04/03/2013

:00:02. > :00:06.Good evening and welcome to an Good evening and welcome to an

:00:06. > :00:07.extended edition of Newsnight extended edition of Newsnight

:00:07. > :00:08.extended edition of Newsnight Scotland. The Catholic Church is

:00:08. > :00:09.Scotland. The Catholic Church is Scotland. The Catholic Church is

:00:09. > :00:16.still reeling from the fall of still reeling from the fall of

:00:16. > :00:17.Cardinal Keith O'Brien. Tonight, Cardinal Keith O'Brien. Tonight,

:00:17. > :00:18.Cardinal Keith O'Brien. Tonight, our panel of experts has gathered

:00:18. > :00:19.our panel of experts has gathered our panel of experts has gathered

:00:19. > :00:20.our panel of experts has gathered here to debate how the church deals

:00:20. > :00:21.here to debate how the church deals here to debate how the church deals

:00:21. > :00:22.with accusations of rank hypocrisy. with accusations of rank hypocrisy.

:00:22. > :00:23.with accusations of rank hypocrisy. And its future role in Scottish

:00:23. > :00:24.And its future role in Scottish And its future role in Scottish

:00:24. > :00:34.life as its moral authority appears life as its moral authority appears

:00:34. > :00:35.

:00:35. > :00:36.Tonight at a Lenten Mass, the Tonight at a Lenten Mass, the

:00:36. > :00:36.Archbishop of Glasgow, Philip Archbishop of Glasgow, Philip

:00:36. > :00:37.Archbishop of Glasgow, Philip Tartaglia, said there is little

:00:37. > :00:38.Tartaglia, said there is little Tartaglia, said there is little

:00:38. > :00:39.doubt the moral authority of his doubt the moral authority of his

:00:39. > :00:44.doubt the moral authority of his church has been dealt a serious

:00:44. > :00:45.church has been dealt a serious blow. Cardinal O'Brien's admission

:00:45. > :00:45.blow. Cardinal O'Brien's admission blow. Cardinal O'Brien's admission

:00:45. > :00:46.that his sexual conduct fell below that his sexual conduct fell below

:00:46. > :00:47.that his sexual conduct fell below the standards expected was almost

:00:47. > :00:50.the standards expected was almost the standards expected was almost

:00:50. > :00:51.impossible to bear for some impossible to bear for some

:00:51. > :00:52.impossible to bear for some churchgoers. In a moment, we will

:00:52. > :00:53.churchgoers. In a moment, we will churchgoers. In a moment, we will

:00:53. > :00:54.hear from the Vatican, where hear from the Vatican, where

:00:54. > :00:55.hear from the Vatican, where cardinals will soon elect a new

:00:55. > :00:56.cardinals will soon elect a new cardinals will soon elect a new

:00:56. > :00:58.cardinals will soon elect a new pope. One man will not be there, of

:00:58. > :00:58.pope. One man will not be there, of pope. One man will not be there, of

:00:58. > :01:03.course. Steven Godden now charts course. Steven Godden now charts

:01:03. > :01:05.course. Steven Godden now charts the downfall of Scotland's cardinal.

:01:05. > :01:06.the downfall of Scotland's cardinal. the downfall of Scotland's cardinal.

:01:06. > :01:07.The Vatican, spiritual home of the The Vatican, spiritual home of the

:01:07. > :01:08.The Vatican, spiritual home of the Catholic Church, and a place where

:01:08. > :01:09.Catholic Church, and a place where Catholic Church, and a place where

:01:09. > :01:11.decisions are made that have that decisions are made that have that

:01:11. > :01:13.decisions are made that have that occasions across the goal. The

:01:13. > :01:15.occasions across the goal. The occasions across the goal. The

:01:15. > :01:16.cardinal's arriving here today and cardinal's arriving here today and

:01:16. > :01:17.cardinal's arriving here today and cardinal's arriving here today and

:01:17. > :01:19.on the cusp of the most important on the cusp of the most important

:01:19. > :01:20.responsibility faced, electing a responsibility faced, electing a

:01:20. > :01:22.responsibility faced, electing a new pope to replace Pope Benedict,

:01:22. > :01:22.new pope to replace Pope Benedict, new pope to replace Pope Benedict,

:01:22. > :01:25.the first man to resign the the first man to resign the

:01:25. > :01:26.the first man to resign the the first man to resign the

:01:26. > :01:28.position in more than 600 years. In position in more than 600 years. In

:01:28. > :01:29.normal circumstances, the attention normal circumstances, the attention

:01:29. > :01:30.normal circumstances, the attention of the Catholic community in

:01:30. > :01:32.of the Catholic community in of the Catholic community in

:01:32. > :01:33.Scotland would be firmly focused on Scotland would be firmly focused on

:01:33. > :01:35.Scotland would be firmly focused on Rome, but these are extraordinary

:01:35. > :01:36.Rome, but these are extraordinary Rome, but these are extraordinary

:01:36. > :01:37.times. On the minds of those times. On the minds of those

:01:38. > :01:39.times. On the minds of those attending Mass in Glasgow tonight,

:01:39. > :01:41.attending Mass in Glasgow tonight, attending Mass in Glasgow tonight,

:01:41. > :01:41.the sudden and unexpected fall from the sudden and unexpected fall from

:01:41. > :01:43.the sudden and unexpected fall from grace suffered by Cardinal Keith

:01:43. > :01:44.grace suffered by Cardinal Keith grace suffered by Cardinal Keith

:01:44. > :01:47.O'Brien, the man who, until O'Brien, the man who, until

:01:47. > :01:49.recently, was their leader. recently, was their leader.

:01:49. > :01:49.Yesterday's admission of sexual Yesterday's admission of sexual

:01:49. > :01:52.Yesterday's admission of sexual misconduct prompted a range of

:01:52. > :01:54.misconduct prompted a range of emotions, anger, disappointment and

:01:54. > :01:55.emotions, anger, disappointment and emotions, anger, disappointment and

:01:55. > :01:57.for many, confusion. Tonight, the for many, confusion. Tonight, the

:01:57. > :01:58.for many, confusion. Tonight, the man who succeeds him as Scotland's

:01:59. > :02:00.man who succeeds him as Scotland's man who succeeds him as Scotland's

:02:00. > :02:01.most senior Roman Catholic offered most senior Roman Catholic offered

:02:01. > :02:03.most senior Roman Catholic offered these words to his congregation and

:02:03. > :02:05.these words to his congregation and these words to his congregation and

:02:05. > :02:07.the wider world. The most stinging the wider world. The most stinging

:02:07. > :02:09.the wider world. The most stinging charge was has been levelled

:02:09. > :02:13.charge was has been levelled charge was has been levelled

:02:13. > :02:16.against us is the charge of against us is the charge of

:02:16. > :02:17.against us is the charge of hypocrisy. And for obvious reasons.

:02:17. > :02:20.hypocrisy. And for obvious reasons. hypocrisy. And for obvious reasons.

:02:20. > :02:23.hypocrisy. And for obvious reasons. I think there is little doubt that

:02:23. > :02:23.I think there is little doubt that I think there is little doubt that

:02:23. > :02:25.the credibility and moral authority the credibility and moral authority

:02:25. > :02:26.the credibility and moral authority of the Catholic Church in Scotland

:02:26. > :02:30.of the Catholic Church in Scotland of the Catholic Church in Scotland

:02:30. > :02:31.of the Catholic Church in Scotland has been dealt a serious blow. And

:02:31. > :02:32.has been dealt a serious blow. And has been dealt a serious blow. And

:02:32. > :02:35.has been dealt a serious blow. And we will need to come to terms with

:02:35. > :02:35.we will need to come to terms with we will need to come to terms with

:02:35. > :02:40.that. Foreign institution where the that. Foreign institution where the

:02:40. > :02:42.wheels turn slowly, Cardinal wheels turn slowly, Cardinal

:02:42. > :02:42.O'Brien's career unravelled at O'Brien's career unravelled at

:02:42. > :02:44.O'Brien's career unravelled at breakneck speed, beginning 11 days

:02:44. > :02:45.breakneck speed, beginning 11 days breakneck speed, beginning 11 days

:02:45. > :02:46.breakneck speed, beginning 11 days ago, where he prepared to travel to

:02:46. > :02:48.ago, where he prepared to travel to ago, where he prepared to travel to

:02:48. > :02:49.Rome for a people conclave, and Rome for a people conclave, and

:02:50. > :02:50.Rome for a people conclave, and gave an interview that suggested

:02:50. > :02:53.gave an interview that suggested gave an interview that suggested

:02:53. > :02:56.that priests may be allowed to that priests may be allowed to

:02:56. > :02:57.that priests may be allowed to that priests may be allowed to

:02:57. > :02:58.marrow. -- Maddy. It was part of marrow. -- Maddy. It was part of

:02:58. > :02:59.marrow. -- Maddy. It was part of marrow. -- Maddy. It was part of

:02:59. > :03:00.being a priest, when I was a young being a priest, when I was a young

:03:00. > :03:01.being a priest, when I was a young being a priest, when I was a young

:03:01. > :03:02.boy, like the priests did not get boy, like the priests did not get

:03:02. > :03:04.boy, like the priests did not get married, and that was it. Whether

:03:04. > :03:05.married, and that was it. Whether married, and that was it. Whether

:03:05. > :03:06.you are a student for the you are a student for the

:03:06. > :03:07.you are a student for the priesthood, it was part of the

:03:07. > :03:08.priesthood, it was part of the priesthood, it was part of the

:03:08. > :03:11.package, that you were celibate and package, that you were celibate and

:03:11. > :03:11.package, that you were celibate and package, that you were celibate and

:03:11. > :03:13.did not get married. By the weekend, did not get married. By the weekend,

:03:13. > :03:16.did not get married. By the weekend, a very different picture had

:03:16. > :03:17.a very different picture had a very different picture had

:03:17. > :03:18.started to emerge. Allegations of started to emerge. Allegations of

:03:18. > :03:20.inappropriate behaviour towards inappropriate behaviour towards

:03:20. > :03:20.inappropriate behaviour towards three priests and one former priest

:03:20. > :03:22.three priests and one former priest three priests and one former priest

:03:22. > :03:23.emerged in a Sunday newspaper. The emerged in a Sunday newspaper. The

:03:23. > :03:25.emerged in a Sunday newspaper. The cardinal said he would contest the

:03:25. > :03:26.cardinal said he would contest the cardinal said he would contest the

:03:26. > :03:28.claims, but there was no denial. claims, but there was no denial.

:03:28. > :03:30.claims, but there was no denial. The next day, the story escalated

:03:30. > :03:31.The next day, the story escalated The next day, the story escalated

:03:31. > :03:33.The next day, the story escalated father. On the day the leader of

:03:33. > :03:34.father. On the day the leader of Scotland's afflicts resigned.

:03:34. > :03:35.Scotland's afflicts resigned. Scotland's afflicts resigned.

:03:35. > :03:37.Cardinal Keith O'Brien stood down Cardinal Keith O'Brien stood down

:03:37. > :03:40.Cardinal Keith O'Brien stood down with immediate effect... As the

:03:40. > :03:40.with immediate effect... As the with immediate effect... As the

:03:41. > :03:42.Tempest raged, he retreated behind Tempest raged, he retreated behind

:03:42. > :03:43.Tempest raged, he retreated behind the walls of his Edinburgh

:03:43. > :03:45.the walls of his Edinburgh the walls of his Edinburgh

:03:45. > :03:46.residence. His first, it appeared residence. His first, it appeared

:03:46. > :03:47.residence. His first, it appeared yesterday. It was a short statement,

:03:47. > :03:49.yesterday. It was a short statement, yesterday. It was a short statement,

:03:49. > :03:59.but the content was explosive. In but the content was explosive. In

:03:59. > :04:08.

:04:08. > :04:10.but the content was explosive. In It was a startling admission about

:04:10. > :04:11.It was a startling admission about It was a startling admission about

:04:11. > :04:12.his private life, completely at his private life, completely at

:04:12. > :04:13.his private life, completely at odds with his public pronouncements

:04:14. > :04:15.odds with his public pronouncements odds with his public pronouncements

:04:15. > :04:17.on homosexuality and gay marriage. on homosexuality and gay marriage.

:04:17. > :04:19.on homosexuality and gay marriage. on homosexuality and gay marriage.

:04:19. > :04:21.If the United Kingdom does go for, If the United Kingdom does go for,

:04:21. > :04:23.and supports, same-sex marriages, and supports, same-sex marriages,

:04:23. > :04:23.and supports, same-sex marriages, and supports, same-sex marriages,

:04:23. > :04:25.it is shaming our country. It is it is shaming our country. It is

:04:25. > :04:26.it is shaming our country. It is it is shaming our country. It is

:04:26. > :04:28.time to call a halt from what you time to call a halt from what you

:04:28. > :04:29.time to call a halt from what you might call progress in society. I

:04:29. > :04:30.might call progress in society. I might call progress in society. I

:04:30. > :04:32.might call progress in society. I do not call it progress, what is

:04:32. > :04:33.do not call it progress, what is do not call it progress, what is

:04:33. > :04:35.happening now days, if same-sex happening now days, if same-sex

:04:35. > :04:36.happening now days, if same-sex unions were defined as marriages.

:04:37. > :04:38.unions were defined as marriages. unions were defined as marriages.

:04:38. > :04:39.Other aberrations would be taken Other aberrations would be taken

:04:39. > :04:40.Other aberrations would be taken place on society and it would

:04:40. > :04:42.place on society and it would place on society and it would

:04:42. > :04:52.degenerate farther than it has degenerate farther than it has

:04:52. > :04:54.already degenerated and into already degenerated and into

:04:54. > :04:55.immorality. Cardinal O'Brien is immorality. Cardinal O'Brien is

:04:55. > :04:56.immorality. Cardinal O'Brien is teaching what the church says on

:04:56. > :05:02.teaching what the church says on teaching what the church says on

:05:02. > :05:03.homosexuality, which won as is homosexuality, which won as is

:05:03. > :05:03.homosexuality, which won as is homosexuality, which won as is

:05:03. > :05:07.connected -- which is to say that connected -- which is to say that

:05:07. > :05:08.connected -- which is to say that marriage is related to family life.

:05:08. > :05:09.marriage is related to family life. marriage is related to family life.

