:00:14. > :00:15.Tonight on Newsnight Scotland: It's Tonight on Newsnight Scotland: It's
:00:15. > :00:16.Tonight on Newsnight Scotland: It's Tonight on Newsnight Scotland: It's
:00:16. > :00:19.one of the small countries the SNP one of the small countries the SNP
:00:19. > :00:20.one of the small countries the SNP likes to compare Scotland with. So,
:00:20. > :00:20.likes to compare Scotland with. So, likes to compare Scotland with. So,
:00:20. > :00:21.likes to compare Scotland with. So, we've been to Denmark to do just
:00:21. > :00:22.we've been to Denmark to do just we've been to Denmark to do just
:00:22. > :00:23.we've been to Denmark to do just that. And we ask, if the centre-
:00:23. > :00:24.that. And we ask, if the centre- that. And we ask, if the centre-
:00:24. > :00:25.left likes the Scandinavian welfare left likes the Scandinavian welfare
:00:25. > :00:26.left likes the Scandinavian welfare left likes the Scandinavian welfare
:00:26. > :00:27.model so much, why doesn't it adopt model so much, why doesn't it adopt
:00:27. > :00:30.model so much, why doesn't it adopt model so much, why doesn't it adopt
:00:30. > :00:31.the tax policies needed to pay for Good evening. Social justice and
:00:31. > :00:32.Good evening. Social justice and Good evening. Social justice and
:00:32. > :00:33.fairness have, in recent months, fairness have, in recent months,
:00:33. > :00:34.fairness have, in recent months, fairness have, in recent months,
:00:34. > :00:35.been placed at the very heart of been placed at the very heart of
:00:35. > :00:36.been placed at the very heart of been placed at the very heart of
:00:36. > :00:37.the campaign for a Yes vote in next the campaign for a Yes vote in next
:00:37. > :00:38.year's referendum. The argument year's referendum. The argument
:00:38. > :00:39.year's referendum. The argument goes that an independent Scotland,
:00:39. > :00:40.goes that an independent Scotland, goes that an independent Scotland,
:00:40. > :00:40.in charge of all the important in charge of all the important
:00:40. > :00:41.in charge of all the important policy levers and with the
:00:41. > :00:42.policy levers and with the policy levers and with the
:00:42. > :00:43.political will, can tackle many of political will, can tackle many of
:00:43. > :00:44.political will, can tackle many of the intractable problems of poverty
:00:44. > :00:45.the intractable problems of poverty the intractable problems of poverty
:00:45. > :00:46.the intractable problems of poverty as well as even out some of the
:00:46. > :00:47.as well as even out some of the social, educational and health
:00:47. > :00:52.social, educational and health social, educational and health
:00:52. > :00:53.inequalities present in our society. inequalities present in our society.
:00:53. > :00:54.inequalities present in our society. inequalities present in our society.
:00:54. > :00:55.Just look at Norway, say the SNP. Just look at Norway, say the SNP.
:00:55. > :00:56.Just look at Norway, say the SNP. Or Sweden, or, for that matter,
:00:56. > :00:57.Or Sweden, or, for that matter, Denmark. Well, our political
:00:57. > :00:58.Denmark. Well, our political correspondent Raymond Buchanan's
:00:58. > :00:59.correspondent Raymond Buchanan's correspondent Raymond Buchanan's
:00:59. > :01:00.correspondent Raymond Buchanan's been to Copenhagen to see how, in
:01:00. > :01:00.been to Copenhagen to see how, in been to Copenhagen to see how, in
:01:00. > :01:08.been to Copenhagen to see how, in fact, the Danes manage and pay for
:01:08. > :01:13.fact, the Danes manage and pay for their welfare state.
:01:13. > :01:14.their welfare state. their welfare state.
:01:14. > :01:15.Welcome to a small and successful Welcome to a small and successful
:01:15. > :01:17.Welcome to a small and successful European state, but some of the
:01:17. > :01:19.European state, but some of the European state, but some of the
:01:19. > :01:21.happiest citizens on earth. It is happiest citizens on earth. It is
:01:21. > :01:22.little wonder supporters of little wonder supporters of
:01:22. > :01:32.Scottish independent look across Scottish independent look across
:01:32. > :01:33.
