0:00:08 > 0:00:12We will be launching the direct Tonight on Newsnight Scotland,
0:00:12 > 0:00:16Labour has published proposals to give more powers to Holyrood,
0:00:16 > 0:00:21including complete control of income tax. If they are taken up,
0:00:21 > 0:00:27is it bold ideas, or just Labour hanging on to the coat tails of the
0:00:27 > 0:00:31SNP? Also tonight, some of Oxford's finest apply their brains to the
0:00:31 > 0:00:34independence debate. And Holyrood says farewell, and a few other
0:00:34 > 0:00:41things, to Baroness Thatcher. A commission chaired by the Scottish
0:00:41 > 0:00:45Labour leader, Johann Lamont, has come up with proposals including
0:00:45 > 0:00:49giving complete control of income tax to the Scottish Parliament.
0:00:49 > 0:00:53There are already reports of dark mutterings from some Scottish
0:00:53 > 0:00:57Labour in peace. Every day, the Scottish Parliament but decisions
0:00:57 > 0:01:02about the running of a schools, hospitals and police. But when it
0:01:02 > 0:01:09comes to financial powers, Holyrood has got much less power. Since the
0:01:09 > 0:01:11SNP came to power, pro- union parties have been trying to keep
0:01:11 > 0:01:16devolution an attractive alternative to independence, and
0:01:16 > 0:01:20there has been no shortage of suggestions. In 2009, a commission
0:01:20 > 0:01:25delivered a report which will see new financial powers coming to
0:01:25 > 0:01:30Holyrood. Last year, a report said Scotland could raise most of its
0:01:30 > 0:01:34cash by 2020. That was followed by the Liberal Democrats' home rule
0:01:34 > 0:01:40commission, dreaming of a federal Scotland. Today, Scottish Labour
0:01:40 > 0:01:44outlined its thinking of the future of devolution. With a little over
0:01:44 > 0:01:49500 days to go until the referendum, Labour reckons it needs to offer
0:01:49 > 0:01:52voters something new and positive to counteract the argument for
0:01:52 > 0:01:55winning independence. In its proposals, they this as devolving
0:01:55 > 0:01:58income tax would provide a stable income tax would provide a stable
0:01:58 > 0:02:03source of cash. They say there is a strong case for getting control of
0:02:03 > 0:02:07air passenger duty, and they back powers on vehicle excise duty
0:02:07 > 0:02:14moving from Westminster to Holyrood. And what about those powers which
0:02:14 > 0:02:20would remain? Devolving VAT is banned under European law. Labour
0:02:20 > 0:02:24says it is possible to devolve North Sea oil tax, but it says that
0:02:24 > 0:02:28risks and the unpredictable fiscal cliff. The party warns devolution
0:02:28 > 0:02:34of corporation tax could spark a race to the bottom, with businesses
0:02:34 > 0:02:38continually relocating to cut their bills. Scottish Labour leader
0:02:38 > 0:02:43Johann Lamont says her priority is Johann Lamont says her priority is
0:02:43 > 0:02:45making Scotland have a better position within the UK. We have a
0:02:45 > 0:02:49huge amount of devolved responsibility, but very little
0:02:49 > 0:02:52responsibility for raising money. I think there is a bit of a
0:02:52 > 0:02:55separation between the good things you can do with the money, along
0:02:55 > 0:03:00with confronting the challenge of convincing people about how to make
0:03:00 > 0:03:05the right contribution to the services. I think the report falls
0:03:05 > 0:03:09way short of what Scotland really needs. We need to create jobs and
0:03:09 > 0:03:13get the economy growing, and yet this report recommends that the
0:03:13 > 0:03:17power of a corporation tax and North Sea revenues should stay in
0:03:17 > 0:03:20London. The proposals will be discussed at the Scottish Labour
0:03:20 > 0:03:27conference this weekend. The question is, will the party sign
0:03:27 > 0:03:34up? I am joined by Scottish Labour's the B-Team leader, Anas
0:03:34 > 0:03:38Sarwar. What is the point of all of this? -- Deputy Leader. The last
0:03:38 > 0:03:44lot of devolved taxes are not even in force yet, and you are proposing
0:03:44 > 0:03:48devolving even more? The first thing to say is that last year,
0:03:48 > 0:03:53Johann Lamont set out the launching of the devolution commission, to
0:03:53 > 0:03:59look at powers not just from Westminster to Holyrood, but also
0:03:59 > 0:04:04in local government, not just powers for the sake of it, powers
0:04:04 > 0:04:08about creating a stronger Scottish Parliament. You say that, but the
0:04:08 > 0:04:13last lot, the Calman commission proposals, and not even in force
0:04:13 > 0:04:19yet, and yet you're proposing more power was. We're having a genuine
0:04:19 > 0:04:25dialogue about the best interests of Scotland. -- powers. But surely
0:04:25 > 0:04:29you are just hanging on to the coat tails of the S&P? Absolutely not.
