:00:44. > :00:45.The Archbishop appointed as The Archbishop appointed as
:00:46. > :00:46.temporary replacement for Cardinal temporary replacement for Cardinal
:00:46. > :00:47.temporary replacement for Cardinal Keith O'Brien has celebrated mass
:00:47. > :00:48.Keith O'Brien has celebrated mass Keith O'Brien has celebrated mass
:00:48. > :00:49.Keith O'Brien has celebrated mass for the first time at St Mary's
:00:49. > :00:50.for the first time at St Mary's C'athedral in Edinburgh, since
:00:50. > :00:51.C'athedral in Edinburgh, since C'athedral in Edinburgh, since
:00:51. > :00:52.taking over as administrator of the taking over as administrator of the
:00:52. > :00:53.taking over as administrator of the Archdiocese of Edinburgh and St
:00:53. > :00:54.Archdiocese of Edinburgh and St Archdiocese of Edinburgh and St
:00:54. > :00:55.Andrews. So does this mark a Andrews. So does this mark a
:00:55. > :00:56.turning point for Scotland's turning point for Scotland's
:00:56. > :00:57.turning point for Scotland's Catholic community? What is the
:00:57. > :00:57.Catholic community? What is the Catholic community? What is the
:00:57. > :00:59.future for a church that according future for a church that according
:00:59. > :00:59.future for a church that according to one commentator is facing its
:00:59. > :01:06.to one commentator is facing its biggest crisis since the
:01:06. > :01:09.biggest crisis since the Reformation? Sally McNair reports.
:01:09. > :01:10.Reformation? Sally McNair reports. Unprecedented times for today's
:01:10. > :01:12.Unprecedented times for today's Unprecedented times for today's
:01:12. > :01:14.Roman Catholics. Pope Benedict XVI Roman Catholics. Pope Benedict XVI
:01:14. > :01:15.Roman Catholics. Pope Benedict XVI delivered his final worlds as Pope
:01:15. > :01:16.delivered his final worlds as Pope delivered his final worlds as Pope
:01:16. > :01:17.before taking leave of the Vatican before taking leave of the Vatican
:01:17. > :01:23.before taking leave of the Vatican before taking leave of the Vatican
:01:23. > :01:24.to spend his final days living as a pilgrim.
:01:24. > :01:26.pilgrim. pilgrim.
:01:26. > :01:30.Our holy Father, Pope Benedict XVI, Our holy Father, Pope Benedict XVI,
:01:30. > :01:31.had appointed me... Unchartered had appointed me... Unchartered
:01:31. > :01:32.waters for Scotland's Roman waters for Scotland's Roman
:01:32. > :01:33.waters for Scotland's Roman Catholics too as the Archbishop
:01:33. > :01:34.Catholics too as the Archbishop Catholics too as the Archbishop
:01:35. > :01:36.told worshippers in Edinburgh he told worshippers in Edinburgh he
:01:36. > :01:39.told worshippers in Edinburgh he understands their state of shock
:01:39. > :01:39.understands their state of shock understands their state of shock
:01:39. > :01:41.for the loss of their shepherd for the loss of their shepherd
:01:41. > :01:41.following Cardinal Keith O'Brien's following Cardinal Keith O'Brien's
:01:41. > :01:44.following Cardinal Keith O'Brien's resignation. The Archbishop was not
:01:44. > :01:45.resignation. The Archbishop was not resignation. The Archbishop was not
:01:45. > :01:46.available for interview, but a available for interview, but a
:01:46. > :01:47.available for interview, but a spokesman for the Catholic Church
:01:47. > :01:49.spokesman for the Catholic Church spokesman for the Catholic Church
:01:49. > :01:50.in Scotland is adamant that while in Scotland is adamant that while
:01:50. > :01:52.in Scotland is adamant that while in Scotland is adamant that while
:01:52. > :01:53.it may be troubled, it is not a it may be troubled, it is not a
:01:53. > :01:54.it may be troubled, it is not a church in crisis. There has been
:01:54. > :01:57.church in crisis. There has been church in crisis. There has been
:01:57. > :01:58.damage done, yes. There is no damage done, yes. There is no
:01:58. > :02:00.damage done, yes. There is no question about that. I think
:02:00. > :02:03.question about that. I think allegations against individuals,
:02:03. > :02:03.particularly high-profile particularly high-profile
:02:03. > :02:05.particularly high-profile individuals and when corruption is
:02:05. > :02:06.individuals and when corruption is individuals and when corruption is
:02:06. > :02:07.alleged elsewhere in the church, it alleged elsewhere in the church, it
:02:07. > :02:09.alleged elsewhere in the church, it absolutely does damage the standing
:02:09. > :02:10.absolutely does damage the standing absolutely does damage the standing
:02:10. > :02:11.absolutely does damage the standing and the perception of the church in
:02:11. > :02:12.and the perception of the church in and the perception of the church in
:02:12. > :02:14.and the perception of the church in the widest sense in so far as the
:02:14. > :02:14.the widest sense in so far as the the widest sense in so far as the
:02:14. > :02:15.faith of individual Catholics is faith of individual Catholics is
:02:15. > :02:16.faith of individual Catholics is concerned, I'd be very cautious
:02:16. > :02:22.concerned, I'd be very cautious concerned, I'd be very cautious
:02:22. > :02:23.about passing judgment on that. about passing judgment on that.
:02:23. > :02:25.about passing judgment on that. Lift up your hearts. Undeniably,
:02:25. > :02:27.Lift up your hearts. Undeniably, Lift up your hearts. Undeniably,
:02:27. > :02:28.though, there is an air of though, there is an air of
:02:28. > :02:29.though, there is an air of fragility, seabs of unease amongst
:02:29. > :02:30.fragility, seabs of unease amongst fragility, seabs of unease amongst
:02:30. > :02:31.practising Catholics. Many put the practising Catholics. Many put the
:02:31. > :02:33.practising Catholics. Many put the practising Catholics. Many put the
:02:33. > :02:33.blame at the door of a hierarchy blame at the door of a hierarchy
:02:33. > :02:36.blame at the door of a hierarchy which has appeared unwelcoming and
:02:36. > :02:37.which has appeared unwelcoming and out of touch.
:02:37. > :02:38.out of touch. out of touch.
:02:38. > :02:41.out of touch. I think if there had been more lay
:02:41. > :02:42.I think if there had been more lay I think if there had been more lay
:02:42. > :02:43.voices being listened to rather voices being listened to rather
:02:43. > :02:44.voices being listened to rather voices being listened to rather
:02:44. > :02:45.than being preached at, some of the than being preached at, some of the
:02:45. > :02:45.than being preached at, some of the than being preached at, some of the
:02:46. > :02:47.errors we have had would not have errors we have had would not have
:02:47. > :02:47.errors we have had would not have errors we have had would not have
:02:47. > :02:48.occurred, but I think there is a occurred, but I think there is a
:02:48. > :02:49.occurred, but I think there is a healing process to be going through.
:02:49. > :02:50.healing process to be going through. healing process to be going through.
:02:50. > :02:53.healing process to be going through. There are people who feel that they
:02:53. > :02:54.There are people who feel that they There are people who feel that they
:02:54. > :02:55.have been pushed away from the have been pushed away from the
:02:55. > :02:56.have been pushed away from the have been pushed away from the
:02:56. > :02:57.church - the divorced, the gay. I church - the divorced, the gay. I
:02:57. > :02:58.church - the divorced, the gay. I church - the divorced, the gay. I
:02:58. > :02:59.don't think there is a Lord that don't think there is a Lord that
:02:59. > :03:00.don't think there is a Lord that don't think there is a Lord that
:03:00. > :03:02.wouldn't say to the divorced or gay, wouldn't say to the divorced or gay,
:03:02. > :03:03.wouldn't say to the divorced or gay, wouldn't say to the divorced or gay,
:03:03. > :03:04.you're not welcome at my table, and you're not welcome at my table, and
:03:04. > :03:06.you're not welcome at my table, and you're not welcome at my table, and
:03:06. > :03:07.I think the church has to start I think the church has to start
:03:07. > :03:08.I think the church has to start I think the church has to start
:03:08. > :03:09.thinking how do we reconnect by the thinking how do we reconnect by the
:03:09. > :03:10.thinking how do we reconnect by the hurt taken by some public stance
:03:11. > :03:12.hurt taken by some public stance hurt taken by some public stance
:03:12. > :03:12.taken by some elements within the taken by some elements within the
:03:12. > :03:15.taken by some elements within the church. How does that healing
:03:15. > :03:16.church. How does that healing church. How does that healing
:03:16. > :03:17.process start? What'll it take to process start? What'll it take to
:03:17. > :03:19.process start? What'll it take to restore confidence in the Catholic
:03:19. > :03:21.restore confidence in the Catholic restore confidence in the Catholic
:03:21. > :03:23.Church in Scotland? I'm actually to Church in Scotland? I'm actually to
:03:23. > :03:24.Church in Scotland? I'm actually to some extent upbeat about the medium
:03:24. > :03:25.some extent upbeat about the medium some extent upbeat about the medium
:03:26. > :03:28.and long-term development of the and long-term development of the
:03:28. > :03:28.and long-term development of the church because I know from my
:03:29. > :03:30.church because I know from my church because I know from my
:03:30. > :03:32.historical studies that often out historical studies that often out
:03:32. > :03:33.historical studies that often out of a terrible crisis can compostive
:03:33. > :03:34.of a terrible crisis can compostive of a terrible crisis can compostive
:03:34. > :03:35.opportunity, but that depends on opportunity, but that depends on
:03:35. > :03:37.opportunity, but that depends on how well that's managed, and that's
:03:37. > :03:39.how well that's managed, and that's how well that's managed, and that's
:03:39. > :03:41.how well that's managed, and that's where the big "if" comes in - how
:03:41. > :03:42.where the big "if" comes in - how where the big "if" comes in - how
:03:42. > :03:43.where the big "if" comes in - how where the big "if" comes in - how
:03:43. > :03:44.well that can be - if we can learn well that can be - if we can learn
:03:44. > :03:45.well that can be - if we can learn well that can be - if we can learn
:03:45. > :03:46.from this and move on in a coherent, from this and move on in a coherent,
:03:46. > :03:47.from this and move on in a coherent, positive way. There will be change
:03:47. > :03:49.positive way. There will be change positive way. There will be change
:03:49. > :03:50.positive way. There will be change - of course there will - because we
:03:50. > :03:51.- of course there will - because we - of course there will - because we
:03:51. > :03:52.expect new bishops to be appointed. expect new bishops to be appointed.
