0:00:09 > 0:00:11devastated by yesterday's attacks. Tonight on Newsnight Scotland: Are
0:00:11 > 0:00:14universal benefits any longer affordable or desirable?
0:00:14 > 0:00:16Alex Salmond says Scotland is a "something for something" society.
0:00:16 > 0:00:19That's a dig at his Labour opponent Johann Lamont, who's questioned
0:00:19 > 0:00:23universal benefits like free bus passes and prescriptions. Which of
0:00:23 > 0:00:26them is right? Good evening. Alex Salmond tells the
0:00:26 > 0:00:30STUC that universal benefits are safe with him. The Scottish
0:00:30 > 0:00:33Parliament debates, and votes in favour of the same idea. You may
0:00:33 > 0:00:36think that's that - but the future of welfare and benefits remains
0:00:36 > 0:00:46highly contentious. In a moment we'll hear from the politicians, but
0:00:46 > 0:00:48
0:00:48 > 0:00:55People in Scotland enjoy the kind of benefits that many others in the
0:00:55 > 0:01:00rest of the UK do not get. Free prescriptions, free education, free
0:01:00 > 0:01:06eye tests and free care and bus travel for the elderly. Of course
0:01:06 > 0:01:12they are not actually free, they need to be funded. By the taxpayer.
0:01:12 > 0:01:15Addressing Scotland's union leaders in Perth today, Alex Salmond
0:01:15 > 0:01:20restated his government's commitment to universal benefits. Benefits like
0:01:20 > 0:01:28free personal care for the elderly, and the reassurance that gets people
0:01:28 > 0:01:33but they will not be exposed in the infirmity, these are not free goods
0:01:33 > 0:01:37in the sense that these people do not contribute. People have
0:01:37 > 0:01:47contributed and young people will contribute. That is part of a
0:01:47 > 0:01:48
0:01:48 > 0:01:54something for something society. Johanne Lamont ignited the debate.
0:01:54 > 0:02:00Alex Salmond is quick to point out to the high levels of welfare in
0:02:00 > 0:02:03Scandinavia, but those universal benefits are paid for by high levels
0:02:03 > 0:02:12of taxation. Scotland cannot be the only something for something country
0:02:12 > 0:02:16in the world. SNP ministers branded the exercise cuts commission, but
0:02:16 > 0:02:21Johann Lamont's intervention was welcomed at the time by the former
0:02:21 > 0:02:25head of the public spending watchdog. The affordability has to
0:02:25 > 0:02:35be questioned, and every pound that goes on free services for bus passes
0:02:35 > 0:02:40
0:02:40 > 0:02:46for well of older people is �1 that Today in the Scottish Parliament,
0:02:46 > 0:02:51MSP is again clashed on the issue of universal services.
0:02:51 > 0:02:57It is presented as a golden principle but has never been
0:02:57 > 0:03:02breached. And only the SNP can protect it. But other parties
0:03:02 > 0:03:07support universal services in many areas including the NHS, schools and
0:03:07 > 0:03:12many other areas. We have to target resources carefully. We repeat our
0:03:12 > 0:03:18request once again to the Scottish Government, particularly in summing
0:03:19 > 0:03:22up, while why were they not give us the data to have the debate? This
0:03:22 > 0:03:30debate of universal versus targeted, good versus evil, is
0:03:30 > 0:03:36simply a huge diversionary target four tactic from what is going on,
0:03:36 > 0:03:41which is the hard truth about our ageing population. Despite the
0:03:41 > 0:03:49criticism, Parliament's has backed the policy. The result of the vote
0:03:49 > 0:03:54and motion in the name of John Swinney is yes, 62, no, 48. But amid
0:03:54 > 0:03:58the outcry, are people now expecting more clarity on the future of the
0:03:59 > 0:04:03services? One of the problems Johann Lamont faces is that having raised
0:04:03 > 0:04:07the possibility of charging for some of these iconic Lee free public
0:04:07 > 0:04:11services without going into any details of what she has in mind, she
0:04:11 > 0:04:17has enabled the SNP to paint the most lyric possible picture of what
0:04:17 > 0:04:22she might have in mind. I think in terms of public reaction, that is
0:04:22 > 0:04:30what is important. The idea of free universal services for all is not as
0:04:30 > 0:04:34popular as the SNP seem to think. Only 20% of people were found to
0:04:34 > 0:04:39necessarily believe that no students at all should be paying tuition
0:04:39 > 0:04:43fees. With UK welfare reform is kicking in, the SNP is keener than
0:04:43 > 0:04:49ever to protect Scots from it describes as damaging cuts, pitting