0:04:29 > 0:04:37Whatever we do on devolution, it will never pass the S&P test,
0:04:37 > 0:04:41because they do not believe in what we believe in. -- SNP. We are in
0:04:41 > 0:04:44favour of Scotland remaining part of the United Kingdom, and we want
0:04:44 > 0:04:54a devolution settlement which works best for the people of Scotland. We
0:04:54 > 0:04:55
0:04:55 > 0:04:59are looking at a range of proposals. My challenge would be to the SNP,
0:04:59 > 0:05:06why not engage fully in a process about making devolution work
0:05:06 > 0:05:12instead of putting one of your eggs in one basket? This is supposed to
0:05:12 > 0:05:19be not just tokenism, but which nos for purpose, as you said, in your
0:05:19 > 0:05:22own jargon. I struggled to find any rationale in your document for
0:05:22 > 0:05:28devolving all income tax to Scotland, so perhaps you could tell
0:05:28 > 0:05:32us what it is? There is a strong case around the accountability of
0:05:32 > 0:05:35the parliament, and its ability to raise more cash than it spends.
0:05:35 > 0:05:39the purpose was supposed to be doing better for the people of
0:05:40 > 0:05:44Scotland... As I was going to say, there is a strong case around
0:05:44 > 0:05:53accountability, and making the practicalities of that work. We
0:05:53 > 0:05:59have to test it robustly across all sectors of Scotland. We will look
0:05:59 > 0:06:04at how we can use those tax powers, if we do implement it, in the
0:06:04 > 0:06:10interests of Scotland. But how is devolving all income tax powers to
0:06:10 > 0:06:16Scotland going to make life better for people? It is the SNP which
0:06:16 > 0:06:20wants to devolve all power. We do not believe that. But you saying
0:06:20 > 0:06:24your document you only want devolution if it helps - more
0:06:24 > 0:06:33devolution - if it helps the needs of people? What needs would be met
0:06:33 > 0:06:41by this? Absolutely, that's what we are saying. What are these needs?
0:06:41 > 0:06:46One of those issues is income tax, can we look to devolve it so that
0:06:46 > 0:06:52it works to give accountability to the Parliament? I am not asking you
0:06:52 > 0:06:57that, I am you're asking you what the argument is for doing it. -- I
0:06:57 > 0:07:02am asking you. Your criterion is that you only want more powers if
0:07:02 > 0:07:06it helps what people need, so how does devolving all income tax to
0:07:06 > 0:07:09Scotland to that? We're saying that we think there was a strong case,
0:07:09 > 0:07:15in terms of accountability, accountability for the parliament,
0:07:15 > 0:07:18and if it works in terms of making sure that it does not increase the
0:07:18 > 0:07:22administrative burden for individuals, and if it strengthens
0:07:22 > 0:07:27our role within the United Kingdom, then we will look to devolve that
0:07:27 > 0:07:31power. That gives us the argument about how we can create a fair
0:07:31 > 0:07:35redistribution of tax within Scotland. I have not heard you say
0:07:35 > 0:07:39anything at all about how you can create a fairer, more
0:07:39 > 0:07:49redistributive system in Scotland. You say in your document that it
0:07:49 > 0:08:03
0:08:03 > 0:08:08could be more progressive, but that fairness in the tax system to get
0:08:08 > 0:08:14us through an economic crisis. You're saying you want to devolve
0:08:14 > 0:08:21powers of income tax as you can reintroduce the 50p tax rate?
