretending to honour by forcing pretending to honour by forcing

:39:01. > :39:02.them to sit through a foreign them to sit through a foreign

:39:02. > :39:05.them to sit through a foreign religious ceremony as part of a

:39:05. > :39:06.religious ceremony as part of a religious ceremony as part of a

:39:06. > :39:07.prize-giving. I will come back to prize-giving. I will come back to

:39:07. > :39:09.prize-giving. I will come back to prize-giving. I will come back to

:39:09. > :39:11.the audience in a moment but let me the audience in a moment but let me

:39:11. > :39:14.the audience in a moment but let me bring in Professor John Haldane.

:39:14. > :39:17.bring in Professor John Haldane. bring in Professor John Haldane.

:39:17. > :39:20.The original question was about The original question was about

:39:20. > :39:22.The original question was about educational policy. I am of the

:39:22. > :39:24.educational policy. I am of the educational policy. I am of the

:39:24. > :39:26.opinion that to let at 1,000 opinion that to let at 1,000

:39:27. > :39:27.opinion that to let at 1,000 flowers bloom. I like diversity.

:39:27. > :39:29.flowers bloom. I like diversity. flowers bloom. I like diversity.

:39:29. > :39:32.flowers bloom. I like diversity. There is a lot to be said for

:39:32. > :39:34.There is a lot to be said for diversity. This connects with

:39:34. > :39:35.diversity. This connects with diversity. This connects with

:39:35. > :39:37.earlier themes. This is a society earlier themes. This is a society

:39:37. > :39:38.earlier themes. This is a society earlier themes. This is a society

:39:38. > :39:39.in transition, it has moved from a in transition, it has moved from a

:39:39. > :39:41.in transition, it has moved from a monolithic idea of what human

:39:41. > :39:43.monolithic idea of what human monolithic idea of what human

:39:43. > :39:45.nature is, it is entirely nature is, it is entirely

:39:45. > :39:48.appropriate that that diversity appropriate that that diversity

:39:48. > :39:49.appropriate that that diversity should be educated in the education

:39:49. > :39:50.should be educated in the education should be educated in the education

:39:50. > :39:51.system. We should have serious system. We should have serious

:39:52. > :39:54.system. We should have serious reservations about the idea of

:39:54. > :39:55.reservations about the idea of state mandated curriculum. There

:39:55. > :39:56.state mandated curriculum. There state mandated curriculum. There

:39:57. > :39:58.are certain elementary features of are certain elementary features of

:39:58. > :39:59.are certain elementary features of education that have to be present

:39:59. > :40:00.education that have to be present education that have to be present

:40:00. > :40:02.education that have to be present there but it is also a test, people

:40:02. > :40:03.there but it is also a test, people there but it is also a test, people

:40:03. > :40:05.talk about the importance of talk about the importance of

:40:06. > :40:06.talk about the importance of traditions, let them be tested and

:40:06. > :40:08.traditions, let them be tested and traditions, let them be tested and

:40:08. > :40:10.traditions, let them be tested and see if there is the support for

:40:10. > :40:11.see if there is the support for see if there is the support for

:40:11. > :40:11.them. Some will weather and some them. Some will weather and some

:40:11. > :40:13.them. Some will weather and some them. Some will weather and some

:40:13. > :40:15.will flourish and that is a good will flourish and that is a good

:40:15. > :40:16.will flourish and that is a good will flourish and that is a good

:40:16. > :40:17.thing. I support the idea that we thing. I support the idea that we

:40:17. > :40:19.thing. I support the idea that we should expose children to a wide

:40:19. > :40:22.should expose children to a wide range of philosophical viewpoint

:40:22. > :40:23.range of philosophical viewpoint and religious histories, including

:40:23. > :40:24.and religious histories, including and religious histories, including

:40:24. > :40:25.and religious histories, including the argument that you do not need

:40:25. > :40:26.the argument that you do not need the argument that you do not need