0:04:49 > 0:04:52hard-pressed families. But is that a vote winner? The SNP has been
0:04:52 > 0:04:58persuading the argument that you would not have to have things like
0:04:58 > 0:05:04the bedroom taxed, if Scotland were to be independent. So far there is
0:05:04 > 0:05:09no sign in the opinion polls but that argument has moved support from
0:05:09 > 0:05:14independence at all. With the referendum not happening
0:05:14 > 0:05:20until next September, it may be some time before we get detailed
0:05:20 > 0:05:25policies. In the meantime, the debate over who gets what and how
0:05:25 > 0:05:27much it costs continues. I'm joined now from Edinburgh by
0:05:27 > 0:05:29Labour's Malcolm Chisholm, and by Conservative finance spokesman Gavin
0:05:29 > 0:05:39Brown. Here in Glasgow is the SNP's
0:05:39 > 0:05:45Christine Grahame. Malcolm Chisholm, do you think
0:05:45 > 0:05:49Johann Lamont was right to raise this issue of Scotland becoming a
0:05:49 > 0:05:51something for nothing country, and to suggest that some of the
0:05:52 > 0:06:01universal benefits which are there at the moment should be at least
0:06:02 > 0:06:04
0:06:05 > 0:06:10reviewed? She was talking about the SNP's wish to match Scandinavia, but
0:06:10 > 0:06:17the reality is that this is a false distinction. We have always had a
0:06:17 > 0:06:27mixture of universal and targeted services. I don't think Labour needs
0:06:27 > 0:06:27
0:06:27 > 0:06:32lectures on universal services. We set up the post-war welfare state.
0:06:32 > 0:06:36But Johann Lamont was questioning these. Of course we should be
0:06:36 > 0:06:39debating and discussing whether these need to be modified. We are
0:06:39 > 0:06:48merely following the advice of the two commissions that John Swinney
0:06:48 > 0:06:52himself set up, and having a discussion about it. We have not
0:06:52 > 0:06:57come to any conclusions. But it is quite dishonest for the SNP to say
0:06:57 > 0:07:01that they support universalism and we support targeted services. When I
0:07:01 > 0:07:05was Minister for Housing, every older person got free central
0:07:05 > 0:07:10heating. Now it is means tested. I got a letter today saying it is
0:07:10 > 0:07:14going to be even more severely means tested. So the Scottish Government
0:07:14 > 0:07:21targets services when it wants to, and has universal services when it
0:07:21 > 0:07:27wants to. So we need to sit down, have a sensible discussion, and stop
0:07:27 > 0:07:33regarding the issue as a political football and a referendum football.
0:07:33 > 0:07:38Let me test you with a couple of the questions that Johann Lamont raised.
0:07:38 > 0:07:44This is from the speech. What is progressive about the chief
0:07:44 > 0:07:49executive on �100,000 a year not paying for his or her prescription?
0:07:49 > 0:07:55There is a debate about prescription charges. Where in that debate would
0:07:55 > 0:08:03you be? Nobody is questioning that the NHS should be universal, but
0:08:03 > 0:08:08there has always been certain parts... So do you support
0:08:08 > 0:08:13reintroducing them? You have to look at it within the context of the
0:08:13 > 0:08:16financial situation. Of course I support free prescription charges,
0:08:16 > 0:08:23but we are going to have very hard financial circumstances over the
0:08:23 > 0:08:27next decade. This again is not me, this is Johann
0:08:27 > 0:08:32Lamont. What is progressive about judges not paying tuition fees for
0:08:32 > 0:08:39their children, when many unemployed people cannot find college places?
0:08:39 > 0:08:46think she was pointing to a serious issue, but if the result of that is
0:08:46 > 0:08:56that problem people, less well off people, are severely penalised, then
0:08:56 > 0:09:27
0:09:27 > 0:09:33there is a real policy choice and Let's try one more question. What
0:09:33 > 0:09:41is progressive about a Chief Executive on �100,000 per year?
0:09:41 > 0:09:45When for example, 80,000 college places have disappeared? Some
0:09:45 > 0:09:51people just fall into the position where they would not be earning
0:09:51 > 0:09:55enough money and would have to pay for prescription charges. But in
0:09:55 > 0:10:02fact on the evidence of the committee, just 5% of people pay
0:10:02 > 0:10:07for prescriptions and systems for people with certain diseases could
0:10:07 > 0:10:14not be extended. The evidence was it was a waste of time doing this
0:10:14 > 0:10:185%. It was hard to administer and it was costly. Just get rid of it.