0:08:21 > 0:08:25not proposing -- there are no conclusions set a new report.
0:08:25 > 0:08:30say it could lead to a more progressive tax system. What you
0:08:30 > 0:08:36think that is? If we choose to devolve to the Scottish Parliament,
0:08:36 > 0:08:41that Parliament would have the choice. Four what do you think. --
0:08:41 > 0:08:46what you think he's mean? I am not pretending to have all the answers.
0:08:46 > 0:08:52That is the difference between us and the SNP. You saying you run
0:08:52 > 0:09:00document it could lead to a more progressive tax system -- you say
0:09:00 > 0:09:05in your own document. A Scotland did choose to devolve income tax to
0:09:05 > 0:09:09the -- if Scotland did choose to devolve income tax, we could make
0:09:09 > 0:09:17it more progressive. This is about making sure a package of powers
0:09:17 > 0:09:19work in Scotland. I am sorry. We are out of time.
0:09:19 > 0:09:21It is not just the political parties who are furiously
0:09:21 > 0:09:24researching and publishing on Scotland's politics and economics
0:09:24 > 0:09:34these days. Three senior academics at Oxford University have just
0:09:34 > 0:09:38
0:09:38 > 0:09:45published Scotland's Choices. One of the offers joins me now. --
0:09:45 > 0:09:50authors. Why have you done this? Does this mean that all these
0:09:50 > 0:09:54arguments about the referendum or becoming respectable academic
0:09:54 > 0:09:57subject for study across the UK? And we have done this book because
0:09:57 > 0:10:01the people of Scotland will shortly have to choose. The issues they
0:10:01 > 0:10:11will have to choose about are not simple. I think that is clear from
0:10:11 > 0:10:13
0:10:13 > 0:10:21the discussion will stock everybody -- from the discussion we have just
0:10:21 > 0:10:29heard. We're trying to present what we think are the issues and our
0:10:29 > 0:10:33best guesses as to what will happen if you bought a certain way. It is
0:10:33 > 0:10:38a huge brick. We don't have time to go through all of them. Let's go
0:10:38 > 0:10:42through one issue which is pertinent to what we have just
0:10:42 > 0:10:50heard from Anas Sarwar. If you devolved income tax to Scotland,
0:10:51 > 0:10:57don't you think that would make the Barnett formula, which Labour in
0:10:57 > 0:11:02the document say they want to keep, pretty untenable? Yes, we think
0:11:02 > 0:11:10that any possible reforms including at the Scotland Act, which will
0:11:10 > 0:11:14come into force if the vote is no, which is the same as the Calman
0:11:14 > 0:11:19report which was discussed in your previous item. For my money, it
0:11:19 > 0:11:23doesn't make a great deal of difference whether you devolve the
0:11:23 > 0:11:29last 10p in income tax, as the Calman Commission suggests, or you
0:11:29 > 0:11:32devolve the whole of income tax as the Labour Party are now proposing.
0:11:32 > 0:11:38The vital thing is that the Scottish Parliament should take the
0:11:38 > 0:11:44decision on the last pound. Do you raise a �1 more in tax, which means
0:11:44 > 0:11:50you can spend �1 more in services? Or do you cut tax by �1 in which
0:11:50 > 0:11:56case you have to find that money from somewhere else or through
0:11:56 > 0:12:00cuts? To the coalition government set up the Office for Budget
0:12:00 > 0:12:05Responsibility, something which they might have recently regretted.
