:00:14. > :00:18.Miliband to say, just trust us! On Newsnight Scotland tonight, does
:00:18. > :00:24.Nanny know best? A succession of campaigns to stop people smoking
:00:24. > :00:30.with the latest today a ban on cigarette displays. The
:00:30. > :00:35.government's rates to respect our liberties or does taking tough
:00:35. > :00:39.action no means saving in the long run? Two different Scottish
:00:39. > :00:43.administrations have been clamping down on smoking for the last few
:00:43. > :00:48.years. Proposals to limit alcohol and
:00:48. > :00:52.healthy eating problems have also hit the headlines. Some say the
:00:52. > :00:59.nanny states should stop sticking its nose and our lives but if the
:00:59. > :01:05.state has 2p for the consequences, should be able to intervene?
:01:05. > :01:11.The shutters have come down here on cigarette displays with customers
:01:11. > :01:17.wanting the tobacco fix from now on will have to specifically ask.
:01:17. > :01:22.Smaller scale shopkeepers have another two years to comply with the
:01:22. > :01:27.display ban but for now she questions the strategy. Those who
:01:27. > :01:32.smoke will still smoke. I really feel that if the government is
:01:32. > :01:37.serious about this, they would make it an illegal activity but they are
:01:37. > :01:47.happy to take the money the tax revenue brings them. They have to
:01:47. > :01:47.
:01:47. > :01:55.get the message rates one way or another. There was a time when
:01:55. > :02:01.smoking was seen as pretty acceptable. Eventually health
:02:01. > :02:06.schemes came into play. In more recent times, the Scottish
:02:06. > :02:10.government has been restricting tobacco in a variety of ways. The
:02:10. > :02:16.smoking ban in 2006 was the first major measure. The purchasing age
:02:16. > :02:26.was raised to 18 and then a lady was raised on supermarkets which sold
:02:26. > :02:28.
:02:28. > :02:33.tobacco and alcohol. -- levy. It is not just smoking that ministers want
:02:33. > :02:38.to deduce. Scotland's public health minister has previously called for a
:02:38. > :02:46.UK wide ban on TV ads on the food that is high in fat, salt and sugar
:02:46. > :02:49.before the watershed, but are these measures a step too far?
:02:49. > :02:55.Public-health policy has to be informed by an evidence base and it
:02:55. > :02:59.is important to listen to that. The significant level of marketing
:02:59. > :03:06.evidence which demonstrates the ways in which particular are marketed is
:03:06. > :03:10.transmitted, whether it is through newspaper and television, can have a
:03:10. > :03:20.real impact on the choices people make. We also have to look at what
:03:20. > :03:25.impact that then makes on the health of the nation. Labour's Richard
:03:25. > :03:32.Simpson is a former GP who welcomes the recent action but how does he
:03:32. > :03:36.answer those critics who say civil liberties are being put at risk?
:03:36. > :03:40.consult widely on every measure and if there was a large opposition, it
:03:40. > :03:46.would have to be looked at very carefully indeed but that he will
:03:46. > :03:53.accept what we have introduced, like the smoking ban, two thirds of
:03:54. > :04:03.people will commit including two thirds of smokers. What does history
:04:04. > :04:04.
:04:04. > :04:09.tell us about restricting things that can be bad for you? When the
:04:09. > :04:18.manufacture and sale of alcohol was banned in the US in 1920,
:04:19. > :04:26.campaigners smashed kegs and poured the link down the drain. National
:04:26. > :04:34.prohibition drove alcohol underground. When the policy was
:04:34. > :04:36.scrapped, people went to celebrate. Back in modern-day Scotland, there
:04:37. > :04:42.is no suggestion that tobacco restrictions will lead to
:04:42. > :04:48.prohibition era seems but will further plans which include a ban on
:04:48. > :04:52.smoking outside hospitals will leave civil rights groups fuming? We are
:04:52. > :04:56.now joined in the studio by Doctor Andrew Fraser of NHS health
:04:56. > :05:05.Scotland, Doctor Laura Williamson from the Institute for applied
:05:05. > :05:11.health research and from Dundee, a sociology lecturer who is also the
:05:11. > :05:19.founder of liberty Scotland. Do you think we live in a nanny
:05:19. > :05:22.state? I do not think so. I hope we are living in a well-informed state.
:05:22. > :05:27.The government has a role in bringing information to the public
:05:27. > :05:33.and helping them to make the correct choices and these choices are
:05:33. > :05:40.increasingly healthy choices. The consequences of not bringing that
:05:40. > :05:49.information to peoples attention is are pretty dire on our national
:05:49. > :05:56.health. The consequences of that run the health service. People can die
:05:56. > :06:01.young and leave children behind and if you consider alcohol, there is a
:06:01. > :06:06.large social cost with broken families and the results they are.
