:00:14. > :00:18.well, that, as we have seen tonight, Tonight, does Britain have a future
:00:18. > :00:23.in Europe? It does not, what does that mean for Scotland's place in
:00:23. > :00:26.Europe? We hear from a former Irish Prime Minister and the current
:00:26. > :00:30.Scottish first Minister about SNP plans for Scottish membership of the
:00:30. > :00:35.youth mushrooming that is what Scottish voters want. -- ship of the
:00:35. > :00:39.EU. Once a member of the church in our broken man, we ask why the Pope
:00:39. > :00:44.has ordered Cardinal O'Brien into Excel. Good evening. As the
:00:44. > :00:51.Conservative Party engages in its latest contortion of Europe, what
:00:51. > :00:53.does it mean for Scotland 's elation ship with Europe two 130 Tories
:00:53. > :01:00.events to your scepticism tonight, supporting the amendments to the
:01:00. > :01:09.Queen's Speech. Tonight, the former Irish Prime Minister, John Bruton,
:01:09. > :01:13.has backed Alex Salmond, -- Alex Salmond's... He has told Newsnight
:01:13. > :01:15.Scotland that the process could be completed within 18 months. John
:01:15. > :01:25.Bruton think the formal treaty of accession would be required. Glen
:01:25. > :01:38.
:01:38. > :01:41.Campbell has been to Dublin to speak member of the European Union. It has
:01:41. > :01:45.prospered in the EU and was rescued by it when the crash came. In the
:01:45. > :01:52.Irish parliament, you would struggle to find a serious argument for exit.
:01:52. > :01:57.This former Prime Minister once Scotland to remain in the EU, too,
:01:57. > :01:59.whatever happens in the independence referendum. I would like to keep
:01:59. > :02:06.Scotland and, as an Irish person. I think the contribution Scotland
:02:06. > :02:09.could make is enormous. The Scottish government thinks it should be
:02:09. > :02:15.possible to negotiate continued membership of the European Union in
:02:15. > :02:20.the 18 months between a yes vote in the point of independence. Is that
:02:20. > :02:24.realistic? the attitude of the rest of the UK would be important. The
:02:24. > :02:30.attitude of the other member states would be important. When it comes to
:02:30. > :02:33.admitting a new member, Scotland would not become a new member, as an
:02:33. > :02:38.independent entity. Every one of the existing members has the right to
:02:38. > :02:43.say yes or no. This is a unanimous the session. There are certain
:02:43. > :02:48.criteria that have to be fulfilled. Could that be done in 18 months? I
:02:48. > :02:54.think it probably could. And here is why they take the view. The end of
:02:54. > :02:58.the day, it is important to reflect on the fact that the European Union,
:02:58. > :03:02.ultimately, while it is based on rules and law, is a practical
:03:02. > :03:09.political enterprise. It works on the basis of mutual interests and
:03:09. > :03:14.compromise. Condom is as are always found, sometimes with a bit of
:03:14. > :03:17.suspense involved, but they are always found. Is a former Prime
:03:17. > :03:21.Minister, John Bruton does not speak for Ireland, which currently holds
:03:21. > :03:25.the presidency of the European Union. But as someone who went on to
:03:25. > :03:28.work for the EU for five years as it's in Bassett to the United
:03:29. > :03:35.States, he knows a great deal about how the European Union actually
:03:35. > :03:42.works. In Edinburgh, his assessment on Scottish membership of the Euro
:03:43. > :03:48.was welcomed by the first Minister. There is agreement that 18 months is
:03:48. > :03:51.a realistic timescale. Whatever the final procedure, there is agreement
:03:51. > :03:56.and the issue is almost over as a debate. That is a realistic
:03:56. > :04:02.timescale and the debate is to negotiate our position within
:04:02. > :04:10.Europe. Others are more conscious -- others are more cautious. I think
:04:10. > :04:15.others would want Scotland to be tested. Every other EU country has a
:04:15. > :04:20.vote on that. They would have to ratify the inclusion of a new state.
:04:20. > :04:25.The time involved and that is longer than people think. Back in London,
:04:25. > :04:32.the T-shirt says that the possibility of a UK referendum is
:04:32. > :04:42.exercising politicians than the debate over Scotland's future --
:04:42. > :04:44.Taiosach. my concern is an Irish person is more the risk of the UK
:04:45. > :04:50.leading European Union. Would we have two introduce passport control
:04:50. > :04:54.for the first time ever in our history, if the UK wanted to keep
:04:54. > :04:57.Bulgarian or other EU immigrants out? If there was the possibility of
:04:57. > :05:01.them entering the UK through Ireland, would we have two really
:05:01. > :05:06.introduce passport controls? What would that do to community relations
:05:06. > :05:10.between the communities in the reconciliation in Ireland, which the
:05:10. > :05:19.Good Friday agreement, and the Queens visit has done so much to
:05:19. > :05:25.improve? And is any thought been giving -- being given to the thought
:05:25. > :05:29.of what it would do to the economy of these islands? David Cameron
:05:29. > :05:32.wants to renegotiate the UK's membership of the EU club before
:05:32. > :05:37.holding an in-out referendum. By then, Scotland will have decided
:05:37. > :05:47.whether or not to follow Ireland to independence from the UK, and EU
:05:47. > :05:54.
