:00:15. > :00:20.In Newsnight Scotland, should prisoners be allowed to vote in the
:00:20. > :00:24.referendum? Most of the main parties say no, but there is a noisy
:00:24. > :00:29.minority using legal, moral and compassionate arguments to let some
:00:29. > :00:37.prisoners keep their vote. As the housing market heading for recovery?
:00:37. > :00:42.Is that a good thing? Many countries will regard -- many countries that
:00:42. > :00:47.we regard this story democracies allow their prisoners to vote.
:00:47. > :00:57.Is there an ever-growing argument for change in the UK? A serious
:00:57. > :00:58.
:00:58. > :01:03.debate has been called on the issue. The SNP has dismissed an argument to
:01:03. > :01:12.let prisoners to vote in next year's independence referendum.
:01:12. > :01:18.Andrew Black reports. Today, voters of the future paid a visit to the
:01:18. > :01:22.first Minister's house. Giving 16 and 17-year-olds the vote, as they
:01:22. > :01:28.will have on the independence referendum, has sparked much debate.
:01:28. > :01:32.But now a campaign to extend voting rights to an even more controversial
:01:32. > :01:37.group of people is ramping up. The UK is one of a handful of European
:01:37. > :01:43.countries which does not let any convicted prisoners vote. Both the
:01:43. > :01:50.UK and Scottish governments want to keep it that way. we will now move
:01:50. > :01:56.to the next item of business... MSPs today discussed he would get to
:01:56. > :02:02.vote in the next referendum on independence, some argued that this
:02:02. > :02:05.should be extended to prisoners. this would send a powerful message
:02:05. > :02:13.to prisoners that they remain part of wider Scotland with a stake in
:02:13. > :02:17.the future. To do the opposite is to send precisely the opposite message.
:02:17. > :02:22.Advocate examples in my own constituency, where constituents
:02:22. > :02:28.have been victims of domestic abuse, stocking, anti-social behaviour.
:02:28. > :02:33.Even under the restricted terms proposed by the Liberal Democrats, I
:02:33. > :02:36.am not convinced that people who commit those cranes and have to
:02:36. > :02:42.serve custodial sentences, should have the right to vote in the
:02:42. > :02:46.referendum. Punishment does not seek to deny human dignity to anyone but
:02:46. > :02:51.to restore it, and I think that is the moral case to which the
:02:51. > :03:00.government must respond. Convicted prisoners have sacrificed their
:03:00. > :03:06.entitlement to vote. Prisoners should not be in entitled to vote in
:03:06. > :03:09.the referendum. If someone commits a crime which lands them in prison,
:03:10. > :03:13.the break their contract with society. There were some of the
:03:13. > :03:23.rates which some of us take for granted. Some argued that this view
:03:23. > :03:28.
:03:28. > :03:35.is outdated. I think prisoners are people who have been elated from
:03:35. > :03:39.society -- Ely are needed from society. We would want them to be
:03:39. > :03:42.engaging with society again. To become more responsible citizens. If
:03:42. > :03:46.you give people the opportunity to vote and think about what is going
:03:46. > :03:51.on in Scotland and to think about the future governance of Scotland,
:03:51. > :03:58.that is all part of them thinking about the future and how they are
:03:58. > :04:02.going to contribute to society as responsible citizens. So how do
:04:02. > :04:08.other European countries deal with votes for convicted prisoners? As
:04:08. > :04:17.well as the UK, other countries with a blanket ban in place in include
:04:17. > :04:21.Austria, Bulgaria and Switzerland. Other countries have a mixture of
:04:21. > :04:26.the two policies, for example, in France and Iceland it is linked to
:04:26. > :04:35.the seriousness of the offence. Countries including Germany, Norway
:04:35. > :04:40.and Portugal save revoking the right to vote to those convicted of crimes
:04:40. > :04:45.against the state such as terrorism. Could such a policy change be forced
:04:45. > :04:51.upon the UK? The European Court of human rights says that a blanket ban
:04:51. > :04:55.is illegal. The UK government is for now sticking to its guns, but it has
:04:55. > :05:01.brought former draft legislation which would give MPs the option of
:05:01. > :05:04.giving short-term prisoners the right to vote. Scotland is already
:05:04. > :05:10.counting the cost of falling foul of human rights laws. When thousands of
:05:10. > :05:18.prisoners sued over the now-defunct policy of having to use the potty in
:05:18. > :05:28.a shared cell, ministers had to pay out �11,000 -- �11 million, before
:05:28. > :05:28.
:05:28. > :05:31.legislation put a bar on new cases. Without a doubt there could be a
:05:31. > :05:36.challenge if the legislation that is passing through the parliament at
:05:36. > :05:40.the moment proceeds and is enacted in an unamended form. Then there is
:05:40. > :05:48.no doubt that prisoners will take forward a challenge. They will go to
:05:48. > :05:56.court, they will seek review of their legislation. They will ask for
:05:56. > :06:06.their offending section to be moved because it is out with citizens 's
:06:06. > :06:10.
