:00:02. > :00:09.and wait, but we have to get on with it. Minister, thank you very much
:00:10. > :00:19.indeed. Thank you. Tonight on Newsnight Scotland, a
:00:20. > :00:22.
:00:22. > :00:26.raucous reception in Edinburgh for the UKIP leader, Nigel Farage.
:00:26. > :00:28.Is this sort of thing typical of any strand of political feeling north of
:00:28. > :00:30.the border? Also tonight, the Kirk gets ready to
:00:30. > :00:36.decide on gay ministers. Could the Church of Scotland split,
:00:36. > :00:39.and in our increasingly secular society would it really matter?
:00:39. > :00:42.Good evening. Nigel Farage visited Edinburgh this
:00:42. > :00:45.afternoon and was given a noisy and unpleasant reception by a group of
:00:45. > :00:46.demonstrators. He wondered out loud if the
:00:46. > :00:51.demonstration was simply anti-English.
:00:51. > :00:57.This short report contains some unsavoury language. It all began
:00:57. > :01:03.peacefully enough. Over a pint in an Edinburgh pub, Nigel Farage was keen
:01:03. > :01:06.to talk politics. He has pushed Europe to the top of the political
:01:06. > :01:11.agenda. , and, after his breakthrough in English council
:01:11. > :01:16.elections, he was in the capital to attract more support in Scotland.
:01:16. > :01:20.The entire Edinburgh political class wants Scotland to be part of a
:01:20. > :01:24.political union run from Brussels. We don't want that. We want the
:01:24. > :01:31.United Kingdom to be an independent country. Yes, with devolved powers
:01:31. > :01:40.for Scotland and for Wales and for Northern Ireland. As he left the pub
:01:40. > :01:48.on the Royal Mile he was met by a hostile crowd of Edinburgh students.
:01:48. > :01:53.Some accused his party of having a well documented history of racism.
:01:53. > :01:57.We are not anti-immigrant. Yes, you are? We are not anti-immigrant.In
:01:57. > :02:07.what sense? We believe at immigration running at 50,000 not
:02:07. > :02:08.
:02:08. > :02:13.250,000 or half a million a year. We have never ever ever anywhere had
:02:13. > :02:18.this sort of response, ever. Anywhere. Clearly this is
:02:18. > :02:25.anti-British and anti-English. That is what I'm getting. They hate the
:02:25. > :02:30.union back. Back. -- Union Jack. Maybe that is what it's about.
:02:30. > :02:38.Having tried and failed to make his exit by taxi, the UKIP leader was
:02:38. > :02:44.forced back into the pub and police barricaded the doors. Eventually he
:02:44. > :02:49.was escort into a police van and taken away to a dinner with
:02:49. > :02:55.potential UKIP donors. The party spokesman later insisted Mr Farage
:02:55. > :03:00.wasn't left shaken by the incident. I'm joined now from Edinburgh by
:03:00. > :03:03.Severin Carrell of the Guardian, who was there. Who were these people who
:03:03. > :03:07.were demonstrating? There was a mixture of people. I spoke to
:03:07. > :03:12.student leaders from Edinburgh University and Aberdeen. There were
:03:12. > :03:15.people from the radical Scottish Independence Movement there as well.
:03:16. > :03:23.There was a fair mixture of different people with different
:03:23. > :03:28.agendas and different backgrounds. Right. How raucous was it? At times
:03:28. > :03:33.it was pretty intense. It was very, you know, also times aggressive. At
:03:33. > :03:37.times it was relatively good human Order, in the context of a raucous
:03:37. > :03:43.demonstration of that kind. There wasn't any actual violence, there
:03:43. > :03:48.are often occasions where there have been, you know, very heated and
:03:48. > :03:52.rigorous exchanges of views that do end up with blows being exchanged or
:03:53. > :03:57.things being thrown or spitting. There was none of that at all. It
:03:57. > :04:01.was mostly verbal. Some of it was abusive, no doubt about it what so
:04:01. > :04:07.ever. Some of it was good human Order. There was a sense of theatre
:04:07. > :04:16.about it. As if people were acting out their normal parts, if you like.