:40:26. > :40:27.the argument that you do not need to choose a religion if you do not

:40:27. > :40:28.to choose a religion if you do not to choose a religion if you do not

:40:28. > :40:33.want to, that should be clearly want to, that should be clearly

:40:33. > :40:34.want to, that should be clearly available for young people. The

:40:34. > :40:36.available for young people. The available for young people. The

:40:36. > :40:37.question about human rights of question about human rights of

:40:37. > :40:37.question about human rights of question about human rights of

:40:37. > :40:38.parents, I am a big supporter of parents, I am a big supporter of

:40:38. > :40:40.parents, I am a big supporter of parents, I am a big supporter of

:40:40. > :40:41.human rights but they need to be human rights but they need to be

:40:41. > :40:42.human rights but they need to be balanced. There human rights for

:40:42. > :40:43.balanced. There human rights for balanced. There human rights for

:40:43. > :40:43.balanced. There human rights for the children as well and they have

:40:44. > :40:47.the children as well and they have the children as well and they have

:40:47. > :40:48.the children as well and they have a right to a neutral education. The

:40:48. > :40:49.a right to a neutral education. The a right to a neutral education. The

:40:49. > :40:50.a right to a neutral education. The danger if we were to take this

:40:50. > :40:53.danger if we were to take this danger if we were to take this

:40:54. > :40:56.approach of just letting all these, approach of just letting all these,

:40:56. > :40:57.approach of just letting all these, what you might cornflowers, letting

:40:57. > :40:59.what you might cornflowers, letting all these experimental techniques

:40:59. > :41:01.all these experimental techniques all these experimental techniques

:41:01. > :41:02.be approached, we would see the be approached, we would see the

:41:02. > :41:03.be approached, we would see the be approached, we would see the

:41:03. > :41:05.threat of Queen issues on in our threat of Queen issues on in our

:41:05. > :41:06.threat of Queen issues on in our threat of Queen issues on in our

:41:06. > :41:08.schools. We would see the threat of schools. We would see the threat of

:41:08. > :41:09.schools. We would see the threat of schools that would refuse to teach

:41:09. > :41:11.schools that would refuse to teach schools that would refuse to teach

:41:11. > :41:13.sex education. We would see more sex education. We would see more

:41:13. > :41:14.schools where things like schools where things like

:41:14. > :41:15.schools where things like homophobia or are not successfully

:41:15. > :41:18.homophobia or are not successfully homophobia or are not successfully

:41:18. > :41:19.challenged and that would be challenged and that would be

:41:19. > :41:21.challenged and that would be extremely dangerous. I want to go

:41:21. > :41:25.extremely dangerous. I want to go extremely dangerous. I want to go

:41:26. > :41:28.back very briefly to the questioner. back very briefly to the questioner.

:41:28. > :41:29.back very briefly to the questioner. Patricks to recognise we have the

:41:29. > :41:30.Patricks to recognise we have the Patricks to recognise we have the

:41:30. > :41:32.inspectorate of schools to insure inspectorate of schools to insure

:41:32. > :41:33.inspectorate of schools to insure inspectorate of schools to insure

:41:33. > :41:34.that does not happen but we are that does not happen but we are

:41:34. > :41:36.that does not happen but we are skirting round the problem. For

:41:36. > :41:37.skirting round the problem. For skirting round the problem. For

:41:37. > :41:39.many parents, faith and belief is many parents, faith and belief is

:41:39. > :41:40.many parents, faith and belief is fundamental in their life and they

:41:40. > :41:42.fundamental in their life and they fundamental in their life and they

:41:42. > :41:44.would one that reflected in the would one that reflected in the

:41:44. > :41:45.would one that reflected in the education of young people. Why do

:41:45. > :41:50.education of young people. Why do education of young people. Why do

:41:50. > :41:57.we not encourage more diversity? we not encourage more diversity?