:05:09. > :05:11.marriage is related to family life. If he did not live up to the

:05:11. > :05:12.If he did not live up to the If he did not live up to the

:05:12. > :05:14.promises he made, that is something promises he made, that is something

:05:14. > :05:15.promises he made, that is something promises he made, that is something

:05:16. > :05:16.he is very sorry for and he has he is very sorry for and he has

:05:16. > :05:18.he is very sorry for and he has he is very sorry for and he has

:05:18. > :05:20.apologised. I do not think it takes apologised. I do not think it takes

:05:20. > :05:21.apologised. I do not think it takes away from the teaching of the

:05:21. > :05:22.away from the teaching of the away from the teaching of the

:05:22. > :05:25.away from the teaching of the church and should not. But for a

:05:25. > :05:26.church and should not. But for a church and should not. But for a

:05:26. > :05:28.great many, the revelations about great many, the revelations about

:05:28. > :05:30.Cardinal O'Brien exposed rank Cardinal O'Brien exposed rank

:05:30. > :05:31.hypocrisy. Daniel Donaldson says hypocrisy. Daniel Donaldson says

:05:31. > :05:32.hypocrisy. Daniel Donaldson says the Church's attitude to sexuality

:05:32. > :05:33.the Church's attitude to sexuality the Church's attitude to sexuality

:05:33. > :05:35.the Church's attitude to sexuality forced him to turn his back on the

:05:35. > :05:36.forced him to turn his back on the forced him to turn his back on the

:05:37. > :05:37.institution. Now he has written to institution. Now he has written to

:05:37. > :05:40.institution. Now he has written to the church hierarchy calling for

:05:40. > :05:41.the church hierarchy calling for the church hierarchy calling for

:05:41. > :05:43.fresh dialogue. I am speaking from fresh dialogue. I am speaking from

:05:43. > :05:45.fresh dialogue. I am speaking from a heart, from experience, they have

:05:45. > :05:46.a heart, from experience, they have a heart, from experience, they have

:05:46. > :05:47.caused great anxiety. The negative caused great anxiety. The negative

:05:47. > :05:49.caused great anxiety. The negative reinforcement from words and deeds

:05:49. > :05:50.reinforcement from words and deeds reinforcement from words and deeds

:05:50. > :05:52.reinforcement from words and deeds is disturbing. It is almost like an

:05:52. > :05:53.is disturbing. It is almost like an is disturbing. It is almost like an

:05:53. > :05:55.is disturbing. It is almost like an olive branch to say, you can no

:05:55. > :05:56.olive branch to say, you can no olive branch to say, you can no

:05:56. > :05:58.longer sustain this view. But what longer sustain this view. But what

:05:58. > :05:59.longer sustain this view. But what longer sustain this view. But what

:05:59. > :06:00.the church excess -- but whilst the the church excess -- but whilst the

:06:00. > :06:01.the church excess -- but whilst the church itself admits its moral

:06:01. > :06:02.church itself admits its moral church itself admits its moral

:06:02. > :06:03.authority has been undermined, this authority has been undermined, this

:06:03. > :06:04.authority has been undermined, this academic says those hoping for

:06:04. > :06:05.academic says those hoping for academic says those hoping for

:06:05. > :06:06.major change are likely to be major change are likely to be

:06:06. > :06:08.major change are likely to be disappointed. I do not think the

:06:08. > :06:10.disappointed. I do not think the disappointed. I do not think the

:06:10. > :06:11.Catholic Church will give up its Catholic Church will give up its

:06:11. > :06:13.stance because one cardinal stance because one cardinal

:06:13. > :06:14.stance because one cardinal archbishop was bound to have some

:06:14. > :06:15.archbishop was bound to have some archbishop was bound to have some

:06:15. > :06:16.kind of gay relationships, and kind of gay relationships, and

:06:16. > :06:17.kind of gay relationships, and we're not sure what that consisted

:06:17. > :06:18.we're not sure what that consisted we're not sure what that consisted

:06:18. > :06:19.we're not sure what that consisted of, I do not think the Catholic

:06:19. > :06:19.of, I do not think the Catholic of, I do not think the Catholic

:06:19. > :06:20.of, I do not think the Catholic Church would give up its stand on

:06:21. > :06:22.Church would give up its stand on Church would give up its stand on

:06:22. > :06:23.Church would give up its stand on these things. It would be naive to

:06:23. > :06:26.these things. It would be naive to these things. It would be naive to

:06:26. > :06:27.think it would. But certainly, I think it would. But certainly, I

:06:27. > :06:29.think it would. But certainly, I would like, on all sides, are

:06:29. > :06:32.would like, on all sides, are considered discussion. A discussion

:06:32. > :06:34.considered discussion. A discussion considered discussion. A discussion

:06:34. > :06:37.about a subject, that he believes about a subject, that he believes

:06:37. > :06:38.remains universally problematic. remains universally problematic.

:06:38. > :06:39.remains universally problematic. remains universally problematic.

:06:39. > :06:41.For sex and the Catholic Church, it For sex and the Catholic Church, it

:06:41. > :06:43.For sex and the Catholic Church, it has been a long-standing difficulty.

:06:43. > :06:44.has been a long-standing difficulty. has been a long-standing difficulty.

:06:44. > :06:46.has been a long-standing difficulty. Between humanity and sex. It is not

:06:46. > :06:47.Between humanity and sex. It is not Between humanity and sex. It is not

:06:47. > :06:49.like liberal societies have handles like liberal societies have handles

:06:49. > :06:54.like liberal societies have handles six any better. Women's there are

:06:54. > :06:56.six any better. Women's there are six any better. Women's there are

:06:56. > :06:57.this morning -- women's hour this this morning -- women's hour this

:06:57. > :06:58.this morning -- women's hour this morning had a whole discussion on

:06:58. > :07:00.morning had a whole discussion on morning had a whole discussion on

:07:00. > :07:01.morning had a whole discussion on morning had a whole discussion on

:07:01. > :07:02.page 3. I saw a youngster with a T- page 3. I saw a youngster with a T-

:07:02. > :07:02.page 3. I saw a youngster with a T- page 3. I saw a youngster with a T-

:07:02. > :07:04.shirt, about five or six years of shirt, about five or six years of

:07:04. > :07:05.shirt, about five or six years of shirt, about five or six years of

:07:05. > :07:08.age, which said, I like sexy Boys. age, which said, I like sexy Boys.

:07:08. > :07:09.age, which said, I like sexy Boys. You cannot think that modern

:07:09. > :07:10.You cannot think that modern You cannot think that modern

:07:10. > :07:10.societies handle sex any better societies handle sex any better

:07:11. > :07:12.societies handle sex any better than the Catholic church, no one

:07:12. > :07:13.than the Catholic church, no one than the Catholic church, no one

:07:13. > :07:15.than the Catholic church, no one does, because no one knows how to.

:07:15. > :07:16.does, because no one knows how to. does, because no one knows how to.

:07:16. > :07:17.Cardinal O'Brien has left the Cardinal O'Brien has left the

:07:17. > :07:19.Cardinal O'Brien has left the country in the knowledge that, once

:07:19. > :07:20.country in the knowledge that, once country in the knowledge that, once

:07:20. > :07:22.and Newport is elected, he is and Newport is elected, he is

:07:22. > :07:23.and Newport is elected, he is and Newport is elected, he is

:07:23. > :07:24.likely to face a Vatican inquiry. - likely to face a Vatican inquiry. -

:07:24. > :07:26.likely to face a Vatican inquiry. - likely to face a Vatican inquiry. -

:07:26. > :07:28.- once the new pope is elected. The - once the new pope is elected. The

:07:28. > :07:28.- once the new pope is elected. The Church will have to learn lessons

:07:29. > :07:29.Church will have to learn lessons Church will have to learn lessons

:07:29. > :07:31.recovering from a turbulent period recovering from a turbulent period

:07:31. > :07:33.recovering from a turbulent period recovering from a turbulent period

:07:33. > :07:34.in its history. But we cannot be in its history. But we cannot be

:07:34. > :07:36.in its history. But we cannot be defeatist, my dear brothers and

:07:36. > :07:40.defeatist, my dear brothers and defeatist, my dear brothers and

:07:40. > :07:42.sisters. And I am not defeatist. sisters. And I am not defeatist.

:07:42. > :07:43.sisters. And I am not defeatist. sisters. And I am not defeatist.

:07:43. > :07:44.The answer to this sad episode is The answer to this sad episode is

:07:44. > :07:47.The answer to this sad episode is The answer to this sad episode is

:07:47. > :07:47.not to throw in the towel. We need not to throw in the towel. We need

:07:47. > :07:49.not to throw in the towel. We need rather to renew a faithfulness to

:07:49. > :07:52.rather to renew a faithfulness to rather to renew a faithfulness to

:07:52. > :07:54.rather to renew a faithfulness to Jesus Christ and to go about our

:07:54. > :07:58.Jesus Christ and to go about our Jesus Christ and to go about our

:07:58. > :07:59.business humbly, but trustingly and joyfully.

:07:59. > :08:00.joyfully. joyfully.

:08:00. > :08:02.The global Catholic Church is, of The global Catholic Church is, of

:08:02. > :08:03.The global Catholic Church is, of course, a flock without a shepherd.

:08:03. > :08:04.course, a flock without a shepherd. course, a flock without a shepherd.

:08:04. > :08:05.course, a flock without a shepherd. The conclave to elect the new pope

:08:05. > :08:07.The conclave to elect the new pope The conclave to elect the new pope

:08:07. > :08:08.The conclave to elect the new pope is likely to be held next week.

:08:08. > :08:09.is likely to be held next week. is likely to be held next week.

:08:09. > :08:10.Today in Rome, the college of Today in Rome, the college of

:08:10. > :08:11.Today in Rome, the college of cardinals met for the first time

:08:11. > :08:12.cardinals met for the first time cardinals met for the first time

:08:12. > :08:13.and held prayers. The BBC's Allan and held prayers. The BBC's Allan

:08:13. > :08:14.and held prayers. The BBC's Allan Little is in Vatican City. Before

:08:14. > :08:15.Little is in Vatican City. Before Little is in Vatican City. Before

:08:15. > :08:16.Little is in Vatican City. Before Little is in Vatican City. Before

:08:16. > :08:17.we came on a year, I asked him what we came on a year, I asked him what

:08:17. > :08:19.we came on a year, I asked him what the reaction there was to the

:08:19. > :08:20.cardinal's statement. cardinal's statement.

:08:20. > :08:21.cardinal's statement. cardinal's statement.

:08:21. > :08:22.This has come at the worst possible This has come at the worst possible

:08:22. > :08:23.This has come at the worst possible This has come at the worst possible

:08:23. > :08:24.time for the church and there was time for the church and there was

:08:24. > :08:26.time for the church and there was consternation here. I have had

:08:26. > :08:27.consternation here. I have had consternation here. I have had

:08:27. > :08:30.several conversations with app Moss, several conversations with app Moss,

:08:30. > :08:32.several conversations with app Moss, priests, other clerics, -- with

:08:32. > :08:33.priests, other clerics, -- with cardinals, priests, other clerics,

:08:34. > :08:34.cardinals, priests, other clerics, cardinals, priests, other clerics,

:08:34. > :08:36.cardinals, priests, other clerics, who have not wanted to believe the

:08:36. > :08:38.who have not wanted to believe the who have not wanted to believe the

:08:38. > :08:39.allegations. I kind of pained allegations. I kind of pained

:08:39. > :08:41.allegations. I kind of pained reaction. Several people said to me,

:08:41. > :08:42.reaction. Several people said to me, reaction. Several people said to me,

:08:42. > :08:44.the timing is strange, there could the timing is strange, there could

:08:44. > :08:46.the timing is strange, there could be some vendetta against the priest,

:08:46. > :08:48.be some vendetta against the priest, be some vendetta against the priest,

:08:48. > :08:49.a cardinal who spoke out so a cardinal who spoke out so

:08:49. > :08:52.a cardinal who spoke out so vociferously in support of the

:08:52. > :08:53.vociferously in support of the vociferously in support of the

:08:53. > :08:54.Church's core values. The way Church's core values. The way

:08:55. > :08:55.Church's core values. The way Cardinal O'Brien spoke about Kirk -

:08:55. > :08:56.Cardinal O'Brien spoke about Kirk - Cardinal O'Brien spoke about Kirk -

:08:56. > :08:58.- spoke about, sexuality and gay - spoke about, sexuality and gay

:08:58. > :08:59.- spoke about, sexuality and gay marriage. But last night, when he

:08:59. > :09:00.marriage. But last night, when he marriage. But last night, when he

:09:00. > :09:02.made that state and admitting to made that state and admitting to

:09:02. > :09:04.made that state and admitting to his own problems, that defence kind

:09:04. > :09:06.his own problems, that defence kind his own problems, that defence kind

:09:06. > :09:07.his own problems, that defence kind of collapse. Today was the day that

:09:07. > :09:08.of collapse. Today was the day that of collapse. Today was the day that

:09:08. > :09:08.the cardinal's gathered in their the cardinal's gathered in their

:09:08. > :09:09.the cardinal's gathered in their general congregation to start the

:09:09. > :09:12.general congregation to start the general congregation to start the

:09:12. > :09:13.general congregation to start the process of electing a new pope. It

:09:13. > :09:14.process of electing a new pope. It process of electing a new pope. It

:09:14. > :09:15.process of electing a new pope. It has cast a shadow over the new --

:09:15. > :09:15.has cast a shadow over the new -- has cast a shadow over the new --

:09:15. > :09:18.over the whole proceedings and over the whole proceedings and

:09:18. > :09:20.there is absolute consternation there is absolute consternation

:09:20. > :09:20.there is absolute consternation there is absolute consternation

:09:20. > :09:22.here. We have seen pictures of the here. We have seen pictures of the

:09:22. > :09:23.here. We have seen pictures of the College of Cardinals meeting. How

:09:23. > :09:24.College of Cardinals meeting. How College of Cardinals meeting. How

:09:24. > :09:27.significant Willerby not to have significant Willerby not to have

:09:27. > :09:28.significant Willerby not to have Keith O'Brien there, do you think?

:09:28. > :09:30.Keith O'Brien there, do you think? Keith O'Brien there, do you think?

:09:30. > :09:34.Last significant will it be. Last significant will it be.

:09:34. > :09:35.Last significant will it be. puts the whole question of

:09:35. > :09:36.puts the whole question of puts the whole question of

:09:36. > :09:37.sexuality into the priesthood at sexuality into the priesthood at

:09:37. > :09:38.sexuality into the priesthood at the forefront of the debate. I

:09:38. > :09:40.the forefront of the debate. I the forefront of the debate. I

:09:40. > :09:41.the forefront of the debate. I think there is a split opening up

:09:41. > :09:42.think there is a split opening up think there is a split opening up

:09:42. > :09:44.in the College of Cardinals between in the College of Cardinals between

:09:44. > :09:45.in the College of Cardinals between the Italian blog, if you like,

:09:45. > :09:46.the Italian blog, if you like, the Italian blog, if you like,

:09:46. > :09:49.the Italian blog, if you like, those who spent the whole career in

:09:49. > :09:50.those who spent the whole career in those who spent the whole career in

:09:50. > :09:51.those who spent the whole career in Italy, many of them in the Vatican

:09:51. > :09:52.Italy, many of them in the Vatican Italy, many of them in the Vatican

:09:52. > :09:53.City behind me. A split between City behind me. A split between

:09:53. > :09:55.City behind me. A split between them and men from much further

:09:55. > :09:57.them and men from much further them and men from much further

:09:57. > :09:58.afield, much more pastoral bishops afield, much more pastoral bishops

:09:58. > :09:59.afield, much more pastoral bishops afield, much more pastoral bishops

:09:59. > :10:00.and archbishops. I think there is a and archbishops. I think there is a

:10:00. > :10:04.and archbishops. I think there is a division opening up between groups.

:10:04. > :10:06.division opening up between groups. division opening up between groups.

:10:06. > :10:06.The men of that centralised and The men of that centralised and

:10:06. > :10:07.The men of that centralised and powerful civil service, they want

:10:07. > :10:09.powerful civil service, they want powerful civil service, they want

:10:09. > :10:10.powerful civil service, they want to get on with this conclave and

:10:10. > :10:13.to get on with this conclave and to get on with this conclave and

:10:13. > :10:14.have a swift and smooth succession. have a swift and smooth succession.

:10:14. > :10:15.Cardinals from, especially Cardinals from, especially

:10:15. > :10:17.Cardinals from, especially developing world, I say to slowdown,

:10:17. > :10:17.developing world, I say to slowdown, developing world, I say to slowdown,

:10:17. > :10:19.developing world, I say to slowdown, needing time to get to know each

:10:19. > :10:19.needing time to get to know each needing time to get to know each

:10:19. > :10:21.needing time to get to know each other, but they do not know the

:10:21. > :10:22.other, but they do not know the other, but they do not know the

:10:22. > :10:23.other, but they do not know the Roman system and the more time. The

:10:23. > :10:25.Roman system and the more time. The Roman system and the more time. The

:10:25. > :10:25.division that has emerged about the division that has emerged about the

:10:25. > :10:26.division that has emerged about the timing of the conclave as

:10:26. > :10:27.timing of the conclave as timing of the conclave as

:10:27. > :10:29.symptomatic of a much broader symptomatic of a much broader

:10:29. > :10:30.symptomatic of a much broader division in the church, between

:10:30. > :10:30.division in the church, between division in the church, between

:10:30. > :10:34.career bureaucrats and the much career bureaucrats and the much

:10:34. > :10:35.more pastoral bishops. Cardinal more pastoral bishops. Cardinal

:10:36. > :10:37.more pastoral bishops. Cardinal Keith O'Brien has left Scotland.

:10:37. > :10:38.Keith O'Brien has left Scotland. Keith O'Brien has left Scotland.