:06:10. > :06:15.human rights. the motion is therefore agreed to. Today younger
:06:15. > :06:18.voters were given a fort in the referendum on independence. But so
:06:18. > :06:27.far prisoners will not be given the same right.
:06:27. > :06:31.Their main parties who voted against votes per prisoners this afternoon
:06:31. > :06:35.-- votes for prisoners this afternoon to to appear on the show.
:06:35. > :06:42.I'm joined by two people who want to see at least some people given the
:06:42. > :06:52.right to vote. Presumably you do not want all prisoners to have the right
:06:52. > :06:58.
:06:58. > :07:05.to vote. You'll mac -- it does not technically apply to referendums.
:07:05. > :07:07.But what it says is that a blanket ban is not acceptable. To comply
:07:07. > :07:14.with human rights legislation we need to move away from the blanket
:07:14. > :07:17.ban. I am open to a number of ways of doing that. You could have it
:07:17. > :07:24.online to the sentence, seriousness of the fence, you could see that at
:07:24. > :07:32.the end of someone's sentence they reapply. Do you mean before they are
:07:32. > :07:36.released? yes. The blanket ban in relation to the elections is
:07:36. > :07:43.unacceptable. The SNP has said that they want to incorporate strong
:07:43. > :07:49.human rights into a constitution for Scotland. I would like to see that
:07:49. > :07:55.happen as well. It seems bizarre that we begin this road towards
:07:55. > :08:02.independence by taking a less human rights related approach to the
:08:02. > :08:06.referendum. What the Liberal Democrats have proposed today is
:08:06. > :08:16.that we would consider giving all short-term prisoners the right to
:08:16. > :08:21.vote. has short-term?Those serving less than four years. I think that
:08:21. > :08:23.the right to vote is such a fundamental right in a democratic
:08:23. > :08:32.society that we should not remove that right lately. The referendum
:08:32. > :08:36.vote in such a momentous decision to make, a once-in-a-lifetime
:08:36. > :08:41.opportunity. The time is right to open up this debate. I do not
:08:41. > :08:44.believe that everyone will agree with me. Even those people who might
:08:44. > :08:50.see that some prisoners should be given the right to vote, they might
:08:50. > :08:53.draw the line at a different place. I think that is OK. What we need to
:08:53. > :08:59.do is open up the debate and have a mature and sensible debate about
:08:59. > :09:09.where that line lies, because as Patrick says, the blanket ban is not
:09:09. > :09:11.
:09:11. > :09:15.coherent or sensible. we could have a situation where people on very
:09:15. > :09:23.short sentences, Christian, for example, could vote next week, where
:09:23. > :09:27.they could not have voted this week. you could have a situation where
:09:27. > :09:37.someone has been put on the manned while they are waiting for a trial.
:09:37. > :09:37.
:09:37. > :09:42.That time would be knocked off their sentence. There are huge anomalies
:09:42. > :09:46.that arise with the blanket ban. I know that there will be people who
:09:46. > :09:51.just instinctively feel that someone has committed an offence, they
:09:51. > :09:54.should lose their right the same way as they use their liberty. But we
:09:54. > :10:00.use prison in a different way now than we did even if you years ago,
:10:00. > :10:05.so it seems odd that prisoners still a cut-off point, that is still the
:10:05. > :10:09.criterion on which we determine the franchise. What about the point that
:10:09. > :10:14.Annabel Goldie makes, if you want to keep your right to vote, do not get
:10:15. > :10:20.sent to prison? There is a case for that, and other parties will make
:10:20. > :10:24.it. There is some evidence, for example from the Church of Scotland.
:10:24. > :10:29.They argue very clearly that the point of prison, the point of the
:10:29. > :10:36.criminal justice system, is to repay and to mend the broken relationship
:10:36. > :10:40.between the offender and society. The message people should get in
:10:40. > :10:46.prison is, you are part of the society, you are expected to behave
:10:46. > :10:54.as part of the society. The franchise should be part of that
:10:54. > :10:57.message, it should be seeing that prisoners not about undermining or
:10:57. > :11:05.removing human rights, but repealing the relationship of society. Some
:11:05. > :11:09.people might say that it could help, but other people might see
:11:09. > :11:19.that they do not care, other things should be done to rehabilitate
:11:19. > :11:20.
:11:20. > :11:24.prisoners. It is a pragmatic argument. I recently visited Polmont
:11:24. > :11:28.Young offenders Institute. It is populated by people who have lived
:11:28. > :11:33.difficult lives on the edges of society. Some of the most
:11:33. > :11:37.disadvantaged people in Scotland. If we want to stop reoffending, if we
:11:37. > :11:41.want prison to work, everyone people to come out and choose a different
:11:41. > :11:46.path, then we need to make people feel connected to the communities
:11:46. > :11:51.that they are returning to. One small part of that is taking part in
:11:51. > :11:54.this historic vote. Thank you very much indeed.
:11:54. > :12:03.Just because the politicians are arguing about everything else, does
:12:04. > :12:13.not mean that the economy has gone quiet. Some in the housing market
:12:14. > :12:20.