:41:57. > :41:58.we not encourage more diversity? Let me bring in another question.

:41:58. > :41:59.Let me bring in another question. Let me bring in another question.

:41:59. > :42:00.From an educational officer for the From an educational officer for the

:42:00. > :42:02.From an educational officer for the Society of protection from unborn

:42:02. > :42:04.Society of protection from unborn Society of protection from unborn

:42:04. > :42:07.children. Eight Scotland failed to children. Eight Scotland failed to

:42:07. > :42:07.children. Eight Scotland failed to win independence in 2014, to the

:42:08. > :42:09.win independence in 2014, to the win independence in 2014, to the

:42:09. > :42:11.win independence in 2014, to the pattern -- panel think that end of

:42:11. > :42:13.pattern -- panel think that end of pattern -- panel think that end of

:42:13. > :42:15.life matters are devolved that life matters are devolved that

:42:15. > :42:19.life matters are devolved that beginning of life matters such as

:42:19. > :42:20.beginning of life matters such as beginning of life matters such as

:42:20. > :42:23.beginning of life matters such as abortion be? Harry Reid. I think it

:42:23. > :42:24.abortion be? Harry Reid. I think it abortion be? Harry Reid. I think it

:42:24. > :42:30.abortion be? Harry Reid. I think it should be. I think we will get

:42:30. > :42:30.should be. I think we will get should be. I think we will get

:42:30. > :42:32.should be. I think we will get independence by the way. I think it

:42:32. > :42:34.independence by the way. I think it independence by the way. I think it

:42:34. > :42:35.should be. Be it was quite should be. Be it was quite

:42:35. > :42:39.controversial when the devolution controversial when the devolution

:42:39. > :42:40.controversial when the devolution settlement was being drawn up. No

:42:40. > :42:41.settlement was being drawn up. No settlement was being drawn up. No

:42:41. > :42:42.more controversial than the other more controversial than the other

:42:42. > :42:44.more controversial than the other things we were talking about.

:42:44. > :42:46.things we were talking about. things we were talking about.

:42:46. > :42:47.nature of that controversy at the nature of that controversy at the

:42:47. > :42:48.nature of that controversy at the nature of that controversy at the

:42:48. > :42:52.time was the concern of the then time was the concern of the then

:42:52. > :42:54.time was the concern of the then Home Secretary that if Scotland had

:42:54. > :42:55.Home Secretary that if Scotland had Home Secretary that if Scotland had

:42:55. > :42:57.legislated power over abortion, it legislated power over abortion, it

:42:57. > :42:58.would introduce more restrictive would introduce more restrictive

:42:58. > :43:00.would introduce more restrictive legislation and so you get cross-

:43:00. > :43:01.legislation and so you get cross- legislation and so you get cross-

:43:01. > :43:03.border traffic of people moving border traffic of people moving

:43:03. > :43:09.border traffic of people moving south for abortions. It was an

:43:09. > :43:10.south for abortions. It was an outdated assessment. Certainly it

:43:10. > :43:12.outdated assessment. Certainly it outdated assessment. Certainly it

:43:13. > :43:13.should be and whether or not should be and whether or not

:43:14. > :43:15.Scotland becomes independent, it Scotland becomes independent, it

:43:15. > :43:18.Scotland becomes independent, it seems to me that any further

:43:18. > :43:18.seems to me that any further seems to me that any further

:43:18. > :43:27.devolution of power should include devolution of power should include

:43:27. > :43:29.devolution of power should include devolution of power should include

:43:29. > :43:30.power on these matters. I will also power on these matters. I will also

:43:30. > :43:31.power on these matters. I will also power on these matters. I will also

:43:31. > :43:32.argue for a yes vote but if that argue for a yes vote but if that

:43:32. > :43:34.argue for a yes vote but if that does not happen, they should be