:10:38. > :10:39.But there is a Vatican inquiry But there is a Vatican inquiry

:10:39. > :10:41.But there is a Vatican inquiry going on into the allegations

:10:41. > :10:41.going on into the allegations going on into the allegations

:10:41. > :10:43.against them. How will that against them. How will that

:10:43. > :10:43.against them. How will that against them. How will that

:10:43. > :10:46.progress and do you think it will progress and do you think it will

:10:46. > :10:47.progress and do you think it will be made public? It is interesting,

:10:47. > :10:49.be made public? It is interesting, be made public? It is interesting,

:10:49. > :10:50.because we do not know anything because we do not know anything

:10:50. > :10:51.because we do not know anything about this inquiry. We do Nannau

:10:51. > :10:54.about this inquiry. We do Nannau about this inquiry. We do Nannau

:10:54. > :10:55.about this inquiry. We do Nannau even if one has been ordered. When

:10:55. > :10:56.even if one has been ordered. When even if one has been ordered. When

:10:56. > :10:57.even if one has been ordered. When the papacy becomes vacant, -- We do

:10:57. > :10:57.the papacy becomes vacant, -- We do the papacy becomes vacant, -- We do

:10:57. > :10:59.the papacy becomes vacant, -- We do not even know if one has been

:10:59. > :11:01.not even know if one has been not even know if one has been

:11:01. > :11:02.ordered. When the papacy becomes ordered. When the papacy becomes

:11:02. > :11:05.ordered. When the papacy becomes vacant, all of the orders within

:11:05. > :11:06.vacant, all of the orders within vacant, all of the orders within

:11:06. > :11:07.Vatican City, all of the people Vatican City, all of the people

:11:07. > :11:09.Vatican City, all of the people holding those offices, before they

:11:10. > :11:10.holding those offices, before they holding those offices, before they

:11:10. > :11:11.holding those offices, before they step down, there is no need to

:11:11. > :11:12.step down, there is no need to step down, there is no need to

:11:12. > :11:14.order an inquiry before that. We order an inquiry before that. We

:11:14. > :11:16.order an inquiry before that. We order an inquiry before that. We

:11:16. > :11:17.are still there will be one. But are still there will be one. But

:11:17. > :11:18.are still there will be one. But the Vatican spokesman has today

:11:18. > :11:18.the Vatican spokesman has today the Vatican spokesman has today

:11:18. > :11:20.battered away questions about this battered away questions about this

:11:20. > :11:21.battered away questions about this battered away questions about this

:11:21. > :11:22.inquiry, said he had not heard of inquiry, said he had not heard of

:11:22. > :11:23.inquiry, said he had not heard of inquiry, said he had not heard of

:11:23. > :11:24.one and did not know who ordered one and did not know who ordered

:11:24. > :11:25.one and did not know who ordered one and did not know who ordered

:11:25. > :11:26.one. The truth is there is no one one. The truth is there is no one

:11:26. > :11:28.one. The truth is there is no one one. The truth is there is no one

:11:28. > :11:28.to order one and it will not happen to order one and it will not happen

:11:29. > :11:29.to order one and it will not happen to order one and it will not happen

:11:29. > :11:30.until the new pope is in place and until the new pope is in place and

:11:30. > :11:31.until the new pope is in place and until the new pope is in place and

:11:31. > :11:32.all the posts are filled with new all the posts are filled with new

:11:32. > :11:33.all the posts are filled with new people. We do know whether there

:11:33. > :11:36.people. We do know whether there people. We do know whether there

:11:36. > :11:36.people. We do know whether there will be an inquiry or if there is

:11:36. > :11:38.will be an inquiry or if there is will be an inquiry or if there is

:11:38. > :11:39.will be an inquiry or if there is one and what form it will take. If

:11:39. > :11:41.one and what form it will take. If one and what form it will take. If

:11:41. > :11:42.it will look into Cardinal it will look into Cardinal

:11:42. > :11:44.O'Brien's activities, the O'Brien's activities, the

:11:44. > :11:44.O'Brien's activities, the allegations against him, or into

:11:45. > :11:45.allegations against him, or into allegations against him, or into

:11:45. > :11:47.allegations against him, or into the question of who else knew how

:11:47. > :11:48.the question of who else knew how the question of who else knew how

:11:48. > :11:49.much and when in the Scottish much and when in the Scottish

:11:49. > :11:50.much and when in the Scottish much and when in the Scottish

:11:50. > :11:50.Catholic Church? We do not know the Catholic Church? We do not know the

:11:50. > :11:52.Catholic Church? We do not know the Catholic Church? We do not know the

:11:52. > :11:53.scope of any inquiry and will not scope of any inquiry and will not

:11:53. > :11:53.scope of any inquiry and will not scope of any inquiry and will not

:11:53. > :11:55.know that until the new pope is in know that until the new pope is in

:11:55. > :11:55.know that until the new pope is in know that until the new pope is in

:11:55. > :11:56.place. Even then, we will not know place. Even then, we will not know

:11:56. > :11:57.place. Even then, we will not know place. Even then, we will not know

:11:57. > :12:00.if the results will be made public. if the results will be made public.

:12:00. > :12:00.if the results will be made public. if the results will be made public.

:12:00. > :12:02.One thing is for sure, the Vatican One thing is for sure, the Vatican

:12:02. > :12:05.One thing is for sure, the Vatican is not an institution that response

:12:05. > :12:07.is not an institution that response is not an institution that response

:12:07. > :12:11.or caves into public opinion polls or caves into public opinion polls

:12:11. > :12:12.or caves into public opinion polls of Allan Little, thank you.

:12:12. > :12:14.of Allan Little, thank you. of Allan Little, thank you.

:12:14. > :12:15.of Allan Little, thank you. I am joined in the studio by an

:12:15. > :12:16.I am joined in the studio by an I am joined in the studio by an

:12:16. > :12:18.expert panel from inside and expert panel from inside and

:12:18. > :12:19.outside the Catholic Church. outside the Catholic Church.

:12:19. > :12:20.outside the Catholic Church. Catherine Deveney is a journalist

:12:20. > :12:21.Catherine Deveney is a journalist Catherine Deveney is a journalist

:12:21. > :12:22.from The Observer newspaper. She from The Observer newspaper. She

:12:22. > :12:23.from The Observer newspaper. She broke the original story. John

:12:23. > :12:24.broke the original story. John broke the original story. John

:12:24. > :12:26.Haldane, a professor of moral Haldane, a professor of moral

:12:26. > :12:27.philosophy at St Andrew's philosophy at St Andrew's

:12:27. > :12:29.philosophy at St Andrew's University. He is also an adviser

:12:29. > :12:30.University. He is also an adviser University. He is also an adviser

:12:30. > :12:31.to the Vatican. The Reverend Martin to the Vatican. The Reverend Martin

:12:31. > :12:32.to the Vatican. The Reverend Martin Johnston from the Church of

:12:32. > :12:33.Johnston from the Church of Johnston from the Church of

:12:33. > :12:34.Scotland is spearheading a key Scotland is spearheading a key

:12:34. > :12:35.anti-poverty initiative. Liz Leydon anti-poverty initiative. Liz Leydon

:12:35. > :12:37.anti-poverty initiative. Liz Leydon is the editor of the Scottish

:12:37. > :12:38.is the editor of the Scottish is the editor of the Scottish

:12:38. > :12:38.Catholic Observer. And James Conroy Catholic Observer. And James Conroy

:12:38. > :12:41.Catholic Observer. And James Conroy is professor of religious education

:12:41. > :12:42.is professor of religious education is professor of religious education

:12:42. > :12:52.at Glasgow University. Thank you at Glasgow University. Thank you

:12:52. > :12:58.

:12:58. > :13:03.at Glasgow University. Thank you Did you believe the story would

:13:03. > :13:06.Did you believe the story would Did you believe the story would

:13:06. > :13:06.Did you believe the story would have such an impact? I think all

:13:06. > :13:07.have such an impact? I think all have such an impact? I think all

:13:07. > :13:08.have such an impact? I think all busily that it would have an impact,

:13:08. > :13:09.busily that it would have an impact, busily that it would have an impact,

:13:09. > :13:10.busily that it would have an impact, but there was a doubt as to whether

:13:11. > :13:11.but there was a doubt as to whether but there was a doubt as to whether

:13:12. > :13:14.but there was a doubt as to whether we would be able to publish the

:13:14. > :13:15.we would be able to publish the we would be able to publish the

:13:15. > :13:17.truth. People think it is simple, truth. People think it is simple,

:13:17. > :13:26.truth. People think it is simple, truth. People think it is simple,

:13:27. > :13:29.but it is often quite a complicated but it is often quite a complicated

:13:29. > :13:30.but it is often quite a complicated process. It has been a difficult

:13:30. > :13:32.process. It has been a difficult process. It has been a difficult

:13:32. > :13:32.process. It has been a difficult week for the four men in question.

:13:32. > :13:34.week for the four men in question. week for the four men in question.

:13:34. > :13:36.week for the four men in question. The ball for his has been on what

:13:36. > :13:37.The ball for his has been on what The ball for his has been on what

:13:37. > :13:38.The ball for his has been on what has been here more to four coming

:13:38. > :13:39.has been here more to four coming has been here more to four coming

:13:39. > :13:41.has been here more to four coming for work done their story has been

:13:41. > :13:42.for work done their story has been for work done their story has been

:13:42. > :13:44.doubted. It has been a traumatic doubted. It has been a traumatic

:13:45. > :13:47.doubted. It has been a traumatic doubted. It has been a traumatic

:13:47. > :13:51.week for them. I think there is a week for them. I think there is a

:13:52. > :13:53.week for them. I think there is a mixture of Cardinal O'Brien and

:13:53. > :13:54.mixture of Cardinal O'Brien and mixture of Cardinal O'Brien and

:13:54. > :13:57.also pleased that they have been also pleased that they have been

:13:58. > :13:59.also pleased that they have been also pleased that they have been

:13:59. > :14:01.vindicated, but also a bit of anger vindicated, but also a bit of anger

:14:01. > :14:03.vindicated, but also a bit of anger vindicated, but also a bit of anger

:14:03. > :14:05.that we have come to where we are. that we have come to where we are.

:14:05. > :14:05.that we have come to where we are. that we have come to where we are.

:14:05. > :14:08.There is the danger that this would There is the danger that this would

:14:08. > :14:10.There is the danger that this would reaches a new level of hypocrisy

:14:10. > :14:11.reaches a new level of hypocrisy reaches a new level of hypocrisy

:14:11. > :14:14.within the Cartholic Church. This within the Cartholic Church. This

:14:14. > :14:15.within the Cartholic Church. This idea that we are all shell-shocked

:14:15. > :14:16.idea that we are all shell-shocked idea that we are all shell-shocked

:14:16. > :14:18.idea that we are all shell-shocked by this and I do not think anybody

:14:18. > :14:18.by this and I do not think anybody by this and I do not think anybody

:14:18. > :14:21.by this and I do not think anybody would be naive enough to think that

:14:21. > :14:22.would be naive enough to think that would be naive enough to think that

:14:22. > :14:23.would be naive enough to think that he is the only senior member of the

:14:23. > :14:25.he is the only senior member of the he is the only senior member of the

:14:25. > :14:26.week Cartholic Church in this week Cartholic Church in this

:14:26. > :14:27.week Cartholic Church in this week Cartholic Church in this

:14:27. > :14:29.position. I think there will be a position. I think there will be a

:14:29. > :14:36.position. I think there will be a lot of senior figures very uneasy

:14:36. > :14:37.lot of senior figures very uneasy lot of senior figures very uneasy

:14:37. > :14:40.lot of senior figures very uneasy now. The key facts that you brought

:14:40. > :14:45.now. The key facts that you brought now. The key facts that you brought

:14:45. > :14:47.now. The key facts that you brought out into the public is this? Not, I

:14:47. > :14:47.out into the public is this? Not, I out into the public is this? Not, I

:14:47. > :14:49.out into the public is this? Not, I was very careful that we did not

:14:49. > :14:51.was very careful that we did not was very careful that we did not

:14:51. > :14:52.publish anything that could not be publish anything that could not be

:14:52. > :14:55.publish anything that could not be substantiated. I have spoken to the

:14:55. > :14:56.substantiated. I have spoken to the substantiated. I have spoken to the

:14:56. > :14:57.people involved and I was totally people involved and I was totally

:14:57. > :15:00.people involved and I was totally convinced of their accuracy and

:15:00. > :15:01.convinced of their accuracy and convinced of their accuracy and

:15:01. > :15:02.truth. Obviously, in the course of truth. Obviously, in the course of

:15:02. > :15:05.truth. Obviously, in the course of truth. Obviously, in the course of

:15:05. > :15:05.the story like this you get to here the story like this you get to here

:15:05. > :15:07.the story like this you get to here the story like this you get to here

:15:07. > :15:08.other things, but I did not hear other things, but I did not hear

:15:08. > :15:11.other things, but I did not hear anything which could be completely

:15:11. > :15:12.anything which could be completely anything which could be completely

:15:12. > :15:13.substantiated, and his story was substantiated, and his story was

:15:13. > :15:16.substantiated, and his story was too important to be contaminated by

:15:16. > :15:20.too important to be contaminated by too important to be contaminated by

:15:20. > :15:21.eight tittle-tattle. But I am eight tittle-tattle. But I am

:15:21. > :15:25.eight tittle-tattle. But I am absolutely sure that Cardinal Keith

:15:25. > :15:26.absolutely sure that Cardinal Keith absolutely sure that Cardinal Keith

:15:26. > :15:28.O'Brien is not unique. The size O'Brien is not unique. The size

:15:28. > :15:30.O'Brien is not unique. The size been talk about as the greatest

:15:30. > :15:31.been talk about as the greatest been talk about as the greatest

:15:31. > :15:33.prizes for the Catholic Church prizes for the Catholic Church

:15:33. > :15:40.prizes for the Catholic Church since the Reformation. How do you

:15:40. > :15:40.since the Reformation. How do you since the Reformation. How do you

:15:41. > :15:43.since the Reformation. How do you view it? For what it is worth,

:15:43. > :15:45.view it? For what it is worth, view it? For what it is worth,

:15:45. > :15:46.there were huge divisions and the there were huge divisions and the

:15:46. > :15:48.there were huge divisions and the Catholic Church in the 18th century.

:15:48. > :15:50.Catholic Church in the 18th century. Catholic Church in the 18th century.

