0:00:02 > 0:00:04
0:00:04 > 0:00:06Tonight, on Newsnight Scotland. At her Anglican funeral in London,
0:00:06 > 0:00:16Margaret Thatcher's memorable address to the Church of Scotland
0:00:16 > 0:00:26
0:00:26 > 0:00:32is recalled. And all her paths are We'll speak to one minister who was
0:00:32 > 0:00:34at the General Assembly meeting that day, 25 years ago.
0:00:34 > 0:00:37And, congratulations Mr Swinney - new jobs announced, unemployment
0:00:38 > 0:00:43down, economic growth up, but why is it happening and can anyone take
0:00:43 > 0:00:46the credit? Good evening. It was a State
0:00:46 > 0:00:48funeral in all but name and a deeply Christian funeral in every
0:00:48 > 0:00:51sense. In the course of it the Bishop of
0:00:51 > 0:00:54London recalled the day, a quarter of a century ago, when Margaret
0:00:54 > 0:00:56Thatcher came to Edinburgh to explain to the Church of Scotland
0:00:56 > 0:00:59how the gospels shaped her political thinking.
0:00:59 > 0:01:09The Sermon on the Mound, as it was dubbed, was controversial then and
0:01:09 > 0:01:33
0:01:33 > 0:01:43We come to this cathedral today to remember before God Margaret Hilda
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0:01:58 > 0:02:05Have I discovered joy within myself or am I still looking for it in
0:02:05 > 0:02:09externals, outside myself? Margaret Thatcher had a sense of this which
0:02:09 > 0:02:17she express in her address to the General Assembly of the Church of
0:02:17 > 0:02:22Scotland when she said, "I leave you with the earnest hope that may
0:02:22 > 0:02:32we all come nearer ." May we all come nearer to that other country
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0:02:54 > 0:02:56whose ways are ways of gentleness I'm joined now by the Reverend
0:02:56 > 0:03:01Johnston Mackay, a former head of BBC Scotland Religious Programmes,
0:03:01 > 0:03:09who was at that General Assembly meeting 25 years ago. What was your
0:03:09 > 0:03:15memory of it? My memory of it is of the General Assembly which is a
0:03:15 > 0:03:21very courtious body being extremely courteous in listening to what Mrs
0:03:21 > 0:03:25Thatcher, as she then was, said. I suspect two-thirds of those who
0:03:25 > 0:03:30were present, a would have disagrade with her, b would have
0:03:30 > 0:03:37voted against her. They gave her a round of applause, didn't they at
0:03:37 > 0:03:42the end? Well...The mist making and why do we have these rituals,
0:03:42 > 0:03:48there has been myth making about that event, hasn't there? The
0:03:48 > 0:03:53picture presented now these furious members of the Church of Scotland
0:03:53 > 0:03:57subjected to harangue, it wasn't like that at all? That isn't my
0:03:57 > 0:04:04recollection of it. I was there as a BBC journalist. My recollection
0:04:04 > 0:04:11was that they listened to her in polite silence. At the end of her
0:04:11 > 0:04:15speech applauded her fairly roundly and off it went. It was... Well, it
0:04:15 > 0:04:19happened. The other thing I don't know whether it's myth making or
0:04:19 > 0:04:24not, is this idea now, I heard it repeated on the television the
0:04:24 > 0:04:27other night, at that time, because there was no Scottish Parliament
0:04:27 > 0:04:31somehow or other the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland
0:04:31 > 0:04:35was viewed as a surrogate Parliament. Surely most people in
0:04:35 > 0:04:40Scotland in the late 190's that would have been the furthest thing
0:04:40 > 0:04:44from their minds? That was constantly said, but never said by
0:04:44 > 0:04:50anybody, to my knowledge in the Church of Scotland. It was the sort
0:04:50 > 0:04:55of thing that lazy journalists like to -- liked to say... It mass
0:04:55 > 0:05:00become common currency? It was the sort of thing, because the Church
0:05:00 > 0:05:06of Scotland had a Church of Nation Committee which had a day in those
0:05:06 > 0:05:09days which debated heaven, earth and all creation, people got the
0:05:09 > 0:05:15impression this was somehow the nearest thing to a Scottish
0:05:15 > 0:05:18Parliament that was, I have to say, constantly repeated by politicians
0:05:18 > 0:05:23who came to the Assembly and said - you are the nearest thing we have
0:05:23 > 0:05:26to a Scottish Parliament. You're debates are better than those in
0:05:26 > 0:05:33Parliament, God help us for what Parliament must have been like!