:12:20. > :12:25.are suggesting that the government's market is one in which -- one in
:12:25. > :12:30.which he will take a particular interest. The Royal Institute of
:12:30. > :12:36.chartered surveyors say that demand in the residential market has become
:12:36. > :12:43.the highest for several years. House prices are held to be likely to be
:12:43. > :12:47.rising in the next few months. Newhouse pudding is needed to
:12:47. > :12:52.satisfy the rising demand. Statistics show that house prices
:12:52. > :12:56.are already rising in London and the south-east. One of the reasons for
:12:56. > :13:00.the increase our UK government initiatives to help home buying even
:13:00. > :13:06.though the mortgage guarantee scheme does not come into effect until next
:13:06. > :13:13.year. In Scotland, the Scotland -- the market is also looking more
:13:13. > :13:17.optimistic. Although activity is way below the precrisis normal. And
:13:17. > :13:24.rents are likely to go up because of the shortage of supply. That is bad
:13:24. > :13:34.news if you are waiting to get into the housing market.
:13:34. > :13:35.
:13:35. > :13:40.I am joined now by Keith Denholm of Allied Surveyors. I'm always amazed
:13:40. > :13:45.by the ability of surveyors and estate agents to forecast higher
:13:45. > :13:50.prices in the middle of a slump. But do you think there is some basis to
:13:50. > :13:54.say that the heaviest falls in the housing market might be over?
:13:54. > :13:59.think in certain sectors of the country, they might be. We are
:13:59. > :14:04.starting to see some early positive signs of improvement in demand. I'm
:14:04. > :14:09.not seeing them in pricing yet, but I am seeing improvement in what
:14:09. > :14:15.people want to purchase and can -- transactions are taking a shorter
:14:15. > :14:19.time. There is extreme regional disparity. Even looking at your
:14:19. > :14:25.figures, house prices are going up in London and the south-east. They
:14:25. > :14:30.are either going down or flat everywhere else. The land Registry
:14:30. > :14:34.in England which is the most reliable figure, shows that prices
:14:34. > :14:41.are going up in London 9% last year. They were pretty much flat
:14:41. > :14:45.everywhere else. I think you have to look at the property market which is
:14:45. > :14:49.different in all parts of the country and even within cities.
:14:49. > :14:52.There are great variances in property prices and how that market
:14:52. > :15:00.performance. To look at London and the south-east in isolation is not
:15:00. > :15:05.fair. When you look at the rest of the UK, it is totally different and
:15:05. > :15:10.has different economic factors. what I find odd about this is that
:15:10. > :15:17.one might have thought that given that London was such a big financial
:15:17. > :15:21.centre and we had a financial crisis -- financial crash in 2008, that
:15:21. > :15:26.that would iron out some of the disparities between London and the
:15:26. > :15:32.rest of the country. But in fact, the opposite seems to be happening.
:15:32. > :15:42.The inability of people to go to London and buy a property is more
:15:42. > :15:47.extreme than ever. There are many other factors. That -- these factors
:15:47. > :15:51.have led to London and the south-east improving. Location,
:15:51. > :15:56.availability of transport to other parts of the world and Europe, the
:15:56. > :16:02.natural attractions that London has as an economy in comparison to other
:16:02. > :16:11.parts of the country. I am sure that the good burghers of Edinburgh who
:16:11. > :16:15.have their own financial centre and who are all aware of that was rather
:16:15. > :16:23.like it that there was evidence of Edinburgh doing a London. But there
:16:23. > :16:27.isn't. There are still some received positive bits of news coming out of
:16:27. > :16:31.the Edinburgh property market. Recently, there were a lot more
:16:31. > :16:37.transactions in comparison to other parts of Scotland. So Edinburgh is
:16:37. > :16:41.performing reasonably well. Is there any reason why anyone other than
:16:41. > :16:46.people in negative equity and estate agents should welcome a return to
:16:46. > :16:52.rising prices? It hasn't happened yet, but is there any reason why we
:16:52. > :16:57.should welcome this? There are many reasons why a confident and strong
:16:57. > :17:02.property market helps the economy. People will come into a house and
:17:02. > :17:07.want to spend money on refurbishment and modernisation. But surely we
:17:07. > :17:12.don't want to return to the price rises we were seeing before? Know,
:17:12. > :17:18.an overheated market is not an healthy -- not a healthy market to
:17:18. > :17:22.the end. A positive market is what we would like to see. It allows
:17:22. > :17:32.people to buy with confidence and the market to move forward. So you
:17:32. > :17:36.wouldn't see -- like to see a room return to the bubble? 9% in a year
:17:36. > :17:44.in London has bubble written all over it. I would not like to comment
:17:44. > :17:50.on that. We will leave it there. on that. We will leave it there.
:17:50. > :17:57.Now, tomorrow 's front pages. Salmond, yes vote is the only way to
:17:57. > :18:07.keep the Scots in the EU. This is the Scottish Daily Mail.
:18:07. > :18:08.