:15:50. > :15:50.Catholic Church in the 18th century. So, I am not so sure about the

:15:51. > :15:55.So, I am not so sure about the greatest crisis since the

:15:55. > :15:57.greatest crisis since the Reformation, but clearly,

:15:57. > :15:59.Reformation, but clearly, Reformation, but clearly,

:15:59. > :16:02.Katharina's story and the fall-out Katharina's story and the fall-out

:16:02. > :16:05.Katharina's story and the fall-out from that has left many people

:16:05. > :16:07.from that has left many people from that has left many people

:16:07. > :16:08.stunned, but what matters now is stunned, but what matters now is

:16:08. > :16:11.stunned, but what matters now is not just cleaning up this

:16:11. > :16:15.not just cleaning up this particular mess, but looking

:16:15. > :16:18.particular mess, but looking particular mess, but looking

:16:18. > :16:19.forward to the future. Of course, forward to the future. Of course,

:16:19. > :16:22.forward to the future. Of course, forward to the future. Of course,

:16:22. > :16:23.there was a story in the public there was a story in the public

:16:23. > :16:24.there was a story in the public there was a story in the public

:16:24. > :16:25.domain, but there is a belief that domain, but there is a belief that

:16:25. > :16:32.domain, but there is a belief that domain, but there is a belief that

:16:32. > :16:33.people knew all about it and it was people knew all about it and it was

:16:33. > :16:34.people knew all about it and it was people knew all about it and it was

:16:34. > :16:36.kept secret. The two of us know the kept secret. The two of us know the

:16:36. > :16:37.kept secret. The two of us know the kept secret. The two of us know the

:16:37. > :16:43.details of this, which is that the details of this, which is that the

:16:43. > :16:44.details of this, which is that the nature of these allegations could

:16:44. > :16:45.nature of these allegations could nature of these allegations could

:16:45. > :16:46.nature of these allegations could not simply be dealt with by the

:16:46. > :16:48.not simply be dealt with by the not simply be dealt with by the

:16:48. > :16:50.Scottish Catholic Church because it Scottish Catholic Church because it

:16:50. > :16:51.Scottish Catholic Church because it did was dealing with the senior

:16:51. > :16:52.did was dealing with the senior did was dealing with the senior

:16:52. > :16:54.did was dealing with the senior member of it, so it was important

:16:54. > :16:56.member of it, so it was important member of it, so it was important

:16:56. > :17:02.that any investigation of this had that any investigation of this had

:17:02. > :17:03.that any investigation of this had that any investigation of this had

:17:03. > :17:04.to come from the Vatican. I spoke to come from the Vatican. I spoke

:17:04. > :17:06.to come from the Vatican. I spoke to come from the Vatican. I spoke

:17:06. > :17:10.to a couple of figures who actually to a couple of figures who actually

:17:10. > :17:11.to a couple of figures who actually had begun to investigate this. I

:17:11. > :17:13.had begun to investigate this. I believe that the investigations

:17:13. > :17:14.believe that the investigations believe that the investigations

:17:14. > :17:16.believe that the investigations where due to start back in October

:17:16. > :17:18.where due to start back in October where due to start back in October

:17:18. > :17:22.and whether the results of that and whether the results of that

:17:22. > :17:22.and whether the results of that and whether the results of that

:17:22. > :17:28.become public remains to be seen. become public remains to be seen.

:17:28. > :17:29.become public remains to be seen. become public remains to be seen.

:17:29. > :17:30.think it is quite inaccurate to say think it is quite inaccurate to say

:17:30. > :17:31.think it is quite inaccurate to say that the Catholic Church in

:17:31. > :17:33.that the Catholic Church in that the Catholic Church in

:17:33. > :17:35.Scotland did not know what was Scotland did not know what was

:17:35. > :17:36.Scotland did not know what was going on. There was an intermediate

:17:36. > :17:40.going on. There was an intermediate going on. There was an intermediate

:17:40. > :17:40.very from the Catholic Church who very from the Catholic Church who

:17:40. > :17:45.very from the Catholic Church who took these allegations to the

:17:45. > :17:45.took these allegations to the took these allegations to the

:17:45. > :17:47.Vatican. The allegations were put Vatican. The allegations were put

:17:47. > :17:48.Vatican. The allegations were put Vatican. The allegations were put

:17:48. > :17:49.to them in writing and that is the to them in writing and that is the

:17:49. > :17:50.to them in writing and that is the disappointing element of the story

:17:50. > :17:52.disappointing element of the story disappointing element of the story

:17:52. > :17:53.disappointing element of the story that we are seeing again that when

:17:53. > :17:55.that we are seeing again that when that we are seeing again that when

:17:55. > :17:58.the churches confronted by wrong the churches confronted by wrong

:17:58. > :18:01.the churches confronted by wrong doing, instead of listening to the

:18:01. > :18:01.doing, instead of listening to the individuals involved, the instinct

:18:01. > :18:03.individuals involved, the instinct individuals involved, the instinct

:18:03. > :18:05.individuals involved, the instinct is to cover up to protect the

:18:05. > :18:08.is to cover up to protect the is to cover up to protect the

:18:08. > :18:09.institution. That is a very institution. That is a very

:18:09. > :18:17.institution. That is a very dangerous practice. It is rather

:18:17. > :18:19.dangerous practice. It is rather complicated, but by understanding

:18:19. > :18:20.complicated, but by understanding complicated, but by understanding

:18:20. > :18:25.is that the accusations to me is that the accusations to me

:18:25. > :18:26.is that the accusations to me church where made last Saturday.

:18:26. > :18:28.church where made last Saturday. church where made last Saturday.

:18:28. > :18:30.They were made prior to Saturday They were made prior to Saturday

:18:30. > :18:36.They were made prior to Saturday and the publication of the paper

:18:36. > :18:37.and the publication of the paper and the publication of the paper

:18:37. > :18:39.and the publication of the paper the following day. No, I know about

:18:39. > :18:49.the following day. No, I know about the following day. No, I know about

:18:49. > :18:50.

:18:50. > :18:50.the situation of the intermediate But that was to take the complaints

:18:50. > :18:52.But that was to take the complaints But that was to take the complaints

:18:52. > :18:53.procedure directly to Rome, rather procedure directly to Rome, rather

:18:53. > :18:55.procedure directly to Rome, rather than start an internal procedure

:18:55. > :19:00.than start an internal procedure than start an internal procedure

:19:00. > :19:01.within the Scottish Catholic Church. within the Scottish Catholic Church.

:19:01. > :19:02.within the Scottish Catholic Church. within the Scottish Catholic Church.

:19:02. > :19:03.For the Church to say that they did For the Church to say that they did

:19:03. > :19:06.For the Church to say that they did not have those allegations was

:19:06. > :19:09.not have those allegations was not have those allegations was

:19:09. > :19:12.simply not true. The Adam and simply not true. The Adam and

:19:12. > :19:14.simply not true. The Adam and simply not true. The Adam and

:19:14. > :19:16.writing. They are also, at the end, writing. They are also, at the end,

:19:16. > :19:18.writing. They are also, at the end, went specific allegations were laid

:19:18. > :19:19.went specific allegations were laid went specific allegations were laid

:19:19. > :19:20.went specific allegations were laid out, there was a question at the

:19:20. > :19:22.out, there was a question at the out, there was a question at the

:19:22. > :19:24.out, there was a question at the end which was, is it true that the

:19:24. > :19:25.end which was, is it true that the end which was, is it true that the

:19:25. > :19:27.cardinal had broken his vow of cardinal had broken his vow of

:19:27. > :19:30.cardinal had broken his vow of celibacy? You could not yet clear

:19:30. > :19:32.celibacy? You could not yet clear celibacy? You could not yet clear

:19:32. > :19:34.than that. We were hearing people than that. We were hearing people

:19:34. > :19:36.than that. We were hearing people coming out of mass yesterday simply

:19:36. > :19:36.coming out of mass yesterday simply coming out of mass yesterday simply

:19:36. > :19:41.coming out of mass yesterday simply wear any state of shock at the

:19:41. > :19:42.wear any state of shock at the wear any state of shock at the

:19:42. > :19:44.wear any state of shock at the moment. I think that is true, given

:19:44. > :19:45.moment. I think that is true, given moment. I think that is true, given

:19:45. > :19:49.moment. I think that is true, given me many years of strong and 4th

:19:49. > :19:50.me many years of strong and 4th me many years of strong and 4th

:19:50. > :19:51.Light leadership of Keith O'Brien, Light leadership of Keith O'Brien,

:19:51. > :19:55.Light leadership of Keith O'Brien, Light leadership of Keith O'Brien,

:19:55. > :19:56.they simply did not want to believe they simply did not want to believe

:19:56. > :19:57.they simply did not want to believe they simply did not want to believe

:19:57. > :19:58.this. But to say they will have this. But to say they will have

:19:58. > :19:59.this. But to say they will have doubts about their faith because of

:19:59. > :20:01.doubts about their faith because of doubts about their faith because of

:20:01. > :20:03.doubts about their faith because of this is taking it easy step too far.

:20:03. > :20:06.this is taking it easy step too far. this is taking it easy step too far.

:20:06. > :20:11.One said, you would think that One said, you would think that

:20:11. > :20:13.Christianity revolved around one Christianity revolved around one

:20:13. > :20:15.Christianity revolved around one man. Then the set, actually, it

:20:15. > :20:17.man. Then the set, actually, it man. Then the set, actually, it

:20:17. > :20:19.does, it revolves around Jesus does, it revolves around Jesus

:20:19. > :20:20.does, it revolves around Jesus does, it revolves around Jesus

:20:20. > :20:22.Christ. That put a lot of things in Christ. That put a lot of things in

:20:22. > :20:23.Christ. That put a lot of things in Christ. That put a lot of things in

:20:23. > :20:25.perspective for me. There is a lot perspective for me. There is a lot

:20:25. > :20:26.perspective for me. There is a lot perspective for me. There is a lot

:20:26. > :20:28.of pain coming from this and a lot of pain coming from this and a lot

:20:28. > :20:29.of pain coming from this and a lot of questions as to why Catholics

:20:29. > :20:31.of questions as to why Catholics of questions as to why Catholics

:20:31. > :20:33.and the clergy in Scotland had and the clergy in Scotland had

:20:33. > :20:36.and the clergy in Scotland had about this for the first time

:20:36. > :20:36.about this for the first time about this for the first time

:20:36. > :20:42.through the secular media. There through the secular media. There

:20:42. > :20:43.through the secular media. There are questions as to why letters

:20:43. > :20:44.are questions as to why letters are questions as to why letters

:20:44. > :20:45.were not sent with the greater were not sent with the greater

:20:45. > :20:48.were not sent with the greater were not sent with the greater

:20:48. > :20:49.explanation as to what was going on. explanation as to what was going on.

:20:49. > :20:50.explanation as to what was going on. Ultimately, it was something that

:20:50. > :20:52.Ultimately, it was something that Ultimately, it was something that

:20:52. > :20:53.Ultimately, it was something that people do not want to believe and

:20:53. > :20:54.people do not want to believe and people do not want to believe and

:20:55. > :20:55.people do not want to believe and now it has been confirmed, there is

:20:55. > :21:00.now it has been confirmed, there is now it has been confirmed, there is

:21:00. > :21:02.now it has been confirmed, there is going to be quite a process to talk

:21:02. > :21:04.going to be quite a process to talk going to be quite a process to talk

:21:04. > :21:05.through. On a very personal level, through. On a very personal level,

:21:05. > :21:07.through. On a very personal level, through. On a very personal level,

:21:07. > :21:08.I wonder what is to be keen to I wonder what is to be keen to

:21:08. > :21:09.I wonder what is to be keen to I wonder what is to be keen to

:21:09. > :21:10.judging this in the court of public judging this in the court of public

:21:10. > :21:14.judging this in the court of public opinion when an inquiry is already

:21:14. > :21:17.opinion when an inquiry is already opinion when an inquiry is already

:21:17. > :21:18.under way. A suppose it is under way. A suppose it is

:21:18. > :21:18.important for the Scottish important for the Scottish

:21:18. > :21:21.important for the Scottish Cartholic Church to be open about

:21:21. > :21:22.Cartholic Church to be open about Cartholic Church to be open about

:21:22. > :21:23.this because of past mistakes, this because of past mistakes,

:21:23. > :21:26.this because of past mistakes, where they have been accused of

:21:26. > :21:28.where they have been accused of where they have been accused of

:21:28. > :21:29.covering up? A of course, covering up? A of course,

:21:29. > :21:30.covering up? A of course, institutions are being put under

:21:30. > :21:35.institutions are being put under institutions are being put under

:21:35. > :21:36.great pressure to be open about great pressure to be open about

:21:36. > :21:36.great pressure to be open about great pressure to be open about

:21:36. > :21:38.everything. But if you look at ABB everything. But if you look at ABB

:21:38. > :21:39.everything. But if you look at ABB everything. But if you look at ABB

:21:39. > :21:39.see in the last few months or the see in the last few months or the

:21:40. > :21:41.see in the last few months or the Liberal Democrats in recent weeks,

:21:41. > :21:44.Liberal Democrats in recent weeks, Liberal Democrats in recent weeks,

:21:44. > :21:47.these things have the sort of these things have the sort of

:21:47. > :21:48.these things have the sort of pattern. That is that certain

:21:48. > :21:49.pattern. That is that certain accusations Ahmed, it is

:21:50. > :21:51.accusations Ahmed, it is accusations Ahmed, it is

:21:51. > :21:52.established there may be some established there may be some

:21:52. > :21:53.established there may be some established there may be some

:21:53. > :21:54.voracity and these and then it is, voracity and these and then it is,

:21:54. > :21:57.voracity and these and then it is, voracity and these and then it is,

:21:57. > :21:59.the question of how these are dealt the question of how these are dealt

:21:59. > :22:00.the question of how these are dealt the question of how these are dealt

:22:00. > :22:02.with. It does not mean they are with. It does not mean they are

:22:02. > :22:03.necessarily malignant in their necessarily malignant in their

:22:03. > :22:04.necessarily malignant in their necessarily malignant in their

:22:04. > :22:06.intent. It is some were just the intent. It is some were just the

:22:06. > :22:08.intent. It is some were just the way seems things seem to happen.

:22:09. > :22:09.way seems things seem to happen. way seems things seem to happen.

:22:09. > :22:12.Reverend, you are from a different Reverend, you are from a different

:22:12. > :22:15.Reverend, you are from a different denomination, but you must up being

:22:15. > :22:17.denomination, but you must up being denomination, but you must up being

:22:17. > :22:17.denomination, but you must up being shot by this? Yes, people from the

:22:17. > :22:18.shot by this? Yes, people from the shot by this? Yes, people from the

:22:18. > :22:20.Church of Scotland would be equally Church of Scotland would be equally

:22:20. > :22:23.Church of Scotland would be equally as shocked about this as many

:22:23. > :22:25.as shocked about this as many as shocked about this as many

:22:25. > :22:27.others. I think the archbishop was others. I think the archbishop was

:22:28. > :22:32.others. I think the archbishop was others. I think the archbishop was

:22:32. > :22:33.right in saying that this opens the right in saying that this opens the

:22:33. > :22:37.right in saying that this opens the Church to issues of it being

:22:37. > :22:38.Church to issues of it being Church to issues of it being

:22:38. > :22:40.accused of hypocrisy. It is how accused of hypocrisy. It is how

:22:40. > :22:42.accused of hypocrisy. It is how they choose to deal with these

:22:42. > :22:43.they choose to deal with these they choose to deal with these

:22:43. > :22:45.accusations of hypocrisy which will accusations of hypocrisy which will

:22:45. > :22:49.accusations of hypocrisy which will give us some authenticity as we

:22:49. > :22:50.give us some authenticity as we give us some authenticity as we

:22:50. > :22:53.give us some authenticity as we move forward from this. It seems to

:22:53. > :22:55.move forward from this. It seems to move forward from this. It seems to

:22:55. > :22:56.move forward from this. It seems to me that we need to be St, yes,

:22:56. > :22:59.me that we need to be St, yes, me that we need to be St, yes,

:22:59. > :23:01.me that we need to be St, yes, mistakes had been made, but it is

:23:01. > :23:10.mistakes had been made, but it is mistakes had been made, but it is

:23:10. > :23:11.not simply the Church of Scotland's not simply the Church of Scotland's

:23:12. > :23:13.not simply the Church of Scotland's not simply the Church of Scotland's

:23:13. > :23:14.mission to say it is not our mission to say it is not our

:23:14. > :23:16.mission to say it is not our mission to say it is not our

:23:16. > :23:17.mistake, but for us to look at this mistake, but for us to look at this

:23:17. > :23:19.mistake, but for us to look at this as fellow Christians about what we

:23:19. > :23:20.as fellow Christians about what we as fellow Christians about what we

:23:20. > :23:22.as fellow Christians about what we hold dear it to work together to

:23:22. > :23:27.hold dear it to work together to hold dear it to work together to

:23:27. > :23:28.make Scotland a better place. make Scotland a better place.

:23:28. > :23:29.make Scotland a better place. words of the Archbishop seeing the

:23:29. > :23:31.words of the Archbishop seeing the words of the Archbishop seeing the

:23:31. > :23:35.moral authority of the Church may moral authority of the Church may

:23:35. > :23:37.moral authority of the Church may have been dealt the mortal blow?

:23:37. > :23:38.have been dealt the mortal blow? have been dealt the mortal blow?

