:00:07. > :00:10.Scotland were born elsewhere in the British Isles.
:00:10. > :00:20.What do they make of the arguments for and against Scottish
:00:20. > :00:25.
:00:25. > :00:32.Hello, good evening and welcome to the latest of our Newsnight Scotland
:00:32. > :00:35.special debates ahead of the independence referendum.
:00:35. > :00:40.Tonight, I am joined by an audience of Scottish voters who have, in most
:00:40. > :00:44.cases, moved to Scotland from other parts of the UK and Ireland.
:00:44. > :00:49.They are here to share their hopes and concerns for the future of the
:00:49. > :00:52.country they now call home. You are there you are They have submitted a
:00:52. > :01:00.range of questions for our guests, who are, Councillor Chas Booth.
:01:00. > :01:03.You are you are a you are in An independence supporter. Originally
:01:03. > :01:06.from Lincolnshire, he is a Green councillor in Edinburgh.
:01:06. > :01:10.Gordon Banks, the Labour MP for Ochil & South Perthshire, who hails
:01:10. > :01:12.from the North East of England. Humza Yousef, MSP, the SNP Minister
:01:12. > :01:18.for External Affairs. And Katie Grant, the newspaper
:01:18. > :01:28.columnist, who opposes independence. Let's go straight to our first
:01:28. > :01:31.question, which comes from Feliciyy Cross. A Should the people of
:01:31. > :01:41.Scotland be given a referendum on membership of the European Union if
:01:41. > :01:41.
:01:41. > :01:46.we become independent? Haze and we will be run with
:01:46. > :01:49.referendums the team we are finished. The trouble with
:01:49. > :01:57.referendums on the likes of the European Union is that we are not
:01:57. > :02:05.sure what we are voting for or against. I think most of us feel
:02:05. > :02:11.that. I think we do not know what we are voting for or against. I would
:02:11. > :02:16.not be in favour of the referendum in favour of European Union
:02:16. > :02:20.membership. I would like them to be more openness about the benefits and
:02:20. > :02:28.drawbacks. But I think it would be a long time before I, speaking
:02:28. > :02:34.personally, understood what I was floating for or against. I certainly
:02:34. > :02:37.would not know if it was good or bad, I would be voting in the dark.
:02:37. > :02:45.I'd can see the attraction of voting, but I cannot see any deal
:02:45. > :02:54.point to it. David Cameron is obviously promising a United Kingdom
:02:54. > :03:03.white referendum on it following the next election. 2017 is the target
:03:03. > :03:08.date for that. I that time, Scotland could be independent. I do not think
:03:08. > :03:13.there is any appetite for that. I think there is a recognition in
:03:13. > :03:18.Scotland that the European Union is the hugely beneficial family of
:03:18. > :03:24.nations and look forward to the day when Scotland takes its place as a
:03:24. > :03:30.full member of the European Union. I think we realise the benefits we get
:03:30. > :03:32.from the European Union, in terms of jobs through exports, but the
:03:32. > :03:40.protection of workers and the environmental protections. In many
:03:40. > :03:47.Respect, the rise of the United Kingdom Independence party in
:03:47. > :03:52.England, for many Scots, makes it look like England and see that it is
:03:52. > :03:59.becoming a foreign country to us. We do not recognise this xenophobia
:03:59. > :04:06.been put forward by them. I do not think that any appetite for a
:04:06. > :04:09.referendum on the European Union. The United Kingdom Independence
:04:09. > :04:15.party and not here, but of the where, I assumed they would say they
:04:15. > :04:24.were not against foreigners. I am putting that I normally behalf.
:04:24. > :04:34.Gordon Banks. We may comment already about our experiences of the
:04:34. > :04:39.European Union as a member state in the United Kingdom. Bruce Scotland
:04:39. > :04:47.have to renegotiate its deal with the European Union. Really important
:04:47. > :04:50.decisions would have to be made. Whether Scotland were tough to draw
:04:50. > :04:56.up new arrangements on border controls and whether it would get
:04:56. > :05:03.the same level of rebate that we currently get as the United Kingdom.
:05:03. > :05:05.On the basis of these things, I cannot for the life of me imagine
:05:05. > :05:10.that an independent Scotland negotiating successfully in a way
:05:10. > :05:18.that they United Kingdom government has done in these agreements. I
:05:18. > :05:23.think this is a major issue which does meet wider scrutiny. These are
:05:23. > :05:32.things which would not be like the membership of the European Union as
:05:32. > :05:36.it is today. I do not believe that Scots could not successfully
:05:36. > :05:46.negotiate for their own country in Europe. I think that is rather
:05:46. > :05:46.
:05:46. > :05:51.demeaning. I actually broadly with the comments that Katie was seeing,
:05:51. > :05:57.probably the only time I will agree with her! But what is the vital
:05:57. > :06:07.point and Nicola Sturgeon said this in a speech today, think about
:06:07. > :06:08.
:06:08. > :06:18.2020, who here would get �5 on the United Kingdom remaining -- mackerel
:06:18. > :06:22.