0:05:33 > 0:05:38That is how the myth was created. Right. Look, putting your Reverend
0:05:38 > 0:05:43hat on for a minute, what did you make of today? This been discussing
0:05:43 > 0:05:48whether... It was a daeply Christian ceremony, wasn't it?
0:05:48 > 0:05:52thought it was a very Christian ceremony -- deeply. Am I supposed
0:05:52 > 0:05:57to say I didn't think that was a good idea. Of course I don't expect
0:05:57 > 0:06:02you to say that. I'm curious whether you thought the state
0:06:02 > 0:06:06nature of it was appropriate, the military aspect was appropriate?
0:06:06 > 0:06:12Whether everyone who I have heard today was quite impressed by the
0:06:12 > 0:06:17most strictly religious bits of it? I had grave reservations about the
0:06:17 > 0:06:23military and the state aspect of. It I thought there was bound to be
0:06:23 > 0:06:29a degree of state aspect there. I thought it impressive. I watched it
0:06:29 > 0:06:35right through. I was very touched by the way that everybody who took
0:06:35 > 0:06:39part in it was attempting to relate this, from my point of view, to the
0:06:39 > 0:06:47Christian gospel. In many ways it is the funeral of a public figure
0:06:47 > 0:06:52that I have ever seen which was overtly and clearly Christian, as
0:06:52 > 0:06:57indeed obviously Margaret... If you think they succeeded doing that,
0:06:57 > 0:07:01what about the meeting on the Mound her definition of Christianity?
0:07:01 > 0:07:04That is a different thing. I don't think her definition of
0:07:04 > 0:07:12Christianity was the definition of Christianity that the Bishop of
0:07:12 > 0:07:16London was telling us about, nor in the prayers... It was the Good Is a
0:07:16 > 0:07:21mariton thing? Her thing was that the thing about the good Samaritan
0:07:21 > 0:07:27was that he had money to give it away. That is not and never has
0:07:27 > 0:07:32been the purpose of the par bell. To go back to the service today. I
0:07:32 > 0:07:38thought, none the less, people were constantly attempting to address a
0:07:38 > 0:07:44public figure, in relation to the Christian gospel and the way they
0:07:44 > 0:07:49had tried to work out how their faith and their political will and
0:07:49 > 0:07:54their political policies matched up. Now, I may have lots of criticisms
0:07:54 > 0:08:00of Mrs Thatcher as to whether she succeeded in that, but that she
0:08:00 > 0:08:04attempted to do so is something I applaud. Right. The Bishop of
0:08:04 > 0:08:08London gets an A in diplomacy if not sermons by the way he managed
0:08:08 > 0:08:13to square it, she didn't quite mean that about society? I think the
0:08:13 > 0:08:18Bishop of London always gets an a for diplomacy. He was a rough
0:08:19 > 0:08:23contemporary of mine at university. He has always been a very, very
0:08:24 > 0:08:26good diplomat. All right. Thank you very much indeed.
0:08:26 > 0:08:29There was a pretty impressive set of economic figures for the
0:08:29 > 0:08:31Scottish Government to brag about today, and they did.
0:08:31 > 0:08:34Not unreasonable, given that unemployment here is down to under
0:08:34 > 0:08:37200,000 for the first time in three years; and economic growth is up,
0:08:37 > 0:08:40neither of which can be said for the rest of the UK.