:06:06. > :06:11.The implications of not tackling difficult issues of health are many
:06:11. > :06:16.and varied than go well beyond the health service. Do you agree with
:06:17. > :06:22.that? Do you think the state has a right to tell people what to do? In
:06:22. > :06:28.certain circumstances, yes. primary and secondary care, choice
:06:28. > :06:31.is being increased. The government is allowed to infringe freights on
:06:31. > :06:37.liberties but we are concerned about public health. The measures have to
:06:37. > :06:42.be proportionate which is why the lady in the film referring to the
:06:42. > :06:47.fact that they should just ban it. The government has decided that is
:06:47. > :06:52.not proportionate. People can smoke in the own homes but not endanger
:06:52. > :07:02.the health of others. Protecting the vulnerable is a well-established
:07:02. > :07:07.
:07:07. > :07:13.principle. To some extent this is doing the right thing, saving lives
:07:13. > :07:17.and saving money? Treating people who suffer from smoking-related
:07:17. > :07:24.diseases cost the Government millions per year. You agree with
:07:24. > :07:28.what these two are seeing? No. We are missing a much more important
:07:28. > :07:32.picture if we do not realise that this is new. Essentially, when you
:07:32. > :07:39.hide cigarettes from adults, it is like hiding the sweetie jar from
:07:39. > :07:44.children. Society is increasingly treating adults in an infantile way.
:07:44. > :07:51.They may not make the choices that you would like, as one of your
:07:51. > :07:55.panellists said, help them make the right choices. There is an
:07:55. > :08:02.underlying form of moralising that takes place, as well as this great
:08:02. > :08:09.advice that we have, that we seem to have, remote blissfully given to us.
:08:09. > :08:18.-- relentlessly given. I have heard you. Let us live lives, even if we
:08:18. > :08:19.make the wrong choices. Really, there is measure ask measure of
:08:20. > :08:25.politicians becoming more like behavioural psychologists who treat
:08:25. > :08:32.us like lab rats or alike children who need constantly to have our
:08:32. > :08:36.behaviour regulated by them. We are being treated by children, we should
:08:36. > :08:41.get the advice and then act on it. Like the lady was seeing in the
:08:41. > :08:46.film, perhaps, the Government should be brave and ban tobacco, if that is
:08:46. > :08:50.what they want to do and not tinker around the edges. It is one thing to
:08:51. > :08:58.have a CD but back it with evidence. That is a different
:08:58. > :09:02.matter. -- a CV. We know that giving information is not enough to change
:09:02. > :09:06.behaviour. The Scottish Health Observatory published a large
:09:06. > :09:13.document last week that said people are aware but are not making the
:09:13. > :09:20.changes that conform with the type of healthy and balanced life style
:09:20. > :09:25.which will help them illness. We are not arguing for nannying or a
:09:25. > :09:29.universal, or one way is the right way, few of the world. We are
:09:29. > :09:39.arguing that we take proportionate measures for EBV serious health
:09:39. > :09:41.problem that we have in Scotland. -- a very serious health problem. 40%
:09:42. > :09:46.of people facing the greatest challenges smoke. We cannot let that
:09:46. > :09:50.lie and let people drift into illness and early death without
:09:50. > :09:56.taking proportionate measures. We look to the Government, as to other
:09:56. > :10:00.players in Scottish life, to take action. It is not just government.
:10:00. > :10:06.There are social aspects and other aspect which must influence others.
:10:07. > :10:12.Government must play its part. Laura, government playing its part.
:10:12. > :10:15.How receptive are people when they hear the Government 's message? Does
:10:16. > :10:19.it almost depend on the social economic background? The
:10:19. > :10:23.middle-class people not mind what to do whereas traditional working-class
:10:23. > :10:29.families are more used to the state being involved in their life and
:10:29. > :10:34.will listen? I think that Stewart's argument for a minimal state would
:10:34. > :10:39.be OK if everybody had the same degree of freedoms. Because of the
:10:39. > :10:43.circumstances that you referred to, health inequalities, chronic
:10:43. > :10:48.diseases that result from smoking, obesity and alcohol consumption,
:10:48. > :10:52.people do not have the same degree of free choice. There is evidence to
:10:52. > :10:59.show that the smoke-free legislation has had least effect amongst those
:10:59. > :11:05.in poor circumstances. People need help. What the Government is trying
:11:05. > :11:09.to do, I think, is create a level playing field. Unfortunately, it
:11:10. > :11:16.does not exist at the moment. Hearing that, maybe you seeing that
:11:16. > :11:20.the Government treats the people like children but to people not need
:11:20. > :11:26.to be cared for if they're not making the right choices? If we want
:11:26. > :11:30.to give up on having a public health service. The comment that is made
:11:30. > :11:34.there is patronising. Essentially saying that poor people are more
:11:34. > :11:37.stupid to make their own choices. We know that more poor people smoke so
:11:37. > :11:43.we need to make the choices. Yes, more poor people smoke, there are
:11:43. > :11:47.many reasons, but they still make the choice. This sort of approach is
:11:47. > :11:51.degrading and patronising and has an authoritarian aspect to it. We have
:11:51. > :11:57.to recognise that this is what politics has become. Major policies
:11:57. > :12:03.are about increasing pricing, how you regulate smoking. This politics,
:12:03. > :12:10.historically, used to be about advancing society and how you engage
:12:10. > :12:18.with people as thinking, free, morally responsible beings. Now, we
:12:18. > :12:23.have held responsible professionals -- health professionals, influencing
:12:23. > :12:31.what was called our private lives. People with a private existence
:12:31. > :12:34.should make their own choices. Beautifully patronising? It is
:12:34. > :12:39.certainly not because poor people are stupid. Unfortunately, it is
:12:39. > :12:43.because the social economic circumstances the 11 do not have the
:12:43. > :12:47.same choices as people of the richer areas in Glasgow. I am sure the
:12:47. > :12:57.people with the life expectancy of 54 would love to have the freedom
:12:57. > :12:59.