0:10:18 > 0:10:24And that was for people earning a modest about her money, being taken
0:10:24 > 0:10:29out of prescriptions. And again, the question has been raised about
0:10:29 > 0:10:34free bus pass is for rich people. Everybody in society is
0:10:34 > 0:10:39experiencing problems. Look at the council cuts. The Scottish
0:10:39 > 0:10:44Government has to work within a fixed budget. It cannot overspend.
0:10:44 > 0:10:48The choices it has made about what is universal and concessionary, I
0:10:48 > 0:10:57have fully supported. Three bus services for rich people are more
0:10:57 > 0:11:01important? Let's start with rich people, I think that is an easy
0:11:01 > 0:11:07example. But take the example of people means tested just above the
0:11:07 > 0:11:12barrier and having to start paying for transport. That is more Pent --
0:11:12 > 0:11:17that is more terrible than people not getting into college? Let me
0:11:17 > 0:11:23finish with the value of the concessionary bus pass. People are
0:11:23 > 0:11:28actually physically more active, psychologically better and socially
0:11:28 > 0:11:31interacting and... Debt with me, and a preventative spend for
0:11:31 > 0:11:40psychological issues for the elderly, you are getting your money
0:11:40 > 0:11:44back. What Johanne Lomond was on about was that it was a good idea
0:11:44 > 0:11:50but you have got a question of the fixed budget. Why is it more
0:11:50 > 0:11:55important to give rich people free bus pass is than college places?
0:11:55 > 0:12:00That is the choice you have made. Choices are always made and some
0:12:00 > 0:12:09people will disagree. A choice has been made in Scotland that we will
0:12:09 > 0:12:14not charge �9,000 for people to gauge the University... Gavin, you
0:12:14 > 0:12:19would love to abolish some of these universal benefits. It is not about
0:12:19 > 0:12:22abolition. It is about looking at which ones can be adapted and
0:12:22 > 0:12:27modified and to look at the fact that we have got less money
0:12:27 > 0:12:35available. And we are facing a demographic challenge. Look at
0:12:35 > 0:12:40concessionary travel. Robert Black was previously quoted as saying
0:12:40 > 0:12:45that you could say the �34 million a year if you did not give free bus
0:12:45 > 0:12:50pass is to people above be age of 60 that were working. What about
0:12:50 > 0:12:58free care for the elderly? think that is a more difficult
0:12:58 > 0:13:03topic. Co what about tuition fees? What we have looked at consistently
0:13:03 > 0:13:08is that at the moment we have got a lack of an evidence-based. We can
0:13:08 > 0:13:14see the benefits and the cost. But the government needs to look at all
0:13:14 > 0:13:18of these benefits broken down by category in the next 10 years. And
0:13:18 > 0:13:23along with that, what is the analysis of the benefits of each of
0:13:23 > 0:13:30them? Then we can compare the cost and benefit against other potential
0:13:30 > 0:13:38policy choices, like a disadvantage with nursery places. And with that
0:13:38 > 0:13:44in place we can make decisions. Both Labour and the SNP have been
0:13:44 > 0:13:49screaming about Gavin Brown's welfare reforms. One benefit
0:13:49 > 0:13:55modified was child benefit. Were you against that? I think it was
0:13:56 > 0:14:03very important and the wrong decision. What about the universal
0:14:03 > 0:14:11benefit? Let me just get back to this. This was a benefit with the
0:14:11 > 0:14:17most uptake paid to the mother and it was a 98 % uptake. It was one of
0:14:17 > 0:14:24these benefits in fact already paid for by the rest of us through taxes
0:14:24 > 0:14:31and redistributed. I think it has earned its way. It was we
0:14:31 > 0:14:39distributed through tax. -- redistributed. They are universal.
0:14:39 > 0:14:48It was an excellent Emma Baird. It was a substantial up to eight --
0:14:48 > 0:14:54benefit. You and Christine Grahams appear to be in a sort of
0:14:54 > 0:15:03competition to fulfil your leader's forecast. Let me testy with another
0:15:03 > 0:15:07one. -- test you. You have criticised that so called bedroom
0:15:07 > 0:15:11tax and I know Gavin would take issue with that title. Is that
0:15:11 > 0:15:19wrong and if it is why did your leader not appear to think it was
0:15:19 > 0:15:24from? Ed Miliband has not opposed it. There has been a massive
0:15:24 > 0:15:29campaign against it. You have got a massive campaign but you have not
0:15:29 > 0:15:35opposed it? We are opposed to it. That is not what Ed Miliband has
0:15:35 > 0:15:40said. I am disagreeing with him a. When we look at what is happening
0:15:40 > 0:15:47in Westminster, in terms of our debate, I support universal child
0:15:47 > 0:15:51benefit. But the fact of the matter is, the suffering that is coming
0:15:51 > 0:15:57from welfare reforms is actually an attack on targeted benefits which
0:15:57 > 0:16:03is a. I have made at the start. They are as important as universal
0:16:03 > 0:16:09benefit. The bedroom tax is affecting poor people. I feel
0:16:09 > 0:16:14strongly and we have got a massive campaign against the bedroom tax.