:05:54. > :05:59.for external affairs, Fiona Hyslop, and by Labour's Ken McIntosh, speaks
:05:59. > :06:06.for Labour on these matters. This tide is not matched John Bruton's
:06:06. > :06:09.but there we are. On the issue of Scotland joining the EU, I am
:06:09. > :06:15.completely confused. Why do not understand the disagreement between
:06:15. > :06:18.you two. Everyone agrees that the EU is unlikely not to once Scotland as
:06:18. > :06:23.a member but everyone agrees that there would have to be some sort of
:06:23. > :06:30.process which would have to be ratified by the other member states
:06:30. > :06:34.for Scotland to take a seat. What is it that you are arguing about?
:06:34. > :06:42.terms of the process, John Bruton is correct in identifying that an 18
:06:42. > :06:48.month timescale from a yes vote to 2016, where you would have a legal
:06:48. > :06:53.responsibility... 18 months, you know, he says one thing and other
:06:53. > :07:01.people say another. So do the legal academics. Do you disagree on
:07:01. > :07:05.anything about this? Had not discussed this with ten. well, do
:07:05. > :07:08.you? the difficulty is that the SNP position has changed. I'm not sure
:07:08. > :07:13.what would be disagreeing with. The SNP used to assert that the bishop
:07:13. > :07:17.was automatic in-out not only that they say that they have legal
:07:17. > :07:22.opinion. They went accords to defend that legal opinion. you are
:07:22. > :07:28.misrepresenting things. I think they have accepted that it is a matter
:07:28. > :07:34.for negotiation. We have reached that place. you agree that? we think
:07:34. > :07:41.it is on the detail of that. When you going to ask for legal advice?
:07:41. > :07:48.It might in us. We have received legal advice. That is correct.
:07:48. > :07:52.what is it? well, no government would disclose that but what we have
:07:52. > :07:58.said and Nicola Sturgeon said this in October, is that the white paper
:07:58. > :08:02.will set out the proposals of how this would be achieved. Euro you are
:08:02. > :08:06.interrupting me. I'm trying to answer your question. The important
:08:06. > :08:11.thing is that everyone agrees that the idea of negotiating from
:08:11. > :08:16.continuing membership, the details of the membership, that is the way
:08:16. > :08:22.forward. Increasingly, we have had the recommendation from the United
:08:22. > :08:27.Kingdom's legal academics that as agreed with that. The important
:08:27. > :08:32.thing is to do this from a continuing membership position.
:08:32. > :08:37.you have legal advice but you would not tell us what it is? Neither
:08:37. > :08:40.would the UK government. you are asking that the government makes a
:08:40. > :08:47.formal approach, but you will not tell us what your own legal advice
:08:48. > :08:51.is? I think it is important for the UK government to agree with the
:08:51. > :08:54.European Union to look at that process. Think it is important.
:08:55. > :08:59.Everybody is now agreeing that the period between a yes vote in
:08:59. > :09:05.September of 2014 and legal independence in 2016 is the correct
:09:05. > :09:09.timescale. Can we talk less about the process and more about the
:09:09. > :09:12.important thing is that we can gain. Why was in Dublin last week in the
:09:13. > :09:18.biggest threat to Scotland's jobs and interests in relation to what
:09:18. > :09:24.John Bruton said, is the UK's threats to take Scotland out of
:09:25. > :09:28.Europe. Alex Salmond has a point, arguing that the other way to ensure
:09:28. > :09:32.Scotland stays in the European Union is to vote for independence because
:09:32. > :09:38.you can perfectly imagine a situation where if there was no vote
:09:39. > :09:42.next year, then there could, in theory, in 2017 be a vote for the UK
:09:42. > :09:47.to leave the European Union. And it is possible to imagine a situation
:09:47. > :09:51.where people in Scotland vote yes to stay in in the European Union, and
:09:51. > :09:57.people in the south of England vote to get out. And we end up leaving.