:03:52. > :03:54.expect new bishops to be appointed. Those who are leaving are leaving
:03:54. > :03:55.Those who are leaving are leaving Those who are leaving are leaving
:03:55. > :03:56.Those who are leaving are leaving on the grounds of age, because they
:03:56. > :03:57.on the grounds of age, because they on the grounds of age, because they
:03:57. > :03:59.have reached their retirement age, have reached their retirement age,
:03:59. > :03:59.have reached their retirement age, have reached their retirement age,
:04:00. > :04:00.which in the church is 75. Again, which in the church is 75. Again,
:04:00. > :04:01.which in the church is 75. Again, we can expect they'll be replaced
:04:01. > :04:02.we can expect they'll be replaced we can expect they'll be replaced
:04:02. > :04:03.we can expect they'll be replaced by others who are younger than them.
:04:03. > :04:05.by others who are younger than them. by others who are younger than them.
:04:05. > :04:07.by others who are younger than them. So we're going to end up with a
:04:07. > :04:08.So we're going to end up with a So we're going to end up with a
:04:08. > :04:09.younger Conference of Bishops and younger Conference of Bishops and
:04:09. > :04:15.younger Conference of Bishops and with new bishops, so of itself
:04:15. > :04:16.with new bishops, so of itself Will a turnover of personnel on its
:04:16. > :04:17.Will a turnover of personnel on its Will a turnover of personnel on its
:04:17. > :04:19.own be enough? Does it need own be enough? Does it need
:04:19. > :04:19.own be enough? Does it need structural reform, or is a
:04:19. > :04:21.structural reform, or is a fundamental change of priorities
:04:21. > :04:22.fundamental change of priorities fundamental change of priorities
:04:22. > :04:25.needed to make the faithful more needed to make the faithful more
:04:25. > :04:26.comfortable with their church? comfortable with their church?
:04:26. > :04:27.comfortable with their church? comfortable with their church?
:04:27. > :04:29.We will survive this - the most We will survive this - the most
:04:29. > :04:30.We will survive this - the most important question is, do we learn
:04:30. > :04:32.important question is, do we learn important question is, do we learn
:04:32. > :04:33.important question is, do we learn from this? Do we grow from this
:04:33. > :04:33.from this? Do we grow from this from this? Do we grow from this
:04:33. > :04:34.from this? Do we grow from this now? If I didn't think There was a
:04:34. > :04:35.now? If I didn't think There was a now? If I didn't think There was a
:04:35. > :04:37.prospect of growth within the prospect of growth within the
:04:37. > :04:38.prospect of growth within the church, I would find myself another
:04:38. > :04:39.church, I would find myself another church, I would find myself another
:04:39. > :04:40.church, but I don't believe there church, but I don't believe there
:04:40. > :04:42.church, but I don't believe there is another church that better
:04:42. > :04:44.is another church that better is another church that better
:04:44. > :04:47.represents what I believe, what I represents what I believe, what I
:04:47. > :04:47.represents what I believe, what I alirm. I'll be Catholic until my
:04:47. > :04:48.alirm. I'll be Catholic until my alirm. I'll be Catholic until my
:04:48. > :04:49.grave. I think other Scottish grave. I think other Scottish
:04:49. > :04:50.grave. I think other Scottish Catholics will as well. But it
:04:50. > :04:51.Catholics will as well. But it Catholics will as well. But it
:04:51. > :04:52.Catholics will as well. But it would be a mistake to think, just
:04:52. > :04:56.would be a mistake to think, just would be a mistake to think, just
:04:56. > :04:57.pick ourselves up from this. Stick pick ourselves up from this. Stick
:04:57. > :04:58.pick ourselves up from this. Stick together. Nothing needs to change.
:04:58. > :04:59.together. Nothing needs to change. together. Nothing needs to change.
:04:59. > :05:00.together. Nothing needs to change. If we want to see growth and
:05:00. > :05:01.If we want to see growth and If we want to see growth and
:05:01. > :05:03.If we want to see growth and renewal in the church, we have to
:05:03. > :05:03.renewal in the church, we have to renewal in the church, we have to
:05:03. > :05:05.learn from what's unfolded. learn from what's unfolded.
:05:05. > :05:06.learn from what's unfolded. cannot tell - you cannot speculate
:05:06. > :05:07.cannot tell - you cannot speculate cannot tell - you cannot speculate
:05:07. > :05:07.cannot tell - you cannot speculate on the future. It's dangerous to do.
:05:07. > :05:08.on the future. It's dangerous to do. on the future. It's dangerous to do.
:05:08. > :05:09.on the future. It's dangerous to do. on the future. It's dangerous to do.
:05:09. > :05:11.There is a story - let me put it There is a story - let me put it
:05:11. > :05:13.There is a story - let me put it There is a story - let me put it
:05:13. > :05:22.There is a story - let me put it this way - I try to avoid it.
:05:22. > :05:23.this way - I try to avoid it. this way - I try to avoid it.
:05:23. > :05:24.joined by three well-known Scottish joined by three well-known Scottish
:05:24. > :05:25.Catholics, Professor John Haldane, Catholics, Professor John Haldane,
:05:25. > :05:26.Catholics, Professor John Haldane, who's a consultor to the Vatican,
:05:26. > :05:27.who's a consultor to the Vatican, who's a consultor to the Vatican,
:05:27. > :05:28.is in Dundee. Journalist Katie is in Dundee. Journalist Katie
:05:28. > :05:29.is in Dundee. Journalist Katie is in Dundee. Journalist Katie
:05:29. > :05:29.Grant is here in Glasgow, as is Grant is here in Glasgow, as is
:05:29. > :05:30.Grant is here in Glasgow, as is writer and former Lord Provost
:05:30. > :05:32.writer and former Lord Provost writer and former Lord Provost
:05:32. > :05:33.Michael Kelly. Just on the Michael Kelly. Just on the
:05:33. > :05:34.Michael Kelly. Just on the situation of Cardinal Keith O'Brien,
:05:34. > :05:35.situation of Cardinal Keith O'Brien, situation of Cardinal Keith O'Brien,
:05:35. > :05:37.situation of Cardinal Keith O'Brien, I was reading a piece you had
:05:37. > :05:38.I was reading a piece you had I was reading a piece you had
:05:38. > :05:39.written for the Tablet today. The written for the Tablet today. The
:05:39. > :05:40.written for the Tablet today. The implication is he was resigned, if
:05:40. > :05:41.implication is he was resigned, if implication is he was resigned, if
:05:41. > :05:43.implication is he was resigned, if I can put it that way, in other
:05:43. > :05:44.I can put it that way, in other I can put it that way, in other
:05:44. > :05:45.words, that it wasn't an entirely words, that it wasn't an entirely
:05:45. > :05:47.words, that it wasn't an entirely voluntary decision. That is correct.
:05:47. > :05:49.voluntary decision. That is correct. voluntary decision. That is correct.