:43:34. > :43:35.does not happen, they should be does not happen, they should be

:43:35. > :43:36.does not happen, they should be seen as a health matter and health

:43:36. > :43:39.seen as a health matter and health seen as a health matter and health

:43:39. > :43:40.is devolved. I disagree with the is devolved. I disagree with the

:43:40. > :43:42.is devolved. I disagree with the is devolved. I disagree with the

:43:42. > :43:44.original decision to keep that as a original decision to keep that as a

:43:44. > :43:45.original decision to keep that as a reserve matter. I also disagree

:43:45. > :43:46.reserve matter. I also disagree reserve matter. I also disagree

:43:46. > :43:47.with the questioner in terms of with the questioner in terms of

:43:47. > :43:48.with the questioner in terms of with the questioner in terms of

:43:48. > :43:49.what I would like to see done with what I would like to see done with

:43:49. > :43:50.what I would like to see done with what I would like to see done with

:43:50. > :43:53.those powers. I would like to see those powers. I would like to see

:43:53. > :43:55.those powers. I would like to see an approach were all sexual health

:43:55. > :43:57.an approach were all sexual health an approach were all sexual health

:43:58. > :43:58.services are widely available at services are widely available at

:43:58. > :44:00.services are widely available at high quality services that respect

:44:00. > :44:01.high quality services that respect high quality services that respect

:44:01. > :44:02.high quality services that respect the rights of women and men. That

:44:02. > :44:03.the rights of women and men. That the rights of women and men. That

:44:03. > :44:04.the rights of women and men. That is the kind of agenda of the

:44:04. > :44:14.is the kind of agenda of the is the kind of agenda of the

:44:14. > :44:18.

:44:18. > :44:19.Scottish parliament would be likely When I was in the Scottish Youth

:44:19. > :44:21.When I was in the Scottish Youth When I was in the Scottish Youth

:44:21. > :44:22.Parliament there was a motion Parliament there was a motion

:44:22. > :44:23.Parliament there was a motion passed by myself in support of

:44:23. > :44:23.passed by myself in support of passed by myself in support of

:44:23. > :44:24.passed by myself in support of peace and Asia and from that I

:44:24. > :44:27.peace and Asia and from that I peace and Asia and from that I

:44:27. > :44:28.peace and Asia and from that I peace and Asia and from that I

:44:28. > :44:29.would like to say it is one of the would like to say it is one of the

:44:29. > :44:30.would like to say it is one of the would like to say it is one of the

:44:30. > :44:32.first times I have heard any motion first times I have heard any motion

:44:32. > :44:34.first times I have heard any motion being passed to do with euthanasia,

:44:34. > :44:37.being passed to do with euthanasia, being passed to do with euthanasia,

:44:37. > :44:38.but relating it back to abortion... but relating it back to abortion...

:44:38. > :44:40.but relating it back to abortion... The question is on abortion, hybrid

:44:40. > :44:41.The question is on abortion, hybrid The question is on abortion, hybrid

:44:41. > :44:44.The question is on abortion, hybrid like to say that many young persons

:44:44. > :44:45.like to say that many young persons like to say that many young persons

:44:45. > :44:47.in Scotland and modern society in Scotland and modern society

:44:47. > :44:47.in Scotland and modern society require and need choice, so

:44:47. > :44:48.require and need choice, so require and need choice, so

:44:49. > :44:50.require and need choice, so therefore I would like to push that

:44:50. > :44:51.therefore I would like to push that therefore I would like to push that

:44:51. > :44:52.therefore I would like to push that forward as well. I want to bring in

:44:52. > :44:53.forward as well. I want to bring in forward as well. I want to bring in

:44:53. > :44:59.forward as well. I want to bring in as many voices as they can in the

:44:59. > :45:00.as many voices as they can in the as many voices as they can in the

:45:00. > :45:02.final few minutes. You asked the final few minutes. You asked the

:45:02. > :45:03.final few minutes. You asked the question, what is the purpose of