:06:22. > :06:25.the European Union as things are going. Even the most harsh critic
:06:25. > :06:34.has said that an independent Scotland could not be in the
:06:34. > :06:38.European Union. Actually, it would secure the future of Scotland. There
:06:38. > :06:44.are plenty of benefits in terms of freedom of movement, business
:06:44. > :06:50.opportunities and we have a market of 200,000 businesses we can tap
:06:50. > :06:57.into. If the rest of the United Kingdom is going to get that choice,
:06:57. > :07:04.why should Scots not get that choice? I do not think that is an
:07:04. > :07:11.appetite for retro. It is very simple. The United Kingdom
:07:11. > :07:18.Independence party is driving this agenda. They have not saved a single
:07:18. > :07:25.deposit in Scotland. But Scotland will have to ask to become a member
:07:25. > :07:34.of the European Union. Every country which has had to become a member has
:07:34. > :07:39.had to take the Euro. There is no resident for an existing state
:07:40. > :07:44.opting out. Last weekend, an adviser to the German government said it
:07:44. > :07:54.would we quite straightforward for Scotland to negotiate membership of
:07:54. > :07:55.
:07:55. > :08:05.the European union. Let us speak to members of the audience regarding
:08:05. > :08:11.this. If Gordon is so concerned about the entry for us into the
:08:11. > :08:17.European Union would be, without not be better FT backed the British
:08:17. > :08:23.Government on this, so we could clear up some of these questions?
:08:23. > :08:28.That would not be the British Government. These negotiations would
:08:28. > :08:34.have to happen with an independent Scotland and the European Union but
:08:34. > :08:37.not carry out the negotiations until Scotland has voted on this.
:08:37. > :08:41.commission has said it would be prepared to explain the process by
:08:41. > :08:45.which Scotland would obtain independent membership of the United
:08:45. > :08:49.Kingdom Government was to put forward that scenario. Would you
:08:49. > :08:54.support an approach of that nature to try and clarify what would
:08:54. > :09:02.happen? I think you could clarify the situation brother we would have
:09:02. > :09:09.the Euro, whether we would still get all that rebate. These are the
:09:09. > :09:18.fundamental things that the downside. Anything that adds clarity
:09:18. > :09:26.to this -- we have already had from my colleague that there will be no
:09:26. > :09:28.referendum. We have heard that from the panel tonight. Would you welcome
:09:28. > :09:35.the United Kingdom gunmen setting out a scenario that the commission
:09:35. > :09:42.could then set out what could happen? I would welcome debate on
:09:42. > :09:45.these three very important issues I have mentioned. The reason why the
:09:45. > :09:53.United Kingdom gunmen would enter with the Scottish government -- and
:09:54. > :09:58.we have been calling for these negotiations -- the reason is just
:09:58. > :10:03.to provide an informed discussion. The reason they will not want it is
:10:03. > :10:07.that they want to plant as many seeds as doubt as they can. I was
:10:07. > :10:16.wandering how long it would take for someone to say someone would be
:10:16. > :10:20.forced into using the euro. Research countries which have joined the
:10:20. > :10:30.European Union, there has not been one which is not at to join the
:10:30. > :10:38.
:10:38. > :10:44.euro. Sweden was not forced. I am sure we will develop the argument.
:10:44. > :10:49.It has been said that if Scotland get Independence, they should not
:10:49. > :10:55.have a referendum on the European Union because the people would not
:10:55. > :11:00.realise the facts about what they were voting for. Is that not the
:11:00. > :11:03.also the case with the Scottish independence referendum, where
:11:03. > :11:10.people are not well informed enough and do not quite know what the will
:11:10. > :11:15.be voting for? Surely the assumption you're making about the European
:11:15. > :11:22.Union and the lack of negotiations that are going on, not between the
:11:22. > :11:27.British gunmen and the European Union, but applies to the European
:11:27. > :11:36.Union, Natal and all the other maths that the Scottish gunmen are
:11:36. > :11:42.bandying around at the moment that there are no answers to? I know the
:11:42. > :11:47.United Kingdom Independence party am not represented, but I think it is
:11:47. > :11:53.dangerous to dismiss the possible impact of them. They were in as a
:11:53. > :11:58.protest party to keep Labour out and I think that if they started to rise
:11:58. > :12:08.in this country, if we have Independence within Europe, that is
:12:08. > :12:15.effectively dependent on Europe and there is nothing to see Scotland
:12:15. > :12:22.will not lose assets if we joined Europe. The party are part of the
:12:22. > :12:26.central debate, do you think that part of that debate being generated
:12:26. > :12:29.about the United Kingdom Independence party will have an
:12:29. > :12:36.impact on the fort for Scottish independence? Time will tell on
:12:36. > :12:40.that. But as has been said, they have consistently was the deposit in
:12:40. > :12:47.every election in Scotland. I do not think there is any appetite for the
:12:47. > :12:53.agenda, which I maintain his anti-emigrant, antiforeigner. It is
:12:53. > :12:57.being on the fears and insecurities of people. In Scotland, immigration
:12:57. > :13:05.is a great thing for us. We have done great things for our culture
:13:05. > :13:12.and economy. Again, this is another argument for independence. If we are
:13:12. > :13:16.having a United Kingdom argument about it immigration, the radius is
:13:16. > :13:23.true in Scotland. Perhaps we Ashley need more immigration in Scotland. I
:13:23. > :13:33.do not think we should let the deal like the dog, the deal being the
:13:33. > :13:36.