0:12:05 > 0:12:14People in Scotland abstained we want the information to allow us to
0:12:14 > 0:12:20make up our minds. Is there a case for some sort of department just
0:12:20 > 0:12:30for Scotland? The Office for Budget Responsibility does produce
0:12:30 > 0:12:31
0:12:31 > 0:12:37statistics for Scotland. There is also a series of journals. The
0:12:37 > 0:12:42daytime is out there. Our book tries to enter but it. Thank you
0:12:42 > 0:12:46very much. I am sure our viewers will be off to check the documents.
0:12:46 > 0:12:48Thank you. Finally, in the week of Baroness
0:12:48 > 0:12:50Thatcher's funeral, the last words go to the parliamentarians of
0:12:50 > 0:12:53Edinburgh. After much disagreement about whether or when Holyrood
0:12:53 > 0:12:56should debate the controversial legacy, they got around to it this
0:12:56 > 0:12:59afternoon. The Green MSP Patrick Harvie opened with a critique of
0:12:59 > 0:13:03Thatcherism. This model continues to dominate UK
0:13:03 > 0:13:12political parties far too much. There is a danger that we allow it
0:13:12 > 0:13:20to demonstrate -- to dominate the political landscape in Scotland is
0:13:20 > 0:13:28also evident. David Cameron is able to keep a straight face as we are
0:13:28 > 0:13:36all Thatcherites now. Two caught the lady, no, no, no. We have
0:13:36 > 0:13:43chartered a different course on social policies. -- to quote the
0:13:43 > 0:13:48lady. Our policies protect rather than demonise the most vulnerable
0:13:48 > 0:13:53in society. In the 1980s, the Conservative Party pursued policies
0:13:53 > 0:13:57which broke harps and destroy people's dignity. As politicians,
0:13:57 > 0:14:06we must resolve that that should never be allowed to happen again.
0:14:06 > 0:14:13If we deal in hard facts instead of meths, Scotland's economy grew on
0:14:13 > 0:14:19average of 2.5% every year throughout the 1980s. The First
0:14:19 > 0:14:26Minister has grudgingly recognised these achievements, saying that he
0:14:26 > 0:14:30didn't mind the economic side of her policies. With living standards
0:14:30 > 0:14:37increasing and employment increasing, why would he? It was
0:14:37 > 0:14:42wrong because she used the money saved to cut taxes. She used the
0:14:42 > 0:14:45money to buy votes, rather than prepare for the future.
0:14:45 > 0:14:53Newtongrange, Corbridge and elsewhere in mining communities,
0:14:53 > 0:15:03her death has not been met by the police deference and a deal of
0:15:03 > 0:15:06
0:15:06 > 0:15:12hypocrisy. It was celebrations -- Gorebridge. Margaret Thatcher
0:15:12 > 0:15:17expected people to go out there, to do her best unpaid tax for public
0:15:17 > 0:15:19services. That is how a country works. It always amazes me that
0:15:19 > 0:15:25there are 40 many people in Scotland who want to talk about how
0:15:25 > 0:15:29we read -- how we redistribute wealth, without realising it might
0:15:29 > 0:15:33be useful to create some wealth at the same time. My objection to
0:15:33 > 0:15:37Margaret Thatcher is that she divided society. Between those who
0:15:37 > 0:15:42have and those who have not. The Labour Party has done very little
0:15:42 > 0:15:46to correct that. Mrs Thatcher realised that Britain had to take
0:15:46 > 0:15:52decisions. That is why they were divided. Because there was no
0:15:52 > 0:15:55consensus as to how we go forward. Somebody had to act. She acted. I
0:15:55 > 0:15:59believe that the country is the believe that the country is the
0:15:59 > 0:16:09better for it. Now a quick look at tomorrow's