:23:38. > :23:42.have been dealt the mortal blow? Yes, it comes within the context of

:23:42. > :23:43.Yes, it comes within the context of Yes, it comes within the context of

:23:43. > :23:47.many other challenges. It would be many other challenges. It would be

:23:47. > :23:48.many other challenges. It would be wrong to pretend otherwise. I think

:23:49. > :23:51.wrong to pretend otherwise. I think wrong to pretend otherwise. I think

:23:51. > :23:52.it was right that Archbishop Philip it was right that Archbishop Philip

:23:52. > :23:53.Tartaglia, who preached in Tartaglia, who preached in

:23:53. > :23:55.Tartaglia, who preached in Edinburgh yesterday and today in

:23:56. > :23:57.Edinburgh yesterday and today in Edinburgh yesterday and today in

:23:57. > :23:58.Glasgow, said that. The church Glasgow, said that. The church

:23:58. > :24:00.Glasgow, said that. The church Glasgow, said that. The church

:24:00. > :24:01.leadership as going to have to look leadership as going to have to look

:24:01. > :24:03.leadership as going to have to look leadership as going to have to look

:24:03. > :24:06.hard at where they go from here. hard at where they go from here.

:24:06. > :24:07.hard at where they go from here. hard at where they go from here.

:24:07. > :24:10.Inevitably, there will be E P it Inevitably, there will be E P it

:24:10. > :24:13.Inevitably, there will be E P it Inevitably, there will be E P it

:24:13. > :24:14.got Macro, there will be a period got Macro, there will be a period

:24:14. > :24:15.got Macro, there will be a period got Macro, there will be a period

:24:15. > :24:17.of reflection. I think it will be of reflection. I think it will be

:24:17. > :24:18.of reflection. I think it will be of reflection. I think it will be

:24:18. > :24:19.some time before be see how the some time before be see how the

:24:19. > :24:20.some time before be see how the some time before be see how the

:24:20. > :24:24.Church will not shape its future as Church will not shape its future as

:24:24. > :24:27.Church will not shape its future as Church will not shape its future as

:24:27. > :24:28.it comes out of this. We are also it comes out of this. We are also

:24:28. > :24:32.it comes out of this. We are also joined by Tom French of the

:24:32. > :24:35.joined by Tom French of the Equalities Network. Quite a

:24:35. > :24:37.Equalities Network. Quite a shocking statement yesterday it.

:24:37. > :24:37.shocking statement yesterday it. shocking statement yesterday it.

:24:37. > :24:39.shocking statement yesterday it. What did you feel? There have been

:24:40. > :24:45.What did you feel? There have been accusations of rank hypocrisy

:24:45. > :24:45.accusations of rank hypocrisy accusations of rank hypocrisy

:24:45. > :24:50.levelled against the church. People levelled against the church. People

:24:50. > :24:50.levelled against the church. People will level that charged and there

:24:50. > :24:51.will level that charged and there will level that charged and there

:24:51. > :24:52.is circlet a difference between is circlet a difference between

:24:52. > :24:53.is circlet a difference between what the car and always preaching

:24:53. > :24:55.what the car and always preaching what the car and always preaching

:24:55. > :24:56.what the car and always preaching on one hand and what he was doing,

:24:56. > :24:57.on one hand and what he was doing, on one hand and what he was doing,

:24:57. > :24:58.on one hand and what he was doing, on the other. But I am not

:24:58. > :24:59.on the other. But I am not on the other. But I am not

:25:00. > :25:01.interested in points-scoring, I am interested in points-scoring, I am

:25:01. > :25:02.interested in points-scoring, I am interested in points-scoring, I am

:25:02. > :25:05.interested in how we move for what interested in how we move for what

:25:05. > :25:06.interested in how we move for what interested in how we move for what

:25:06. > :25:07.from this now. I think lesbian and from this now. I think lesbian and

:25:08. > :25:09.from this now. I think lesbian and gay people in Scotland, and many

:25:10. > :25:10.gay people in Scotland, and many gay people in Scotland, and many

:25:10. > :25:13.Catholics, will think that maybe Catholics, will think that maybe

:25:13. > :25:14.Catholics, will think that maybe the Church should shift away their

:25:14. > :25:16.the Church should shift away their the Church should shift away their

:25:16. > :25:18.balance from sexuality and get back balance from sexuality and get back

:25:18. > :25:19.balance from sexuality and get back to other core things which make

:25:19. > :25:21.to other core things which make to other core things which make

:25:21. > :25:30.people want to join the Church, people want to join the Church,

:25:30. > :25:31.people want to join the Church, such as poverty and social justice.

:25:31. > :25:32.such as poverty and social justice. such as poverty and social justice.

:25:32. > :25:37.such as poverty and social justice. Just before we we did it out to

:25:37. > :25:38.Just before we we did it out to Just before we we did it out to

:25:38. > :25:40.Just before we we did it out to that, the MSPs said that there has

:25:40. > :25:41.that, the MSPs said that there has that, the MSPs said that there has

:25:41. > :25:43.been vicious language used against been vicious language used against

:25:43. > :25:45.been vicious language used against been vicious language used against

:25:45. > :25:47.gay people. Are you looking for an gay people. Are you looking for an

:25:47. > :25:47.gay people. Are you looking for an gay people. Are you looking for an

:25:48. > :25:49.apology? No, I do not think it is apology? No, I do not think it is

:25:49. > :25:50.apology? No, I do not think it is apology? No, I do not think it is

:25:50. > :25:52.about that. I think it is about about that. I think it is about

:25:52. > :25:53.about that. I think it is about moving forward. It is about what

:25:53. > :25:55.moving forward. It is about what moving forward. It is about what

:25:55. > :25:56.the Church's position will be in the Church's position will be in

:25:56. > :25:58.the Church's position will be in the Church's position will be in

:25:58. > :25:59.the future. Is it still going to be the future. Is it still going to be

:25:59. > :26:00.the future. Is it still going to be very vocally against the and

:26:00. > :26:01.very vocally against the and very vocally against the and

:26:01. > :26:02.very vocally against the and lesbian people or is it going to

:26:02. > :26:03.lesbian people or is it going to lesbian people or is it going to

:26:03. > :26:05.lesbian people or is it going to focus more than the likes of social

:26:05. > :26:06.focus more than the likes of social focus more than the likes of social

:26:06. > :26:08.justice? Due you think the Catholic justice? Due you think the Catholic

:26:08. > :26:10.justice? Due you think the Catholic justice? Due you think the Catholic

:26:10. > :26:11.Church could shift its focus to the Church could shift its focus to the

:26:11. > :26:18.Church could shift its focus to the likes of social justice and climate

:26:19. > :26:19.likes of social justice and climate likes of social justice and climate

:26:19. > :26:21.likes of social justice and climate change and so on. There is the

:26:21. > :26:23.change and so on. There is the change and so on. There is the

:26:23. > :26:24.distinction to be made of doctrine distinction to be made of doctrine

:26:24. > :26:27.distinction to be made of doctrine distinction to be made of doctrine

:26:27. > :26:30.will claims made by the Church and will claims made by the Church and

:26:30. > :26:32.will claims made by the Church and pastoral claims. It is quite clear

:26:32. > :26:36.pastoral claims. It is quite clear pastoral claims. It is quite clear

:26:36. > :26:37.sometimes that the offices of the sometimes that the offices of the

:26:37. > :26:39.sometimes that the offices of the Church have sometimes emphasise the

:26:39. > :26:42.Church have sometimes emphasise the Church have sometimes emphasise the

:26:42. > :26:44.doctrine and have not gauged doctrine and have not gauged

:26:44. > :26:47.effectively enough or communicated effectively enough or communicated

:26:47. > :26:50.effectively enough or communicated enough their pastoral concern for

:26:50. > :26:53.enough their pastoral concern for supporting other aspects of

:26:53. > :26:54.supporting other aspects of supporting other aspects of

:26:54. > :26:55.humanity. This is a critical point humanity. This is a critical point

:26:55. > :26:56.humanity. This is a critical point humanity. This is a critical point

:26:56. > :26:59.for the Catholic Church, as it is for the Catholic Church, as it is

:26:59. > :27:02.for the Catholic Church, as it is for other Christian churches, there

:27:03. > :27:04.for other Christian churches, there for other Christian churches, there

:27:04. > :27:05.has to be recognition that the has to be recognition that the

:27:05. > :27:09.world is fundamentally fragile. world is fundamentally fragile.

:27:09. > :27:10.world is fundamentally fragile. world is fundamentally fragile.

:27:10. > :27:11.They have not handled as well. They They have not handled as well. They

:27:11. > :27:15.They have not handled as well. They have not handled the pastoral

:27:15. > :27:17.have not handled the pastoral have not handled the pastoral

:27:17. > :27:19.issues well, either. But that does issues well, either. But that does

:27:19. > :27:21.issues well, either. But that does not preclude the necessity to

:27:21. > :27:24.not preclude the necessity to not preclude the necessity to

:27:24. > :27:26.propagate ideal visions of how many propagate ideal visions of how many

:27:26. > :27:27.propagate ideal visions of how many conduct herself. I do not know

:27:27. > :27:27.conduct herself. I do not know conduct herself. I do not know

:27:27. > :27:30.conduct herself. I do not know anybody in my circle he does not

:27:30. > :27:35.anybody in my circle he does not anybody in my circle he does not

:27:35. > :27:37.anybody in my circle he does not know anyone who is not divorced. If

:27:37. > :27:38.know anyone who is not divorced. If know anyone who is not divorced. If

:27:38. > :27:40.know anyone who is not divorced. If know anyone who is not divorced. If

:27:40. > :27:42.I said to them, if I at the time I said to them, if I at the time

:27:42. > :27:44.I said to them, if I at the time I said to them, if I at the time

:27:44. > :27:45.you it ended into marriage, to due you it ended into marriage, to due

:27:45. > :27:55.you it ended into marriage, to due expected to end in failure? Of

:27:55. > :27:59.

:27:59. > :28:01.expected to end in failure? Of Why do you think the Catholic

:28:01. > :28:03.Why do you think the Catholic Church focused on homosexuality,

:28:03. > :28:04.Church focused on homosexuality, Church focused on homosexuality,

:28:04. > :28:05.rather than divorce? Many people rather than divorce? Many people

:28:05. > :28:07.rather than divorce? Many people might be happy with what has

:28:07. > :28:09.might be happy with what has might be happy with what has

:28:09. > :28:10.happened to the Cardinal. happened to the Cardinal.

:28:10. > :28:12.happened to the Cardinal. cannot legislate for people being

:28:12. > :28:13.cannot legislate for people being cannot legislate for people being

:28:13. > :28:17.cannot legislate for people being happy, that is part of their broken

:28:17. > :28:18.happy, that is part of their broken happy, that is part of their broken

:28:18. > :28:19.happy, that is part of their broken this. It seems to me that these

:28:19. > :28:20.this. It seems to me that these this. It seems to me that these

:28:21. > :28:22.things are cyclical. The issue was things are cyclical. The issue was

:28:22. > :28:23.things are cyclical. The issue was in the public space, the Catholic

:28:23. > :28:24.in the public space, the Catholic in the public space, the Catholic

:28:24. > :28:28.Church had a position about that. Church had a position about that.

:28:28. > :28:30.Church had a position about that. They could hardly ignore it. But

:28:30. > :28:31.They could hardly ignore it. But They could hardly ignore it. But

:28:31. > :28:37.the that engagement was cooked well the that engagement was cooked well

:28:37. > :28:38.the that engagement was cooked well is another question. -- whether

:28:38. > :28:38.is another question. -- whether is another question. -- whether

:28:38. > :28:39.that engagement was given a that engagement was given a

:28:39. > :28:40.that engagement was given a Crosswell is another question. But

:28:40. > :28:41.Crosswell is another question. But Crosswell is another question. But

:28:41. > :28:42.Crosswell is another question. But that does not mean they could not

:28:42. > :28:45.that does not mean they could not that does not mean they could not

:28:45. > :28:46.be engaged in public debate. be engaged in public debate.

:28:46. > :28:47.be engaged in public debate. Leydon, do you think they were

:28:47. > :28:49.Leydon, do you think they were Leydon, do you think they were

:28:49. > :28:51.reflecting what ordinary mass cause reflecting what ordinary mass cause

:28:51. > :28:53.reflecting what ordinary mass cause were thinking when hitting out at

:28:53. > :28:56.were thinking when hitting out at were thinking when hitting out at

:28:56. > :28:58.equal marriage? What did ordinary equal marriage? What did ordinary

:28:58. > :29:00.equal marriage? What did ordinary Catholics think? Many people who

:29:00. > :29:04.Catholics think? Many people who are perhaps nominally Catholic,

:29:04. > :29:04.are perhaps nominally Catholic, are perhaps nominally Catholic,

:29:04. > :29:05.perhaps not practising, wanted the perhaps not practising, wanted the

:29:05. > :29:08.perhaps not practising, wanted the perhaps not practising, wanted the

:29:08. > :29:09.issue to go away. It was a very issue to go away. It was a very

:29:09. > :29:11.issue to go away. It was a very difficult issue. But as has just

:29:11. > :29:11.difficult issue. But as has just difficult issue. But as has just

:29:12. > :29:14.been pointed out, these are been pointed out, these are

:29:14. > :29:16.difficult times and difficult difficult times and difficult

:29:16. > :29:18.difficult times and difficult difficult times and difficult

:29:18. > :29:19.issues. It is so important to have issues. It is so important to have

:29:19. > :29:21.issues. It is so important to have ideals. Because if we take that

:29:21. > :29:24.ideals. Because if we take that ideals. Because if we take that

:29:24. > :29:26.away, what have we replacing it away, what have we replacing it

:29:26. > :29:27.with? Essentially, the Catholic with? Essentially, the Catholic

:29:27. > :29:31.with? Essentially, the Catholic with? Essentially, the Catholic

:29:31. > :29:36.Church spoke out and was not alone. Church spoke out and was not alone.

:29:36. > :29:37.There are organisations who There are organisations who

:29:37. > :29:39.There are organisations who essentially are a rainbow coalition,

:29:39. > :29:40.essentially are a rainbow coalition, essentially are a rainbow coalition,

:29:40. > :29:41.essentially are a rainbow coalition, if you like, of people of fates

:29:41. > :29:42.if you like, of people of fates if you like, of people of fates

:29:42. > :29:44.saying this is something they do saying this is something they do

:29:44. > :29:45.saying this is something they do saying this is something they do

:29:45. > :29:48.not believe in. Under a lot of not believe in. Under a lot of

:29:48. > :29:50.discussion about people speaking discussion about people speaking

:29:50. > :29:51.discussion about people speaking out against almost sexual rights. I

:29:51. > :29:52.out against almost sexual rights. I out against almost sexual rights. I

:29:52. > :29:52.do not thanks speaking out for do not thanks speaking out for

:29:53. > :29:55.traditional marriage automatically traditional marriage automatically

:29:55. > :29:57.traditional marriage automatically means you are speaking out against

:29:57. > :29:58.means you are speaking out against means you are speaking out against

:29:58. > :29:59.homosexual rights. It just so homosexual rights. It just so

:29:59. > :30:00.homosexual rights. It just so happens that classes on this

:30:00. > :30:01.happens that classes on this happens that classes on this

:30:01. > :30:03.particular issue and it has been particular issue and it has been

:30:03. > :30:05.particular issue and it has been pointed out there is a difference

:30:05. > :30:06.pointed out there is a difference pointed out there is a difference

:30:06. > :30:08.between a line of doctrine and between a line of doctrine and

:30:08. > :30:09.between a line of doctrine and pastoral care and perhaps that two

:30:09. > :30:10.pastoral care and perhaps that two pastoral care and perhaps that two

:30:10. > :30:12.pastoral care and perhaps that two did not go hand in hand. That is

:30:12. > :30:13.did not go hand in hand. That is did not go hand in hand. That is

:30:13. > :30:14.something that perhaps needs to be something that perhaps needs to be

:30:14. > :30:14.something that perhaps needs to be something that perhaps needs to be

:30:15. > :30:15.looked and when people look at what looked and when people look at what

:30:15. > :30:18.looked and when people look at what looked and when people look at what

:30:18. > :30:19.is happening here in the Church in is happening here in the Church in

:30:19. > :30:20.is happening here in the Church in Scotland. Martin Johnston, many in

:30:20. > :30:21.Scotland. Martin Johnston, many in Scotland. Martin Johnston, many in

:30:21. > :30:22.the Church of Scotland welcomed the Church of Scotland welcomed

:30:22. > :30:24.the Church of Scotland welcomed what the Catholic Church was saying

:30:24. > :30:25.what the Catholic Church was saying what the Catholic Church was saying

:30:25. > :30:28.about equal marriage. And in the about equal marriage. And in the

:30:28. > :30:31.about equal marriage. And in the Church of Scotland, there was maybe

:30:31. > :30:32.Church of Scotland, there was maybe Church of Scotland, there was maybe

:30:32. > :30:33.a strong voice missing? The Church a strong voice missing? The Church

:30:33. > :30:35.a strong voice missing? The Church of Scotland, like every other

:30:35. > :30:36.of Scotland, like every other of Scotland, like every other

:30:36. > :30:38.institution, like every other part institution, like every other part

:30:38. > :30:41.institution, like every other part of Scotland, is struggling with

:30:41. > :30:41.of Scotland, is struggling with of Scotland, is struggling with

:30:41. > :30:44.of Scotland, is struggling with this issue. Tom Wort was right in

:30:44. > :30:45.this issue. Tom Wort was right in this issue. Tom Wort was right in

:30:45. > :30:46.this issue. Tom Wort was right in what he was saying. -- he was right.