:04:16. > :04:21.Yes, shouting "scum" doesn't sound a Nazi and racist, doesn't sound very
:04:21. > :04:26.good humoured to me? Farage was interviewed this evening on another
:04:26. > :04:32.broadcaster's show. He said, he had encountered things of this elk
:04:32. > :04:39.before on student campuses and had encountered hostile crowds. The
:04:39. > :04:43.problem was that he hadn't encountered a hostile crowd of that
:04:43. > :04:50.consistency. It continued and went on and on. Part of the story wasn't
:04:50. > :04:54.only that the crowd was there, he made a tactical error in trying to
:04:54. > :04:59.hold a press conference in the pub in the centre of Edinburgh with no
:04:59. > :05:02.security or effort to gauge whether that was an intelligent move. I
:05:02. > :05:06.don't think the Scottish police force called it cleverly. They
:05:06. > :05:10.didn't have enough officers there. If they reviewed what happened there
:05:10. > :05:15.this evening, senior police officers will say, you should not have done
:05:15. > :05:20.that, you should have done this. might have been a tactical error
:05:20. > :05:24.having a press conference in a pub. He appeared there to be trying to
:05:24. > :05:30.have alcivilised conversation with these people? Up to a point he was.
:05:31. > :05:35.You know, there is a huge gulf of ideology and philosophy between both
:05:35. > :05:39.sides. I'm not sure they will ever have a meeting of the minds no
:05:39. > :05:44.matter how much either side would want to have a debate. At it from
:05:44. > :05:49.the outside, there is a legitimate right of protest? Yes.There is the
:05:49. > :05:53.free speech of someone like Nigel Farage and his freedom to travel
:05:53. > :06:00.around Edinburgh. Do you think... I mean that looked like the kind of
:06:00. > :06:04.thing we see with organisations with the BNP. Was a line crossed there or
:06:04. > :06:08.was that perfectly legitimate? have picked it up watching on
:06:08. > :06:11.Twitter in particular a lot of debate between senior political
:06:11. > :06:17.figures and journalists about whether it was one of those moments
:06:17. > :06:20.that did cross the line. And, I mean frankly I think it's a bit 50/50.
:06:20. > :06:25.You can argue it both ways in my view. I want to ask you as well, I
:06:25. > :06:30.mean you work for a newspaper which is published in London. Will this be
:06:30. > :06:34.seen in the south-east where he is an MEP as anti-English racism in
:06:34. > :06:38.Scotland? He is spinning it like that. No doubt about that. There
:06:38. > :06:42.were elements of the crowd and dispute which had over tones about
:06:42. > :06:45.as if his politics were foreign to Scotland. That will be problematic.
:06:45. > :06:50.There is undoubtedly the case a number of people will be thinking
:06:50. > :06:53.there is an issue here about nationalist conflicts. However,
:06:54. > :06:58.there is also a huge number of people south of the border who will
:06:58. > :07:03.look at what happened in Edinburgh saying, good on you, we would like
:07:03. > :07:05.to do that as well. Thank you very much for joining us.
:07:05. > :07:08.Now, the General Assembly of the Kirk starts this weekend amid
:07:08. > :07:11.speculation that a decision about the ordination of openly gay
:07:11. > :07:16.ministers may cause a significant split in the membership.
:07:16. > :07:18.The issue's been bubbling away for four years now and is expected to
:07:18. > :07:20.come to a head on Monday. Following the Catholic Church's
:07:20. > :07:22.recent high profile problems, there are questions about the role of the
:07:22. > :07:31.churches in modern Scotland. We'll discuss that shortly, but
:07:31. > :07:34.first here's Andrew Black. For centuries the Church of Scotland
:07:34. > :07:44.played a central role in society, but under pressure to see more
:07:44. > :07:49.relevant in today's world, the Kirk is asking itself what it stands for.