:09:57. > :10:01.Alex Salmond has an argument. not convinced that follow. This is
:10:01. > :10:10.the commission upon speculation and assertion after assertion. He
:10:10. > :10:13.described his position as this. He is asserting two things. He is
:10:13. > :10:17.suggesting that the Scottish people would vote to leave the UK, but keep
:10:17. > :10:21.the pound, and then we would vote to stay in the EU, but not keep the
:10:21. > :10:27.euro. I'm not entirely sure that that position is actually tenable or
:10:27. > :10:32.illegal. Fiona Hyslop is not suggesting we have a vote on that. I
:10:32. > :10:38.am saying that if people reject independence, it is quite
:10:38. > :10:41.conceivable that we could be out of the EU by 2017 because Britain has
:10:42. > :10:45.voted to leave the European Union, and therefore Alex Salmond has a
:10:46. > :10:50.point when he says that one way of guaranteeing that Scotland is in the
:10:50. > :10:54.European Union is to vote yes to independence. You say it is an
:10:54. > :10:58.assertion but it is not an unreasonable proposition to say that
:10:58. > :11:04.Labour will not win the next election. You would concede that it
:11:04. > :11:11.is not a guarantee. Wires are definitely the case that Scotland
:11:11. > :11:16.would stay in the EU? the Tories have voted to night that they want
:11:16. > :11:19.to see an opportunity to get the UK out of Europe. The other way you can
:11:19. > :11:24.guarantee continuing membership of the U2 protect jobs and services is
:11:24. > :11:30.going to be a yes vote, because in terms of the consensus in Scotland,
:11:30. > :11:35.whether it is political parties or the majority of Parliament...
:11:35. > :11:38.the guarantee is the democratic will of the people? I have no difficulty
:11:38. > :11:44.being guaranteed by the democratic will of the Scottish people, but I
:11:44. > :11:48.would be more interested in this legal advice. What I would as is
:11:48. > :11:51.whether you would publish, given we are going to have a referendum next
:11:51. > :11:55.year, why won't you publish the terms of the legal advice before the
:11:55. > :11:59.Reverend in Scotland? Because surely it is pretty central to the argument
:11:59. > :12:08.you are making, and the Scottish people have arrived to see that
:12:08. > :12:15.legal opinion. no government is going to break precedent like that.
:12:15. > :12:18.It is confidential. You were demanding that the UK government
:12:18. > :12:21.made a formal approach for legal advice but you were telling the
:12:21. > :12:26.people of Scotland that they are not allowed to know your own legal
:12:26. > :12:29.advice. You're complaining there is no transparency. Euro the important
:12:29. > :12:33.thing is the white paper that will set out the terms for the
:12:33. > :12:36.independence proposal, and it will be consistent with the legal advice
:12:36. > :12:41.that we have received. That is the reassurance you are looking for and
:12:41. > :12:44.that is the reassurance promised by Nicola Sturgeon? Is this the same
:12:44. > :12:50.reassurance that the first Minister made when he said in terms of the
:12:50. > :12:54.debate that he had already got these commitments? this scenario, I would
:12:54. > :12:59.say that Alex Salmond has a point to insure staying in the EU, because
:12:59. > :13:05.you could imagine Britain voting to leave the use in Scotland still
:13:05. > :13:13.being a member of the UK Mac it is important we retain membership. That
:13:13. > :13:17.is putting the UK in smoke. What would happen to the currency union
:13:17. > :13:22.two what would happen to the currency union? it is in the
:13:22. > :13:26.interests of Scotland that the UK stays within the union. But you are
:13:26. > :13:31.now trying to deny the same scenario he is trying to deny. What happens
:13:31. > :13:37.to your currency union? I'm trying to argue that it is in the interest
:13:37. > :13:42.of everyone in the UK to stay in the EU. We would want their -- we would
:13:42. > :13:47.want to be a member. But you have argued that the only way to ensure
:13:47. > :13:50.that Scotland stays in the EU is to vote for independence. And what a
:13:50. > :13:56.strong position to be on to argue that point. If we vote for
:13:56. > :14:01.independence in Britain votes to leave the EU, that is the idea of
:14:01. > :14:06.currency union up in smoke. Currency unions will take place after we have
:14:06. > :14:08.the vote. you are saying it could be possible that Britain leads the
:14:08. > :14:14.European Union and you have a currency union with the UK? How
:14:14. > :14:24.would that supposed -- how would that work? we think keeping the UK
:14:24. > :14:32.
:14:32. > :14:39.in the union is an important thing to do. Will you back the SNP demand
:14:39. > :14:47.that the British government formally approaches the European commission
:14:47. > :14:56.and asks for its guidance on what the process should be? You are
:14:56. > :15:00.seeing she should publish the legal advice. I will not back calls from
:15:00. > :15:08.the SNP that will bring us one step closer to independence. We should
:15:08. > :15:17.stick with the UK and stick with the pound. We will have two me that
:15:17. > :15:20.there. - - we will have two leave it there. A few weeks ago he was about
:15:20. > :15:26.to head to Rome to elect a successor to Benedict the 16th.
:15:26. > :15:33.Which means today Cardinal Keith O'Brien could have been Pope.