:01:33. > :01:37.Scottish independent look across the North Sea for inspiration. Take
:01:37. > :01:38.the North Sea for inspiration. Take the North Sea for inspiration. Take
:01:38. > :01:40.child care. Parents get big state child care. Parents get big state
:01:40. > :01:40.child care. Parents get big state subsidies to have their little ones
:01:40. > :01:43.subsidies to have their little ones subsidies to have their little ones
:01:43. > :01:44.to look dafter. Without it, we to look dafter. Without it, we
:01:44. > :01:45.to look dafter. Without it, we to look dafter. Without it, we
:01:45. > :01:48.could not have this kind of society could not have this kind of society
:01:48. > :01:49.could not have this kind of society we have. Because both parents are
:01:49. > :01:51.we have. Because both parents are we have. Because both parents are
:01:51. > :01:53.working in most households, that working in most households, that
:01:53. > :01:56.working in most households, that working in most households, that
:01:56. > :01:57.his wife. �300 a month buys all-day his wife. �300 a month buys all-day
:01:57. > :01:58.his wife. �300 a month buys all-day childcare. But this kind of benefit
:01:58. > :01:59.childcare. But this kind of benefit childcare. But this kind of benefit
:01:59. > :02:01.is only possible because the Danes is only possible because the Danes
:02:01. > :02:05.is only possible because the Danes is only possible because the Danes
:02:05. > :02:07.pay over half of their wages and pay over half of their wages and
:02:07. > :02:09.pay over half of their wages and pay over half of their wages and
:02:09. > :02:12.taxes. Taxes are way too high. It taxes. Taxes are way too high. It
:02:12. > :02:13.taxes. Taxes are way too high. It taxes. Taxes are way too high. It
:02:13. > :02:14.is unreasonable to pay 65% tax. But is unreasonable to pay 65% tax. But
:02:14. > :02:15.is unreasonable to pay 65% tax. But is unreasonable to pay 65% tax. But
:02:15. > :02:16.for a decade, that is the deal for a decade, that is the deal
:02:16. > :02:19.for a decade, that is the deal which the Danish parliament has
:02:19. > :02:19.which the Danish parliament has which the Danish parliament has
:02:19. > :02:21.offered its people, charging some offered its people, charging some
:02:21. > :02:25.offered its people, charging some of the highest taxes anywhere in
:02:25. > :02:29.of the highest taxes anywhere in of the highest taxes anywhere in
:02:29. > :02:30.the world. But the benefits are the world. But the benefits are
:02:30. > :02:31.the world. But the benefits are the world. But the benefits are
:02:31. > :02:33.generous. If you lose your job in generous. If you lose your job in
:02:33. > :02:35.this country, your unemployment this country, your unemployment
:02:35. > :02:37.this country, your unemployment this country, your unemployment
:02:37. > :02:39.benefit is worth �400 a week! But benefit is worth �400 a week! But
:02:39. > :02:41.benefit is worth �400 a week! But Denmark's welfare system is being
:02:41. > :02:42.Denmark's welfare system is being Denmark's welfare system is being
:02:42. > :02:43.reviewed. The population is getting reviewed. The population is getting
:02:43. > :02:45.reviewed. The population is getting older, meaning that there will be
:02:45. > :02:47.older, meaning that there will be older, meaning that there will be
:02:47. > :02:50.fewer workers to pay taxes. So fewer workers to pay taxes. So
:02:50. > :02:52.fewer workers to pay taxes. So Danes are being asked to work
:02:52. > :02:55.Danes are being asked to work Danes are being asked to work
:02:55. > :02:57.longer. If longevity is increased, longer. If longevity is increased,
:02:57. > :02:58.longer. If longevity is increased, you need to restore the balance
:02:58. > :02:59.you need to restore the balance you need to restore the balance
:02:59. > :03:00.you need to restore the balance between the part of your life that
:03:00. > :03:01.between the part of your life that between the part of your life that
:03:01. > :03:02.between the part of your life that you work and earn money and pay
:03:02. > :03:03.you work and earn money and pay you work and earn money and pay
:03:03. > :03:05.you work and earn money and pay taxes and the part of your life
:03:05. > :03:06.taxes and the part of your life taxes and the part of your life
:03:06. > :03:08.where you enjoy the benefits from where you enjoy the benefits from
:03:08. > :03:10.where you enjoy the benefits from the public system. And the changes
:03:10. > :03:11.the public system. And the changes the public system. And the changes
:03:11. > :03:13.the public system. And the changes to the welfare system have won a
:03:13. > :03:15.to the welfare system have won a broad political support inside
:03:15. > :03:17.broad political support inside broad political support inside
:03:17. > :03:18.Parliament. Of course, there are Parliament. Of course, there are
:03:18. > :03:22.Parliament. Of course, there are differences - some parties are more
:03:22. > :03:23.differences - some parties are more differences - some parties are more
:03:23. > :03:28.differences - some parties are more keen to have lower taxes and put
:03:28. > :03:29.keen to have lower taxes and put keen to have lower taxes and put
:03:29. > :03:30.ceilings on public budgets. There ceilings on public budgets. There
:03:30. > :03:31.ceilings on public budgets. There ceilings on public budgets. There
:03:31. > :03:32.are a number of parties who have are a number of parties who have
:03:32. > :03:33.are a number of parties who have are a number of parties who have
:03:33. > :03:35.more or less a consensus that we more or less a consensus that we
:03:35. > :03:37.more or less a consensus that we more or less a consensus that we
:03:37. > :03:39.should try to keep the model, with should try to keep the model, with
:03:39. > :03:43.should try to keep the model, with adjustments and reforms, but not
:03:43. > :03:44.adjustments and reforms, but not adjustments and reforms, but not
:03:44. > :03:47.adjustments and reforms, but not send a model totally way. John is
:03:47. > :03:49.send a model totally way. John is send a model totally way. John is
:03:49. > :03:50.the finance spokesman for the the finance spokesman for the
:03:50. > :03:51.the finance spokesman for the Danish version of the Labour Party.
:03:51. > :03:52.Danish version of the Labour Party. Danish version of the Labour Party.
:03:52. > :03:54.Danish version of the Labour Party. He says there next targets will be
:03:54. > :03:56.He says there next targets will be He says there next targets will be
:03:56. > :03:57.early retirement and sick benefits. early retirement and sick benefits.
:03:57. > :03:59.early retirement and sick benefits. But he insists the Scandinavian way
:03:59. > :04:05.But he insists the Scandinavian way But he insists the Scandinavian way
:04:05. > :04:07.of delivering what they can survive. of delivering what they can survive.