:07:49. > :07:54.The current dilemma facing the church goes back to 2009 with the
:07:55. > :07:59.appointment of an openingly gay minister to Queen's Cross Church in
:07:59. > :08:05.Aberdeen. He was backed by most of his congregation and by a vote of
:08:05. > :08:10.the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland. Despite the show of
:08:11. > :08:16.support, the decision resulted in protest. At the time, Mr Rennie
:08:17. > :08:22.expressed his sadness. I have been personally hurt. It has made life
:08:22. > :08:28.pretty stressful. But at the end of the day, I felt God's dmaul my o
:08:28. > :08:32.life to ministry. I felt God's call to the church in Aberdeen. The
:08:32. > :08:37.church responded to that to. Sometimes you have to be prepared to
:08:37. > :08:43.endure a bit of heat for what you think is right. The issue returned
:08:43. > :08:48.at the Kirk's gathering in 2011. It voted to accept some gay and lesbian
:08:48. > :08:54.clergy for some that was the final straw. To try to conduct myself in a
:08:54. > :09:00.manner in line with scriptures was to do something that was met with a
:09:00. > :09:06.great deal of pressure and I would go as far as to say intimidation
:09:06. > :09:11.from the Church of Scotland. Reverend Paul Gibson left the Church
:09:11. > :09:17.of Scotland over the decision. He warns the Kirk is failing its
:09:17. > :09:22.followers. If the Church of Scotland continues on this conjectory, if ne
:09:22. > :09:27.genuinely exists for the Christian good of Scotland, not for the good
:09:27. > :09:33.of Scotland in whatever some unbelieving person might define good
:09:33. > :09:37.to be, but if it exists for the Christian good of Scotland, it
:09:37. > :09:42.absolutely must reverse, unconditionally and fully the
:09:42. > :09:47.conjectory that it has set itself upon because it cannot stand with
:09:47. > :09:52.any integrity in a Christian sense whilst walking in a direction that
:09:52. > :10:02.is away from the Bible and is, therefore, away from the lordship of
:10:02. > :10:08.
:10:08. > :10:12.the one who is King of Kings, Jesus congregation or St George's Church
:10:12. > :10:19.in Glasgow left the Church of Scotland. It was followed by another
:10:19. > :10:23.in Aberdeen. Having put the issue for two years, the General assembly
:10:23. > :10:29.will next week once again consider the issue of homosexuality in the
:10:29. > :10:34.ministry. At the centre of the debate is this 94 page report
:10:34. > :10:40.produced by the church. It does not offer any recommendations as such,
:10:40. > :10:45.but it has set out to different parts that the Kirk might take.
:10:45. > :10:49.One would allow the ordination of gay and lesbian ministers and civil
:10:49. > :10:53.partnerships. The other would reject that option, favouring a more
:10:53. > :10:58.traditional view with an emphasis on marriage between one man and one
:10:58. > :11:05.woman. Whatever's decided, some fear a
:11:05. > :11:10.major fallout, but not everyone says it must be that way. The Church of
:11:10. > :11:15.Scotland has always had different views within it, and I hope that
:11:15. > :11:22.will continue. So I would say to people who are uncomfortable with
:11:22. > :11:31.that decision, if that is where the church goes, then to stay, and it
:11:31. > :11:36.will make the church a better place if it has a variety of views and
:11:36. > :11:40.opinions on theological, political and social matters. But there is
:11:40. > :11:44.still no guarantee of a final decision at Monday's General
:11:44. > :11:50.assembly. In typical Kirk fashion there is an option for pausing for
:11:50. > :11:55.further reflections, which could delay things for yet another year.
:11:55. > :12:01.I am joined by the history Professor Callum Brown Brown, and in Edinburgh
:12:01. > :12:09.by another chronicler of the Kirk, Harry Reid. Do you expect the church
:12:09. > :12:12.to split over this? No, I think there are already divisions and they
:12:12. > :12:17.will continue whatever happens. I don't think it is a national church
:12:17. > :12:21.in any meaningful sense of the word, so in that sense it cannot
:12:21. > :12:27.split. Its strength is at congregational level, and many
:12:27. > :12:33.congregations have one view on this and many congregations have a
:12:33. > :12:42.different view. Is slightly feel you are speaking in riddles. When you
:12:42. > :12:47.say it is not a national church, let me put it this way, why do we have
:12:47. > :12:56.congregation saying we want to join the free Church or go off on our
:12:56. > :13:00.own? Some will undoubtedly leave, but I don't think many will. I think
:13:00. > :13:05.some congregations might appoint a gay minister and see what happens,
:13:05. > :13:09.even if that is against the policy of the church. When I say it is not
:13:09. > :13:13.a national church any more, I mean that it does not have this standing
:13:13. > :13:18.that allows it to speak to Scotland nor indeed for Scotland, as it could
:13:18. > :13:24.to some extent before we have the Holyrood parliament. I am sad to say
:13:24. > :13:29.this, but I think it is increasingly irrelevant as a national institution
:13:29. > :13:33.to the bulk of the people in Scotland. Despite the fact that it
:13:33. > :13:38.has over 400,000 committed members, which any political party in
:13:38. > :13:45.Scotland would love to have. It is still in some ways are flourishing
:13:45. > :13:49.organisation, but I don't think it coheres as a national institution.
