0:00:01 > 0:00:08something about it by listening the public -- by buying British.
0:00:08 > 0:00:12On Newsnight Scotland tonight, silence for Baroness Thatcher. For
0:00:12 > 0:00:16the first time since Churchill 's funeral, Big Ben will fall silent as
0:00:16 > 0:00:20a tribute to Britain's first woman Prime Minister. But the Scottish
0:00:20 > 0:00:27Greens will not be silenced. Their debate on Mrs Thatcher's legacy will
0:00:27 > 0:00:31go ahead on the day of her funeral. Good evening. Within the last half
0:00:31 > 0:00:35an hour, the House of Commons has voted to halt Wednesday 's prime
0:00:35 > 0:00:40ministers questions to allow MPs to attend the funeral. In the Scottish
0:00:40 > 0:00:44Parliament it will be business as usual. The Greens say they are
0:00:44 > 0:00:49pushing ahead with their debate examining Lady Thatcher's policies.
0:00:49 > 0:00:54In a moment we'll be looking at different responses to her death,
0:00:54 > 0:00:59but first, Andrew Black hears from one family about their feelings on
0:00:59 > 0:01:06Baroness Thatcher's life and death. There were ugly scenes this
0:01:06 > 0:01:11morning... For this family, memories of Margaret Thatcher's Britain go
0:01:11 > 0:01:14back a long way. Husband Alan was an engineer at a
0:01:14 > 0:01:18colliery in Stirlingshire, where miners became the first in the
0:01:18 > 0:01:23country to go on strike in 1984. His family struggle was captured on
0:01:23 > 0:01:27camera. The family summer holiday has been cancelled, and Alan and
0:01:27 > 0:01:33Linda have not been together since the strike began.
0:01:33 > 0:01:37After the pit close, Alan moved on, or so he thought. Since she's passed
0:01:37 > 0:01:46away, the past few days, I have thought about it all and all of the
0:01:46 > 0:01:53memories come back. There are some very ugly memories. She was a very
0:01:53 > 0:02:01divisive woman. She was very hard, very single-minded, some people
0:02:01 > 0:02:06could admire that, I could not. Of course, that view is not held by
0:02:06 > 0:02:14everybody. In London today, and rehearsal of Baroness Thatcher 's
0:02:14 > 0:02:19funeral procession from Westminster to Saint Pauls Cathedral. For the
0:02:19 > 0:02:23first time since Sir Winston Churchill's funeral in 1965, the
0:02:23 > 0:02:30chimes of Big Ben will fall silent. At the Scottish Parliament, one
0:02:30 > 0:02:34group refusing to keep quiet is the Greens, who will use their one day
0:02:34 > 0:02:38of holy Rood debating time to discuss Lady Thatcher's legacy. The
0:02:39 > 0:02:42Conservatives say it is not appropriate. I am very disappointed
0:02:42 > 0:02:45that the Green party have decided to have a debate while the funeral is
0:02:45 > 0:02:49taking place. I think it is discourteous and
0:02:49 > 0:02:53inappropriate, and I think they should withdraw it. Both the Tories
0:02:53 > 0:02:58and the Liberal Democrats say the debate should be held on a different
0:02:58 > 0:03:03day, but Green MSP Patrick Harvey is not for turning. This is not
0:03:03 > 0:03:07intended to be a personal slight. would be perfectly happy if Margaret
0:03:07 > 0:03:13Thatcher was alive and well in her �3000 per night sweet. But
0:03:13 > 0:03:22Thatcherism is dead. Celebrations like these and downloading of
0:03:22 > 0:03:26Dingdong, The Witch Is Dead have offended many people. In the age of
0:03:26 > 0:03:3024-hour news, we have become used to seeing morning on a mass scale. Only
0:03:30 > 0:03:34last month tens of thousands of people grieve the loss of
0:03:34 > 0:03:39Venezuelans hugely controversial leader will stop and these
0:03:39 > 0:03:45remarkable pictures from North Korea, when the so called great
0:03:45 > 0:03:48leader Kim Jong Il died. So is there an appropriate way to act when a
0:03:48 > 0:03:53national figure dies? Have the anti-Thatcher protesters broke and
0:03:53 > 0:04:03some taboo is surrounding death and respect, or are harking back to a
0:04:03 > 0:04:07tradition of protest? Last word to Alan, the former mine worker.
0:04:07 > 0:04:14as the world was concerned, a lot of people had a lot of admiration for
0:04:14 > 0:04:21Margaret Thatcher. I find it quite hard to come to terms with that
0:04:21 > 0:04:27because I was at a different end of the spectrum. Did I celebrate when
0:04:28 > 0:04:37she passed away? No. Well I have a drink or two when she is buried?