:04:07. > :04:07.of delivering what they can survive. Yes, a population like this cannot
:04:07. > :04:08.Yes, a population like this cannot Yes, a population like this cannot
:04:08. > :04:10.sustain a welfare system. But we sustain a welfare system. But we
:04:11. > :04:13.sustain a welfare system. But we sustain a welfare system. But we
:04:13. > :04:14.need to look at it on an everyday need to look at it on an everyday
:04:14. > :04:15.need to look at it on an everyday need to look at it on an everyday
:04:15. > :04:17.need to look at it on an everyday basis. Do we do this as good as we
:04:17. > :04:18.basis. Do we do this as good as we basis. Do we do this as good as we
:04:18. > :04:20.basis. Do we do this as good as we basis. Do we do this as good as we
:04:20. > :04:21.can? Is this the way to do this? We can? Is this the way to do this? We
:04:21. > :04:22.can? Is this the way to do this? We can? Is this the way to do this? We
:04:22. > :04:25.have to do their every way. But for have to do their every way. But for
:04:25. > :04:26.Scotland's to copy Denmark's Scotland's to copy Denmark's
:04:26. > :04:28.Scotland's to copy Denmark's welfare benefits would mean a hefty
:04:28. > :04:29.welfare benefits would mean a hefty welfare benefits would mean a hefty
:04:29. > :04:32.welfare benefits would mean a hefty tax increases and none of the major
:04:32. > :04:33.tax increases and none of the major tax increases and none of the major
:04:33. > :04:34.parties are suggesting that. So the parties are suggesting that. So the
:04:34. > :04:36.parties are suggesting that. So the Scandinavian system will not be
:04:36. > :04:38.Scandinavian system will not be Scandinavian system will not be
:04:38. > :04:39.travelling westwards any time soon. travelling westwards any time soon.
:04:39. > :04:40.travelling westwards any time soon. Joining me now from London is
:04:40. > :04:41.Joining me now from London is Joining me now from London is
:04:41. > :04:42.Adrian Wooldridge of The Economist Adrian Wooldridge of The Economist
:04:42. > :04:43.who's written about the who's written about the
:04:43. > :04:44.Scandinavian economies. Here in Scandinavian economies. Here in
:04:44. > :04:45.Scandinavian economies. Here in Glasgow is Jim McCormick, a policy
:04:45. > :04:45.Glasgow is Jim McCormick, a policy Glasgow is Jim McCormick, a policy
:04:45. > :04:46.analyst. He's studied British and analyst. He's studied British and
:04:46. > :04:47.analyst. He's studied British and Danish welfare systems. And Linda
:04:47. > :04:48.Danish welfare systems. And Linda Danish welfare systems. And Linda
:04:48. > :04:49.Fabiani SNP MSP and member of Fabiani SNP MSP and member of
:04:49. > :04:59.Holyrood's Welfare Reform Committee Holyrood's Welfare Reform Committee
:04:59. > :05:01.Holyrood's Welfare Reform Committee Holyrood's Welfare Reform Committee
:05:01. > :05:02.joins us from Edinburgh. You got an joins us from Edinburgh. You got an
:05:02. > :05:05.extensive review on the extensive review on the
:05:05. > :05:06.Scandinavian economy, and whether Scandinavian economy, and whether
:05:06. > :05:08.Scandinavian economy, and whether they could adjust their model to
:05:08. > :05:10.they could adjust their model to they could adjust their model to
:05:10. > :05:11.cope with the realities. You cope with the realities. You
:05:11. > :05:12.cope with the realities. You concluded that they probably could.
:05:12. > :05:14.concluded that they probably could. concluded that they probably could.
:05:14. > :05:16.I think these Scandinavian model I think these Scandinavian model
:05:16. > :05:19.has been changing dramatically has been changing dramatically
:05:19. > :05:20.has been changing dramatically has been changing dramatically
:05:20. > :05:22.since the early 1990s. You had what since the early 1990s. You had what
:05:22. > :05:25.since the early 1990s. You had what was once a socialist set of
:05:25. > :05:25.was once a socialist set of was once a socialist set of
:05:25. > :05:27.countries that have been reforming. countries that have been reforming.
:05:27. > :05:33.countries that have been reforming. There have been privatising the
:05:33. > :05:34.There have been privatising the There have been privatising the
:05:34. > :05:35.delivery of their wealthy services. delivery of their wealthy services.
:05:35. > :05:36.delivery of their wealthy services. delivery of their wealthy services.