:13:36. > :13:40.United Kingdom Independence party. Might the independence movement have
:13:40. > :13:48.something to gain from all the talk of withdrawal elsewhere? Well, it
:13:48. > :13:52.might, but I don't really buy this UKIP thing. It was a tiny percentage
:13:52. > :13:56.of the vote, very few people actually voted. I think it is a
:13:57. > :14:00.bubble that will burst, just like the BNP bubble burst when they
:14:00. > :14:05.became councillors. They did not do a very good job and they all
:14:05. > :14:09.disappeared again. Periodically, we get these bursts of protest, which
:14:09. > :14:14.always have, not unusually, focused on parties which have a very clear
:14:14. > :14:18.message, but other parties do not have a clear message. However
:14:18. > :14:23.unpleasant that messages, it attracts voters. I am not nervous
:14:23. > :14:30.about the UKIP vote, I do not think it will process very much, I do not
:14:30. > :14:34.think we will still be thinking about it in five is time. I would
:14:34. > :14:38.tend to agree with that. Twice! We are counting! I should point out we
:14:38. > :14:44.are sitting on the left of the panel. When it comes to Katie's
:14:44. > :14:50.point, in terms of what I was going to say, I do not think it is a
:14:50. > :14:55.protest most, not only because you see Tory backbenchers talking about
:14:55. > :15:00.UK withdrawal, but senior Cabinet members. We are even talking about
:15:00. > :15:05.people who are tipped to be future leaders of the Conservative Party.
:15:05. > :15:11.want to move on at this stage, I am sure we will talk more on Newsnight
:15:11. > :15:16.in the weeks to come. Ashley Pringle is our next question. How should a
:15:16. > :15:23.future Scotland, independent or other was, game maximum benefits
:15:23. > :15:29.from immigration from outwith its borders? Gordon Banks. Immigration
:15:29. > :15:34.has been good. Land, I would agree with Charles on that, agreeing to
:15:34. > :15:40.the left and to the right. -- good for Scotland. What I would like to
:15:40. > :15:44.see, and we proposed a bill in our alternative Queen's Speech, a bill
:15:44. > :15:50.that Labour would bring in, and this would be a bill based on the
:15:50. > :15:57.economic soft immigration, so that we cannot have employers who are
:15:57. > :16:00.undercutting indigenous workers in Scotland and in the rest of the UK
:16:00. > :16:05.by bringing foreign workers in, paying them less than the national
:16:05. > :16:09.minimum wage, offsetting their wages with accommodation. We would empower
:16:09. > :16:14.councils, including Scottish councils, to enforce the national
:16:14. > :16:21.minimum wage, double B finds, and that in itself would mean economic
:16:21. > :16:24.migration that we get would be the economic migration that we want, not
:16:24. > :16:30.the economic migration that undercuts the Scottish worker and
:16:30. > :16:36.the UK worker. Is that a policy you would be comfortable with?
:16:36. > :16:39.policy sounds great, coming from Gordon, but the problem is he has
:16:39. > :16:46.nowhere of implementing it, which is the difficulty. Immigration is one
:16:46. > :16:49.of the few issues that unites business, the trade unions, and
:16:49. > :16:53.universities, that I have seen in terms of signing joint letters.