0:08:40 > 0:08:43Why is that? We'll be discussing that in a few
0:08:43 > 0:08:53moments, but first Andrew Black looks at the figures and who should
0:08:53 > 0:08:57
0:08:57 > 0:09:01Finance Secretary, John Swinney, was out and about spreading his
0:09:01 > 0:09:06message about Scotland's economy. Visiting Scottish Power's new
0:09:06 > 0:09:11offices he says the latest figures show Scotland is out performing the
0:09:11 > 0:09:16UK as a a whole. What do they say? Scottish unemployment fell by
0:09:16 > 0:09:2311,000 between December and February to stand at 19 7,000. The
0:09:23 > 0:09:27number of people in jobs increased by 39,000 to reach just over 2.5
0:09:27 > 0:09:33million. The biggest recorded rise in 12 years. How do those figures
0:09:33 > 0:09:40chime with Britain as a whole? Well, the Scottish jobless rate stands at
0:09:40 > 0:09:467.3% compared to the UK average of 7.9%. Meanwhile, new Scottish
0:09:46 > 0:09:52government data says Scotland's economy grew by 0.5% in 2013 while
0:09:52 > 0:09:56the UK economy as a whole shrunk by 0.3%. That demonstrates the value
0:09:56 > 0:09:58and the strength of the approach that we are taking to investment in
0:09:58 > 0:10:03the economy by concentrating on investment in capital
0:10:03 > 0:10:07infrastructure in Scotland, creating employment and we see that
0:10:07 > 0:10:11into the employment data, where we had a substantial rise in
0:10:11 > 0:10:13employment and substantial fall in unemployment. This is a day of
0:10:13 > 0:10:18positive news about the the Scottish economy. More work needs
0:10:18 > 0:10:24to be done, we are clearly moving in the right direction. The SNP's
0:10:24 > 0:10:28opponents say that is a bit rich. It is silly to claim credit for
0:10:28 > 0:10:32everything that goes well North of the border, but blame Westminster
0:10:32 > 0:10:37for anything that goes wrong. The figures today are good. The figures
0:10:37 > 0:10:41are now getting below 200,000 unemployed people is good. It's
0:10:41 > 0:10:43still 200,000 people who are without a job. That is why the
0:10:43 > 0:10:48combined efforts of both the Westminster government and the
0:10:48 > 0:10:55Scottish government is what we need to do. Looking beyond the raw
0:10:55 > 0:10:59statistics throws up more questions. The Scottish Parliament's
0:10:59 > 0:11:02Employment Committee warned of unemployed, people doing jobs for
0:11:02 > 0:11:09which they are over qualified like university graduates working in
0:11:09 > 0:11:12pubs. When the employers told us they thought it was better that
0:11:12 > 0:11:19people being ununderstood employed thand being over employed it keeps
0:11:19 > 0:11:25up their skills. Many people who suffered under employment said they
0:11:25 > 0:11:28lost Mott vaition and drop in their income. There are negative impacts
0:11:29 > 0:11:35on individuals being under employed. There are other things going on.
0:11:35 > 0:11:38Women don't seem to have benefited from the fall in unemployment. Very
0:11:38 > 0:11:44long-term unemployment increased again across all age groups. It is
0:11:44 > 0:11:47good news overall. The question is - why is it happening?
0:11:47 > 0:11:50So, what is going on? Joining me now is Emily Thomson
0:11:50 > 0:11:53from Glasgow Caledonian University, who's made a particular study of
0:11:53 > 0:12:03women in the Scottish jobs market, and Professor David Bell of the
0:12:03 > 0:12:03
0:12:03 > 0:12:09Scottish Economic Policy Forum at Is there anything here that enables
0:12:09 > 0:12:16us to say that there is a divergence between Scotland and the
0:12:16 > 0:12:24UK than when there was unemployment here? This is the strongest signal
0:12:24 > 0:12:29of some kind of diversance. Both the data do look relatively good in
0:12:29 > 0:12:34Scotland's favour, so to speak. We still are lagging well behind where
0:12:34 > 0:12:39we were in 200. If we look historically, things aren't that
0:12:39 > 0:12:44great. If we look compared with the rest of the UK, at the moment, at
0:12:44 > 0:12:50least, things don't look too bad. Will is an argument that what we
0:12:50 > 0:12:53have seen, particularly in the south of England is a bump up and a
0:12:53 > 0:13:00nosedive down as a result of the Olympics which didn't have an
0:13:00 > 0:13:05affect on the north of England and Scotland is that why comparatively
0:13:05 > 0:13:10the figures look... Yes. Looking at industry by industry, Scotland
0:13:10 > 0:13:15seems to be doing well in the production sector. Not as badly as
0:13:15 > 0:13:19England is doing in terms of construction. Also energy is
0:13:19 > 0:13:24performing very, very well in Scotland. Right. What did you make
0:13:24 > 0:13:28of these figures? It's early encouraging figures, we have to
0:13:28 > 0:13:31remember that the employment data is only a snapshot. It's quarterly.