:30:46. > :30:49.what he was saying. -- he was right. what he was saying. -- he was right.

:30:49. > :30:50.what he was saying. -- he was right. There is a need to shift the focus

:30:50. > :30:51.There is a need to shift the focus There is a need to shift the focus

:30:51. > :30:52.There is a need to shift the focus and for the churches Together to be

:30:52. > :30:56.and for the churches Together to be and for the churches Together to be

:30:56. > :30:57.focusing on core of things, those focusing on core of things, those

:30:57. > :30:59.focusing on core of things, those focusing on core of things, those

:30:59. > :31:01.that that the heart of the Gospel, that that the heart of the Gospel,

:31:01. > :31:03.that that the heart of the Gospel, about social justice, about how we

:31:03. > :31:04.about social justice, about how we about social justice, about how we

:31:04. > :31:07.treat the poorest and most treat the poorest and most

:31:07. > :31:09.treat the poorest and most marginalised within society. For in

:31:09. > :31:12.marginalised within society. For in marginalised within society. For in

:31:12. > :31:12.that space, the church, every day, that space, the church, every day,

:31:12. > :31:15.that space, the church, every day, in the thousands of acts of

:31:15. > :31:16.in the thousands of acts of in the thousands of acts of

:31:16. > :31:17.kindness, that it is involved in kindness, that it is involved in

:31:17. > :31:19.kindness, that it is involved in and its hundreds of thousands of

:31:19. > :31:21.and its hundreds of thousands of and its hundreds of thousands of

:31:21. > :31:23.members are involved in, there are members are involved in, there are

:31:23. > :31:25.members are involved in, there are the things which continue to give

:31:25. > :31:27.the things which continue to give the things which continue to give

:31:27. > :31:29.the church authenticity in Scotland. the church authenticity in Scotland.

:31:29. > :31:33.the church authenticity in Scotland. Catherine, the menu was speaking to,

:31:33. > :31:34.Catherine, the menu was speaking to, Catherine, the menu was speaking to,

:31:34. > :31:35.the victims or alleged victims of the victims or alleged victims of

:31:35. > :31:36.inappropriate behaviour, what did inappropriate behaviour, what did

:31:36. > :31:38.inappropriate behaviour, what did they have to say about this

:31:38. > :31:43.they have to say about this they have to say about this

:31:43. > :31:44.apparent hypocrisy? One of them apparent hypocrisy? One of them

:31:45. > :31:46.apparent hypocrisy? One of them apparent hypocrisy? One of them

:31:46. > :31:48.said it was not a witch hunt. said it was not a witch hunt.

:31:48. > :31:49.said it was not a witch hunt. Absolutely not. The problem for the

:31:49. > :31:50.Absolutely not. The problem for the Absolutely not. The problem for the

:31:50. > :31:53.charge is of moral authority. We charge is of moral authority. We

:31:53. > :31:54.charge is of moral authority. We will never know when the Catholic,

:31:54. > :31:55.will never know when the Catholic, will never know when the Catholic,

:31:55. > :31:56.senior Catholic clergy speak out senior Catholic clergy speak out

:31:56. > :31:57.senior Catholic clergy speak out about these issues, whether they

:31:57. > :31:59.about these issues, whether they about these issues, whether they

:31:59. > :32:00.are really meaning them. That is are really meaning them. That is

:32:00. > :32:02.are really meaning them. That is the problem for the Catholic Church.

:32:02. > :32:03.the problem for the Catholic Church. the problem for the Catholic Church.

:32:03. > :32:06.the problem for the Catholic Church. We do not know whether this is just

:32:06. > :32:07.We do not know whether this is just We do not know whether this is just

:32:07. > :32:08.the public manifestation or whether the public manifestation or whether

:32:08. > :32:11.the public manifestation or whether what they are actually privately

:32:11. > :32:12.what they are actually privately what they are actually privately

:32:12. > :32:13.believing and practising. That is believing and practising. That is

:32:13. > :32:15.believing and practising. That is the difficulty. For the men

:32:15. > :32:15.the difficulty. For the men the difficulty. For the men

:32:15. > :32:17.involved in this, people forget involved in this, people forget

:32:17. > :32:18.involved in this, people forget just how very difficult this has

:32:18. > :32:19.just how very difficult this has just how very difficult this has

:32:19. > :32:20.been for them, and how courageous been for them, and how courageous

:32:20. > :32:22.been for them, and how courageous been for them, and how courageous

:32:22. > :32:24.they have had to be against an they have had to be against an

:32:24. > :32:25.institution which governs their institution which governs their

:32:25. > :32:26.institution which governs their institution which governs their

:32:26. > :32:26.lives. You do not do that lightly lives. You do not do that lightly

:32:26. > :32:27.lives. You do not do that lightly lives. You do not do that lightly

:32:27. > :32:29.and do not do that if you are and do not do that if you are

:32:29. > :32:31.and do not do that if you are trying to destroy the charge. They

:32:31. > :32:33.trying to destroy the charge. They trying to destroy the charge. They

:32:33. > :32:34.want to build something within the want to build something within the

:32:34. > :32:35.want to build something within the church. -- destroy the church. They

:32:35. > :32:38.church. -- destroy the church. They church. -- destroy the church. They

:32:38. > :32:39.are wanting a new openness and are wanting a new openness and

:32:39. > :32:40.are wanting a new openness and transparency. And one of the

:32:40. > :32:41.transparency. And one of the transparency. And one of the

:32:41. > :32:41.transparency. And one of the reasons it is very important we do

:32:42. > :32:42.reasons it is very important we do reasons it is very important we do

:32:42. > :32:43.not just pretend that Keith O'Brien not just pretend that Keith O'Brien

:32:43. > :32:44.not just pretend that Keith O'Brien not just pretend that Keith O'Brien

:32:44. > :32:47.not just pretend that Keith O'Brien is the only one is that, if you do

:32:47. > :32:48.is the only one is that, if you do is the only one is that, if you do

:32:48. > :32:49.is the only one is that, if you do that, you have this period of focus

:32:49. > :32:50.that, you have this period of focus that, you have this period of focus

:32:50. > :32:51.that, you have this period of focus on that one issue and then we can

:32:51. > :32:51.on that one issue and then we can on that one issue and then we can

:32:51. > :32:52.on that one issue and then we can sweep it under the carpet and say,

:32:53. > :32:54.sweep it under the carpet and say, sweep it under the carpet and say,

:32:54. > :32:55.sweep it under the carpet and say, thank goodness that is gone, we can

:32:55. > :32:56.thank goodness that is gone, we can thank goodness that is gone, we can

:32:56. > :32:57.go back to normal. The Catholic go back to normal. The Catholic

:32:57. > :32:58.go back to normal. The Catholic go back to normal. The Catholic

:32:58. > :33:01.Church cannot go back to normal. It Church cannot go back to normal. It

:33:01. > :33:03.Church cannot go back to normal. It is important it does not. Professor

:33:03. > :33:05.is important it does not. Professor is important it does not. Professor

:33:05. > :33:07.Haldane, just try to recapture that Haldane, just try to recapture that

:33:07. > :33:08.Haldane, just try to recapture that moral authority, which some may

:33:08. > :33:08.moral authority, which some may moral authority, which some may

:33:08. > :33:10.moral authority, which some may have the church did not have, but

:33:10. > :33:11.have the church did not have, but have the church did not have, but

:33:11. > :33:11.try to recapture that moral try to recapture that moral

:33:11. > :33:13.try to recapture that moral authority over the coming weeks,

:33:13. > :33:14.authority over the coming weeks, authority over the coming weeks,

:33:14. > :33:16.authority over the coming weeks, months and years is going to be

:33:16. > :33:17.months and years is going to be months and years is going to be

:33:17. > :33:21.difficult? It will be a tremendous difficult? It will be a tremendous

:33:21. > :33:23.difficult? It will be a tremendous challenge. Caton said, -- captain

:33:23. > :33:24.challenge. Caton said, -- captain challenge. Caton said, -- captain

:33:24. > :33:25.challenge. Caton said, -- captain said, what do we do with any

:33:25. > :33:27.said, what do we do with any said, what do we do with any

:33:27. > :33:29.clergyman that speaks out? We have clergyman that speaks out? We have

:33:29. > :33:30.seen this with different seen this with different

:33:30. > :33:31.professional groups. There have professional groups. There have

:33:31. > :33:35.professional groups. There have been bad journalists, not all of

:33:35. > :33:36.been bad journalists, not all of been bad journalists, not all of

:33:36. > :33:38.them are bad. But politicians and them are bad. But politicians and

:33:38. > :33:39.them are bad. But politicians and them are bad. But politicians and

:33:39. > :33:40.so on. In general, there would be a so on. In general, there would be a

:33:40. > :33:41.so on. In general, there would be a so on. In general, there would be a

:33:41. > :33:43.problem that, as a result of bad problem that, as a result of bad

:33:43. > :33:45.problem that, as a result of bad problems, we simply could not trust

:33:45. > :33:46.problems, we simply could not trust problems, we simply could not trust

:33:46. > :33:47.problems, we simply could not trust the total. This is a more prosaic -

:33:47. > :33:48.the total. This is a more prosaic - the total. This is a more prosaic -

:33:48. > :33:49.the total. This is a more prosaic - - this is a more pervasive issue

:33:49. > :33:52.- this is a more pervasive issue - this is a more pervasive issue

:33:52. > :33:52.about the loss of trust in about the loss of trust in

:33:52. > :33:54.about the loss of trust in about the loss of trust in

:33:54. > :33:56.institutions. What we have to do in institutions. What we have to do in

:33:56. > :34:00.institutions. What we have to do in life is try to exercise discernment

:34:00. > :34:01.life is try to exercise discernment life is try to exercise discernment

:34:01. > :34:02.life is try to exercise discernment and good judgment. If you look at

:34:02. > :34:03.and good judgment. If you look at and good judgment. If you look at

:34:03. > :34:06.these men, and the authenticity of these men, and the authenticity of

:34:06. > :34:08.these men, and the authenticity of what there saying, the example of

:34:08. > :34:09.what there saying, the example of what there saying, the example of

:34:09. > :34:10.what there saying, the example of the force is very telling some ways.

:34:10. > :34:14.the force is very telling some ways. the force is very telling some ways.

:34:14. > :34:15.The phenomenon is exactly the same. The phenomenon is exactly the same.

:34:15. > :34:16.The phenomenon is exactly the same. So what happened is social changes

:34:16. > :34:18.So what happened is social changes So what happened is social changes

:34:19. > :34:21.in society surrounding the church in society surrounding the church

:34:21. > :34:22.in society surrounding the church meant that ideas about lifelong

:34:22. > :34:23.meant that ideas about lifelong meant that ideas about lifelong

:34:23. > :34:24.marriage and so on slowly were marriage and so on slowly were

:34:24. > :34:25.marriage and so on slowly were eroded. The Catholic Church held,

:34:25. > :34:26.eroded. The Catholic Church held, eroded. The Catholic Church held,

:34:26. > :34:30.eroded. The Catholic Church held, and continues to hold, to a certain

:34:30. > :34:30.and continues to hold, to a certain and continues to hold, to a certain

:34:30. > :34:31.and continues to hold, to a certain view, which it clearly is out of

:34:31. > :34:32.view, which it clearly is out of view, which it clearly is out of

:34:32. > :34:34.step with society, and the same step with society, and the same

:34:34. > :34:36.step with society, and the same thing has happened with regard to

:34:36. > :34:38.thing has happened with regard to thing has happened with regard to

:34:38. > :34:40.same-sex relationships. The are two same-sex relationships. The are two

:34:40. > :34:41.possibilities. Possibly three. One possibilities. Possibly three. One

:34:41. > :34:44.possibilities. Possibly three. One possibilities. Possibly three. One

:34:44. > :34:44.is the charge says what it has is the charge says what it has

:34:44. > :34:45.is the charge says what it has always says, two is it abandons

:34:46. > :34:47.always says, two is it abandons always says, two is it abandons

:34:47. > :34:49.always says, two is it abandons what it has said, which it will not

:34:49. > :34:50.what it has said, which it will not what it has said, which it will not

:34:50. > :34:51.what it has said, which it will not what it has said, which it will not

:34:51. > :34:53.do, and three is to work out how it do, and three is to work out how it

:34:53. > :34:54.mediates the relationship between mediates the relationship between

:34:54. > :34:55.mediates the relationship between what it proposes is it its

:34:55. > :34:56.what it proposes is it its what it proposes is it its

:34:57. > :34:58.understanding of the goods of human understanding of the goods of human

:34:58. > :34:59.understanding of the goods of human life and treating the realities

:34:59. > :35:00.life and treating the realities life and treating the realities

:35:01. > :35:02.that the society around it has that the society around it has

:35:02. > :35:03.that the society around it has that the society around it has

:35:03. > :35:04.changed. It has had to do that with changed. It has had to do that with

:35:04. > :35:06.changed. It has had to do that with divorce, still struggles to do that,

:35:06. > :35:07.divorce, still struggles to do that, divorce, still struggles to do that,

:35:07. > :35:08.divorce, still struggles to do that, and had to do that with the

:35:08. > :35:10.and had to do that with the question of same-sex relationships.

:35:10. > :35:11.question of same-sex relationships. question of same-sex relationships.