0:04:38 > 0:04:38
0:04:38 > 0:04:42Possibly. That report from Andrew Black. I am
0:04:42 > 0:04:50joined now by Brian Monteith, the former Conservative MSP, and writer
0:04:50 > 0:04:53Stephen Reicher, Professor Of Psychology At St Andrews University,
0:04:53 > 0:05:00and from Edinburgh we have the commentator Joyce Macmillan who
0:05:00 > 0:05:04joined us on the programme last Monday. Good evening. First of all,
0:05:04 > 0:05:08Brian Monteith, should the debate by the Scottish Greens be cancelled or
0:05:08 > 0:05:12do they have a democratic right to speak freely? Of course, the Greens
0:05:12 > 0:05:18have a democratic right to speak freely and it is for them to decide
0:05:18 > 0:05:24what to debate during their own time and that is Wednesday. But I
0:05:24 > 0:05:28understand that an offer has been made by the SNP to swap time with
0:05:28 > 0:05:32them for Government time so that they could move it to a different
0:05:32 > 0:05:37date. Nobody is saying they should not discuss the subject, just simply
0:05:37 > 0:05:42that it seems rather insensitive to have it on that day. Frankly, I
0:05:42 > 0:05:45think it is juvenile. This student politics. I cannot imagine that if
0:05:45 > 0:05:50Robin Harper was still the leader of the greens this is the behaviour we
0:05:50 > 0:05:54would have seen. To be honest, it does not sound like minds will be
0:05:54 > 0:06:00changed by tomorrow morning. Do you think they will be changed at the
0:06:00 > 0:06:05last-minute? Identity. I think only real influence would be if the
0:06:05 > 0:06:11presiding officer really tried hard to say that it does not look
0:06:11 > 0:06:15particularly clever and there is a way where we still have the debate
0:06:15 > 0:06:21at a less sensitive time. If that is listened to then perhaps there would
0:06:21 > 0:06:24be a change of heart. I just don't think it makes us look good. Joyce
0:06:24 > 0:06:30Macmillan, the Liberal Democrats are also calling for a postponement. Is
0:06:30 > 0:06:34it right that it goes ahead on the morning of her funeral when
0:06:34 > 0:06:38conservatives may wish to watch it on television? I think they have a
0:06:38 > 0:06:41perfect right to do it. I personally would not have chosen to do
0:06:41 > 0:06:45something that is clearly a kind of response to Margaret Thatcher 's
0:06:45 > 0:06:50ideas at the actual moment of her funeral because it makes it look as
0:06:50 > 0:06:57if you are trying to show something of this respect, even if that is not
0:06:58 > 0:07:01what is particularly intended. So I would not have chosen to do that. I
0:07:01 > 0:07:05must say, that is about the limit of my willingness to join in this kind
0:07:05 > 0:07:10of display of compulsory morning about Margaret Thatcher. I do not
0:07:10 > 0:07:15think it is wise, but I do not think it is wrong. Stephen Reicher,
0:07:15 > 0:07:20talking about this compulsory morning, we have been watching a
0:07:20 > 0:07:24week of this and this ought to have this debate at this particular
0:07:24 > 0:07:29time, we have been watching the reaction, what is your assessment of
0:07:29 > 0:07:37the week and had people have reacted? Well, I think in many ways
0:07:37 > 0:07:39what is going on not a reflection is that what is going on is not a
0:07:39 > 0:07:45reflection of what we think of Margaret Thatcher but what we think
0:07:45 > 0:07:49of ourselves. Do we want to be British, or Scottish, or do we want
0:07:49 > 0:07:52to distance ourselves from it? The one fact that we all agree on is
0:07:52 > 0:07:56that you cannot separate Thatcher from Thatcherism and those who talk
0:07:56 > 0:08:00of paying their respects and those have been celebrating have been
0:08:00 > 0:08:04celebrating the vision of Britain which he created. They say she has
0:08:04 > 0:08:09saved Britain, but what that speaks to is a particular notion of what is
0:08:09 > 0:08:12important, what is to be valued, who we are and who we should be. So it
0:08:12 > 0:08:19seems to me that whether you are celebrating or whether you are
0:08:19 > 0:08:22dancing on the grave, that your and Thatcherism are one and the same.