:05:36. > :05:37.Denmark is beginning to move in the Denmark is beginning to move in the
:05:37. > :05:42.Denmark is beginning to move in the same direction as Sweden. The
:05:42. > :05:43.same direction as Sweden. The Nordic model is changing
:05:43. > :05:45.Nordic model is changing dramatically. Tax rates, although
:05:45. > :05:45.dramatically. Tax rates, although dramatically. Tax rates, although
:05:45. > :05:47.dramatically. Tax rates, although they may be cutting them, are still
:05:47. > :05:48.they may be cutting them, are still they may be cutting them, are still
:05:48. > :05:50.they may be cutting them, are still high in Denmark - the top rate of
:05:50. > :05:52.high in Denmark - the top rate of high in Denmark - the top rate of
:05:52. > :05:55.high in Denmark - the top rate of tax is 60%. Denmark has hired and
:05:55. > :05:56.tax is 60%. Denmark has hired and tax is 60%. Denmark has hired and
:05:56. > :06:05.Sweden. They are high. -- higher Sweden. They are high. -- higher
:06:05. > :06:06.Sweden. They are high. -- higher Sweden. They are high. -- higher
:06:06. > :06:07.than at Sweden. But there is a than at Sweden. But there is a
:06:08. > :06:10.than at Sweden. But there is a general move towards a more liberal,
:06:11. > :06:13.general move towards a more liberal, general move towards a more liberal,
:06:13. > :06:14.economic model, away from a economic model, away from a
:06:14. > :06:15.economic model, away from a corporate model. I would imagine
:06:15. > :06:16.corporate model. I would imagine corporate model. I would imagine
:06:16. > :06:17.corporate model. I would imagine that in 10 years' time, tax rates
:06:17. > :06:21.that in 10 years' time, tax rates that in 10 years' time, tax rates
:06:21. > :06:22.that in 10 years' time, tax rates will be lower than they are now.
:06:22. > :06:24.will be lower than they are now. will be lower than they are now.
:06:24. > :06:27.will be lower than they are now. The SNP often say it looked to the
:06:27. > :06:29.The SNP often say it looked to the The SNP often say it looked to the
:06:29. > :06:30.small countries. But would you ever small countries. But would you ever
:06:30. > :06:32.small countries. But would you ever small countries. But would you ever
:06:32. > :06:34.be prepared to proposed tax rate of be prepared to proposed tax rate of
:06:34. > :06:35.be prepared to proposed tax rate of be prepared to proposed tax rate of
:06:35. > :06:37.60%? We can't live but that in 60%? We can't live but that in
:06:37. > :06:39.60%? We can't live but that in 60%? We can't live but that in
:06:39. > :06:41.isolation - you have to look at isolation - you have to look at
:06:41. > :06:42.isolation - you have to look at isolation - you have to look at
:06:42. > :06:43.salaries as well. -- look at that. salaries as well. -- look at that.
:06:43. > :06:44.salaries as well. -- look at that. The most important thing is these
:06:44. > :06:51.The most important thing is these The most important thing is these
:06:51. > :06:53.are countries which make their own are countries which make their own
:06:53. > :06:54.decisions. Small, independent decisions. Small, independent
:06:54. > :06:55.decisions. Small, independent countries are doing extremely well,
:06:55. > :06:56.countries are doing extremely well, countries are doing extremely well,
:06:56. > :07:04.countries are doing extremely well, and that is shown by all the
:07:04. > :07:04.and that is shown by all the and that is shown by all the
:07:04. > :07:06.and that is shown by all the studies. I am not quite with you.
:07:06. > :07:08.studies. I am not quite with you. studies. I am not quite with you.
:07:09. > :07:10.studies. I am not quite with you. So you don't want the tax rates?
:07:10. > :07:11.So you don't want the tax rates? So you don't want the tax rates?
:07:11. > :07:14.Lots of small countries have Lots of small countries have
:07:14. > :07:16.Lots of small countries have policies you would find horrendous.
:07:16. > :07:17.policies you would find horrendous. policies you would find horrendous.
:07:17. > :07:18.policies you would find horrendous. Why is that relevant? I thought we
:07:18. > :07:19.Why is that relevant? I thought we Why is that relevant? I thought we
:07:19. > :07:20.should look to Scandinavia because should look to Scandinavia because
:07:20. > :07:21.should look to Scandinavia because should look to Scandinavia because
:07:22. > :07:23.you like a model. There is an awful you like a model. There is an awful
:07:23. > :07:25.you like a model. There is an awful lot of good stuff happening in
:07:25. > :07:26.lot of good stuff happening in lot of good stuff happening in
:07:26. > :07:27.Scandinavia. What am saying is you Scandinavia. What am saying is you
:07:27. > :07:33.Scandinavia. What am saying is you cannot take one thing out in
:07:33. > :07:36.cannot take one thing out in cannot take one thing out in
:07:36. > :07:38.isolation. In Denmark, compared to isolation. In Denmark, compared to
:07:38. > :07:38.isolation. In Denmark, compared to isolation. In Denmark, compared to
:07:39. > :07:43.the UK, 30 is indirect taxation in the UK, 30 is indirect taxation in
:07:43. > :07:46.the UK, 30 is indirect taxation in the UK, 30 is indirect taxation in
:07:46. > :07:49.the UK, which could be compared. -- the UK, which could be compared. --
:07:49. > :07:51.the UK, which could be compared. -- there is. There is more indirect
:07:51. > :07:53.there is. There is more indirect there is. There is more indirect
:07:53. > :07:54.taxation compared to VAT, for taxation compared to VAT, for
:07:54. > :07:56.taxation compared to VAT, for example, fuel. Denmark has made the
:07:56. > :07:57.example, fuel. Denmark has made the example, fuel. Denmark has made the
:07:57. > :08:01.example, fuel. Denmark has made the choice to do really good child care
:08:01. > :08:02.choice to do really good child care choice to do really good child care
:08:02. > :08:04.choice to do really good child care so that people can work. They make
:08:04. > :08:06.so that people can work. They make so that people can work. They make
:08:06. > :08:07.these choices and decisions. That these choices and decisions. That
:08:07. > :08:09.these choices and decisions. That is a choice that that independent
:08:09. > :08:10.is a choice that that independent is a choice that that independent
:08:10. > :08:11.is a choice that that independent nation has taken. But that is paid
:08:11. > :08:16.nation has taken. But that is paid nation has taken. But that is paid
:08:16. > :08:18.nation has taken. But that is paid for by a higher tax rates. I am
:08:18. > :08:19.for by a higher tax rates. I am for by a higher tax rates. I am
:08:19. > :08:21.struggling to see what you would struggling to see what you would
:08:21. > :08:23.struggling to see what you would struggling to see what you would
:08:23. > :08:24.want to copy in a model. What we're want to copy in a model. What we're
:08:24. > :08:26.want to copy in a model. What we're want to copy in a model. What we're
:08:26. > :08:27.would do is look are all the would do is look are all the
:08:27. > :08:28.would do is look are all the different models. We look at what
:08:28. > :08:29.different models. We look at what different models. We look at what
:08:29. > :08:30.different models. We look at what is best and adapted for what is
:08:30. > :08:32.is best and adapted for what is is best and adapted for what is
:08:32. > :08:36.best for your own nation. best for your own nation.