:13:49. > :13:55.Callum Brown, the church of England has had problems over the same
:13:56. > :13:59.issue. It is almost like Europe with the Conservative party, it means a
:13:59. > :14:05.running sore, that affects particularly the Protestant
:14:06. > :14:12.churches. Why should gay ministers be the issue that causes the
:14:12. > :14:17.problems? Because it goes to the heart of interpretation of
:14:17. > :14:22.Scripture. Homosexuality is seen by many Christians to be abhorrent to
:14:22. > :14:28.God. So it is a bit of a touchstone dividing liberal Christians from
:14:28. > :14:33.Conservatives. It is not something limited to the Church of England or
:14:33. > :14:39.the Church of Scotland. The same divisions can be found in North
:14:39. > :14:45.America Australia or New Zealand. Scotland is by no means alone.
:14:45. > :14:50.what is also coming across certainly in Europe, is declining church
:14:50. > :14:54.numbers. Half the time, churches like the Church of Scotland and the
:14:54. > :14:58.Anglican Church as saying, we are not connecting with ordinary people,
:14:58. > :15:02.we have to find some way of connecting with our potential
:15:02. > :15:05.parishioners. Yet the other part of the time they sympathised with an
:15:05. > :15:12.issue which of the opinion polls tell us most people are completely
:15:12. > :15:20.relaxed about. The opinion polls show that opinion in Britain as a
:15:20. > :15:30.whole has moved dramatically in the last 50 years towards a relaxed
:15:30. > :15:32.
:15:32. > :15:36.position on homosexuality. I suppose what I am getting at is, are these
:15:36. > :15:39.issues stand ins for the failure difficulties of the churches to
:15:39. > :15:45.adapt to a world which is increasingly secular and with which
:15:45. > :15:49.they are increasingly out of touch? I think it is a failure of them to
:15:49. > :15:57.move away from a traditional obsession of controlling people's
:15:57. > :16:06.bodies. All these issues are about sexuality, controlling woman 's body
:16:06. > :16:11.over abortion and so on. These are issues about which public opinion in
:16:11. > :16:16.the West has moved dramatically towards saving, the individual is an
:16:16. > :16:21.autonomous being. We as individuals can decide the destiny of our
:16:21. > :16:27.sexuality, of what we do when we are approaching death and in severe
:16:27. > :16:32.pain. The churches are taking a very traditional line, being led by
:16:32. > :16:41.Conservatives, the art liberal Christians who are much more in tune
:16:41. > :16:46.with secular opinion. But the churches -- frog in the specific
:16:46. > :16:50.case of the Church of Scotland, clearly this whole issue of
:16:50. > :16:58.sexuality is important, but to some extent is it standing in this
:16:58. > :17:01.specific case of the Kirk four divisions that whether any way? Is
:17:01. > :17:09.it a pretext for evangelicals to Labour divisions that whether any
:17:09. > :17:13.way? Yes, I think the divisions were there. I think the conservative
:17:14. > :17:18.evangelical part of the church tends to be stronger in the north and the
:17:18. > :17:24.West, although the first two splits we have seen did not appear there. I
:17:24. > :17:29.think you are right however that there has been a lot of division and
:17:29. > :17:35.tension, and maybe this is the issue that is bringing into the surface. I
:17:35. > :17:42.am not even sure that it is even coming to the surface yet, because I
:17:42. > :17:47.suspect what we will have on Monday is a decision, probably it will be
:17:47. > :17:53.for a gay clergy, to put it crudely, but then it will be sent to the
:17:53. > :18:01.presbytery's father consent and endorsement -- wrote for their
:18:01. > :18:05.consent and endorsement. This is a problem for the Church of Scotland,
:18:05. > :18:11.because in the Catholic Church when you have these arguments over
:18:11. > :18:16.membership, and to some extent the Anglican Church as well, the falling
:18:16. > :18:22.memberships in places like Europe are made up for rising and the ships
:18:22. > :18:25.in places like Africa. I would not exaggerate the degree of religious
:18:25. > :18:35.growth in other parts of the world, but it is certainly not falling as
:18:35. > :18:40.
:18:40. > :18:45.it is in other places. The prognosis is not that good. I think that you
:18:45. > :18:50.are right to suggest that this is a touchstone for wider divisions, but
:18:50. > :18:54.there are a whole raft of issues and any one of them could lead to
:18:54. > :18:59.schism. A quick look at tomorrow 's front