:35:11. > :35:12.question of same-sex relationships. It is important to see there would

:35:12. > :35:13.It is important to see there would It is important to see there would

:35:13. > :35:17.It is important to see there would be no role for the church if it

:35:17. > :35:17.be no role for the church if it be no role for the church if it

:35:17. > :35:19.simply retreated into the margins simply retreated into the margins

:35:19. > :35:20.simply retreated into the margins of social welfare provision that

:35:20. > :35:26.of social welfare provision that non religious institutions can

:35:26. > :35:27.non religious institutions can non religious institutions can

:35:27. > :35:28.non religious institutions can provide. The idea or -- there is no

:35:28. > :35:29.provide. The idea or -- there is no provide. The idea or -- there is no

:35:29. > :35:31.future for Christianity is simply future for Christianity is simply

:35:31. > :35:31.future for Christianity is simply future for Christianity is simply

:35:31. > :35:33.backing away from what are known as backing away from what are known as

:35:33. > :35:37.backing away from what are known as the heart teachings. Looking at

:35:37. > :35:38.the heart teachings. Looking at moral authority, and your

:35:38. > :35:40.moral authority, and your suggestion in the newspapers

:35:40. > :35:41.suggestion in the newspapers suggestion in the newspapers

:35:41. > :35:44.yesterday is that priests signed up yesterday is that priests signed up

:35:44. > :35:46.yesterday is that priests signed up by our celibacy, with a written

:35:46. > :35:47.by our celibacy, with a written by our celibacy, with a written

:35:47. > :35:48.statement. This has to be cleared statement. This has to be cleared

:35:48. > :35:49.statement. This has to be cleared statement. This has to be cleared

:35:49. > :35:50.up. I came forward with a set of up. I came forward with a set of

:35:50. > :35:51.up. I came forward with a set of proposals some people are reeling

:35:51. > :35:54.proposals some people are reeling proposals some people are reeling

:35:54. > :35:55.from, which are very radical, but from, which are very radical, but

:35:55. > :35:56.from, which are very radical, but from, which are very radical, but

:35:56. > :35:58.not easy for the church. In some not easy for the church. In some

:35:58. > :36:00.not easy for the church. In some ways, they are more challenging,

:36:00. > :36:02.ways, they are more challenging, involving much more profound

:36:02. > :36:03.involving much more profound involving much more profound

:36:03. > :36:04.changes within the church than changes within the church than

:36:04. > :36:07.changes within the church than could be occasioned by this single

:36:07. > :36:08.could be occasioned by this single could be occasioned by this single

:36:08. > :36:12.scandal. The church cannot go back scandal. The church cannot go back

:36:12. > :36:13.scandal. The church cannot go back as if nothing has happened. These

:36:14. > :36:15.as if nothing has happened. These proposals... Under the current

:36:15. > :36:17.proposals... Under the current circumstances, priests are not

:36:17. > :36:17.circumstances, priests are not circumstances, priests are not

:36:17. > :36:18.circumstances, priests are not required to make up by two of

:36:19. > :36:22.required to make up by two of required to make up by two of

:36:22. > :36:23.celibacy. They are making a promise. celibacy. They are making a promise.

:36:23. > :36:26.celibacy. They are making a promise. celibacy. They are making a promise.

:36:26. > :36:27.-- to make a vow of celibacy. One -- to make a vow of celibacy. One

:36:27. > :36:28.-- to make a vow of celibacy. One -- to make a vow of celibacy. One

:36:28. > :36:32.of the things that might be done is of the things that might be done is

:36:32. > :36:33.to face priests individually, to face priests individually,

:36:33. > :36:35.to face priests individually, within the context of a private

:36:35. > :36:35.within the context of a private within the context of a private

:36:35. > :36:37.within the context of a private setting, and ask them if they feel

:36:37. > :36:38.setting, and ask them if they feel setting, and ask them if they feel

:36:38. > :36:39.setting, and ask them if they feel they can continue in the Prix sud

:36:39. > :36:40.they can continue in the Prix sud they can continue in the Prix sud

:36:40. > :36:42.given the requirement of celibacy given the requirement of celibacy

:36:42. > :36:43.given the requirement of celibacy that they have undertaken. Thus

:36:43. > :36:44.that they have undertaken. Thus that they have undertaken. Thus

:36:44. > :36:47.continue in the priesthood. If they continue in the priesthood. If they

:36:47. > :36:48.continue in the priesthood. If they say they cannot, the church should

:36:48. > :36:49.say they cannot, the church should say they cannot, the church should

:36:49. > :36:52.say they cannot, the church should assist them to find a way out of

:36:52. > :36:54.assist them to find a way out of assist them to find a way out of

:36:54. > :36:55.the Church. The trouble with that, the Church. The trouble with that,

:36:55. > :36:56.the Church. The trouble with that, if you had asked Cardinal Keith

:36:56. > :36:57.if you had asked Cardinal Keith if you had asked Cardinal Keith

:36:57. > :36:58.O'Brien two years ago, are you O'Brien two years ago, are you

:36:58. > :37:00.O'Brien two years ago, are you struggling with celibacy, and would

:37:00. > :37:01.struggling with celibacy, and would struggling with celibacy, and would

:37:01. > :37:02.struggling with celibacy, and would you like to leave the church? What

:37:02. > :37:03.you like to leave the church? What you like to leave the church? What

:37:03. > :37:04.you like to leave the church? What do you think he would have said?

:37:04. > :37:05.do you think he would have said? do you think he would have said?

:37:05. > :37:06.do you think he would have said? Part of the problem of that is, if

:37:06. > :37:07.Part of the problem of that is, if Part of the problem of that is, if

:37:07. > :37:08.Part of the problem of that is, if this sort of thing I am talking

:37:08. > :37:10.this sort of thing I am talking this sort of thing I am talking

:37:10. > :37:11.this sort of thing I am talking about was done in earlier, we would

:37:11. > :37:12.about was done in earlier, we would about was done in earlier, we would

:37:12. > :37:13.about was done in earlier, we would not be in the situation. I am not

:37:14. > :37:15.not be in the situation. I am not not be in the situation. I am not

:37:15. > :37:18.talking about any sort of public talking about any sort of public

:37:18. > :37:19.talking about any sort of public holding to account, but an internal,

:37:19. > :37:20.holding to account, but an internal, holding to account, but an internal,

:37:20. > :37:22.private and confidential forum in private and confidential forum in

:37:22. > :37:25.private and confidential forum in which people can do this. Terrible

:37:25. > :37:26.which people can do this. Terrible which people can do this. Terrible

:37:26. > :37:27.which people can do this. Terrible as this is, they will be many

:37:27. > :37:28.as this is, they will be many as this is, they will be many

:37:28. > :37:29.as this is, they will be many clergy who would feel relief in a

:37:29. > :37:32.clergy who would feel relief in a clergy who would feel relief in a

:37:32. > :37:33.clergy who would feel relief in a way. An issue that, as you say,

:37:33. > :37:34.way. An issue that, as you say, way. An issue that, as you say,

:37:34. > :37:35.way. An issue that, as you say, that is the largest two. It is

:37:35. > :37:36.that is the largest two. It is that is the largest two. It is

:37:36. > :37:37.being brought before us and they being brought before us and they

:37:37. > :37:39.being brought before us and they will have to think about their

:37:40. > :37:41.will have to think about their will have to think about their

:37:41. > :37:42.situation. And away, we can begin situation. And away, we can begin

:37:42. > :37:44.situation. And away, we can begin to have the kind of conversation

:37:44. > :37:47.to have the kind of conversation to have the kind of conversation

:37:47. > :37:47.that is long overdue. Tom French, that is long overdue. Tom French,

:37:48. > :37:48.that is long overdue. Tom French, do you believe that church had

:37:48. > :37:49.do you believe that church had do you believe that church had

:37:49. > :37:51.moral authority before this? That moral authority before this? That

:37:51. > :37:52.moral authority before this? That moral authority before this? That

:37:52. > :37:53.is the issue. The church has a lot is the issue. The church has a lot

:37:53. > :37:54.is the issue. The church has a lot is the issue. The church has a lot

:37:54. > :37:56.of very good things. It does a lot of very good things. It does a lot

:37:56. > :37:58.of very good things. It does a lot of very good things. It does a lot

:37:58. > :37:59.of good things. But the problem is, of good things. But the problem is,

:37:59. > :38:03.of good things. But the problem is, of good things. But the problem is,

:38:03. > :38:04.because of the focus it has put one because of the focus it has put one

:38:04. > :38:06.because of the focus it has put one attacking issues like gay equality,

:38:06. > :38:07.attacking issues like gay equality, attacking issues like gay equality,

:38:07. > :38:09.that has been subsumed. The church that has been subsumed. The church

:38:09. > :38:10.that has been subsumed. The church has led campaigns against much of

:38:10. > :38:11.has led campaigns against much of has led campaigns against much of

:38:11. > :38:13.the steps towards equality we have the steps towards equality we have

:38:13. > :38:14.the steps towards equality we have the steps towards equality we have

:38:14. > :38:15.seen over the last 15 years, the seen over the last 15 years, the

:38:15. > :38:17.seen over the last 15 years, the repeal of Section 28, civil

:38:17. > :38:19.repeal of Section 28, civil repeal of Section 28, civil

:38:19. > :38:20.partnerships, and so on. Recently, partnerships, and so on. Recently,

:38:20. > :38:20.partnerships, and so on. Recently, partnerships, and so on. Recently,

:38:20. > :38:21.we have seen them spend tens of we have seen them spend tens of

:38:21. > :38:22.we have seen them spend tens of we have seen them spend tens of

:38:22. > :38:23.thousands of pounds on the issue of thousands of pounds on the issue of

:38:24. > :38:26.thousands of pounds on the issue of same-sex marriage. A lot of

:38:26. > :38:27.same-sex marriage. A lot of ordinary Catholics, many supporting

:38:27. > :38:28.ordinary Catholics, many supporting ordinary Catholics, many supporting

:38:28. > :38:30.seen six marriage, will wonder what seen six marriage, will wonder what

:38:30. > :38:32.seen six marriage, will wonder what their money is going towards. Is

:38:32. > :38:33.their money is going towards. Is their money is going towards. Is

:38:33. > :38:35.this really what they joined the this really what they joined the

:38:35. > :38:36.this really what they joined the church to take forward? James

:38:36. > :38:40.church to take forward? James Conroy, younger people watching

:38:40. > :38:41.Conroy, younger people watching Conroy, younger people watching

:38:41. > :38:45.this, watching the sea date evolve this, watching the sea date evolve

:38:45. > :38:45.in Catholic schools, perhaps in Catholic schools, perhaps

:38:46. > :38:46.in Catholic schools, perhaps younger priests, what will be the

:38:46. > :38:51.younger priests, what will be the younger priests, what will be the

:38:51. > :38:52.making of this? -- watching this making of this? -- watching this

:38:52. > :38:53.making of this? -- watching this debate evolve. I think they will

:38:53. > :38:55.debate evolve. I think they will debate evolve. I think they will

:38:55. > :38:57.display what the population in display what the population in

:38:57. > :38:59.display what the population in general display, which is confusion.

:38:59. > :39:00.general display, which is confusion. general display, which is confusion.

:39:00. > :39:04.Some incomprehension. But by the Some incomprehension. But by the

:39:04. > :39:04.Some incomprehension. But by the same token, you have to remember

:39:04. > :39:06.same token, you have to remember same token, you have to remember

:39:06. > :39:07.that young people in Catholic that young people in Catholic

:39:07. > :39:08.that young people in Catholic schools are largely like young

:39:08. > :39:09.schools are largely like young people throughout Scotland, with

:39:09. > :39:10.people throughout Scotland, with people throughout Scotland, with

:39:10. > :39:11.people throughout Scotland, with the same kinds of access to the

:39:11. > :39:13.the same kinds of access to the the same kinds of access to the

:39:13. > :39:15.media and same kind of cultural media and same kind of cultural

:39:15. > :39:16.media and same kind of cultural media and same kind of cultural

:39:16. > :39:18.forces, the same sets of ideas, the forces, the same sets of ideas, the

:39:18. > :39:20.forces, the same sets of ideas, the same clothes, music, same social

:39:20. > :39:23.same clothes, music, same social same clothes, music, same social

:39:23. > :39:25.practices. They are not unique. But practices. They are not unique. But

:39:25. > :39:27.practices. They are not unique. But practices. They are not unique. But

:39:27. > :39:28.what Catholic schools have to do is what Catholic schools have to do is

:39:28. > :39:31.what Catholic schools have to do is help those young people who are

:39:32. > :39:33.help those young people who are help those young people who are

:39:33. > :39:35.members of the Catholic Church to members of the Catholic Church to

:39:35. > :39:38.address with subtlety and address with subtlety and

:39:38. > :39:39.sophistication these very difficult sophistication these very difficult

:39:39. > :39:40.sophistication these very difficult issues, because John is right. It

:39:40. > :39:41.issues, because John is right. It issues, because John is right. It

:39:41. > :39:42.issues, because John is right. It is not that the church is going to

:39:42. > :39:44.is not that the church is going to is not that the church is going to

:39:44. > :39:45.say tomorrow, we were all wrong say tomorrow, we were all wrong

:39:45. > :39:46.say tomorrow, we were all wrong say tomorrow, we were all wrong

:39:46. > :39:47.about this and if only we had about this and if only we had

:39:47. > :39:47.about this and if only we had about this and if only we had

:39:47. > :39:51.realised we were wrong we would not realised we were wrong we would not

:39:51. > :39:52.realised we were wrong we would not have got into this. No, they

:39:52. > :39:53.have got into this. No, they have got into this. No, they

:39:53. > :39:55.believe seven things about human believe seven things about human

:39:55. > :39:56.beings and relationships. Whether beings and relationships. Whether

:39:56. > :39:58.beings and relationships. Whether they are ultimately, in the great

:39:58. > :39:59.they are ultimately, in the great they are ultimately, in the great

:39:59. > :39:59.scheme of things, vital rank is scheme of things, vital rank is

:39:59. > :40:04.scheme of things, vital rank is secondary. This is what they

:40:04. > :40:05.secondary. This is what they secondary. This is what they

:40:05. > :40:06.believe. Asking someone to turn believe. Asking someone to turn

:40:06. > :40:08.believe. Asking someone to turn believe. Asking someone to turn

:40:08. > :40:08.their beliefs upside down is not an their beliefs upside down is not an

:40:08. > :40:09.their beliefs upside down is not an their beliefs upside down is not an

:40:09. > :40:10.option, either in a school or the option, either in a school or the

:40:10. > :40:11.option, either in a school or the church, so schools will have to

:40:12. > :40:14.church, so schools will have to church, so schools will have to

:40:14. > :40:15.deal with it, its complexity and deal with it, its complexity and

:40:15. > :40:17.deal with it, its complexity and deal with it, its complexity and

:40:17. > :40:18.deal with it with subtlety and try deal with it with subtlety and try

:40:18. > :40:20.deal with it with subtlety and try to educate people who are largely

:40:20. > :40:24.to educate people who are largely be religiously literate, making

:40:24. > :40:26.be religiously literate, making them more religiously literate.

:40:26. > :40:27.them more religiously literate. them more religiously literate.

:40:27. > :40:28.Many Catholics excited about the Many Catholics excited about the

:40:28. > :40:29.Many Catholics excited about the Many Catholics excited about the

:40:29. > :40:30.election of a new pope. What kind election of a new pope. What kind

:40:30. > :40:31.election of a new pope. What kind election of a new pope. What kind

:40:31. > :40:33.election of a new pope. What kind of man does that have to be to take

:40:33. > :40:35.of man does that have to be to take of man does that have to be to take

:40:35. > :40:36.the church forward? Some people the church forward? Some people

:40:36. > :40:37.the church forward? Some people spoke about hoping for a liberal

:40:37. > :40:39.spoke about hoping for a liberal spoke about hoping for a liberal

:40:39. > :40:41.man. That is probably rather man. That is probably rather

:40:41. > :40:41.man. That is probably rather man. That is probably rather

:40:41. > :40:43.unlikely. And also not how I would unlikely. And also not how I would

:40:43. > :40:44.unlikely. And also not how I would unlikely. And also not how I would

:40:44. > :40:45.view the church in terms of liberal view the church in terms of liberal

:40:45. > :40:46.view the church in terms of liberal and conservative. We are one

:40:46. > :40:48.and conservative. We are one and conservative. We are one

:40:48. > :40:50.universal church. I do not speak universal church. I do not speak

:40:50. > :40:51.universal church. I do not speak universal church. I do not speak

:40:51. > :40:52.for the Catholic Church, but for an for the Catholic Church, but for an

:40:52. > :40:54.independent newspaper that follows independent newspaper that follows

:40:55. > :40:57.independent newspaper that follows closely what the church does. The

:40:57. > :40:59.closely what the church does. The closely what the church does. The

:40:59. > :40:59.closely what the church does. The closely what the church does. The

:40:59. > :41:00.hope of a new pope would not be to hope of a new pope would not be to

:41:00. > :41:02.hope of a new pope would not be to rush from these issues, but to

:41:02. > :41:06.rush from these issues, but to rush from these issues, but to

:41:06. > :41:08.confront these issues head on. And confront these issues head on. And

:41:08. > :41:09.confront these issues head on. And confront these issues head on. And

:41:09. > :41:10.whoever takes that roll on, we will whoever takes that roll on, we will

:41:10. > :41:11.whoever takes that roll on, we will whoever takes that roll on, we will

:41:11. > :41:12.keep them in a off thoughts and keep them in a off thoughts and

:41:12. > :41:14.prayers, because these are prayers, because these are

:41:14. > :41:15.prayers, because these are difficult times. -- keep them in

:41:15. > :41:16.difficult times. -- keep them in difficult times. -- keep them in

:41:16. > :41:17.our thoughts and prayers. The our thoughts and prayers. The

:41:17. > :41:18.our thoughts and prayers. The person should be chosen for their

:41:19. > :41:22.person should be chosen for their merits, the spirituality,

:41:22. > :41:24.merits, the spirituality, leadership, but not along

:41:24. > :41:26.leadership, but not along geographical or political lines.