0:13:31 > 0:13:37If we look at the last two years, for example, if we look at the
0:13:37 > 0:13:40impact that the recession had on womens' employment particularly we
0:13:41 > 0:13:48have a drop of 25,000 women in the labour market over the last two
0:13:48 > 0:13:51years compared with the rise of 34,000 male workers. Also, the
0:13:51 > 0:13:58overall unemployment and employment data doesn't tell us about the
0:13:58 > 0:14:04nature of these jobs, part-time, full-time, there is a rise of
0:14:04 > 0:14:14casualisation in the labour market. More for women. I think we have to,
0:14:14 > 0:14:28
0:14:28 > 0:14:35as David says, take a longer term There was a suggestion that people
0:14:35 > 0:14:40did not say aye am not in the labour market, but St I want a job.
0:14:40 > 0:14:44This is a difficult area because people can declare themselves to be
0:14:44 > 0:14:50inactive for different reasons and three months later they perhaps say
0:14:50 > 0:14:59aye am looking for a job. So they get transferred from the inactive
0:14:59 > 0:15:03to the unemployed category. It is a malleable border. What is the trend.
0:15:03 > 0:15:12Infectivity has been increasing. some of the difference could be
0:15:12 > 0:15:19what people are reporting. Under employment is something both of you
0:15:19 > 0:15:26are interested in. People who have fought themselves as doing a part-
0:15:26 > 0:15:33time job but would be preferably doing a full-time job. Or in a job
0:15:33 > 0:15:41and say they want more powers. What is the trend. Very definitely there
0:15:41 > 0:15:45is an excess supply of hours especially amongst the young. Those
0:15:45 > 0:15:52who are in employment say they would like to work longer hours.
0:15:52 > 0:15:57The principal reason is that their wages are relatively low. We had a
0:15:57 > 0:16:04period of decline in male wages because inflation, prices have
0:16:04 > 0:16:09increased faster than wages. So to keep up real incomes people have to
0:16:09 > 0:16:15work for longer. So went in a survey they're asked, they would
0:16:15 > 0:16:20say aye would like to work another 10 or 15 hours. This could be part
0:16:20 > 0:16:25of the solution to this suppose that mystery of what is happening
0:16:25 > 0:16:32in the economy. During this recession. That unemployment is not
0:16:32 > 0:16:37nearly as bad as everyone expected. But there has been a very big fall
0:16:37 > 0:16:43in labour productivity. Presumably it could be a product of keeping
0:16:43 > 0:16:51people on that doing fewer hours. They would like to be working more.