:45:03. > :45:07.question, what is the purpose of question, what is the purpose of

:45:07. > :45:08.religion in society today? It seems religion in society today? It seems

:45:08. > :45:09.religion in society today? It seems religion in society today? It seems

:45:09. > :45:10.religion in society today? It seems to D -- to me that from tonight it

:45:10. > :45:13.to D -- to me that from tonight it to D -- to me that from tonight it

:45:13. > :45:15.to D -- to me that from tonight it is to hold back change. Last week's

:45:15. > :45:16.is to hold back change. Last week's is to hold back change. Last week's

:45:16. > :45:21.examples in the schools... We are examples in the schools... We are

:45:21. > :45:22.now discussing abortion. now discussing abortion.

:45:22. > :45:23.immediately the religious groups immediately the religious groups

:45:23. > :45:24.immediately the religious groups immediately the religious groups

:45:24. > :45:25.immediately the religious groups came in and wanted to put an end to

:45:25. > :45:26.came in and wanted to put an end to came in and wanted to put an end to

:45:26. > :45:27.came in and wanted to put an end to that and that is a secular issue.

:45:27. > :45:28.that and that is a secular issue. that and that is a secular issue.

:45:28. > :45:31.that and that is a secular issue. It should be nothing to do with

:45:31. > :45:32.It should be nothing to do with It should be nothing to do with

:45:32. > :45:33.religion. All the religious people religion. All the religious people

:45:33. > :45:36.religion. All the religious people have held that sex education and

:45:36. > :45:37.have held that sex education and have held that sex education and

:45:37. > :45:39.the morning poll idea. And the the morning poll idea. And the

:45:39. > :45:44.the morning poll idea. And the problems in Africa with HIV and

:45:44. > :45:46.problems in Africa with HIV and condoms and eights. Everything

:45:46. > :45:47.condoms and eights. Everything condoms and eights. Everything

:45:47. > :45:48.should be about choice. Everybody should be about choice. Everybody

:45:48. > :45:50.should be about choice. Everybody should have choice. If you are

:45:50. > :45:50.should have choice. If you are should have choice. If you are

:45:50. > :45:53.should have choice. If you are against an abortion, do not have an

:45:53. > :45:54.against an abortion, do not have an against an abortion, do not have an

:45:54. > :45:55.against an abortion, do not have an abortion. If you are up against gay

:45:55. > :45:59.abortion. If you are up against gay abortion. If you are up against gay

:45:59. > :46:04.marriage, do not marry a homosexual. marriage, do not marry a homosexual.

:46:04. > :46:05.marriage, do not marry a homosexual. marriage, do not marry a homosexual.

:46:05. > :46:06.I think it should be... And I am I think it should be... And I am

:46:06. > :46:07.I think it should be... And I am intrigued to hear Patrick Harvie

:46:07. > :46:10.intrigued to hear Patrick Harvie intrigued to hear Patrick Harvie

:46:10. > :46:12.describing abortion as a health describing abortion as a health

:46:12. > :46:13.describing abortion as a health issue. I am not sure what

:46:13. > :46:17.issue. I am not sure what definition of health encompasses

:46:17. > :46:20.definition of health encompasses definition of health encompasses

:46:21. > :46:23.killing the unborn. The World killing the unborn. The World

:46:23. > :46:24.Health Organisation's universal Health Organisation's universal

:46:24. > :46:29.Health Organisation's universal description of Health, that is what

:46:29. > :46:30.description of Health, that is what description of Health, that is what

:46:30. > :46:32.description of Health, that is what I would go on. You want Scotland to

:46:32. > :46:34.I would go on. You want Scotland to I would go on. You want Scotland to

:46:34. > :46:37.remain within the UK, but should remain within the UK, but should

:46:37. > :46:40.remain within the UK, but should abortion be in Holyrood's control?