:08:36. > :08:37.Unfortunately, Scotland cannot do Unfortunately, Scotland cannot do
:08:37. > :08:39.Unfortunately, Scotland cannot do Unfortunately, Scotland cannot do
:08:39. > :08:47.that right now. Do you take this that right now. Do you take this
:08:47. > :08:54.that right now. Do you take this sort of think seriously? What
:08:54. > :08:55.sort of think seriously? What sort of think seriously? What
:08:55. > :08:56.sort of think seriously? What should we do? Denmark is a good
:08:56. > :08:57.should we do? Denmark is a good should we do? Denmark is a good
:08:57. > :09:01.example, not just because it has example, not just because it has
:09:01. > :09:02.example, not just because it has the same population as Scotland,
:09:02. > :09:04.the same population as Scotland, the same population as Scotland,
:09:04. > :09:05.but it has had a relatively but it has had a relatively
:09:05. > :09:07.but it has had a relatively sluggish rate of economic growth.
:09:07. > :09:12.sluggish rate of economic growth. sluggish rate of economic growth.
:09:12. > :09:13.But despite that, they have managed But despite that, they have managed
:09:13. > :09:16.But despite that, they have managed to prioritise low cost and high
:09:16. > :09:17.to prioritise low cost and high to prioritise low cost and high
:09:17. > :09:20.quality child care. It is partly quality child care. It is partly
:09:20. > :09:22.quality child care. It is partly about higher taxes, but what is
:09:22. > :09:23.about higher taxes, but what is about higher taxes, but what is
:09:23. > :09:24.interesting is that taxes are interesting is that taxes are
:09:24. > :09:25.interesting is that taxes are relatively low work with employers
:09:25. > :09:29.relatively low work with employers relatively low work with employers
:09:29. > :09:30.than a much of Europe. -- than a much of Europe. --
:09:30. > :09:31.than a much of Europe. -- than a much of Europe. --
:09:31. > :09:35.relatively low were. So it is a relatively low were. So it is a
:09:36. > :09:38.relatively low were. So it is a more complicated set of issues. But
:09:38. > :09:38.more complicated set of issues. But more complicated set of issues. But
:09:38. > :09:43.more complicated set of issues. But this to will have to levy those
:09:43. > :09:49.this to will have to levy those this to will have to levy those
:09:49. > :09:50.this to will have to levy those taxes! -- and they still have to.
:09:50. > :09:51.taxes! -- and they still have to. taxes! -- and they still have to.
:09:51. > :09:52.taxes! -- and they still have to. By the time we get more powers, we
:09:52. > :09:54.By the time we get more powers, we By the time we get more powers, we
:09:54. > :09:55.By the time we get more powers, we will be on a different part way. I
:09:55. > :09:57.will be on a different part way. I will be on a different part way. I
:09:57. > :09:58.will be on a different part way. I am keen we do not use the
:09:58. > :09:59.am keen we do not use the am keen we do not use the
:09:59. > :10:01.am keen we do not use the referendum to stop us doing some of
:10:01. > :10:02.referendum to stop us doing some of referendum to stop us doing some of
:10:02. > :10:03.referendum to stop us doing some of the things, long term, we can do
:10:03. > :10:04.the things, long term, we can do the things, long term, we can do
:10:04. > :10:12.the things, long term, we can do over here. It is not just high
:10:12. > :10:14.over here. It is not just high over here. It is not just high
:10:14. > :10:15.over here. It is not just high taxes, is it? In Denmark, it is
:10:15. > :10:17.taxes, is it? In Denmark, it is taxes, is it? In Denmark, it is
:10:17. > :10:18.taxes, is it? In Denmark, it is easy to hire and fire people as it
:10:18. > :10:24.easy to hire and fire people as it easy to hire and fire people as it
:10:24. > :10:25.is in the United States. Absolutely, is in the United States. Absolutely,
:10:25. > :10:28.is in the United States. Absolutely, they put a huge emphasis on
:10:28. > :10:28.they put a huge emphasis on they put a huge emphasis on
:10:29. > :10:33.flexibility of the labour market. flexibility of the labour market.
:10:33. > :10:34.flexibility of the labour market. flexibility of the labour market.
:10:34. > :10:38.They make it easy to sack people. They make it easy to sack people.
:10:38. > :10:39.They make it easy to sack people. By doing that, they have avoided
:10:39. > :10:41.By doing that, they have avoided By doing that, they have avoided
:10:41. > :10:46.the distinction between people who the distinction between people who
:10:46. > :10:48.the distinction between people who have jobs and people who don't.