:05:49. > :05:50.voluntary decision. That is correct. Right. I mean, I think there are
:05:50. > :05:51.Right. I mean, I think there are Right. I mean, I think there are
:05:51. > :05:52.two dimensions to this that perhaps two dimensions to this that perhaps
:05:52. > :05:53.two dimensions to this that perhaps need to be clarified. One is,
:05:53. > :05:56.need to be clarified. One is, need to be clarified. One is,
:05:56. > :05:59.remember, he was an Archbishop, and remember, he was an Archbishop, and
:05:59. > :06:00.remember, he was an Archbishop, and he is also a Cardinal. Rome's
:06:00. > :06:04.he is also a Cardinal. Rome's he is also a Cardinal. Rome's
:06:04. > :06:06.decision thus far concerned the decision thus far concerned the
:06:06. > :06:08.decision thus far concerned the acceptance of a predelivered letter
:06:08. > :06:08.acceptance of a predelivered letter acceptance of a predelivered letter
:06:08. > :06:12.of resignation as Archbishop. What of resignation as Archbishop. What
:06:12. > :06:14.of resignation as Archbishop. What was resolved in the course of
:06:14. > :06:15.was resolved in the course of Saturday and Sunday, principally
:06:15. > :06:17.Saturday and Sunday, principally Saturday and Sunday, principally
:06:17. > :06:18.Saturday and Sunday, principally Sunday, was a decision on his part,
:06:18. > :06:19.Sunday, was a decision on his part, Sunday, was a decision on his part,
:06:19. > :06:20.an entirely voluntary decision on an entirely voluntary decision on
:06:20. > :06:22.an entirely voluntary decision on an entirely voluntary decision on
:06:22. > :06:22.his part, not to go to the conclave, his part, not to go to the conclave,
:06:22. > :06:24.his part, not to go to the conclave, his part, not to go to the conclave,
:06:24. > :06:25.which he'd still be entitled to go which he'd still be entitled to go
:06:25. > :06:26.which he'd still be entitled to go which he'd still be entitled to go
:06:26. > :06:27.to as a Cardinal. That's nothing to to as a Cardinal. That's nothing to
:06:27. > :06:31.to as a Cardinal. That's nothing to do with his position as an
:06:31. > :06:32.do with his position as an Archbishop. Right. Basically, the
:06:32. > :06:32.Archbishop. Right. Basically, the Archbishop. Right. Basically, the
:06:32. > :06:41.Archbishop. Right. Basically, the vet can made it quite clear - we
:06:41. > :06:42.vet can made it quite clear - we The Vatican chose to accept his
:06:42. > :06:43.The Vatican chose to accept his The Vatican chose to accept his
:06:43. > :06:44.resignation and I presume judged resignation and I presume judged
:06:44. > :06:46.resignation and I presume judged there was reason to do so.
:06:46. > :06:51.there was reason to do so. there was reason to do so.
:06:51. > :06:53.Right. At the beginning of the Right. At the beginning of the
:06:53. > :06:54.Right. At the beginning of the article you wrote, you rather pored
:06:54. > :06:55.article you wrote, you rather pored article you wrote, you rather pored
:06:55. > :06:57.scorn on the media for speculating scorn on the media for speculating
:06:57. > :06:58.scorn on the media for speculating scorn on the media for speculating
:06:58. > :06:59.about what had gone on in this about what had gone on in this
:06:59. > :07:00.affair and suggesting some affair and suggesting some
:07:00. > :07:01.affair and suggesting some Catholics had been jumping to
:07:01. > :07:02.Catholics had been jumping to Catholics had been jumping to
:07:02. > :07:05.conclusions, but towards the end of conclusions, but towards the end of
:07:05. > :07:07.conclusions, but towards the end of the article you say, "Who benefited
:07:07. > :07:08.the article you say, "Who benefited the article you say, "Who benefited
:07:08. > :07:09.from these accusation being made from these accusation being made
:07:09. > :07:10.from these accusation being made public?" How would you answer your
:07:10. > :07:12.public?" How would you answer your public?" How would you answer your
:07:12. > :07:13.public?" How would you answer your own question? Well, I think the -
:07:13. > :07:14.own question? Well, I think the - own question? Well, I think the -
:07:14. > :07:15.own question? Well, I think the - these are two different points in a
:07:15. > :07:16.these are two different points in a these are two different points in a
:07:16. > :07:17.these are two different points in a way. I think the remark I was
:07:17. > :07:19.way. I think the remark I was way. I think the remark I was
:07:19. > :07:20.offering at the beginning of this offering at the beginning of this
:07:20. > :07:21.offering at the beginning of this offering at the beginning of this
:07:21. > :07:22.is there was a great deal of is there was a great deal of
:07:22. > :07:23.is there was a great deal of commentary had come out from people
:07:23. > :07:25.commentary had come out from people commentary had come out from people
:07:25. > :07:26.who knew nothing whatsoever about who knew nothing whatsoever about
:07:26. > :07:27.who knew nothing whatsoever about the circumstances. I mean, I really
:07:27. > :07:29.the circumstances. I mean, I really the circumstances. I mean, I really
:07:29. > :07:30.do mean knew nothing whatsoever do mean knew nothing whatsoever
:07:30. > :07:31.do mean knew nothing whatsoever about the circumstances. Now, that
:07:31. > :07:33.about the circumstances. Now, that about the circumstances. Now, that
:07:33. > :07:36.about the circumstances. Now, that is one thing. There is a question
:07:36. > :07:37.is one thing. There is a question is one thing. There is a question
:07:37. > :07:38.is one thing. There is a question to be asked about the timing and
:07:38. > :07:41.to be asked about the timing and to be asked about the timing and
:07:41. > :07:43.to be asked about the timing and the making public of what had been
:07:43. > :07:44.the making public of what had been the making public of what had been
:07:44. > :07:45.the making public of what had been put forward privately as a set of
:07:45. > :07:46.put forward privately as a set of put forward privately as a set of
:07:46. > :07:48.accusations, and that is, it seems accusations, and that is, it seems
:07:48. > :07:49.accusations, and that is, it seems to me, an interesting issue that'll
:07:49. > :07:50.to me, an interesting issue that'll to me, an interesting issue that'll
:07:50. > :07:51.to me, an interesting issue that'll be explored, I've no doubt in the
:07:51. > :07:52.be explored, I've no doubt in the be explored, I've no doubt in the
:07:52. > :07:53.course of time as further aspects course of time as further aspects
:07:53. > :07:54.course of time as further aspects of this emerge, one thing and
:07:54. > :07:55.of this emerge, one thing and of this emerge, one thing and
:07:55. > :07:56.another. The initial remark was to another. The initial remark was to
:07:56. > :07:58.another. The initial remark was to the effect that people were
:07:58. > :08:00.the effect that people were offering commentaries, for example,
:08:00. > :08:02.offering commentaries, for example, offering commentaries, for example,
:08:02. > :08:03.offering commentaries, for example, about the scale of the impact of
:08:03. > :08:04.about the scale of the impact of about the scale of the impact of
:08:04. > :08:05.about the scale of the impact of this, what might be involved, so on,
:08:05. > :08:06.this, what might be involved, so on, who literally knew nothing
:08:06. > :08:07.who literally knew nothing who literally knew nothing
:08:07. > :08:08.whatsoever of the situation. whatsoever of the situation.
:08:08. > :08:09.whatsoever of the situation. when you say "who benefits", are
:08:09. > :08:11.when you say "who benefits", are when you say "who benefits", are
:08:11. > :08:13.when you say "who benefits", are you suggesting there was some - if
:08:13. > :08:14.you suggesting there was some - if you suggesting there was some - if
:08:14. > :08:14.not a conspiracy, at least not a conspiracy, at least
:08:15. > :08:16.not a conspiracy, at least something malignant going on here?
:08:16. > :08:17.something malignant going on here? something malignant going on here?
:08:18. > :08:18.something malignant going on here? something malignant going on here?
:08:18. > :08:19.Well, I was drawing in a way - this Well, I was drawing in a way - this
:08:19. > :08:20.Well, I was drawing in a way - this Well, I was drawing in a way - this
:08:20. > :08:21.is in the context of drawing a is in the context of drawing a
:08:21. > :08:22.is in the context of drawing a larger conclusion about the state
:08:22. > :08:23.larger conclusion about the state larger conclusion about the state
:08:23. > :08:24.larger conclusion about the state of the health, as it were, of the
:08:24. > :08:25.of the health, as it were, of the Catholic Church in Scotland,
:08:25. > :08:26.Catholic Church in Scotland, Catholic Church in Scotland,
:08:26. > :08:29.because it seems to me whichever because it seems to me whichever
:08:29. > :08:31.because it seems to me whichever way this matter is resolved, you
:08:31. > :08:32.way this matter is resolved, you way this matter is resolved, you
:08:32. > :08:33.have a problem. If the accusations have a problem. If the accusations
:08:33. > :08:37.have a problem. If the accusations are substantiated, then clearly you
:08:37. > :08:40.are substantiated, then clearly you are substantiated, then clearly you
:08:40. > :08:41.have the problem of moral have the problem of moral
:08:41. > :08:44.have the problem of moral malpractice and the - there are
:08:44. > :08:45.malpractice and the - there are malpractice and the - there are
:08:45. > :08:46.questions involved but anyway, more questions involved but anyway, more
:08:46. > :08:47.questions involved but anyway, more and more malpractice on behalf of
:08:47. > :08:48.and more malpractice on behalf of and more malpractice on behalf of
:08:48. > :08:50.an Archbishop. If they were found an Archbishop. If they were found
:08:50. > :08:50.an Archbishop. If they were found an Archbishop. If they were found
:08:50. > :08:51.to be without subs stance, then you to be without subs stance, then you
:08:51. > :08:52.to be without subs stance, then you have the situation of priests
:08:52. > :08:53.have the situation of priests have the situation of priests
:08:53. > :08:54.within the church willing to put within the church willing to put
:08:54. > :08:58.within the church willing to put together, to work together, to
:08:58. > :08:59.together, to work together, to together, to work together, to
:08:59. > :09:01.submit a set of acusation which submit a set of acusation which
:09:01. > :09:02.submit a set of acusation which were false so whichever way this
:09:02. > :09:03.were false so whichever way this were false so whichever way this
:09:03. > :09:04.goes, it doesn't speak to the goes, it doesn't speak to the
:09:04. > :09:05.goes, it doesn't speak to the health of the Catholic Church in
:09:05. > :09:06.health of the Catholic Church in health of the Catholic Church in
:09:06. > :09:07.health of the Catholic Church in Scotland. What do you make of that?