0:08:22 > 0:08:25That is an interesting point. Brian, do you feel that
0:08:25 > 0:08:29anti-Thatcher feeling is more aimed at the Government and the
0:08:29 > 0:08:36establishment and the economy of the 1980s rather than Margaret Thatcher
0:08:36 > 0:08:40herself? That it transcends Margaret Thatcher, the woman? You might be
0:08:40 > 0:08:45able to think that weren't the case that so many people celebrating that
0:08:45 > 0:08:50we see in George Square and Trafalgar Square were in their 50s
0:08:50 > 0:08:56and had full should for her or experience. But so many of them were
0:08:56 > 0:09:01clearly teenagers or in their 20s and were not even voting or even
0:09:01 > 0:09:06born at the time. So this is actually a fight, at Battle, over
0:09:06 > 0:09:12the ideology of what Thatcherism is and what it stands for. It is, in a
0:09:12 > 0:09:15sense, trying to capture the history and find out what she did means. So
0:09:15 > 0:09:19it's about either creating or destroying myths, so it will
0:09:19 > 0:09:26continue for a good number of years yet, as Lady Thatcher's papers
0:09:26 > 0:09:36become available every year Appenzell 2020, we will begin to
0:09:36 > 0:09:41
0:09:41 > 0:09:51find out more of the detail. Some of the myths and got a round will be
0:09:51 > 0:10:08
0:10:08 > 0:10:18exploded. It makes perfect sense. To that extent the youth makes the
0:10:18 > 0:10:20
0:10:20 > 0:10:26point precisely. This is not about the past. It uses the past. The
0:10:26 > 0:10:36protests are about mythmaking, but so is the funeral. So is silencing
0:10:36 > 0:10:38
0:10:38 > 0:10:46Big Ben. You have two opposed forms of mythmaking. An argument about who
0:10:46 > 0:10:54we are, what values we care about. Brian Monteith, you are shaking your
0:10:54 > 0:10:59head. You can have a fight about Smith but nobody was dancing on the
0:10:59 > 0:11:09grave of Harold Wilson, yet he closed more pets than Margaret
0:11:09 > 0:11:13
0:11:13 > 0:11:20Thatcher. # more coal mines - - more coal mines. They do not know the
0:11:20 > 0:11:30history. They do not know the facts. Joyce Macmillan, we are stealing in
0:11:30 > 0:11:35this debate about the impact of Thatcherism. What does this mean to
0:11:35 > 0:11:41you, given that there is a grieving family at the centre of all this?
0:11:41 > 0:11:47There is a grieving family. I am struggling to understand why, as a
0:11:47 > 0:11:54family, they are going along with this. This is an extraordinary
0:11:54 > 0:12:02display of state mourning of a very partisan leader who describes
0:12:02 > 0:12:08millions of her fellow countrymen as the enemy within. We now have a
0:12:09 > 0:12:12society with much less job security. The very generation that
0:12:13 > 0:12:16Brian Monteith says it should not be demonstrating are paying a big price
0:12:16 > 0:12:24for this. They cannot even get a free university education any
0:12:24 > 0:12:29longer. It seems to me that it is a very strange way for a family to
0:12:29 > 0:12:36celebrate our personal loss bash to go along with this massive, and I
0:12:36 > 0:12:40think very tasteless political show. If there was any person close to the
0:12:40 > 0:12:42present government to have any respect for the unity of the UK as a
0:12:42 > 0:12:47country, and for the feelings of those who did not support Margo
0:12:47 > 0:12:55Thatcher, then we would not be seeing a funeral on this scale. We
0:12:55 > 0:13:02would be seen at dignified funeral. I think it was Tony Blair's
0:13:02 > 0:13:09government that introduced tuition fees. They adopted a lot of
0:13:09 > 0:13:13Thatcherite ideology. The fact that they were a Labour government is
0:13:13 > 0:13:20neither here nor there. The point about the funeral that has been made
0:13:20 > 0:13:24is about the magnitude. It is going to happen in St Paul's Cathedral.
0:13:24 > 0:13:32The cough and will be on a gun carriage treat in the union flag. Is
0:13:32 > 0:13:37this right is to map who we admit to the national campaign says something
0:13:37 > 0:13:46about who we are and what is important to us. The question of
0:13:46 > 0:13:52whether we should admit Margaret Thatcher to the national campaign is
0:13:52 > 0:13:57a political question. It is not a question of respect or manners. It
0:13:57 > 0:14:02is a political question about how we see ourselves. The way in which
0:14:02 > 0:14:10groups in nations behave is very much a function of how we see our
0:14:11 > 0:14:14identities and our values. What are the priorities we want to pursue?