:10:48. > :10:49.have jobs and people who don't. have jobs and people who don't.
:10:49. > :10:51.have jobs and people who don't. They are trying to combine the best
:10:51. > :10:53.They are trying to combine the best They are trying to combine the best
:10:53. > :10:54.of both worlds - American dynamism of both worlds - American dynamism
:10:54. > :10:55.of both worlds - American dynamism it with a European security. I
:10:55. > :10:56.it with a European security. I it with a European security. I
:10:56. > :11:03.it with a European security. I think they have done a very good
:11:03. > :11:04.think they have done a very good think they have done a very good
:11:04. > :11:07.think they have done a very good job of that. They don't just say it
:11:07. > :11:08.job of that. They don't just say it job of that. They don't just say it
:11:08. > :11:08.job of that. They don't just say it is easy to hire-and-fire - they put
:11:08. > :11:11.is easy to hire-and-fire - they put is easy to hire-and-fire - they put
:11:11. > :11:12.a lot of money into retraining a lot of money into retraining
:11:12. > :11:14.a lot of money into retraining people. Earlier, you refer to the
:11:14. > :11:15.people. Earlier, you refer to the people. Earlier, you refer to the
:11:15. > :11:16.stimulus programme. They have laid stimulus programme. They have laid
:11:16. > :11:17.stimulus programme. They have laid stimulus programme. They have laid
:11:17. > :11:19.that have they will pay for that - that have they will pay for that -
:11:19. > :11:20.they are cutting benefits, they are cutting benefits,
:11:20. > :11:21.they are cutting benefits, basically, but what they are saying
:11:21. > :11:22.basically, but what they are saying basically, but what they are saying
:11:22. > :11:24.basically, but what they are saying is if you are able to work, you
:11:25. > :11:26.is if you are able to work, you is if you are able to work, you
:11:26. > :11:27.is if you are able to work, you will not get benefits, you would do
:11:27. > :11:28.will not get benefits, you would do will not get benefits, you would do
:11:28. > :11:29.community service. But they were community service. But they were
:11:29. > :11:30.community service. But they were community service. But they were
:11:30. > :11:32.also put a lot of money into also put a lot of money into
:11:32. > :11:33.also put a lot of money into also put a lot of money into
:11:33. > :11:34.training you, to get you back into training you, to get you back into
:11:34. > :11:34.training you, to get you back into training you, to get you back into
:11:34. > :11:35.the labour market. There are to add the labour market. There are to add
:11:35. > :11:38.the labour market. There are to add the labour market. There are to add
:11:38. > :11:41.a knob of things about what they do a knob of things about what they do
:11:41. > :11:42.- enthusing everything with - enthusing everything with
:11:42. > :11:43.- enthusing everything with responsibility, and the second is
:11:43. > :11:44.responsibility, and the second is responsibility, and the second is
:11:44. > :11:51.you should not be spending money you should not be spending money
:11:51. > :11:52.you should not be spending money without raising it. Is there
:11:52. > :12:02.without raising it. Is there without raising it. Is there
:12:02. > :12:03.
:12:03. > :12:04.anything in that for you find anything in that for you find
:12:04. > :12:08.anything in that for you find attractive? When Denmark made these
:12:08. > :12:12.attractive? When Denmark made these attractive? When Denmark made these
:12:12. > :12:12.changes, it was done with a changes, it was done with a
:12:12. > :12:14.changes, it was done with a consultation and with the trade
:12:14. > :12:15.consultation and with the trade consultation and with the trade
:12:15. > :12:16.consultation and with the trade unions. They came up with a package
:12:16. > :12:18.unions. They came up with a package unions. They came up with a package
:12:18. > :12:20.that they thought was best for that they thought was best for
:12:20. > :12:21.that they thought was best for their workforce, that could promote
:12:21. > :12:22.their workforce, that could promote their workforce, that could promote
:12:22. > :12:25.prosperity and fairness. That is prosperity and fairness. That is
:12:25. > :12:28.prosperity and fairness. That is prosperity and fairness. That is
:12:28. > :12:29.what I want for Scotland as well. I what I want for Scotland as well. I
:12:29. > :12:30.what I want for Scotland as well. I what I want for Scotland as well. I
:12:30. > :12:33.and confused again - so you say you and confused again - so you say you
:12:33. > :12:33.and confused again - so you say you like the American policy? I don't
:12:34. > :12:36.like the American policy? I don't like the American policy? I don't
:12:36. > :12:38.know what you are confused, Gordon. know what you are confused, Gordon.
:12:38. > :12:39.know what you are confused, Gordon. know what you are confused, Gordon.
:12:39. > :12:40.When Denmark did this, it was done When Denmark did this, it was done
:12:40. > :12:42.When Denmark did this, it was done over a long period with
:12:42. > :12:43.over a long period with over a long period with
:12:43. > :12:45.consultation. There is no reason consultation. There is no reason
:12:45. > :12:47.consultation. There is no reason why Scotland cannot do the same.
:12:47. > :12:51.why Scotland cannot do the same. why Scotland cannot do the same.
:12:51. > :12:56.What about their well fair reforms? What about their well fair reforms?