:09:07. > :09:09.Scotland. What do you make of that? Scotland. What do you make of that?
:09:09. > :09:11.Whatever this is, it ain't good, Whatever this is, it ain't good,
:09:11. > :09:12.basically. Well, it's perfectly basically. Well, it's perfectly
:09:12. > :09:13.basically. Well, it's perfectly true that whatever happens, as he
:09:13. > :09:17.true that whatever happens, as he true that whatever happens, as he
:09:17. > :09:18.says, that the outcome of that says, that the outcome of that
:09:18. > :09:21.says, that the outcome of that isn't good. But the ordinary
:09:21. > :09:22.isn't good. But the ordinary isn't good. But the ordinary
:09:22. > :09:23.isn't good. But the ordinary Catholic in the pew - there are
:09:23. > :09:26.Catholic in the pew - there are christenings going on, holy
:09:26. > :09:27.christenings going on, holy christenings going on, holy
:09:27. > :09:28.confirmation, people are dying. The confirmation, people are dying. The
:09:28. > :09:29.confirmation, people are dying. The ordinary, pastoral work of the
:09:29. > :09:30.ordinary, pastoral work of the ordinary, pastoral work of the
:09:30. > :09:31.ordinary, pastoral work of the church just going on. There are two
:09:31. > :09:33.church just going on. There are two different things happening here.
:09:33. > :09:34.different things happening here. different things happening here.
:09:34. > :09:35.There is some sort of bureaucratic There is some sort of bureaucratic
:09:35. > :09:41.There is some sort of bureaucratic There is some sort of bureaucratic
:09:41. > :09:42.crisis. I don't even think it's a It's more than that. If the
:09:42. > :09:44.It's more than that. If the It's more than that. If the
:09:44. > :09:46.allegations are true, it's speck allegations are true, it's speck
:09:46. > :09:48.tartacular hypocrisy. Indeed. If tartacular hypocrisy. Indeed. If
:09:48. > :09:50.tartacular hypocrisy. Indeed. If the allegations were true, it would
:09:50. > :09:50.the allegations were true, it would the allegations were true, it would
:09:50. > :09:51.be spectacular hypocrisy, and at be spectacular hypocrisy, and at
:09:51. > :09:52.be spectacular hypocrisy, and at the moment this is between the
:09:52. > :09:53.the moment this is between the the moment this is between the
:09:53. > :09:55.the moment this is between the priests and the Archbishop - or the
:09:55. > :09:56.priests and the Archbishop - or the priests and the Archbishop - or the
:09:56. > :09:57.Archbishop now resigned, but for Archbishop now resigned, but for
:09:57. > :09:58.Archbishop now resigned, but for the ordinary Catholic in the pew,
:09:58. > :09:59.the ordinary Catholic in the pew, the ordinary Catholic in the pew,
:09:59. > :10:00.the pastoral work of the church the pastoral work of the church
:10:00. > :10:01.the pastoral work of the church the pastoral work of the church
:10:01. > :10:02.just goes on, so I think when just goes on, so I think when
:10:02. > :10:03.just goes on, so I think when people talk about a crisis, a
:10:03. > :10:04.people talk about a crisis, a people talk about a crisis, a
:10:04. > :10:05.crisis to me is something where crisis to me is something where
:10:05. > :10:06.crisis to me is something where crisis to me is something where
:10:06. > :10:07.people run around and say, we don't people run around and say, we don't
:10:07. > :10:09.people run around and say, we don't know what to do. Everybody knows
:10:09. > :10:10.know what to do. Everybody knows know what to do. Everybody knows
:10:10. > :10:11.what they're doing in this case. what they're doing in this case.
:10:11. > :10:12.what they're doing in this case. The allegations are going to be
:10:12. > :10:13.The allegations are going to be The allegations are going to be
:10:14. > :10:15.looked at, and the ordinary looked at, and the ordinary
:10:15. > :10:16.looked at, and the ordinary Catholic gets on. It's lent. Easter
:10:16. > :10:18.Catholic gets on. It's lent. Easter Catholic gets on. It's lent. Easter
:10:18. > :10:19.Catholic gets on. It's lent. Easter is coming up. We have a papal
:10:19. > :10:20.is coming up. We have a papal is coming up. We have a papal
:10:20. > :10:21.is coming up. We have a papal conclave. That's just how it is. I
:10:21. > :10:21.conclave. That's just how it is. I conclave. That's just how it is. I
:10:22. > :10:22.conclave. That's just how it is. I think there is a tendency to kind
:10:22. > :10:23.think there is a tendency to kind think there is a tendency to kind
:10:23. > :10:24.think there is a tendency to kind of ratchet up the emotion and the
:10:24. > :10:25.of ratchet up the emotion and the of ratchet up the emotion and the
:10:25. > :10:27.of ratchet up the emotion and the sort of - the idea of chaos, but
:10:27. > :10:28.sort of - the idea of chaos, but sort of - the idea of chaos, but
:10:28. > :10:30.sort of - the idea of chaos, but there isn't any chaos. There is a
:10:30. > :10:31.there isn't any chaos. There is a there isn't any chaos. There is a
:10:31. > :10:32.perfectly good procedure going on perfectly good procedure going on
:10:32. > :10:33.perfectly good procedure going on perfectly good procedure going on
:10:33. > :10:34.now. It's not very nice. It's very now. It's not very nice. It's very
:10:34. > :10:35.now. It's not very nice. It's very public. It doesn't do the church
:10:35. > :10:37.public. It doesn't do the church public. It doesn't do the church
:10:37. > :10:38.public. It doesn't do the church any good, but it's not a crisis.
:10:38. > :10:40.any good, but it's not a crisis. any good, but it's not a crisis.
:10:40. > :10:43.The very least you could say, The very least you could say,
:10:43. > :10:44.The very least you could say, surely is taken together with the
:10:44. > :10:45.surely is taken together with the surely is taken together with the
:10:45. > :10:46.long list of incidents in other long list of incidents in other
:10:46. > :10:48.long list of incidents in other countries we have had with child
:10:48. > :10:49.countries we have had with child countries we have had with child
:10:50. > :10:52.abuse and America and Ireland, all abuse and America and Ireland, all
:10:52. > :10:52.abuse and America and Ireland, all the various things this certainly
:10:52. > :10:53.the various things this certainly the various things this certainly
:10:53. > :10:54.doesn't do the image of the doesn't do the image of the
:10:54. > :10:56.doesn't do the image of the Catholic Church any good.
:10:56. > :10:57.Catholic Church any good. Catholic Church any good.
:10:57. > :10:58.wouldn't take it together with wouldn't take it together with
:10:58. > :10:59.wouldn't take it together with those other things. I'm sorry. I'm
:10:59. > :11:00.those other things. I'm sorry. I'm those other things. I'm sorry. I'm
:11:00. > :11:01.those other things. I'm sorry. I'm not saying it's the same issue. I
:11:01. > :11:02.not saying it's the same issue. I not saying it's the same issue. I
:11:02. > :11:05.not saying it's the same issue. I am saying there have been a whole
:11:05. > :11:07.am saying there have been a whole am saying there have been a whole
:11:07. > :11:08.series of issues which have either series of issues which have either
:11:08. > :11:09.series of issues which have either got to actual criminal behaviours,
:11:09. > :11:11.got to actual criminal behaviours, got to actual criminal behaviours,
:11:11. > :11:12.got to actual criminal behaviours, in some of them, in this case,
:11:12. > :11:15.in some of them, in this case, in some of them, in this case,
:11:15. > :11:17.possibly gets you to hypocrisy or possibly gets you to hypocrisy or
:11:17. > :11:19.possibly gets you to hypocrisy or the things that the professor
:11:19. > :11:20.the things that the professor the things that the professor
:11:20. > :11:21.outlined. Image-wise, it's not good. outlined. Image-wise, it's not good.