0:14:14 > 0:14:20The question is whether the priorities that Margaret Thatcher
0:14:20 > 0:14:24put forward are ones that he wants to see in the future. I could give
0:14:24 > 0:14:28you my personal opinion, but that is not the point. The point is that
0:14:28 > 0:14:32this is a political act with political consequences and therefore
0:14:32 > 0:14:41it is quite right that it is debated. Just briefly on that point
0:14:41 > 0:14:51- imported figures such as Nelson, and Churchill. We always struggle
0:14:51 > 0:14:54
0:14:54 > 0:14:59over our identities. It is a matter of defining what we should
0:14:59 > 0:15:03prioritise or not. There are certain figures that we would all admit to
0:15:04 > 0:15:10the national campaign. Then we argue over their meaning. We argue over
0:15:10 > 0:15:12what their true nature was. There are some individuals who we are
0:15:12 > 0:15:19divided over whether we should invite them into the national
0:15:19 > 0:15:24campaign. We know what Margaret Thatcher was. She was clear about
0:15:24 > 0:15:31it. Do we want to admit that into the standard record or don't we?
0:15:31 > 0:15:37That is why there is such an issue about this. A highly political
0:15:37 > 0:15:43question. Margaret Thatcher was divisive in life. She is divisive in
0:15:43 > 0:15:49death will stop is it right to have a funeral on this magnitude? She was
0:15:49 > 0:15:55divisive to the extent that she was decisive. She took decisions that
0:15:55 > 0:16:05other politicians had refused to take. That is why some of them were
0:16:05 > 0:16:10
0:16:10 > 0:16:13so painful. She was the first woman Prime Minister. She was the longest
0:16:13 > 0:16:17serving peacetime Prime Minister. There are a number of yardsticks
0:16:17 > 0:16:27there that one could say makes it right. I am uncomfortable about the
0:16:27 > 0:16:30
0:16:30 > 0:16:34cost of it. I think that is rather unfortunate. It would have been
0:16:34 > 0:16:38proper to say there would be public subscription for it, because I for
0:16:38 > 0:16:42one would have been happy to make a contribution. I am sure they would
0:16:42 > 0:16:47have been many people thankful for what Margaret Thatcher did who would
0:16:47 > 0:16:54want to make a contribution. But should it be of this magnitude? From
0:16:54 > 0:16:59my point of view, yes, but many make disagree with me, and have the right
0:16:59 > 0:17:09to demonstrate their feelings about that. Joyce Macmillan I am sure you
0:17:09 > 0:17:19will not agree with that, but she was the first woman Prime Minister.
0:17:19 > 0:17:22
0:17:22 > 0:17:25Tony Blair won three elections. The extent of my admiration for Margaret
0:17:25 > 0:17:30Thatcher is that she succeeded in a profession that was male dominated.
0:17:30 > 0:17:40But you would have to be a fantasist to see that she did match for their
0:17:40 > 0:17:51
0:17:51 > 0:17:54cause of women's participation in politics. Margaret Thatcher was not
0:17:54 > 0:17:59slightly interested in that. She did nothing to help the ordinarily women
0:17:59 > 0:18:09of this country. Now the reductions that the government are making are
0:18:09 > 0:18:12
0:18:12 > 0:18:18falling so disproportionately. Monteith, last words to you.
0:18:18 > 0:18:25some people find it so uncomfortable is that Thatcherism lives. We see
0:18:25 > 0:18:30this in the politics of the SNP and Labour it is received wisdom.
0:18:30 > 0:18:38Margaret Thatcher achieved something that other politicians do not. She
0:18:38 > 0:18:42changed things. She reverse Labour policies. To the extent that Labour
0:18:42 > 0:18:47could not reverse them when they got in. We will have to leave it there.
0:18:47 > 0:18:55Thank you for joining me. That gains debate is the same day as the
0:18:55 > 0:19:05funeral, but after the funeral. A quick look at the headlines will
0:19:05 > 0:19:17
0:19:18 > 0:19:23stop - -. Some strong winds over the next 24
0:19:23 > 0:19:33Some strong winds over Heavy rain in the North of Scotland. Staying down
0:19:33 > 0:19:38and damp. There will be a slice of sunshine for the afternoon. Still
0:19:38 > 0:19:43some rain for North West Scotland. Through the central lowlands at the
0:19:43 > 0:19:53rain should be patchy and light. Some gusty winds to the East of the
0:19:53 > 0:19:55
0:19:55 > 0:20:03Pennines. Thicker cloud further South. Patchy light rain or drizzle
0:20:03 > 0:20:12on the English Channel. Cornwall and Devon may see brightness at times.
0:20:12 > 0:20:17Wheels fine and dry. For Tuesday there will be some sunshine. It is
0:20:17 > 0:20:23to the North and the South of the country that we have more rain. On