:12:56. > :12:59.What about their well fair reforms? -- welfare reforms. You won't be
:12:59. > :13:00.-- welfare reforms. You won't be -- welfare reforms. You won't be
:13:00. > :13:01.allowed to claim benefit, you were allowed to claim benefit, you were
:13:01. > :13:03.allowed to claim benefit, you were going to community service, but
:13:03. > :13:04.going to community service, but going to community service, but
:13:04. > :13:07.going to community service, but they will be retrained. They have a
:13:07. > :13:11.they will be retrained. They have a very good retraining programme.
:13:11. > :13:13.very good retraining programme. Unfortunately, here, a welfare
:13:13. > :13:14.Unfortunately, here, a welfare Unfortunately, here, a welfare
:13:14. > :13:15.committee only looks at what committee only looks at what
:13:15. > :13:18.committee only looks at what happens with welfare reform. What
:13:18. > :13:19.happens with welfare reform. What happens with welfare reform. What
:13:19. > :13:21.happens with welfare reform. What we should be looking at is a tax
:13:21. > :13:24.we should be looking at is a tax we should be looking at is a tax
:13:24. > :13:25.system and welfare system that is system and welfare system that is
:13:25. > :13:27.system and welfare system that is integrated. We can be looking at
:13:27. > :13:28.integrated. We can be looking at integrated. We can be looking at
:13:28. > :13:33.integrated. We can be looking at things like that. What you find a
:13:33. > :13:34.things like that. What you find a things like that. What you find a
:13:34. > :13:38.things like that. What you find a tractor with this model? -- what do
:13:38. > :13:39.tractor with this model? -- what do tractor with this model? -- what do
:13:39. > :13:41.you find attractive. What I've find you find attractive. What I've find
:13:41. > :13:42.you find attractive. What I've find attractive is the ability to sit
:13:42. > :13:49.attractive is the ability to sit attractive is the ability to sit
:13:49. > :13:50.down and talk these things through. down and talk these things through.
:13:50. > :13:55.down and talk these things through. They do make tough decisions, don't
:13:55. > :13:56.They do make tough decisions, don't They do make tough decisions, don't
:13:56. > :13:59.They do make tough decisions, don't they? There is a higher rate of
:13:59. > :14:00.they? There is a higher rate of conditionality with Nordic
:14:00. > :14:03.conditionality with Nordic conditionality with Nordic
:14:03. > :14:06.countries - you are expected to countries - you are expected to
:14:06. > :14:06.countries - you are expected to countries - you are expected to
:14:06. > :14:13.participate. And that is it -- and participate. And that is it -- and
:14:13. > :14:14.participate. And that is it -- and that is accepted by the population?
:14:14. > :14:17.that is accepted by the population? that is accepted by the population?
:14:17. > :14:20.We have labour market failures here. We have labour market failures here.
:14:20. > :14:24.That conditionality and That conditionality and
:14:24. > :14:25.responsibilities, people are responsibilities, people are
:14:25. > :14:27.responsibilities, people are underpinning them. People know that
:14:27. > :14:30.underpinning them. People know that underpinning them. People know that
:14:30. > :14:31.taking part in these programmes can taking part in these programmes can
:14:31. > :14:31.taking part in these programmes can taking part in these programmes can
:14:31. > :14:37.lead somewhere. But a to is the lead somewhere. But a to is the
:14:37. > :14:40.lead somewhere. But a to is the culmination of the tough laugh --
:14:40. > :14:44.culmination of the tough laugh -- culmination of the tough laugh --
:14:44. > :14:46.tough laugh. We will invest money tough laugh. We will invest money
:14:46. > :14:48.tough laugh. We will invest money in you, almost individual mentoring.
:14:48. > :14:50.in you, almost individual mentoring. in you, almost individual mentoring.
:14:50. > :14:51.in you, almost individual mentoring. It is, but it is investing your
:14:52. > :14:53.It is, but it is investing your It is, but it is investing your
:14:53. > :14:54.money. The big difference between money. The big difference between
:14:54. > :14:55.money. The big difference between money. The big difference between
:14:55. > :14:56.the UK, Scotland and Denmark is the the UK, Scotland and Denmark is the
:14:56. > :15:02.the UK, Scotland and Denmark is the the UK, Scotland and Denmark is the
:15:02. > :15:04.way in which they have not relied way in which they have not relied
:15:04. > :15:07.way in which they have not relied on means testing. People pay end
:15:07. > :15:17.on means testing. People pay end on means testing. People pay end
:15:17. > :15:21.