:11:21. > :11:22.outlined. Image-wise, it's not good. outlined. Image-wise, it's not good.
:11:22. > :11:23.Of course it's not. In that sense Of course it's not. In that sense
:11:23. > :11:25.Of course it's not. In that sense it's damaging. I would reject all
:11:25. > :11:25.it's damaging. I would reject all it's damaging. I would reject all
:11:26. > :11:27.it's damaging. I would reject all talk of crisis as just making a
:11:27. > :11:28.talk of crisis as just making a talk of crisis as just making a
:11:28. > :11:30.talk of crisis as just making a drama into a crisis. This is a
:11:30. > :11:32.drama into a crisis. This is a drama into a crisis. This is a
:11:32. > :11:33.very... You wouldn't agree with very... You wouldn't agree with
:11:33. > :11:33.very... You wouldn't agree with Tom? I disagree totally. I think
:11:33. > :11:34.Tom? I disagree totally. I think Tom? I disagree totally. I think
:11:34. > :11:36.his analysis just doesn't stand up. his analysis just doesn't stand up.
:11:36. > :11:37.his analysis just doesn't stand up. his analysis just doesn't stand up.
:11:37. > :11:39.I mean, he was talking there in the I mean, he was talking there in the
:11:39. > :11:40.I mean, he was talking there in the film about positive aspects coming
:11:40. > :11:43.film about positive aspects coming film about positive aspects coming
:11:43. > :11:44.film about positive aspects coming film about positive aspects coming
:11:44. > :11:46.out of a crisis as he sees it. The out of a crisis as he sees it. The
:11:46. > :11:47.out of a crisis as he sees it. The Viemar Republic springs to mind.
:11:47. > :11:51.Viemar Republic springs to mind. Viemar Republic springs to mind.
:11:51. > :11:52.Nothing came out of the chaos Nothing came out of the chaos
:11:52. > :11:54.Nothing came out of the chaos Nothing came out of the chaos
:11:54. > :11:56.caused by that. I don't see this as caused by that. I don't see this as
:11:56. > :11:57.caused by that. I don't see this as caused by that. I don't see this as
:11:57. > :11:59.a crisis in any way doctrinally or a crisis in any way doctrinally or
:11:59. > :12:02.doing mattically. It hasn't doing mattically. It hasn't
:12:02. > :12:04.affected what Catholics are affected what Catholics are
:12:04. > :12:05.affected what Catholics are expected to believe. If the
:12:05. > :12:06.expected to believe. If the expected to believe. If the
:12:06. > :12:07.expected to believe. If the Catholic faith is put into - by a
:12:07. > :12:08.Catholic faith is put into - by a Catholic faith is put into - by a
:12:08. > :12:10.scandal like this, they really scandal like this, they really
:12:10. > :12:11.scandal like this, they really don't have the right approach to
:12:11. > :12:12.don't have the right approach to don't have the right approach to
:12:12. > :12:14.the Catholic Church. What they the Catholic Church. What they
:12:14. > :12:15.the Catholic Church. What they should do - I think Brian
:12:15. > :12:16.should do - I think Brian should do - I think Brian
:12:16. > :12:17.Fitzpatrick was alluding to this, Fitzpatrick was alluding to this,
:12:17. > :12:18.Fitzpatrick was alluding to this, Fitzpatrick was alluding to this,
:12:18. > :12:19.if they see this hypocrisy, if it's if they see this hypocrisy, if it's
:12:19. > :12:20.if they see this hypocrisy, if it's if they see this hypocrisy, if it's
:12:20. > :12:21.proved to be that as major problem, proved to be that as major problem,
:12:21. > :12:21.proved to be that as major problem, proved to be that as major problem,
:12:21. > :12:22.then they really do have to find then they really do have to find
:12:22. > :12:24.then they really do have to find another church. The church is not
:12:24. > :12:26.another church. The church is not another church. The church is not
:12:26. > :12:27.another church. The church is not going to change to suit them.
:12:27. > :12:28.going to change to suit them. going to change to suit them.
:12:28. > :12:30.read you, John, something you said read you, John, something you said
:12:30. > :12:31.read you, John, something you said in this article? It's just a
:12:31. > :12:34.in this article? It's just a in this article? It's just a
:12:34. > :12:34.sentence - a couple of sentences. sentence - a couple of sentences.
:12:34. > :12:35.sentence - a couple of sentences. It says, "Homosexuality per se
:12:35. > :12:36.It says, "Homosexuality per se It says, "Homosexuality per se
:12:36. > :12:37.isn't the problem. It's the isn't the problem. It's the
:12:37. > :12:40.isn't the problem. It's the existence of large numbers of gays
:12:40. > :12:42.existence of large numbers of gays existence of large numbers of gays
:12:42. > :12:43.in an insthution regards this in an insthution regards this
:12:43. > :12:44.condition as intrinsically condition as intrinsically
:12:44. > :12:45.disordered and pretends its disordered and pretends its
:12:45. > :12:47.disordered and pretends its priesthood is not subject to that
:12:47. > :12:48.priesthood is not subject to that priesthood is not subject to that
:12:48. > :12:49.very condition." I suppose two very condition." I suppose two
:12:49. > :12:50.very condition." I suppose two very condition." I suppose two
:12:50. > :12:52.questions on that - one, what are questions on that - one, what are
:12:52. > :12:52.questions on that - one, what are you getting at? Secondly, you seem
:12:52. > :12:54.you getting at? Secondly, you seem you getting at? Secondly, you seem
:12:54. > :12:55.you getting at? Secondly, you seem you getting at? Secondly, you seem
:12:55. > :12:56.to be getting at what you see as a to be getting at what you see as a
:12:56. > :12:57.to be getting at what you see as a structural problem in the church. I
:12:57. > :12:57.structural problem in the church. I structural problem in the church. I
:12:57. > :12:58.don't think you're a particularly don't think you're a particularly
:12:58. > :13:01.don't think you're a particularly just referring to Scotland here.
:13:01. > :13:01.just referring to Scotland here. just referring to Scotland here.