:41:26. > :41:27.geographical or political lines. geographical or political lines.

:41:27. > :41:28.Ultimately, some people do not Ultimately, some people do not

:41:28. > :41:30.Ultimately, some people do not understand what happens in the

:41:30. > :41:31.understand what happens in the understand what happens in the

:41:31. > :41:32.conclave. There is a misconception conclave. There is a misconception

:41:32. > :41:34.conclave. There is a misconception that the Holy spirit chooses the

:41:35. > :41:35.that the Holy spirit chooses the that the Holy spirit chooses the

:41:35. > :41:36.that the Holy spirit chooses the new pope, but I hope the Holy

:41:36. > :41:37.new pope, but I hope the Holy new pope, but I hope the Holy

:41:37. > :41:38.spirit offers guidance to the spirit offers guidance to the

:41:38. > :41:41.spirit offers guidance to the cardinals who are in this difficult

:41:41. > :41:41.cardinals who are in this difficult cardinals who are in this difficult

:41:41. > :41:42.cardinals who are in this difficult position. I hope, when the new pope

:41:42. > :41:44.position. I hope, when the new pope position. I hope, when the new pope

:41:44. > :41:46.is installed, Scotland will be very is installed, Scotland will be very

:41:46. > :41:47.is installed, Scotland will be very much one of the first priorities,

:41:47. > :41:48.much one of the first priorities, much one of the first priorities,

:41:48. > :41:50.much one of the first priorities, because we have a number of diocese

:41:50. > :41:52.because we have a number of diocese here without Vatican appointed

:41:52. > :41:53.here without Vatican appointed here without Vatican appointed

:41:53. > :41:54.spiritual leaders. That has been spiritual leaders. That has been

:41:54. > :41:56.spiritual leaders. That has been spiritual leaders. That has been

:41:56. > :41:57.going on for too long. John Haldane, going on for too long. John Haldane,

:41:57. > :41:59.going on for too long. John Haldane, going on for too long. John Haldane,

:41:59. > :42:03.that is the key point. Will there that is the key point. Will there

:42:03. > :42:04.that is the key point. Will there that is the key point. Will there

:42:04. > :42:05.be reform in Scotland? Will we ever be reform in Scotland? Will we ever

:42:05. > :42:15.be reform in Scotland? Will we ever see another cardinal again in

:42:15. > :42:25.

:42:25. > :42:27.I see this as an opportunity. A I see this as an opportunity. A

:42:27. > :42:28.I see this as an opportunity. A finger want to think very seriously

:42:28. > :42:29.finger want to think very seriously finger want to think very seriously

:42:29. > :42:31.finger want to think very seriously as to be whether they want to fill

:42:31. > :42:35.as to be whether they want to fill as to be whether they want to fill

:42:35. > :42:36.as to be whether they want to fill all these up again. We are any new

:42:36. > :42:37.all these up again. We are any new all these up again. We are any new

:42:37. > :42:38.century and particularly in view of century and particularly in view of

:42:38. > :42:40.century and particularly in view of century and particularly in view of

:42:40. > :42:41.this, but not just because of that, this, but not just because of that,

:42:41. > :42:43.this, but not just because of that, this, but not just because of that,

:42:43. > :42:44.I think we will have to think very I think we will have to think very

:42:44. > :42:48.I think we will have to think very seriously about how it will

:42:48. > :42:49.seriously about how it will seriously about how it will

:42:49. > :42:50.structure itself. As regards the structure itself. As regards the

:42:50. > :42:52.structure itself. As regards the structure itself. As regards the

:42:52. > :42:53.new election of a new Pope, the new election of a new Pope, the

:42:53. > :42:56.new election of a new Pope, the conclave has the very challenging

:42:56. > :42:57.conclave has the very challenging conclave has the very challenging

:42:57. > :42:58.decisions. Whoever is elected, I decisions. Whoever is elected, I

:42:58. > :43:01.decisions. Whoever is elected, I think you will see diversification

:43:01. > :43:09.think you will see diversification think you will see diversification

:43:09. > :43:11.of the different rules of the of the different rules of the

:43:11. > :43:12.of the different rules of the Office. I think we are beginning

:43:12. > :43:14.Office. I think we are beginning Office. I think we are beginning

:43:14. > :43:15.Office. I think we are beginning the new fees, I suspect, in the

:43:15. > :43:17.the new fees, I suspect, in the the new fees, I suspect, in the

:43:17. > :43:19.history of the Cartholic Church. history of the Cartholic Church.

:43:19. > :43:19.history of the Cartholic Church. history of the Cartholic Church.

:43:20. > :43:21.What about the future of the Church What about the future of the Church

:43:21. > :43:30.What about the future of the Church of Scotland as regards as strong

:43:30. > :43:31.of Scotland as regards as strong of Scotland as regards as strong

:43:31. > :43:33.leadership. The Moderator, it was leadership. The Moderator, it was

:43:33. > :43:37.leadership. The Moderator, it was felt, could not compete with the

:43:38. > :43:39.felt, could not compete with the felt, could not compete with the

:43:39. > :43:41.felt, could not compete with the Cardinal in that arena. I thing one

:43:41. > :43:42.Cardinal in that arena. I thing one Cardinal in that arena. I thing one

:43:42. > :43:43.Cardinal in that arena. I thing one of the things that the last these

:43:43. > :43:44.of the things that the last these of the things that the last these

:43:44. > :43:45.of the things that the last these have shown us is that if you talk

:43:45. > :43:46.have shown us is that if you talk have shown us is that if you talk

:43:46. > :43:48.have shown us is that if you talk about the church and place at all

:43:48. > :43:50.about the church and place at all about the church and place at all

:43:50. > :43:54.and one person, other than cheeses, and one person, other than cheeses,

:43:54. > :43:56.and one person, other than cheeses, and one person, other than cheeses,

:43:56. > :44:01.then we have a problem. -- other then we have a problem. -- other

:44:01. > :44:01.then we have a problem. -- other then we have a problem. -- other

:44:01. > :44:03.than a Jesus Christ. I think we than a Jesus Christ. I think we

:44:03. > :44:03.than a Jesus Christ. I think we than a Jesus Christ. I think we

:44:04. > :44:07.want to say we have the moderator want to say we have the moderator

:44:07. > :44:08.want to say we have the moderator want to say we have the moderator

:44:08. > :44:09.who is first among equals and whose who is first among equals and whose

:44:09. > :44:11.who is first among equals and whose life is about moderating the life

:44:11. > :44:12.life is about moderating the life life is about moderating the life

:44:12. > :44:13.life is about moderating the life of the Church, not this is actually

:44:13. > :44:14.of the Church, not this is actually of the Church, not this is actually

:44:14. > :44:16.of the Church, not this is actually a be leading it, is actually a

:44:16. > :44:20.a be leading it, is actually a a be leading it, is actually a

:44:20. > :44:21.model which might make things more model which might make things more

:44:21. > :44:22.model which might make things more difficult for you, and two, because

:44:22. > :44:24.difficult for you, and two, because difficult for you, and two, because

:44:24. > :44:25.difficult for you, and two, because you would want the one person to

:44:25. > :44:26.you would want the one person to you would want the one person to

:44:26. > :44:28.represent and speak on behalf of represent and speak on behalf of

:44:28. > :44:30.represent and speak on behalf of the Church of Scotland, when in

:44:31. > :44:32.the Church of Scotland, when in the Church of Scotland, when in

:44:32. > :44:34.actual fact, people we speak on actual fact, people we speak on

:44:34. > :44:36.actual fact, people we speak on behalf of the Church of Scotland

:44:36. > :44:37.behalf of the Church of Scotland behalf of the Church of Scotland

:44:37. > :44:39.behalf of the Church of Scotland are its 500,000 members and the do

:44:39. > :44:40.are its 500,000 members and the do are its 500,000 members and the do

:44:40. > :44:41.are its 500,000 members and the do that the end, D out, in the wavy

:44:41. > :44:46.that the end, D out, in the wavy that the end, D out, in the wavy

:44:46. > :44:47.that the end, D out, in the wavy seek to live their lives. It is

:44:47. > :44:49.seek to live their lives. It is interesting Katharina that one

:44:49. > :44:50.interesting Katharina that one interesting Katharina that one

:44:50. > :44:51.person coming out of church said person coming out of church said

:44:51. > :44:55.person coming out of church said person coming out of church said

:44:55. > :44:56.their faith was in got and not in their faith was in got and not in

:44:56. > :44:58.their faith was in got and not in Bishop's. How do you think they

:44:58. > :44:59.Bishop's. How do you think they Bishop's. How do you think they

:44:59. > :45:00.Bishop's. How do you think they will cope with this? And how will

:45:00. > :45:01.will cope with this? And how will will cope with this? And how will

:45:01. > :45:06.remain you had been interviewing remain you had been interviewing

:45:06. > :45:07.remain you had been interviewing remain you had been interviewing

:45:07. > :45:08.cope with this in the future? cope with this in the future?

:45:08. > :45:10.cope with this in the future? thing, when you look at the

:45:10. > :45:11.thing, when you look at the thing, when you look at the

:45:11. > :45:12.thing, when you look at the strength of the Church, it is in

:45:12. > :45:16.strength of the Church, it is in strength of the Church, it is in

:45:16. > :45:17.the ordinary people. I think when the ordinary people. I think when

:45:17. > :45:18.the ordinary people. I think when the ordinary people. I think when

:45:18. > :45:19.you see a crisis created because it you see a crisis created because it

:45:19. > :45:20.you see a crisis created because it you see a crisis created because it

:45:20. > :45:22.is the senior figure and it is the is the senior figure and it is the

:45:22. > :45:24.is the senior figure and it is the cardinal, I think it is that

:45:24. > :45:25.cardinal, I think it is that cardinal, I think it is that

:45:25. > :45:27.hierarchy which has created a lot hierarchy which has created a lot

:45:28. > :45:28.hierarchy which has created a lot of the difficulties within the

:45:28. > :45:31.of the difficulties within the of the difficulties within the

:45:31. > :45:32.Cartholic Church I think there was Cartholic Church I think there was

:45:32. > :45:33.Cartholic Church I think there was a very important works in the

:45:33. > :45:37.a very important works in the Archbishop Philip Tartaglia sermon,

:45:37. > :45:37.Archbishop Philip Tartaglia sermon, Archbishop Philip Tartaglia sermon,

:45:37. > :45:39.Archbishop Philip Tartaglia sermon, which was humble. The one thing I

:45:39. > :45:40.which was humble. The one thing I which was humble. The one thing I

:45:40. > :45:42.which was humble. The one thing I would like to see from the new Pope

:45:42. > :45:44.would like to see from the new Pope would like to see from the new Pope

:45:44. > :45:45.was not just humility but was was not just humility but was

:45:45. > :45:46.concentrating not on the concentrating not on the

:45:46. > :45:48.concentrating not on the institution but on the people who

:45:48. > :45:49.institution but on the people who institution but on the people who

:45:49. > :45:50.institution but on the people who make up the institution. It is the

:45:50. > :45:51.make up the institution. It is the make up the institution. It is the

:45:51. > :45:54.make up the institution. It is the people we have seen who have been

:45:54. > :45:55.people we have seen who have been people we have seen who have been

:45:55. > :45:56.harmed and wrong by the Catholic harmed and wrong by the Catholic

:45:56. > :45:57.harmed and wrong by the Catholic harmed and wrong by the Catholic

:45:57. > :45:58.Church and I am thinking of the Church and I am thinking of the

:45:58. > :46:01.Church and I am thinking of the many thousands of children being

:46:01. > :46:02.many thousands of children being many thousands of children being

:46:02. > :46:03.many thousands of children being abused, I do not see Cardinal Keith

:46:03. > :46:04.abused, I do not see Cardinal Keith abused, I do not see Cardinal Keith

:46:04. > :46:05.O'Brien been a more serious crisis O'Brien been a more serious crisis

:46:05. > :46:06.O'Brien been a more serious crisis O'Brien been a more serious crisis

:46:06. > :46:08.than that of the children. I think than that of the children. I think

:46:08. > :46:09.than that of the children. I think than that of the children. I think

:46:09. > :46:10.that has been the crisis in the that has been the crisis in the

:46:10. > :46:11.that has been the crisis in the that has been the crisis in the

:46:11. > :46:14.Catholic Church for a long time. It Catholic Church for a long time. It

:46:14. > :46:14.Catholic Church for a long time. It Catholic Church for a long time. It

:46:14. > :46:15.is the Church's desire to cover up is the Church's desire to cover up

:46:15. > :46:16.is the Church's desire to cover up and protect itself rather than the

:46:16. > :46:17.and protect itself rather than the and protect itself rather than the

:46:17. > :46:19.and protect itself rather than the people which has led to so many

:46:19. > :46:20.people which has led to so many people which has led to so many

:46:20. > :46:21.people which has led to so many problems. If the new ball was to do

:46:21. > :46:22.problems. If the new ball was to do problems. If the new ball was to do

:46:22. > :46:27.problems. If the new ball was to do anything, I would hope he would do

:46:27. > :46:33.anything, I would hope he would do anything, I would hope he would do

:46:33. > :46:34.anything, I would hope he would do that. -- the new Pope. I think the

:46:34. > :46:36.that. -- the new Pope. I think the that. -- the new Pope. I think the

:46:36. > :46:37.that. -- the new Pope. I think the real crisis has been the issue of

:46:37. > :46:39.real crisis has been the issue of real crisis has been the issue of

:46:39. > :46:41.real crisis has been the issue of child abuse. It is not just any

:46:41. > :46:43.child abuse. It is not just any child abuse. It is not just any

:46:43. > :46:51.Catholic Church, but a cultural Catholic Church, but a cultural

:46:51. > :46:52.Catholic Church, but a cultural thing in wider society. In

:46:52. > :46:54.thing in wider society. In thing in wider society. In

:46:54. > :46:58.institutions up a cross the board, institutions up a cross the board,

:46:58. > :46:58.institutions up a cross the board, the idea to protect the institution

:46:59. > :47:00.the idea to protect the institution the idea to protect the institution

:47:01. > :47:02.the idea to protect the institution as a flop at exercise. The final

:47:02. > :47:03.as a flop at exercise. The final as a flop at exercise. The final

:47:03. > :47:06.as a flop at exercise. The final work, are you will fall for the

:47:06. > :47:07.work, are you will fall for the work, are you will fall for the

:47:07. > :47:09.work, are you will fall for the future? The area will fall. We love

:47:09. > :47:14.future? The area will fall. We love future? The area will fall. We love

:47:14. > :47:15.future? The area will fall. We love and hope and we are living faith.

:47:15. > :47:16.and hope and we are living faith. and hope and we are living faith.

:47:16. > :47:18.The one thing that people will The one thing that people will

:47:18. > :47:19.always have his faith. always have his faith.

:47:19. > :47:20.always have his faith. always have his faith.

:47:20. > :47:21.That is all we have time for this That is all we have time for this

:47:21. > :47:22.That is all we have time for this evening. Gordon Brewer will be here

:47:22. > :47:23.evening. Gordon Brewer will be here evening. Gordon Brewer will be here

:47:23. > :47:24.with the programme tomorrow at the with the programme tomorrow at the

:47:24. > :47:25.with the programme tomorrow at the usual time of eleven o'clock. From