:46:40. > :46:42.abortion be in Holyrood's control? abortion be in Holyrood's control?

:46:42. > :46:43.We already have it devolved in We already have it devolved in

:46:43. > :46:44.Northern Ireland. Health is Northern Ireland. Health is

:46:44. > :46:45.Northern Ireland. Health is devolved to Scottish Parliament so

:46:45. > :46:46.devolved to Scottish Parliament so devolved to Scottish Parliament so

:46:46. > :46:48.logic would suggest that we should logic would suggest that we should

:46:48. > :46:49.logic would suggest that we should have control over abortion. Let's

:46:50. > :46:50.have control over abortion. Let's have control over abortion. Let's

:46:50. > :46:53.have control over abortion. Let's get the view from the Church of

:46:53. > :46:53.get the view from the Church of get the view from the Church of

:46:53. > :46:55.Scotland. The Church of Scotland Scotland. The Church of Scotland

:46:55. > :46:56.Scotland. The Church of Scotland Scotland. The Church of Scotland

:46:56. > :46:57.Scotland. The Church of Scotland has no view as to the outcome of a

:46:57. > :46:58.has no view as to the outcome of a has no view as to the outcome of a

:46:58. > :46:58.has no view as to the outcome of a referendum but we think it is an

:46:58. > :47:00.referendum but we think it is an referendum but we think it is an

:47:00. > :47:01.important issue and a unique time important issue and a unique time

:47:01. > :47:03.important issue and a unique time important issue and a unique time

:47:03. > :47:03.in Scottish history, so we do not in Scottish history, so we do not

:47:03. > :47:04.in Scottish history, so we do not in Scottish history, so we do not

:47:04. > :47:05.tell people what to think. We say, tell people what to think. We say,

:47:05. > :47:06.tell people what to think. We say, tell people what to think. We say,

:47:06. > :47:08.this is now a time to think. In this is now a time to think. In

:47:08. > :47:10.this is now a time to think. In regards the answer to that question,

:47:10. > :47:11.regards the answer to that question, regards the answer to that question,

:47:11. > :47:12.regards the answer to that question, there is a jarring that end of life

:47:12. > :47:13.there is a jarring that end of life there is a jarring that end of life

:47:13. > :47:15.issues are devolved to the Scottish issues are devolved to the Scottish

:47:15. > :47:16.issues are devolved to the Scottish Government and beginning of life

:47:16. > :47:16.Government and beginning of life Government and beginning of life

:47:16. > :47:17.Government and beginning of life issues are not and they should be

:47:17. > :47:19.issues are not and they should be issues are not and they should be

:47:19. > :47:20.held within the Scottish Government. held within the Scottish Government.

:47:20. > :47:21.held within the Scottish Government. held within the Scottish Government.

:47:21. > :47:23.Thank you to all on our panel this Thank you to all on our panel this

:47:23. > :47:23.Thank you to all on our panel this Thank you to all on our panel this

:47:23. > :47:25.evening. This brings us to the end evening. This brings us to the end

:47:25. > :47:26.evening. This brings us to the end of our time from the special

:47:26. > :47:28.of our time from the special of our time from the special

:47:28. > :47:31.edition of Newsnight Scotland. We edition of Newsnight Scotland. We

:47:31. > :47:33.edition of Newsnight Scotland. We edition of Newsnight Scotland. We

:47:33. > :47:34.will return later in the week at will return later in the week at

:47:34. > :47:34.will return later in the week at will return later in the week at

:47:34. > :47:35.the usual time of 11pm here on BBC the usual time of 11pm here on BBC

:47:36. > :47:37.the usual time of 11pm here on BBC the usual time of 11pm here on BBC

:47:37. > :47:39.Two. But I would like to thank our Two. But I would like to thank our

:47:39. > :47:40.Two. But I would like to thank our panellists and our audience here in

:47:40. > :47:42.panellists and our audience here in panellists and our audience here in