:13:01. > :13:02.Well, no, I wasn't particularly Well, no, I wasn't particularly
:13:02. > :13:08.referring - or exclusively referring - or exclusively
:13:08. > :13:09.What I was getting at is what I What I was getting at is what I
:13:09. > :13:10.What I was getting at is what I What I was getting at is what I
:13:10. > :13:11.said. What I was saying is there is said. What I was saying is there is
:13:11. > :13:12.said. What I was saying is there is said. What I was saying is there is
:13:12. > :13:12.an aspect to the state of the an aspect to the state of the
:13:13. > :13:13.an aspect to the state of the an aspect to the state of the
:13:13. > :13:14.church and the clergy and so on church and the clergy and so on
:13:14. > :13:16.church and the clergy and so on which is well known. People are
:13:16. > :13:18.which is well known. People are which is well known. People are
:13:18. > :13:19.uncomfortable to hear it discussed, uncomfortable to hear it discussed,
:13:19. > :13:20.uncomfortable to hear it discussed, uncomfortable to hear it discussed,
:13:20. > :13:21.but for reasons which I give an but for reasons which I give an
:13:21. > :13:23.but for reasons which I give an but for reasons which I give an
:13:23. > :13:24.account of in terms - in that account of in terms - in that
:13:24. > :13:26.account of in terms - in that article and so on, seminaries have
:13:26. > :13:27.article and so on, seminaries have article and so on, seminaries have
:13:27. > :13:29.often been places in which people often been places in which people
:13:29. > :13:30.often been places in which people could escape to, as it were,
:13:30. > :13:31.could escape to, as it were, without having questions asked
:13:31. > :13:32.without having questions asked without having questions asked
:13:32. > :13:33.without having questions asked within the home and as they were
:13:34. > :13:34.within the home and as they were within the home and as they were
:13:34. > :13:36.growing up and within their growing up and within their
:13:36. > :13:37.growing up and within their communities about whether they have
:13:38. > :13:38.communities about whether they have girlfriends, whether they have
:13:38. > :13:39.girlfriends, whether they have girlfriends, whether they have
:13:39. > :13:41.fiancees, whether they're going to fiancees, whether they're going to
:13:41. > :13:42.fiancees, whether they're going to fiancees, whether they're going to
:13:42. > :13:43.get married and so on... I get that get married and so on... I get that
:13:43. > :13:44.get married and so on... I get that get married and so on... I get that
:13:44. > :13:45.point. See, a lot of people who are point. See, a lot of people who are
:13:45. > :13:47.point. See, a lot of people who are point. See, a lot of people who are
:13:47. > :13:48.not Catholics will watch in and say, not Catholics will watch in and say,
:13:48. > :13:50.not Catholics will watch in and say, not Catholics will watch in and say,
:13:50. > :13:52.look, what is it these people are look, what is it these people are
:13:52. > :13:53.look, what is it these people are getting so worked up about? They
:13:53. > :13:53.getting so worked up about? They getting so worked up about? They
:13:53. > :13:54.have the accusation these people have the accusation these people
:13:54. > :13:56.have the accusation these people have the accusation these people
:13:56. > :13:58.are - whether it's a clique or just are - whether it's a clique or just
:13:58. > :13:59.are - whether it's a clique or just are - whether it's a clique or just
:13:59. > :14:00.a group of openly gay clergy within a group of openly gay clergy within
:14:00. > :14:01.a group of openly gay clergy within a group of openly gay clergy within
:14:01. > :14:02.the curia, that was one of the the curia, that was one of the
:14:02. > :14:02.the curia, that was one of the the curia, that was one of the
:14:02. > :14:05.things that it has been accused of, things that it has been accused of,
:14:05. > :14:08.things that it has been accused of, but on the other hand, this
:14:08. > :14:08.but on the other hand, this but on the other hand, this
:14:08. > :14:10.organisation takes a famously hard organisation takes a famously hard
:14:10. > :14:13.organisation takes a famously hard line about homosexuality, so - I
:14:13. > :14:14.line about homosexuality, so - I line about homosexuality, so - I
:14:14. > :14:15.line about homosexuality, so - I mean, how would you explain that to
:14:15. > :14:16.mean, how would you explain that to mean, how would you explain that to
:14:16. > :14:17.outsiders? Sorry. Yeah. I don't outsiders? Sorry. Yeah. I don't
:14:17. > :14:19.outsiders? Sorry. Yeah. I don't think anybody's made a situation
:14:19. > :14:20.think anybody's made a situation think anybody's made a situation
:14:20. > :14:21.think anybody's made a situation there is a group of openly gay
:14:21. > :14:22.there is a group of openly gay there is a group of openly gay
:14:22. > :14:22.there is a group of openly gay clergy in the curia. The question -
:14:22. > :14:24.clergy in the curia. The question - clergy in the curia. The question -
:14:24. > :14:25.clergy in the curia. The question - just so we can focus and make it
:14:25. > :14:26.just so we can focus and make it just so we can focus and make it
:14:26. > :14:27.clear - the question about clear - the question about
:14:27. > :14:28.clear - the question about homosexuality was simply the point
:14:28. > :14:29.homosexuality was simply the point homosexuality was simply the point
:14:29. > :14:30.homosexuality was simply the point homosexuality was simply the point
:14:30. > :14:31.that I was making - was this, it is, that I was making - was this, it is,
:14:31. > :14:33.that I was making - was this, it is, that I was making - was this, it is,
:14:33. > :14:33.I think, a fact that there is a I think, a fact that there is a
:14:33. > :14:35.I think, a fact that there is a very significant percentage of the
:14:35. > :14:36.very significant percentage of the very significant percentage of the
:14:36. > :14:38.very significant percentage of the clergy - let us say under the age
:14:38. > :14:39.clergy - let us say under the age clergy - let us say under the age
:14:39. > :14:40.clergy - let us say under the age clergy - let us say under the age
:14:40. > :14:42.of 50 or 40, perhaps, 45 - I don't of 50 or 40, perhaps, 45 - I don't
:14:42. > :14:44.of 50 or 40, perhaps, 45 - I don't know what exactly that figure would
:14:44. > :14:45.know what exactly that figure would know what exactly that figure would
:14:45. > :14:46.be - that are homosexual by be - that are homosexual by
:14:46. > :14:47.be - that are homosexual by orientation. Now, that in itself,
:14:47. > :14:48.orientation. Now, that in itself, orientation. Now, that in itself,
:14:49. > :14:49.orientation. Now, that in itself, orientation. Now, that in itself,
:14:49. > :14:50.as I say, is not a problem or need as I say, is not a problem or need
:14:50. > :14:51.as I say, is not a problem or need as I say, is not a problem or need
:14:51. > :14:52.not be a problem. This is not a not be a problem. This is not a
:14:52. > :14:53.not be a problem. This is not a not be a problem. This is not a
:14:53. > :14:55.question as to whether or not it is question as to whether or not it is
:14:55. > :14:56.question as to whether or not it is question as to whether or not it is
:14:56. > :14:57.possible to be homosexual and to be possible to be homosexual and to be
:14:57. > :14:58.possible to be homosexual and to be a Catholic priest, legitimately so.
:14:58. > :15:00.a Catholic priest, legitimately so. a Catholic priest, legitimately so.
:15:00. > :15:02.The answer is obviously yes. The The answer is obviously yes. The
:15:03. > :15:03.The answer is obviously yes. The problem would be if there's
:15:04. > :15:05.problem would be if there's problem would be if there's
:15:05. > :15:06.problem would be if there's subculture - not openly gay, but a
:15:06. > :15:08.subculture - not openly gay, but a subculture - not openly gay, but a
:15:08. > :15:10.subculture of priests who are subculture of priests who are
:15:10. > :15:11.subculture of priests who are simply not honouring their vows of
:15:11. > :15:12.simply not honouring their vows of simply not honouring their vows of
:15:12. > :15:13.simply not honouring their vows of celibacy, and that is as grave in
:15:13. > :15:15.celibacy, and that is as grave in celibacy, and that is as grave in
:15:15. > :15:16.the case of heterosexual priests the case of heterosexual priests
:15:16. > :15:17.the case of heterosexual priests the case of heterosexual priests
:15:17. > :15:18.who are not honouring their vow of who are not honouring their vow of
:15:19. > :15:19.who are not honouring their vow of who are not honouring their vow of
:15:19. > :15:20.celibacy, so one of my proposals - celibacy, so one of my proposals -
:15:20. > :15:22.celibacy, so one of my proposals - celibacy, so one of my proposals -
:15:22. > :15:23.a set of proposal, as you know - a set of proposal, as you know -
:15:23. > :15:24.a set of proposal, as you know - a set of proposal, as you know -
:15:24. > :15:26.but one of my proposals is clergy but one of my proposals is clergy
:15:26. > :15:28.but one of my proposals is clergy should be now required in private
:15:28. > :15:29.should be now required in private should be now required in private
:15:29. > :15:30.to solemnly renew their vows of to solemnly renew their vows of
:15:30. > :15:31.to solemnly renew their vows of to solemnly renew their vows of
:15:31. > :15:32.celibacy and that any member of the celibacy and that any member of the
:15:32. > :15:33.celibacy and that any member of the celibacy and that any member of the
:15:33. > :15:34.clergy who feels unable to do that clergy who feels unable to do that
:15:34. > :15:35.clergy who feels unable to do that clergy who feels unable to do that
:15:35. > :15:36.should be reasoned to the lay state, should be reasoned to the lay state,
:15:36. > :15:37.should be reasoned to the lay state, that the church should facility...
:15:37. > :15:38.that the church should facility... that the church should facility...
:15:38. > :15:40.Running out of time is that Running out of time is that
:15:40. > :15:41.Running out of time is that helpful? Priests are supposed to
:15:41. > :15:42.helpful? Priests are supposed to helpful? Priests are supposed to
:15:42. > :15:52.take vows when they're ordained, take vows when they're ordained,
:15:52. > :15:57.
:15:57. > :15:59.The whole question of celibacy, The whole question of celibacy,
:15:59. > :16:00.The whole question of celibacy, The whole question of celibacy,
:16:00. > :16:02.that is something that could be re- that is something that could be re-
:16:02. > :16:04.that is something that could be re- examined. That has not fundamental.
:16:04. > :16:05.examined. That has not fundamental. examined. That has not fundamental.
:16:05. > :16:09.examined. That has not fundamental. I see a major problem as management.
:16:09. > :16:10.I see a major problem as management. I see a major problem as management.