0:16:14 > 0:16:19All right. And are you against all of the other welfare reforms Iain
0:16:19 > 0:16:25Duncan Smith is introducing? Nobody is saying that we should not look
0:16:25 > 0:16:31at that. I do not know anybody that is saying that. But we object to
0:16:31 > 0:16:38the scale of the changes. The bedroom tax is completely... Which
0:16:38 > 0:16:44bits of the welfare reforms would you support? We are against the
0:16:44 > 0:16:49bedroom tax. We know that you are against it. We are completely
0:16:49 > 0:16:55opposed to this... Was do you support? I think the problem with
0:16:55 > 0:17:00the general reforms is that they are not fully thought out. They are
0:17:00 > 0:17:03aiming at the most vulnerable. Disabled people will have to be
0:17:03 > 0:17:11reviewed every three months. Considering that this is somebody
0:17:11 > 0:17:16that has given thousands... understand it is controversial.
0:17:16 > 0:17:21it is appalling. It is appalling and the fact that it is more than
0:17:21 > 0:17:2850 % being tested, it they are found to be ineligible... It I know
0:17:28 > 0:17:36that people will appeal. For what? That they can go to work. That is
0:17:36 > 0:17:43at about 60 %. But it is still affecting thousands of people.
0:17:43 > 0:17:47People that appeal over 60 % --, over 60 % are successful and they
0:17:48 > 0:17:53are told to appeal by people assessing them which is appalling.
0:17:53 > 0:18:03But that still means that 20 I % of the welfare bill in terms of
0:18:03 > 0:18:03
0:18:03 > 0:18:09claimants is not justified. -- 25%. People that appeal are being
0:18:09 > 0:18:15successful. It is appalling that more than 60 % are successful. I
0:18:15 > 0:18:24have had constituents with benefits withdrawn on a paper exercise. They
0:18:24 > 0:18:29have not presented medical exercise and been examined personally.
0:18:29 > 0:18:35do you support this so called bedroom tax? It seems to have just
0:18:35 > 0:18:42been handed to your opponents and it is like a stick to beat you over
0:18:42 > 0:18:49the head with. They have opposed every single piece of welfare
0:18:49 > 0:18:54reform put forward so far. Even with all the reforms put forward,
0:18:54 > 0:19:00according to the Office for budget responsibility, it will be at �180
0:19:00 > 0:19:10billion out of the 720 billion spent by the UK Government. Next it
0:19:10 > 0:19:12
0:19:12 > 0:19:18will be 100 ACT and then next year, 186. -- 182 and Ben, 186. And now
0:19:18 > 0:19:23the front pages, starting with the Scotsman... That is the boy that
0:19:23 > 0:19:33died in the Boston bombing. And the biggest increase in house prices in
0:19:33 > 0:19:38
0:19:38 > 0:19:44six years. I will be back tomorrow. Some more windy weather in the next
0:19:44 > 0:19:48couple of days and some strong wind on Wednesday in the north and west.
0:19:48 > 0:19:54Rain again and Northern Ireland and Scotland will start with the worst
0:19:54 > 0:20:00conditions. That will stay until the afternoon. Some showers and
0:20:00 > 0:20:05temperatures at around 12 degrees. Rain in parts of Scotland with a
0:20:05 > 0:20:10strong southerly wind. Temperatures getting up to 11. It could be quite
0:20:10 > 0:20:15heavy in Galloway. Also affecting Cumbria but further south, much
0:20:15 > 0:20:20more dry. Sunshine, in Yorkshire, Lincolnshire and the Midlands.
0:20:20 > 0:20:25Temperatures could get up to 20 degrees. A chance of showers but
0:20:25 > 0:20:32many places missing them and staying dry. Cloud in south-west
0:20:32 > 0:20:35England. In Wales, it is wet around Cardigan Bay and further inland,
0:20:35 > 0:20:41dry and sunshine. Temperatures eight little bit above average
0:20:41 > 0:20:46despite strong wind. Dropping back on Thursday, more typical
0:20:46 > 0:20:52temperatures but a mixture of sunshine and showers. Showers on