:00:15. > :00:20.The Church of Scotland votes to allow gay men and women to become
:00:20. > :00:26.serving ministers. Abide with us, says the revisionist wing of the
:00:26. > :00:30.Kirk. Has a great destruction been staved off with a compromise?
:00:30. > :00:37.As church and state for out of step and moral perspectives, how does
:00:37. > :00:41.religion cope in a secular society? When I tread the verge of Jordan,
:00:41. > :00:46.bid my anxious fears subside. So goes one of the great hymns of the
:00:46. > :00:50.church. Fears are growing in the Kirk. Described as crossing the
:00:50. > :01:00.Rubicon, and amendment will allow liberal parishes to opt out of the
:01:00. > :01:05.
:01:05. > :01:10.Representatives of the Church of Scotland have been gathering in the
:01:10. > :01:13.same way they have done since the Reformation in 1560. But knowing
:01:13. > :01:21.they had the potential to make a decision which would have redefined
:01:21. > :01:28.the Kirk. Today, we know that not only our own church, but other
:01:28. > :01:38.denominations, are listening and watching. Indeed, many outside the
:01:38. > :01:42.
:01:42. > :01:46.church and in different parts of the Reverend Lorna had only became
:01:46. > :01:52.Moderator a feud is ago. She only gets 12 months in the job, but this
:01:52. > :01:56.will be a year to remember. Today's session or all the traditional
:01:56. > :02:06.hallmarks, but came at a time when the Kirk has been questioning what
:02:06. > :02:06.
:02:06. > :02:13.it stands for. By seeking first to love one another, as Christ loves
:02:13. > :02:20.us, we don't ignore our differences but we do commit ourselves to
:02:20. > :02:30.resolving them. Without destroying one another and without destroying
:02:30. > :02:30.
:02:30. > :02:36.the church that Christ died for. This dilemma goes back to 2009. It
:02:36. > :02:42.created a division leading to two congregations and several ministers
:02:42. > :02:45.leaving the church. Today, the General Assembly debated whether to
:02:45. > :02:52.allow people in same-sex relationships to be ordained as
:02:52. > :02:59.ministers. Am I accepted in this church or not? Because I am a gay
:02:59. > :03:05.woman. It calls and undermines my very core, it undermines my place
:03:05. > :03:09.with God. There is a level of incredulity in many parts of the
:03:09. > :03:16.wider Christian church. This is as they wonder what we are
:03:16. > :03:21.thinking of? Turning our backs on scripture and voting this way. After
:03:21. > :03:27.changing the tradition that Vista nomination has had for many years
:03:27. > :03:31.and throwing it out because of what society is telling us. Of course, we
:03:31. > :03:38.don't follow society, but we have to engage with it and be in touch with
:03:38. > :03:44.it. We have two appear less judgemental than we sometimes might
:03:44. > :03:46.appear to those outside this whole. There is a strong tradition in the
:03:46. > :03:56.church of recognising conscience. This recognises the conscience of
:03:56. > :04:01.those who have concerns. Has everyone voted? The vote is close.
:04:01. > :04:11.After a journey lasting for years, a decision was reached. I declare that
:04:11. > :04:19.
:04:19. > :04:28.to serve as ministers, but only if individual congregations wish it to
:04:28. > :04:37.happen. You are right in thinking the debate is not over. In order to
:04:37. > :04:42.come to some compromise, those on the liberal side of the the two make
:04:43. > :04:47.an accommodation for those who are regarded as the traditionalists. Or
:04:47. > :04:51.those who are regarded as the traditionalists have to make
:04:51. > :04:56.accommodation for those who will be regarded as the revisionists or
:04:56. > :05:02.liberals. Following the risks of the last few years, unity was one of the
:05:02. > :05:06.key messages. It is not over yet. The decision now need strapped into
:05:06. > :05:16.church law and endorsed by the regional presbyteries, meaning it
:05:16. > :05:23.