:16:53. > :17:00.Immigration has of course been good for Scotland. Having grown up in
:17:00. > :17:04.Glasgow, my favourite dishes are chicken tikka masala and spaghetti
:17:04. > :17:08.Bolognese, the big immigrant groups that have brought their cuisine. But
:17:08. > :17:12.the difficulty is this, immigration is the first issue. If you are down
:17:12. > :17:16.in the polls, feeling the heat of your own backbenchers, the first
:17:16. > :17:20.issue to go for is immigration, and sounding good on immigration. The UK
:17:20. > :17:23.Government could not tell you the number of immigrants in this
:17:23. > :17:32.country. The point is, why don't we take the power in our own hands so
:17:32. > :17:34.that we can find out, yes, there is a shortage in these occupations that
:17:34. > :17:37.cannot be filled by indigenous Scots, where do we need immigrants,
:17:37. > :17:43.and where we need them in Scotland? Actually control the policy in the
:17:43. > :17:47.Scottish Parliament, as opposed to a government 450 miles away that is
:17:47. > :17:52.kowtowing to the Daily Mail, the Daily Telegraph and UKIP agenda and
:17:52. > :17:58.does not benefit Scotland whatsoever. Even when you say the
:17:59. > :18:02.Labour Party, they were probably more restrictive in government on
:18:02. > :18:08.immigration and the current Tory government, and that is quite
:18:08. > :18:15.something. Totally wrong!Even Jack McConnell, on asylum, when he tried
:18:15. > :18:19.to protest about dawn raids and the detention centre, even the UK
:18:19. > :18:24.Government, the Labour Party government, told him where to go. I
:18:24. > :18:29.think we should control these powers ourselves. We should not confuse
:18:29. > :18:34.immigration and asylum, they are vastly different. If Gordon Brown
:18:34. > :18:39.extend out to be right in terms of EU negotiations, and an independent
:18:39. > :18:48.Scotland was obliged to become part of the Schengen zone, wouldn't that
:18:48. > :18:52.mean border controls between Scotland and the UK? The EU has
:18:52. > :18:54.never been about erecting borders, we are never going to get border
:18:55. > :18:58.guards at Carlisle or Berwick-upon-Tweed. The Common
:18:58. > :19:03.travel area has been there for the Republic of Ireland and the rest of
:19:03. > :19:08.the UK. Why on earth, when common sense dictates... Look, the Scottish
:19:08. > :19:12.Government and UK Government, they got together and signed the
:19:12. > :19:17.Edinburgh Agreement, which said, detailing in black-and-white,
:19:17. > :19:20.irrespective of what the vote is, both governments would respect the
:19:20. > :19:27.result and do what is in the best interest of Scotland and the rest of
:19:27. > :19:30.the United Kingdom. It does not make sense in anybody's logic... That is
:19:30. > :19:37.about the wider negotiation with the European Union. Europe is not about
:19:37. > :19:40.borders, it is bringing people together. The gentleman there.
:19:40. > :19:46.question was basically just asked, but at the moment we are dealing
:19:46. > :19:48.with a lot of things that we think the case now. As has been said,
:19:48. > :19:53.there is a lot of uncertainty about Scotland's's relationship with or
:19:53. > :20:00.without, how do we know what is the case now will continue with showing
:20:00. > :20:06.in, what ease of movement for potential immigrants? The only thing
:20:07. > :20:16.I would say about that is the 2020 question, how much certainty do you
:20:17. > :20:17.
:20:17. > :20:26.have within the United Kingdom? Can you say that eat UK will be within
:20:26. > :20:30.within the EU? Let's deal with this question of certainty. Do we need to
:20:30. > :20:35.accept, Katie Grant, that we will not get answers either from those
:20:35. > :20:41.promoting independence or those same no, we are better off remaining part
:20:41. > :20:44.of the UK? Of course we are not. It was ridiculous of Nicola Sturgeon to
:20:44. > :20:47.ask all those questions, because they could have been asked of an
:20:47. > :20:51.independent Scotland - there cannot be certainty either way, she could
:20:51. > :20:54.not tell who the government of Scotland would be, and she's
:20:54. > :20:59.assuming it would be the SMP, and that is not an assumption she can
:20:59. > :21:08.possibly make. I think that both sides have to accept that there is a
:21:08. > :21:10.lot of uncertainty, but it seems so unnecessary, and in certainty in so
:21:10. > :21:15.many ways. I think that, you know, so many contradictions in the yes
:21:15. > :21:18.campaign's approach, on the one hand we must take control and can only
:21:19. > :21:22.take control of immigration if we become an independent country. On
:21:22. > :21:27.the other hand, we are all going to join together so we will agree
:21:27. > :21:31.anyway. I simply cannot, for the life of me, understand why we need
:21:31. > :21:38.to separate in order to agree about some things like immigration, for
:21:38. > :21:44.example, when we have a Scottish Government. Let me bring in Chas
:21:44. > :21:48.Booth, the business of certainty. If we are not going to get hard facts
:21:48. > :21:52.from either side, how on earth are we meant to make up our minds?