:12:59. > :13:05.that people in the West End Have. . So you will make the choice? I am
:13:05. > :13:09.not making choices for anyone. My work with people in various areas
:13:09. > :13:19.suggest that people are not taking, the people that we are describing as
:13:19. > :13:22.
:13:22. > :13:25.stupid, are not taking the position that they want a minimal state.
:13:25. > :13:28.want support. They are for community and government helping them to
:13:28. > :13:31.flourish. How discovered and tread that difficult line, as we are
:13:31. > :13:35.hearing, a government has to be responsible but, perhaps, they are
:13:35. > :13:38.too responsible. The have the worry too much about the people. Again,
:13:38. > :13:42.coming back to the issue of proportionality, we have a big
:13:42. > :13:51.problem over health. Patronising is something that people may think. We
:13:51. > :13:53.have to do something about that. You heard from Doctor Simpson mentioning
:13:53. > :13:55.a broad political censors are crossed parties that courageous
:13:55. > :14:03.measures need to occur in parliament, with politicians, at but
:14:03. > :14:06.taking the public with us. They are not patronising the public because
:14:06. > :14:09.they are depending on the public for their boats. I am interested in the
:14:09. > :14:12.public health. That is not just about people who make choices. I am
:14:12. > :14:17.thinking about children, where we have a national aspiration to give
:14:17. > :14:25.children the best start in life. Getting it right for every child.
:14:25. > :14:31.What does that mean? I think we have to think about sense of community.
:14:31. > :14:34.What sort of Scotland we want to be. Not a patronising Scotland, not
:14:35. > :14:41.a free choice at any cost Scotland, but a Scotland that cares about each
:14:41. > :14:45.other, community, its health and improvements in that. What about a
:14:45. > :14:48.community where adults are expected to be able to make morally
:14:48. > :14:51.responsible decisions for themselves, without having things
:14:52. > :15:01.hidden from them, like children? Without having the price of
:15:02. > :15:03.
:15:03. > :15:07.alcohol... Let me put that point to you that was being be reinforced
:15:07. > :15:11.from the report that there is a political consensus? Of course there
:15:11. > :15:16.is. The idea of liberty and freedom has completely collapsed in Scotland
:15:16. > :15:20.and, actually, nudge policies and behaviour management,
:15:20. > :15:27.micromanagement of peoples lives, has become what politics today. We
:15:27. > :15:32.have to recognise that the basis of freedom and liberty which was
:15:32. > :15:35.developed by the classic liberals who developed the idea of freedom of
:15:35. > :15:41.democracy was the important thing was not the decisions but that
:15:41. > :15:44.people and culture was free. People recognised that it was the
:15:44. > :15:48.responsible and that they should be given responsibility for their
:15:48. > :15:53.lives. Increasingly, that is being taken away. People are being treated
:15:53. > :15:57.like children. Laura, have we abandoned those old philosophies?
:15:57. > :16:02.have not. Those philosophies allow protection from harm to others and
:16:02. > :16:06.protection of the vulnerable. Children are vulnerable. One of the
:16:06. > :16:09.important things is that we are talking about freedom as if it is
:16:09. > :16:13.made in a neutral context. In fact, in respect of alcohol and smoking,
:16:13. > :16:19.we are talking about multi-million dollar, pound advertising
:16:19. > :16:26.industries. In face of that, how free are these choices? This is why
:16:26. > :16:31.cigarettes have been locked away and we have gone for plain advertising.
:16:32. > :16:37.Patronising, we are all bombarded by adverts. Therefore, I going to
:16:37. > :16:42.drink. Therefore, I am going to smoke. And incredibly patronising
:16:42. > :16:47.view of the public. Have you ever heard of the dictionary? These