:15:21. > :15:23.They are universal benefits. That They are universal benefits. That
:15:23. > :15:25.They are universal benefits. That They are universal benefits. That
:15:25. > :15:28.is not trust in Denmark. That is is not trust in Denmark. That is
:15:28. > :15:30.is not trust in Denmark. That is is not trust in Denmark. That is
:15:30. > :15:30.right. We must not paint to utopian right. We must not paint to utopian
:15:30. > :15:31.right. We must not paint to utopian right. We must not paint to utopian
:15:31. > :15:35.picture. When I was there a couple picture. When I was there a couple
:15:35. > :15:37.picture. When I was there a couple picture. When I was there a couple
:15:37. > :15:38.of months ago, there was a debate of months ago, there was a debate
:15:38. > :15:39.of months ago, there was a debate about lazy Robert, who didn't have
:15:39. > :15:40.about lazy Robert, who didn't have about lazy Robert, who didn't have
:15:40. > :15:41.about lazy Robert, who didn't have to work and he had benefits and
:15:41. > :15:43.to work and he had benefits and to work and he had benefits and
:15:43. > :15:44.everybody was upset about that. I everybody was upset about that. I
:15:44. > :15:45.everybody was upset about that. I everybody was upset about that. I
:15:45. > :15:46.wanted to ask you, one of the wanted to ask you, one of the
:15:46. > :15:48.wanted to ask you, one of the wanted to ask you, one of the
:15:48. > :15:49.things that came out of your report things that came out of your report
:15:49. > :15:50.things that came out of your report is how pragmatic they are. They
:15:50. > :15:52.is how pragmatic they are. They is how pragmatic they are. They
:15:52. > :15:56.entertain things that would be entertain things that would be
:15:56. > :15:57.entertain things that would be taboo in Scotland. In Sweden, let's
:15:57. > :15:58.taboo in Scotland. In Sweden, let's taboo in Scotland. In Sweden, let's
:15:58. > :15:59.have private hospitals, they have have private hospitals, they have
:15:59. > :16:01.have private hospitals, they have without the system where parents
:16:01. > :16:02.without the system where parents without the system where parents
:16:02. > :16:03.without the system where parents can make -- take money from the
:16:03. > :16:06.can make -- take money from the can make -- take money from the
:16:06. > :16:09.state, and send children to private state, and send children to private
:16:09. > :16:09.state, and send children to private schools. Private schools run by
:16:10. > :16:12.schools. Private schools run by schools. Private schools run by
:16:12. > :16:13.private equity companies. And the private equity companies. And the
:16:14. > :16:14.private equity companies. And the system in Denmark is one whereby
:16:14. > :16:15.system in Denmark is one whereby system in Denmark is one whereby
:16:15. > :16:17.system in Denmark is one whereby you can tap -- top up your vouchers
:16:17. > :16:18.you can tap -- top up your vouchers you can tap -- top up your vouchers
:16:18. > :16:20.you can tap -- top up your vouchers and you can spend 25% of the cost
:16:20. > :16:21.and you can spend 25% of the cost and you can spend 25% of the cost
:16:21. > :16:22.and you can spend 25% of the cost of going to state schools with your
:16:22. > :16:26.of going to state schools with your of going to state schools with your
:16:26. > :16:27.of going to state schools with your own money. So it is a sort of...
:16:27. > :16:29.own money. So it is a sort of... own money. So it is a sort of...
:16:29. > :16:30.Failure of the distinction that we Failure of the distinction that we
:16:30. > :16:32.Failure of the distinction that we have absolutely between the public
:16:32. > :16:33.have absolutely between the public have absolutely between the public
:16:33. > :16:35.have absolutely between the public and private sector. It is a very
:16:35. > :16:37.and private sector. It is a very pragmatic post-ideological politics.
:16:37. > :16:38.pragmatic post-ideological politics. pragmatic post-ideological politics.
:16:38. > :16:41.pragmatic post-ideological politics. I am very curious whether you find
:16:41. > :16:42.I am very curious whether you find I am very curious whether you find
:16:42. > :16:43.any of that attractive? Well, small any of that attractive? Well, small
:16:43. > :16:46.any of that attractive? Well, small nations can be pragmatic. They can
:16:46. > :16:47.nations can be pragmatic. They can nations can be pragmatic. They can
:16:47. > :16:48.be fruitful. Denmark has free be fruitful. Denmark has free
:16:48. > :16:51.education. I understand right education. I understand right
:16:51. > :16:53.education. I understand right through to PhD level... Can you
:16:53. > :16:55.through to PhD level... Can you through to PhD level... Can you
:16:55. > :16:56.entertain the idea of public -- entertain the idea of public --
:16:56. > :16:57.private companies running schools private companies running schools
:16:57. > :16:58.private companies running schools private companies running schools
:16:58. > :17:00.as they do in Sweden? Are I don't as they do in Sweden? Are I don't
:17:00. > :17:06.as they do in Sweden? Are I don't know enough about it...
:17:06. > :17:08.know enough about it... know enough about it...
:17:08. > :17:10.parents... We are committed to free parents... We are committed to free
:17:10. > :17:11.parents... We are committed to free education and we believe in public
:17:11. > :17:13.education and we believe in public education without private companies
:17:13. > :17:16.education without private companies education without private companies
:17:16. > :17:17.running the show. Thank you all running the show. Thank you all
:17:17. > :17:18.running the show. Thank you all very much. Frequently, the front
:17:18. > :17:22.very much. Frequently, the front very much. Frequently, the front
:17:22. > :17:22.pages, starting with the Herald. pages, starting with the Herald.
:17:22. > :17:25.pages, starting with the Herald. Police misuse of and to sectarian
:17:25. > :17:28.Police misuse of and to sectarian Police misuse of and to sectarian
:17:28. > :17:31.powers. Fans were harassed, it is powers. Fans were harassed, it is
:17:31. > :17:33.claimed. The Scotsman, courts claimed. The Scotsman, courts
:17:33. > :17:34.claimed. The Scotsman, courts reform to give quicker, cheaper
:17:34. > :17:35.reform to give quicker, cheaper reform to give quicker, cheaper
:17:35. > :17:36.justice is its headline. That is justice is its headline. That is
:17:36. > :17:37.justice is its headline. That is justice is its headline. That is
:17:37. > :17:38.all we have time for tonight. I all we have time for tonight. I
:17:38. > :17:39.all we have time for tonight. I all we have time for tonight. I