:16:10. > :16:11.I see a major problem as management. We lack the talent. I am curious
:16:11. > :16:12.We lack the talent. I am curious We lack the talent. I am curious
:16:12. > :16:13.because you've got quite liberal because you've got quite liberal
:16:13. > :16:15.because you've got quite liberal views on things like same-sex
:16:15. > :16:17.views on things like same-sex views on things like same-sex
:16:17. > :16:21.views on things like same-sex marriage, but how do you feel as a
:16:21. > :16:22.marriage, but how do you feel as a marriage, but how do you feel as a
:16:22. > :16:23.lay Catholic when Michael Sayers lay Catholic when Michael Sayers
:16:23. > :16:25.lay Catholic when Michael Sayers lay Catholic when Michael Sayers
:16:25. > :16:27.dog isn't going to change. That is dog isn't going to change. That is
:16:27. > :16:31.dog isn't going to change. That is dog isn't going to change. That is
:16:31. > :16:32.not what is going to happen. -- not what is going to happen. --
:16:32. > :16:34.dogma. Cardinal Manning talked dogma. Cardinal Manning talked
:16:34. > :16:35.dogma. Cardinal Manning talked about inflexibility. That is what
:16:35. > :16:37.about inflexibility. That is what about inflexibility. That is what
:16:37. > :16:38.Michael likes. I think we should Michael likes. I think we should
:16:38. > :16:41.Michael likes. I think we should discern the Times would puts us
:16:41. > :16:43.discern the Times would puts us discern the Times would puts us
:16:43. > :16:45.discern the Times would puts us into two camps. I say... These are
:16:45. > :16:47.into two camps. I say... These are into two camps. I say... These are
:16:47. > :16:48.promises, not fowls. This is not promises, not fowls. This is not
:16:48. > :16:49.promises, not fowls. This is not promises, not fowls. This is not
:16:49. > :16:50.dogma. It could be changed. Lots of dogma. It could be changed. Lots of
:16:50. > :16:51.dogma. It could be changed. Lots of things could be changed which
:16:51. > :16:52.things could be changed which things could be changed which
:16:52. > :16:54.people don't think can be changed people don't think can be changed
:16:54. > :16:55.people don't think can be changed because they like tradition. I like
:16:55. > :16:56.because they like tradition. I like because they like tradition. I like
:16:56. > :16:57.tradition as much as the next tradition as much as the next
:16:57. > :16:58.tradition as much as the next tradition as much as the next
:16:58. > :17:00.person but when it starts to damage person but when it starts to damage
:17:00. > :17:01.person but when it starts to damage person but when it starts to damage
:17:01. > :17:03.the church, I start to wonder... I the church, I start to wonder... I
:17:03. > :17:04.understand the difference between understand the difference between
:17:04. > :17:05.understand the difference between dogma and tradition, but I don't
:17:05. > :17:06.dogma and tradition, but I don't dogma and tradition, but I don't
:17:06. > :17:08.know we have to stick absolutely know we have to stick absolutely
:17:08. > :17:09.know we have to stick absolutely know we have to stick absolutely
:17:09. > :17:11.but -- to the letter of tradition but -- to the letter of tradition
:17:11. > :17:13.but -- to the letter of tradition when the beauty of stability
:17:13. > :17:16.when the beauty of stability when the beauty of stability
:17:16. > :17:17.becomes ugly and the church starts becomes ugly and the church starts
:17:17. > :17:23.becomes ugly and the church starts to implode. It doesn't apply to
:17:23. > :17:27.to implode. It doesn't apply to whom sexuality. Cardinal Keith
:17:27. > :17:33.whom sexuality. Cardinal Keith O'Brien himself implied priests
:17:33. > :17:34.O'Brien himself implied priests O'Brien himself implied priests
:17:34. > :17:35.could married. The point is could married. The point is
:17:35. > :17:35.could married. The point is could married. The point is
:17:35. > :17:36.homosexuality is a sin. And if they homosexuality is a sin. And if they
:17:36. > :17:37.homosexuality is a sin. And if they homosexuality is a sin. And if they
:17:37. > :17:38.are going to run a gone that and are going to run a gone that and
:17:38. > :17:39.are going to run a gone that and are going to run a gone that and
:17:39. > :17:40.are going to run a gone that and say it is no longer a sin, it is
:17:40. > :17:41.say it is no longer a sin, it is say it is no longer a sin, it is
:17:41. > :17:43.not going to happen. The way not going to happen. The way
:17:43. > :17:44.not going to happen. The way Catholics in Scotland deal with
:17:44. > :17:46.Catholics in Scotland deal with Catholics in Scotland deal with
:17:46. > :17:48.homosexuals is a different thing. homosexuals is a different thing.
:17:48. > :17:50.homosexuals is a different thing. The tone has been too strident,
:17:50. > :17:51.The tone has been too strident, The tone has been too strident,
:17:51. > :17:52.possibly wrong. To expect the possibly wrong. To expect the
:17:52. > :17:52.possibly wrong. To expect the possibly wrong. To expect the
:17:52. > :17:53.church to say they will knock that church to say they will knock that
:17:53. > :17:54.church to say they will knock that church to say they will knock that
:17:54. > :17:56.off the list of sins, it's not off the list of sins, it's not
:17:56. > :17:57.off the list of sins, it's not going to happen. So, people will
:17:57. > :17:59.going to happen. So, people will going to happen. So, people will
:17:59. > :18:00.depart because if they don't think it is a
:18:00. > :18:01.depart because if they don't think depart because if they don't think
:18:01. > :18:01.it is a sin, it is difficult to it is a sin, it is difficult to
:18:01. > :18:04.it is a sin, it is difficult to it is a sin, it is difficult to
:18:04. > :18:07.remain in a church which bangs on remain in a church which bangs on
:18:07. > :18:08.remain in a church which bangs on about it. Using such language that
:18:08. > :18:09.about it. Using such language that about it. Using such language that
:18:09. > :18:10.about it. Using such language that is where the division will come.
:18:10. > :18:13.is where the division will come. is where the division will come.
:18:13. > :18:14.is where the division will come. have run out of time. John, as you
:18:14. > :18:17.have run out of time. John, as you have run out of time. John, as you
:18:17. > :18:18.have run out of time. John, as you are an adviser to the Vatican, do
:18:18. > :18:26.are an adviser to the Vatican, do are an adviser to the Vatican, do
:18:26. > :18:27.you think there will be any I hope that there will be some
:18:27. > :18:28.I hope that there will be some I hope that there will be some
:18:28. > :18:30.I hope that there will be some change in the way the church orders
:18:30. > :18:31.change in the way the church orders change in the way the church orders
:18:31. > :18:33.itself but not in regard to itself but not in regard to
:18:33. > :18:34.itself but not in regard to question of faith and morals.
:18:34. > :18:39.question of faith and morals. question of faith and morals.
:18:39. > :18:40.Now, Scotland's success or Now, Scotland's success or
:18:40. > :18:41.Now, Scotland's success or otherwise as a centre for the
:18:41. > :18:42.otherwise as a centre for the otherwise as a centre for the
:18:42. > :18:44.creative industries is part of the creative industries is part of the
:18:44. > :18:44.creative industries is part of the creative industries is part of the
:18:44. > :18:45.great debate these days. As far as great debate these days. As far as
:18:45. > :18:46.great debate these days. As far as television is concerned, much has
:18:46. > :18:47.television is concerned, much has television is concerned, much has
:18:47. > :18:48.been made of Denmark's recent been made of Denmark's recent
:18:48. > :18:49.phenomenal record for producing phenomenal record for producing
:18:49. > :18:50.phenomenal record for producing exportable TV, even if it needs
:18:50. > :18:51.exportable TV, even if it needs exportable TV, even if it needs
:18:51. > :18:52.subtitles in this and many other subtitles in this and many other
:18:52. > :18:52.subtitles in this and many other countries. The Killing, The Bridge,
:18:53. > :18:53.countries. The Killing, The Bridge, countries. The Killing, The Bridge,
:18:53. > :18:54.countries. The Killing, The Bridge, and now Borgen, a story of the
:18:54. > :18:55.and now Borgen, a story of the drama involved in political
:18:55. > :18:56.drama involved in political drama involved in political
:18:56. > :18:57.intrigue, are being watched across intrigue, are being watched across
:18:57. > :18:58.intrigue, are being watched across the world. Could we learn from
:18:58. > :18:59.the world. Could we learn from that? Our correspondent Raymond
:18:59. > :19:00.that? Our correspondent Raymond that? Our correspondent Raymond
:19:00. > :19:07.Buchanan has come back from Denmark Buchanan has come back from Denmark
:19:07. > :19:09.with this report. with this report.