0:16:51 > 0:16:57But output per worker is going down. And this under employment is
0:16:57 > 0:17:02especially bad for women. The factors underpinning the gender
0:17:02 > 0:17:10profile off under employment is that women are more likely to be
0:17:10 > 0:17:16working in sectors affected live retell or social care. And also
0:17:16 > 0:17:22more likely to be working in jobs beneath their skills level often in
0:17:22 > 0:17:30order to balance their caring responsibilities. Is that something,
0:17:30 > 0:17:40is that every, is there every evidence that that has got worse
0:17:40 > 0:17:41
0:17:41 > 0:17:47since the social crash? Yes and some of the fall in unemployment
0:17:47 > 0:17:55has been offset by a rise in self- employment. There has been around a
0:17:55 > 0:18:0060% net rise in self-employment amongst women. That is more a
0:18:00 > 0:18:06survival strategy with people trying to scratch a living. And in
0:18:06 > 0:18:10terms of under employment it is often perceived that children other
0:18:10 > 0:18:17reason for women working part-time but those choices are made under
0:18:17 > 0:18:21conditions of constraint. Perhaps if there was more affordable
0:18:21 > 0:18:28childcare for example those choices might be different. This is
0:18:28 > 0:18:36something that you are looked to us will especially the thing about the
0:18:36 > 0:18:43self-employed. The point that you make in a forthcoming paper is that
0:18:43 > 0:18:48a lot of this self-employment might actually be self UN employment.
0:18:48 > 0:18:52is the defensive mechanism. We now have a more flexible labour market
0:18:52 > 0:18:58and people are willing to give it a go to set themselves up in business.
0:18:58 > 0:19:04But they find it difficult. Many self-employed people are working
0:19:04 > 0:19:11quite short hours because they just do not have the business to employ
0:19:11 > 0:19:15them, to employ themselves full- time. How unemployment affects
0:19:15 > 0:19:22individuals, the big thing you both seem to agree on is that the
0:19:22 > 0:19:27fundamental reason is a deficit of demand in the economy. There are
0:19:27 > 0:19:34more factors underpinning the situation for women. That has been
0:19:34 > 0:19:39an issue since before the recession. But it has got worse. Is it just
0:19:39 > 0:19:45and demand problem. I think it is multi-dimensional for women. It is
0:19:45 > 0:19:52a demand problem, a productivity issue but also the lack of
0:19:52 > 0:19:57affordable and available childcare. Is there more pressure on women,
0:19:57 > 0:20:02perhaps in a family where the woman was not working and the partner
0:20:02 > 0:20:08loses their job, is there more pressure on women to go out and get
0:20:08 > 0:20:16a job but then have the household responsibilities and end up taking
0:20:16 > 0:20:26something? The evidence shows that women are more likely to be the
0:20:26 > 0:20:31money manager in the household. So there could be an element of that.
0:20:31 > 0:20:36What do we do about all this? Scott when doing relatively well but
0:20:37 > 0:20:42still overall it is pretty much Vlada lining. You also think these
0:20:42 > 0:20:50job creation schemes are a waste of time. So what do we do? Just hope
0:20:50 > 0:20:57for the best? It is a difficult situation. The euro-zone market is
0:20:57 > 0:21:01going to be difficult. And consumer demand is going to remain
0:21:01 > 0:21:07relatively quiet for quite some time yet.
0:21:07 > 0:21:17Now a quick look at tomorrow's front pages. All leading up with
0:21:17 > 0:21:19
0:21:19 > 0:21:29the funeral of Margaret Thatcher. That is probably on the steps of St
0:21:29 > 0:21:31
0:21:31 > 0:21:39Paul's. The Guardian, the court from the Bishop of London. That -
0:21:39 > 0:21:49the quote. And a picture of Carol Thatcher in the Daily Mail. That is
0:21:49 > 0:21:55
0:21:55 > 0:22:02all for tonight. I will be back Good evening. A real buffeting from
0:22:02 > 0:22:07the wind through the night and some heavy rain in western areas.
0:22:07 > 0:22:13Potentially some atrocious conditions on the roads. The
0:22:13 > 0:22:21showers beginning across western areas but migrating east. And a
0:22:22 > 0:22:31gusty wind blowing them on. And it will be much fresher during the day
0:22:32 > 0:22:32
0:22:32 > 0:22:39tomorrow. A very wet start for some first thing in the morning. More
0:22:39 > 0:22:46rain coming in in the afternoon to Northern Ireland courtesy of
0:22:46 > 0:22:52another weather front. So wet and windy through the night. The
0:22:52 > 0:23:00outlook as we head through Thursday and Friday, in the northern half of
0:23:00 > 0:23:07the UK we have that showery rain. Brighter on Friday. But still does