:21:52. > :21:57.true that there is a lot of uncertainty, but as both Katie and
:21:57. > :22:01.Humza Yousaf has said, there are uncertainties on both sides. If we
:22:01. > :22:05.remain part of the United Kingdom, who knows what the UK Government
:22:05. > :22:11.will do? In many respects, a vote for independence preserves many of
:22:11. > :22:19.the institutions we hold most dear - the NHS, which is being privatised
:22:19. > :22:19.by the Tories down south, it is true, Katie! The Tories in the House
:22:19. > :22:24.of Lords consistently, with financial interest in health care
:22:24. > :22:28.companies that will benefit from the privatisation of the NHS, voted for
:22:28. > :22:32.partial privatisation. If we want to retain the NHS, the best way to do
:22:32. > :22:37.that is to vote for independence. The BBC is another institution under
:22:37. > :22:43.attack from Tories at UK level, and yet in Scotland we have consistently
:22:43. > :22:47.valued and preserved the BBC. I think, actually, in many respects, a
:22:47. > :22:52.vote for independence is a vote for a lot of the status quo, a lot of
:22:52. > :22:56.the things that Scots hold most dear. I want to talk about the
:22:56. > :23:00.interventions to the debate today from Gordon Brown and from the
:23:00. > :23:04.Deputy First Minister, Nicola Sturgeon, arguing over, in effect,
:23:04. > :23:07.social justice, Gordon Brown saying that the union was the best way to
:23:07. > :23:12.guarantee that, Nicola Sturgeon saying that independence, for
:23:12. > :23:19.instance, the SNP in power would get rid of the bedroom tax. Let's pick
:23:19. > :23:22.up on that with Gordon Banks, first of all. If Scotland became an
:23:23. > :23:28.independent country, wouldn't you be able to pursue a social justice
:23:28. > :23:32.agenda, perhaps even in partnership with the SNP at Holyrood, and get a
:23:32. > :23:39.lot more of what you want than waiting to eventually get back into
:23:39. > :23:44.power across the UK? The fundamental issue here is that independence is a
:23:44. > :23:47.permanency. Independence is not for a term, it is not for two terms of a
:23:47. > :23:54.government. It is something that Scotland would have to live with for
:23:54. > :23:58.the rest of its days. In the Labour Party, we would argue that the
:23:58. > :24:02.United Kingdom, as a coherent body, has delivered much more to the
:24:02. > :24:07.benefit of the whole of the United Kingdom. We are greater than the sum
:24:07. > :24:12.of our parts. What about in the future? Couldn't you achieve more of
:24:12. > :24:17.the agenda that you want to pursue, and more quickly, if you went for
:24:17. > :24:20.independence? Why should inequality in Edinburgh were you but not in
:24:20. > :24:24.Eastbourne? I think inequality in the United Kingdom is something that
:24:24. > :24:30.should worry me and something that should worry UK politicians, and it
:24:30. > :24:35.does. And I want to end up with the United Kingdom a better and fairer
:24:35. > :24:39.place. The point that Chas made earlier, about independence being
:24:39. > :24:43.the route to keep everything basically as it is, independence to
:24:43. > :24:48.keep the NHS, which is devolved to Scotland as it is already,
:24:48. > :24:52.independence to keep the BBC. The one way to keep the BBC, the one way
:24:52. > :24:56.to keep the pound is to stay in the United Kingdom and the vote no in
:24:56. > :25:00.the referendum. As you tend to do before coming on the programme, I
:25:00. > :25:05.was looking at a clip that Gordon had made to his local school, and he
:25:05. > :25:08.says clearly, and I quote exactly, with independence there would be a
:25:08. > :25:14.surgeons of the Labour Party, an Independent Labour Party in
:25:14. > :25:19.Scotland. -- a resurgence. Absolutely, so if the Labour Party
:25:19. > :25:25.could go back to the values of the old social Labour Party, those
:25:25. > :25:29.values of Keir Hardie, those great men of the labour movement, the
:25:29. > :25:32.Labour Party would go back into that, and we would create social
:25:32. > :25:35.justice. I have a problem with this line that we should care about
:25:35. > :25:39.poverty in Eastbourne and Edinburgh, believing that
:25:39. > :25:42.independence would stop that. I am the minister for international do,
:25:42. > :25:49.and I care just as much about poverty in Malawi as I do as
:25:49. > :25:54.Motherwell, Rwanda and Rutherglen. Just because they are independent
:25:54. > :26:00.countries does not mean that we cannot care about their social
:26:00. > :26:03.condition. We want to do more than care, we want to write these wrongs.
:26:03. > :26:06.Imagine Scotland was a progressive beacon, there would be a massive
:26:06. > :26:11.realignment, including within the Labour Party, and we can show best
:26:11. > :26:17.practice, like we have done with the parliament, the smoking ban, free
:26:17. > :26:23.personal care. Let's bring in more voices from our audience. The lady
:26:23. > :26:29.in the back row and then the lady there. Yeah, just on the Labour
:26:29. > :26:33.Party wanting to have policies that benefit across the UK, I just feel
:26:33. > :26:36.slightly that the previous labour at ministration south of the border
:26:36. > :26:40.have not delivered for Scotland as well as they could have done, and
:26:40. > :26:46.therefore perhaps that is one reason why people in Scotland do not have
:26:46. > :26:50.the confidence or do not have the goodwill anymore, sadly, to care as
:26:50. > :26:55.much as they showed about other parts of the UK. OK, I don't need
:26:55. > :26:59.you to come back on that, other voices from the audience. Gordon
:26:59. > :27:03.talked about the Labour Party and social values and wanting to build a
:27:03. > :27:08.fairer society. We have given the UK Government the chance to build a
:27:08. > :27:11.fairer society, and society has got more unfair, the Pru have got
:27:11. > :27:15.poorer, the rich have got richer, and Scotland is saying, we have had
:27:15. > :27:20.enough of that, that is why we are voting Yes For Scotland and building
:27:20. > :27:27.a wealthier Scotland and having a choice in what we do in the future.