:19:09. > :19:10.with this report. Politics is often dramatic. TV
:19:10. > :19:14.Politics is often dramatic. TV Politics is often dramatic. TV
:19:14. > :19:15.drama is rarely -- really about drama is rarely -- really about
:19:15. > :19:17.drama is rarely -- really about politics. So, Borgen has been an
:19:17. > :19:20.politics. So, Borgen has been an unlikely worldwide hit. 60
:19:20. > :19:22.unlikely worldwide hit. 60 unlikely worldwide hit. 60
:19:22. > :19:24.countries are following the public countries are following the public
:19:24. > :19:24.countries are following the public and private turmoil of a female
:19:24. > :19:27.and private turmoil of a female and private turmoil of a female
:19:27. > :19:28.Prime Minister and her supporting Prime Minister and her supporting
:19:29. > :19:34.Prime Minister and her supporting cast. Birgitte is played by this
:19:34. > :19:35.cast. Birgitte is played by this cast. Birgitte is played by this
:19:35. > :19:36.woman. Katrine Fonsmark is a woman. Katrine Fonsmark is a
:19:36. > :19:38.woman. Katrine Fonsmark is a journalist reporting on the Prime
:19:38. > :19:39.journalist reporting on the Prime journalist reporting on the Prime
:19:39. > :19:40.Minister's troubles. We have done Minister's troubles. We have done
:19:40. > :19:41.Minister's troubles. We have done crime shows before that have had
:19:41. > :19:42.crime shows before that have had crime shows before that have had
:19:42. > :19:44.crime shows before that have had some kind of life in Sweden and
:19:44. > :19:45.some kind of life in Sweden and some kind of life in Sweden and
:19:45. > :19:47.Norway and Germany but nobody Norway and Germany but nobody
:19:47. > :19:49.Norway and Germany but nobody thought this would go anywhere
:19:49. > :19:50.thought this would go anywhere thought this would go anywhere
:19:50. > :19:52.besides Denmark. So it is very besides Denmark. So it is very
:19:52. > :19:53.besides Denmark. So it is very strange, but we are pleased and
:19:53. > :19:54.strange, but we are pleased and strange, but we are pleased and
:19:54. > :19:55.strange, but we are pleased and proud that people have taken to it
:19:55. > :19:57.proud that people have taken to it proud that people have taken to it
:19:58. > :19:59.proud that people have taken to it like they have. The idea came from
:19:59. > :19:59.like they have. The idea came from like they have. The idea came from
:19:59. > :20:01.this man who believes politics can this man who believes politics can
:20:01. > :20:02.this man who believes politics can make good television but the story
:20:02. > :20:04.make good television but the story make good television but the story
:20:04. > :20:05.needs to be compelling. That's why needs to be compelling. That's why
:20:05. > :20:06.needs to be compelling. That's why needs to be compelling. That's why
:20:06. > :20:08.he made the most powerful person in he made the most powerful person in
:20:08. > :20:09.he made the most powerful person in he made the most powerful person in
:20:09. > :20:13.the country a woman. I thought it the country a woman. I thought it
:20:13. > :20:14.the country a woman. I thought it the country a woman. I thought it
:20:14. > :20:15.would be more painful to watch a would be more painful to watch a
:20:15. > :20:16.would be more painful to watch a would be more painful to watch a
:20:16. > :20:19.woman lose all that that makes her woman lose all that that makes her
:20:19. > :20:20.woman lose all that that makes her character round it and beautiful
:20:20. > :20:21.character round it and beautiful character round it and beautiful
:20:21. > :20:24.character round it and beautiful and her love life, her sex life,
:20:24. > :20:25.and her love life, her sex life, and her love life, her sex life,
:20:25. > :20:27.her children, family life. And she her children, family life. And she
:20:27. > :20:28.her children, family life. And she her children, family life. And she
:20:28. > :20:30.uses all of that. And I thought uses all of that. And I thought
:20:30. > :20:31.uses all of that. And I thought uses all of that. And I thought
:20:31. > :20:34.therefore we need a woman in that therefore we need a woman in that
:20:34. > :20:35.therefore we need a woman in that chair. Because it would be much
:20:36. > :20:37.chair. Because it would be much chair. Because it would be much
:20:37. > :20:38.chair. Because it would be much more painful to watch. It would be
:20:38. > :20:39.more painful to watch. It would be more painful to watch. It would be
:20:39. > :20:41.a more moving experience. Do you a more moving experience. Do you
:20:41. > :20:43.a more moving experience. Do you think that is the case for
:20:43. > :20:46.think that is the case for politicians in real life?
:20:46. > :20:48.politicians in real life? politicians in real life?
:20:48. > :20:53.Definitely. And I think not only Definitely. And I think not only
:20:53. > :20:54.Definitely. And I think not only for female politicians, but also...
:20:54. > :20:58.for female politicians, but also... for female politicians, but also...
:20:58. > :20:59.Women in big business, women with Women in big business, women with
:20:59. > :21:00.Women in big business, women with big careers. Because they put such
:21:00. > :21:02.big careers. Because they put such big careers. Because they put such
:21:02. > :21:05.a strain on themselves because they a strain on themselves because they
:21:05. > :21:06.a strain on themselves because they a strain on themselves because they
:21:06. > :21:07.want to be good at everything. They want to be good at everything. They
:21:07. > :21:10.want to be good at everything. They want to be multi-dimensional and
:21:10. > :21:14.want to be multi-dimensional and want to be multi-dimensional and
:21:15. > :21:16.they want to be... God-like, multi- they want to be... God-like, multi-
:21:16. > :21:17.they want to be... God-like, multi- tasking beings. And I don't think
:21:17. > :21:21.tasking beings. And I don't think tasking beings. And I don't think
:21:21. > :21:24.men have ever been that ambitious. men have ever been that ambitious.
:21:24. > :21:26.men have ever been that ambitious. Borgen is the latest hit the
:21:26. > :21:32.Borgen is the latest hit the Denmark. Previous successes have
:21:32. > :21:32.Denmark. Previous successes have Denmark. Previous successes have
:21:32. > :21:35.been crime dramas. This was the been crime dramas. This was the
:21:35. > :21:36.been crime dramas. This was the prime minister's office in Borgen.
:21:36. > :21:36.prime minister's office in Borgen. prime minister's office in Borgen.
:21:37. > :21:38.This company is publicly funded This company is publicly funded
:21:38. > :21:41.This company is publicly funded This company is publicly funded
:21:41. > :21:42.which is why they were able to make which is why they were able to make
:21:42. > :21:45.Borgen. Would a commercial Borgen. Would a commercial
:21:45. > :21:46.Borgen. Would a commercial broadcaster made Borgen? No.Why
:21:46. > :21:48.broadcaster made Borgen? No.Why broadcaster made Borgen? No.Why
:21:48. > :21:51.broadcaster made Borgen? No.Why not? It is too risky for them.Why
:21:51. > :21:53.not? It is too risky for them.Why not? It is too risky for them.Why
:21:53. > :21:55.not? It is too risky for them.Why risky? You are always when you have
:21:55. > :21:56.risky? You are always when you have risky? You are always when you have
:21:56. > :21:57.risky? You are always when you have to commercial hat on, you will go
:21:57. > :21:59.to commercial hat on, you will go to commercial hat on, you will go
:21:59. > :22:01.to commercial hat on, you will go for how the stuff works. Borgen was
:22:01. > :22:02.for how the stuff works. Borgen was for how the stuff works. Borgen was
:22:02. > :22:04.for how the stuff works. Borgen was a risky. It has even been suggested
:22:04. > :22:05.a risky. It has even been suggested a risky. It has even been suggested
:22:05. > :22:06.politicians have taken ideas from politicians have taken ideas from
:22:06. > :22:07.politicians have taken ideas from politicians have taken ideas from
:22:07. > :22:09.the show and turned them into their the show and turned them into their
:22:09. > :22:12.the show and turned them into their the show and turned them into their
:22:12. > :22:13.own policies. A case of real life own policies. A case of real life
:22:13. > :22:18.own policies. A case of real life imitating art. Actually, there was
:22:18. > :22:18.imitating art. Actually, there was imitating art. Actually, there was
:22:19. > :22:21.a Conservative politician, wanted a a Conservative politician, wanted a
:22:21. > :22:23.a Conservative politician, wanted a new law put through in Parliament
:22:23. > :22:24.new law put through in Parliament new law put through in Parliament
:22:24. > :22:26.because of something she sought in because of something she sought in
:22:26. > :22:29.because of something she sought in the series. Which is interesting!
:22:29. > :22:30.the series. Which is interesting! the series. Which is interesting!
:22:31. > :22:31.the series. Which is interesting! That was the first... That was a
:22:31. > :22:33.That was the first... That was a That was the first... That was a
:22:33. > :22:35.law of legalising prostitution in law of legalising prostitution in
:22:35. > :22:36.law of legalising prostitution in law of legalising prostitution in
:22:36. > :22:37.Denmark. It may be one of Denmark's Denmark. It may be one of Denmark's
:22:37. > :22:39.Denmark. It may be one of Denmark's most successful exports but a
:22:39. > :22:39.most successful exports but a most successful exports but a
:22:39. > :22:41.programme about its politics will programme about its politics will
:22:41. > :22:42.programme about its politics will programme about its politics will
:22:42. > :22:44.soon come to an end. The third and soon come to an end. The third and
:22:44. > :22:45.soon come to an end. The third and final series of Borgen will be
:22:46. > :22:47.final series of Borgen will be final series of Borgen will be
:22:47. > :22:48.broadcast here later this month. broadcast here later this month.
:22:48. > :22:50.broadcast here later this month. broadcast here later this month.
:22:50. > :22:54.Time for a quick look at the front Time for a quick look at the front
:22:54. > :22:56.Time for a quick look at the front pages. The Scotsman. RBS targets
:22:56. > :22:57.pages. The Scotsman. RBS targets pages. The Scotsman. RBS targets
:22:57. > :23:07.next year to start sale of next year to start sale of
:23:07. > :23:12.
:23:12. > :23:13.taxpayers' bank shares. The It is about the soldier, Manning.
:23:13. > :23:14.It is about the soldier, Manning. It is about the soldier, Manning.