:15:33. > :15:42.Instead he is a broken man will stop he has been told to quit his home in
:15:42. > :15:45.East Lothian and go to exile. During his time as Britain's most
:15:45. > :15:51.senior Roman Catholic cleric and leader of the Scottish Catholic
:15:51. > :15:54.Church Cardinal Keith O'Brien was never far from the public eye. Since
:15:54. > :16:00.stepping down in February amid allegations of inappropriate
:16:00. > :16:04.behaviour towards priests dating to the 19 80s he is rarely seen. Now
:16:04. > :16:08.the Vatican says he is leaving Scotland altogether, spending
:16:08. > :16:12.several months away for the purpose of spiritual renewal and clear. But
:16:12. > :16:16.the journalist who broke the story about the Cardinals conduct says
:16:16. > :16:24.this will not help the Church. Does not matter whether he is in Scotland
:16:24. > :16:28.or not. This is about due process. This is about giving recognition to
:16:28. > :16:33.the people who have made complaints about his behaviour. If the Catholic
:16:33. > :16:39.Church think that by putting him out of our site for a few months that
:16:40. > :16:43.will put him out of mind, they are mistaken. The Cardinal's fall from
:16:43. > :16:46.grace came after it was revealed that three priests and a former
:16:46. > :16:52.priest made allegations against him. He later said that his standards
:16:52. > :16:57.have fallen with the standards expected. The revelation came just
:16:57. > :17:01.days after Cardinal O'Brien joked about his chances of becoming Pope
:17:01. > :17:05.and of a happy retirement to this Church House in East Lothian.
:17:05. > :17:15.is no knowing what God make do, but I will be more than happy to get
:17:15. > :17:20.
:17:20. > :17:30.back to Edinburgh. To retire, yes. Today a friend of the Cardinal said
:17:30. > :17:38.
:17:38. > :17:40.he was prepared to fight the Vatican happen. The Vatican says it will
:17:40. > :17:47.agree any condition regarding the future arrangements of Cardinal
:17:47. > :17:49.O'Brien. I enjoyed by Stephen McGinty of the
:17:49. > :17:58.Scotsman who writes on Church matters.
:17:58. > :18:06.# Wrote I am joined now by Stephen McGinty.
:18:06. > :18:16.The Vatican has said, out. Effectively. Cardinal O'Brien had
:18:16. > :18:16.
:18:16. > :18:22.left initially, but had returned. The only person in Church terms who
:18:22. > :18:30.can tell Cardinal to do is the Pope will stop when he reappeared and
:18:30. > :18:40.announced that he would continue with his retirement plans, the
:18:40. > :18:40.
:18:40. > :18:50.president of the bishops conference pointed out what had happened. We do
:18:50. > :18:51.
:18:51. > :19:00.not know if this was preplanned, or whether because he was back on the
:19:01. > :19:06.front pages, forced the Vatican to take action. Can you stop someone
:19:06. > :19:13.being a Cardinal or is it like being president of the latest state?
:19:13. > :19:22.Technically the Pope can remove the Red Hat from him. It is unlikely,
:19:22. > :19:25.but he does have the power to do that. But the most likely thing with
:19:25. > :19:31.the that pressure may be put on him to voluntarily resigned. Even that
:19:31. > :19:41.is not likely will stop is this wise, the way they are handling
:19:41. > :19:43.
:19:43. > :19:51.this? If we are going to have a new approach, flinging them out of the
:19:51. > :19:58.country is not the best way to do it. He is not being given another
:19:58. > :20:08.diocese, which is what happened in the past. Openness and
:20:08. > :20:18.accountability might be more in order. The bottom line is we will
:20:18. > :20:19.
:20:19. > :20:24.not see a full documented report published by the Catholic Church.
:20:24. > :20:31.Should there be an enquiry? My understanding is there will not be
:20:31. > :20:37.an enquiry. He has admitted what happened. Because of that there was
:20:37. > :20:42.no need for an investigation. My understanding is that they are
:20:42. > :20:47.waiting, the Pope has made this decision to send him away for a few
:20:47. > :20:52.months, and eventually they will have to find some way to bring him
:20:52. > :20:59.back to Scotland. Looking at this from the other side, there is an
:21:00. > :21:06.opportunity for the Catholic Church to handle this in a more transparent
:21:06. > :21:15.way. Some people would argue that the fact that the Pope has said that
:21:15. > :21:25.this is what is happening and has been a public announcement, the last
:21:25. > :21:26.
:21:26. > :21:36.thing - - the last time this happened was in the 1990s, but even
:21:36. > :21:38.
:21:38. > :21:46.in that case the Red Hat was not removed will stop - -.
:21:46. > :21:56.They had a discussion between 1962 and 1965. That was the second
:21:56. > :21:56.
:21:56. > :22:06.Vatican council. The laity would say that this should be discussed.
:22:06. > :22:10.