:27:27. > :27:32.The gentleman from this side. just seconding these points, really
:27:32. > :27:37.what we are feeling increasingly is, actually, politics down south of the
:27:37. > :27:42.border at the UK level is really for London and that greater area, and
:27:42. > :27:52.for the North of England and Scotland there is not that much
:27:52. > :27:52.
:27:52. > :28:01.representation for what we value as social justice. It is supporting
:28:01. > :28:06.that point. I have experienced the diversions between the culture in
:28:06. > :28:15.England and the culture in Scotland. I think that has been
:28:15. > :28:19.centred around social justice. Race and immigration come into it. We do
:28:19. > :28:25.not have the culture in Scotland of the United Kingdom Independence
:28:25. > :28:30.party and the we are much prouder of or social justice systems. That
:28:30. > :28:40.divergences of cultures of wishes and wants in the society that has
:28:40. > :28:42.
:28:42. > :28:50.today the biggest boon for independence that I can think of.
:28:50. > :28:53.Yes, it does not matter where you come from. I think because values
:28:53. > :29:02.make transcendent. Let us take control do things to the best
:29:02. > :29:09.interests of those who live here. That is what bothers me. Let us just
:29:09. > :29:13.do things for the people who live here. We are going to become more
:29:13. > :29:19.inward looking and I think that is a real worry. What really bothers me
:29:19. > :29:25.is that some of the rhetoric round the yes campaign is really high in
:29:25. > :29:33.the sky. We all want a wealthy nation, we want it for our children
:29:33. > :29:36.whether the life and the rest of the United Kingdom. We want a Scottish
:29:36. > :29:43.Voice in Westminster as well as Holyrood, so that the whole country
:29:43. > :29:49.pulls together. Of course, people say it does not really work so far,
:29:49. > :29:56.so letters get independence and we may become nicer people. Scotland
:29:56. > :30:01.itself is a very diverse nation. We appear to not represent the whole of
:30:01. > :30:08.Scotland. I think it is a mistake to think that, just because Scotland
:30:08. > :30:13.got independence, somehow it would make us nicer. It does not. I think
:30:13. > :30:19.it is important that Scotland shows leadership. I think the gentleman
:30:19. > :30:23.who said that is the feeling of social justice in Scotland, he is
:30:23. > :30:27.right. Scotland as an independent nation could really sure their
:30:27. > :30:33.weight and promote a more equal society and a more independent angle
:30:33. > :30:39.and good luck to Scotland and follow the lead. I agree with God and that
:30:39. > :30:42.we should care about those who are marginalised in Eastbourne, but the
:30:42. > :30:52.best way to benefit them Scotland showing a leadership role as an
:30:52. > :30:54.
:30:54. > :31:02.independent nation. No, I want to bring in another topic. Is this not
:31:02. > :31:09.really a discussion about what defines Scottish identity quite? Is
:31:09. > :31:18.the social justice agenda not really what this is about? Is it about to
:31:18. > :31:26.be clear about people? There's a society. Scots have an identity. It
:31:26. > :31:29.is about equality and justice and that is what independence is about.
:31:29. > :31:36.That is what Gordon Brown spoke about at the launch of the Labour
:31:36. > :31:46.campaign. I think this is a time for Scottish people to rise up and show
:31:46. > :31:48.
:31:48. > :31:56.leadership. What is to stop us from showing a leadership age and paving
:31:56. > :32:02.the way for the rest of the folk in the United Kingdom? Using the
:32:02. > :32:12.existing powers? Well, I do not see why we have to wait until we are
:32:12. > :32:15.independent. Because of the Scottish Parliament, there is some
:32:15. > :32:23.enlightenment in that regard, but it does not have the powers for the
:32:23. > :32:29.likes of Trident and tax-raising. There is a white elephant in the
:32:29. > :32:36.middle of the room in this room. If you step out the studio tonight most
:32:36. > :32:40.folk are not interested or bored or fed up with it. We are facing
:32:40. > :32:46.another 18 months of this. You are talking about poverty. That is an
:32:46. > :32:50.issue which has today dealt with. The referendum issue is causing a
:32:50. > :32:57.blockage. We have to deal with that far earlier and one way to do that
:32:57. > :33:01.is that the MPs speak up and try and take some action. We have got an MP
:33:01. > :33:09.here tonight. If you want a decision on the union, white do you not
:33:09. > :33:17.resign your seat at Ascot the electorate? I have to resign may
:33:17. > :33:24.seek every five years when we go to the electorate. And now, the next
:33:24. > :33:27.question. If an independent Scotland retains
:33:27. > :33:29.Stirling as part of a currency union with the rest of United Kingdom,
:33:29. > :33:39.what specific individual fiscal levers would be available to the
:33:39. > :33:41.
:33:41. > :33:47.Scottish government? It is a great question. It is not just Scottish
:33:47. > :33:52.government policy. This has been endorsed and seen as the best option
:33:52. > :34:01.by the independent fiscal commission. Set up by the Scottish
:34:01. > :34:07.government! You are surely not questioning the integrity? I am just
:34:07. > :34:12.pointing out that they were set up by the Scottish government. They
:34:12. > :34:20.have said it would be in the interests of both countries. We
:34:20. > :34:28.believe we would be able to, just by reducing by 3%, would get millions
:34:28. > :34:33.of to create jobs. We would also have fiscal levers with regards to
:34:33. > :34:40.getting a better welfare system. That is what it is about. Someone
:34:40. > :34:49.said to me when I was coming and, would you have the United Kingdom
:34:49. > :34:53.Government controlling your interest rates? What a load of rubbish.
:34:53. > :34:59.would not have any representation on the monetary commission. My point is
:34:59. > :35:05.this. Actually, what we would do is work with the United Kingdom
:35:06. > :35:10.Government to find out what is in the best interests of both parties.
:35:10. > :35:20.Monitors have said Scotland would have a place on the committee. That
:35:20. > :35:20.
:35:20. > :35:26.would make sense. But has been said, they may not to this. On your own
:35:26. > :35:34.programme, this was said a couple of times. He did not say no. He did
:35:34. > :35:38.not. That is so much travel and business that goes on between
:35:38. > :35:45.Scotland and the rest of the United Kingdom, it makes perfect sense for
:35:45. > :35:50.Scotland to retain the use of the pound. It is not about whose face is
:35:50. > :36:00.on the currency. It is about the best interests of Scotland. With the
:36:00. > :36:01.
:36:01. > :36:05.fiscal leaders that is sent Scotland would have be worthwhile? We have it
:36:05. > :36:11.in the United Kingdom. Why do we have two separate to create a
:36:11. > :36:17.mechanism to get something back which is maybe fairly similar to
:36:17. > :36:21.what we may have. But without having any of the political control because
:36:21. > :36:26.we would not have any representatives in Westminster. The
:36:26. > :36:31.Bank of England would be focusing on its policies to do with the rest of
:36:31. > :36:39.the United Kingdom. The interest rates in conjunction with the rest
:36:39. > :36:44.of the United Kingdom and Scotland may not have a member only monetary
:36:44. > :36:47.policy commission. You are accepting it would. It sounds like you and
:36:47. > :36:53.accepting that the rest of the United Kingdom would want Scotland
:36:53. > :36:57.to retain Stirling. No, I have no knowledge that negotiations at that
:36:57. > :37:05.point in time would result in Scotland being able to keep the
:37:05. > :37:10.pound. What would you want? What would you want the currency of an
:37:10. > :37:19.independent Scotland to be, if that's what the voters for did for
:37:19. > :37:23.independence? We had accepting that there is going to be a referendum,
:37:23. > :37:28.but it comes down to politicians to work out the best way forward. What
:37:28. > :37:35.do you think the best currency option would be? The best currency
:37:35. > :37:45.option on my wish list would be to keep the pound. There is no
:37:45. > :37:47.
:37:47. > :37:54.guarantee that this will be the case. The evidence from around the
:37:54. > :38:03.world is that we will need fiscal union ultimately. We need to look at
:38:03. > :38:08.the growth of the euro. Is this not the counterargument that there's far
:38:08. > :38:13.less divergences across the United Kingdom and the differences in the
:38:13. > :38:18.European Union? Yes, that is certainly different in many ways,
:38:18. > :38:26.but we would still have to sign a stability pact with the rest of the
:38:26. > :38:30.United Kingdom. I was going to point out that the European bank does not
:38:30. > :38:40.set out its rates according to the strongest country, but amongst all
:38:40. > :38:41.
:38:41. > :38:49.of them. The rates are not just set to benefit England, if that were the
:38:50. > :38:55.case after independence, not the would be set for the entire United
:38:56. > :38:59.Kingdom. I just want to getting one more question here.
:38:59. > :39:02.If the result of the referendum has only a narrow margin in favour, or
:39:02. > :39:12.against, independence, how would the winning side accommodate the views
:39:12. > :39:13.
:39:13. > :39:23.of the large, albeit minority, of voters? Let us start this one.
:39:23. > :39:24.
:39:24. > :39:30.Interestingly enough, we do not have a complete majority on this. When we
:39:30. > :39:33.have told this, around two thirds of our members have been in favour of
:39:33. > :39:38.independence. We have to be honest and open and see that whichever way
:39:38. > :39:44.the vote goes -- and obvious that I am in favour of the yes vote, we
:39:44. > :39:51.have to ensure that we involve everybody from both sides of the
:39:52. > :40:01.argument. Interestingly, the issue of corporation tax was mentioned. I
:40:02. > :40:05.
:40:05. > :40:10.do not see an independent Scotland in a race to have low tax and low
:40:10. > :40:16.support. I would rather see a Scandinavian model. That just shows
:40:16. > :40:23.that even within the yes camp, there's a debate as to the state of
:40:23. > :40:26.an independent Scotland. What we need to separate is the issue of
:40:26. > :40:31.independence and the policies that would be pursued in an independent
:40:31. > :40:35.Scotland. The two are related. Gordon Brown said we should not have
:40:35. > :40:41.independence because it would lead to a cut in corporation tax. That is
:40:41. > :40:49.not the case. In a post-independent Scotland, it may well be that Labour
:40:49. > :40:52.was the largest party. We need to recognise that policies of an
:40:52. > :41:00.independent Scotland and being independent related but separate
:41:00. > :41:03.issues. I think whoever wins has to accept with gays that they are not
:41:03. > :41:10.going to win by a great margin. I would really hope that after words
:41:10. > :41:14.we do not end up with the never-ending situation with the
:41:15. > :41:19.Scottish National party starting again and seeing this will just be
:41:19. > :41:24.for a slight length of time because of the narrowness of the vote. I
:41:24. > :41:28.hope this settles it once and for all. If the Scottish people vote for
:41:28. > :41:33.independence, I will do my very best to make sure I play my part in an
:41:33. > :41:38.independent Scotland in a positive way and I'm sure most people in
:41:38. > :41:43.Scotland would do the same. It is in all our interest to make the country
:41:43. > :41:49.work any positive way. What I really dread is that the narrowness of the
:41:49. > :41:55.vote means that the Scottish National party will never give up.
:41:55. > :42:05.That is the reason for being. So, if the vote goes against them, we're an
:42:05. > :42:11.
:42:11. > :42:18.eagle from the? -- Michael Weir can eagle from the? We could have a
:42:18. > :42:28.situation that policy swing from one party to the other and we could end
:42:28. > :42:29.
:42:29. > :42:34.up with a balance, regardless of who wins. Any sense of policy. Policies
:42:34. > :42:38.will balance out either way and even if we gain independence, the
:42:38. > :42:47.policies of those who wanted to remain in the union will remain in
:42:47. > :42:57.the political arena. What would you do to accommodate those on the other
:42:57. > :42:58.
:42:58. > :43:02.side should you when the debate? there is a yes vote, it will be my
:43:02. > :43:06.duty and the Scottish Government's duty, along with the yes campaigners
:43:06. > :43:10.of many parties, our duty on the 19th of September is to bring
:43:10. > :43:17.everything into that tent, including them in the process of creating and
:43:17. > :43:21.rebuilding a new nation, that will be just as much a task for them as
:43:21. > :43:23.it will be for the Scottish Government, and I look forward to
:43:23. > :43:29.the day when we have Johann Lamont, Willie Rennie, Ruth Davidson, Nicola
:43:29. > :43:32.Sturgeon, Alex Salmond, even Gordon Brown sitting down as Team Scotland,
:43:32. > :43:36.going down to Westminster and saying, we are here to represent
:43:36. > :43:43.Scotland, getting the best deal around the negotiation table. It is
:43:43. > :43:47.imperative we do that the day after. If the result was the other way
:43:47. > :43:51.around? Constitutionally, we have to accept if it is 51-49 in support of
:43:51. > :43:58.independence, Scotland will become an independent country. But the
:43:58. > :44:02.point that Katie makes has real resonance - if it is 51-49 the other
:44:02. > :44:07.way, this argument will keep coming back to us, and it will mean that in
:44:07. > :44:09.Scotland we have our eye off the really important things, the social
:44:09. > :44:15.justice issues, the jobs and the economy, that we talked about
:44:15. > :44:20.earlier, and if Humza will let me finish, after taking the for
:44:20. > :44:24.interrupting him, the real commitment I would like to see here
:44:24. > :44:29.tonight is that we abide by the result and put it to one side and
:44:29. > :44:33.get on building a better and fairer Scotland, and I hope that is a
:44:33. > :44:38.better and fairer Scotland in the United Kingdom. A final quick
:44:38. > :44:41.question from Claire Duncan. What is the preferred national anthem for
:44:41. > :44:45.Scotland after independence? indeed if you want to change the
:44:45. > :44:50.national anthem at the moment! think we should have a national
:44:50. > :44:56.dance and drummers, because I cannot think of any song which does not end
:44:56. > :44:59.up as a drone, rather a drone. Yousaf. I think they should be a
:44:59. > :45:05.national competition. I do not think I would vote in that condition, it
:45:05. > :45:13.is the trickiest minefield for any politician, but my favourite song is
:45:13. > :45:17.Caledonia. How does that go? We are having enough problems trying to
:45:17. > :45:24.name a bridge, never mind a national anthem, but Alex Salmond wants to
:45:24. > :45:31.keep the pound, he wants to keep the Queen, maybe he will want to keep
:45:31. > :45:35.God Save The Queen as well. Chas Booth? As a Republican, this is an
:45:35. > :45:39.area... I would like to give rid of our nonelected head of state. I
:45:39. > :45:47.think a lot has been made of Scotland's legality in nature, our
:45:47. > :45:51.you very much indeed, that is all we have got time for. Thanks to our
:45:51. > :45:54.panel and everyone in our audience for your questions and