:05:23. > :05:29.will be two years before the new the BBC's religious affairs
:05:29. > :05:35.correspondent who has been watching the events. How significant are
:05:35. > :05:39.today's events? I think it would be difficult to exaggerate the
:05:39. > :05:47.significance. The Kirk has been a Bastian of conservative social
:05:47. > :05:52.teaching, of public morality and this is an about turn. It is dressed
:05:52. > :05:56.up in language that suggest it is a compromise, that it is not the
:05:56. > :06:01.traditional policy according to sexuality has not been changed. But
:06:01. > :06:05.the significant thing is the principal. The principle has been
:06:05. > :06:09.admitted, that active homosexuality is admissible and that it is OK for
:06:09. > :06:16.ministers and further church as a whole. That is a huge Rubicon to
:06:16. > :06:21.cross. As many of the people speaking show, people like the
:06:21. > :06:26.moderator, also we heard from Fiona Cameron, and held, people are aware
:06:26. > :06:30.of the eyes of the world being on the Church of Scotland. This is a
:06:30. > :06:39.massive institution in Scotland, but it is also got influence across the
:06:39. > :06:43.world. After careful look at the Bible, this has been taken. This has
:06:43. > :06:48.not been reached casually. It was a big majority in favour. I think
:06:48. > :06:53.that's the point is that other churches who are struggling with
:06:53. > :06:57.this question, the Church of England is having a review, and societies
:06:57. > :07:04.and churches beyond will take seriously this decision. There is
:07:04. > :07:10.water to go under the bridge before it becomes law. But it is a Rubicon
:07:10. > :07:17.that has been crossed, it is a big decision. You mention some of the
:07:17. > :07:23.processes there. It is quite a tortuous process. It could be until
:07:23. > :07:27.May 2015 when we get the first game ministers. Yes, because it was a
:07:27. > :07:33.compromise decision. It was a new amendments. It has to be worked on
:07:33. > :07:37.by lawyers to work it into at a coherent legal structure. It will
:07:37. > :07:43.come back to the General Assembly next year and only then will it be
:07:43. > :07:53.fixed to go out to the presbyteries around Scotland. The point here is
:07:53. > :08:05.
:08:05. > :08:09.that there is almost a natural natural break on progress. I think
:08:09. > :08:17.it is true to say that it is questionable how long presbyteries
:08:17. > :08:21.would hold out an against the settled will. Also, it will be
:08:21. > :08:26.possible to bring this issue back in another form. It could come back in
:08:26. > :08:29.the form of employment law or something like that. Some sort of
:08:29. > :08:35.issue where the rights and wrongs and defining the rights and wrongs
:08:35. > :08:40.of homosexuality will want again addressed. I think this is something
:08:40. > :08:45.that will return again and I think people will look back today and
:08:45. > :08:55.think that it is the day that the church changed its mind and was
:08:55. > :08:57.Professor David Fergusson, the Principal of New College and from
:08:57. > :09:07.Dundee by John Haldane, Professor of Philosophy at Saint Andrew's
:09:07. > :09:10.
:09:10. > :09:14.University. First of youth -- first of all to you, David Fergusson. Some
:09:14. > :09:20.people are saying that this is a fudge drawn up on the back of an
:09:20. > :09:23.envelope this afternoon. I don't think that is right. It was an
:09:23. > :09:28.honest recognition that we are deeply divided on this matter. It
:09:28. > :09:34.was an attempt to find another form of the so-called mixed economy
:09:34. > :09:39.model, which will enable us to move forward in such a way as to
:09:39. > :09:42.accommodate our disagreements and to live with diversity. Since I think
:09:42. > :09:46.there is no likelihood of the Church of Scotland reaching a common mind
:09:46. > :09:51.on the issue in the foreseeable future. We have been debating this
:09:51. > :09:58.for over 20 years. The church has been consistently divided at every
:09:58. > :10:03.time a vote has been taken. Do you see it as crossing the Rubicon?
:10:03. > :10:09.some ways it is, we have taken a significant step forward to adopt a
:10:09. > :10:13.mixed economy. To allow a greater diversity at local level so that
:10:13. > :10:18.local congregations will be permitted to call a gay minister if
:10:19. > :10:24.they so wish, thus opting out from the church's more traditional
:10:24. > :10:27.default position on sexuality. You could argue that the Church of
:10:27. > :10:33.Scotland has been a diverse and broad institution for about 300
:10:33. > :10:36.years in terms of its worship, belief and practice. We are a broad
:10:36. > :10:43.church and this is perhaps include the latest manifestation of our
:10:43. > :10:46.breadth and diversity. We're also joined from Edinburgh by the
:10:46. > :10:48.Reverend Jerry Middleton, a parish minister from Edinburgh and member
:10:48. > :10:52.of the Crieff Fellowship - which partly represents the so-called
:10:52. > :10:55.evangelical wing of the Church of Scotland. Thank you for joining me.
:10:55. > :11:00.Are you happy to remain in the Church of Scotland, given what was
:11:00. > :11:06.agreed at the General Assembly? Some say a compromise, a uniting
:11:06. > :11:11.agreement. Maybe it is very divisive as well. You will appreciate I am
:11:11. > :11:18.only a few hours after a long and demanding debate. I would want a lot
:11:19. > :11:21.more time to reflect upon the real implications of that debate. I
:11:21. > :11:27.certainly am troubled this evening by the decision that the General
:11:27. > :11:34.Assembly has made. Would you even consider leaving the Church of
:11:34. > :11:38.Scotland? I have indicated there will be no snap decision at all. The
:11:38. > :11:42.final position that the Church of Scotland adopts, as your
:11:42. > :11:47.correspondent has indicated, will not be fully realised and come to be
:11:48. > :11:50.the official position of the church for two years anyway. A woman
:11:50. > :11:55.moderator presided over the debate, the church is relaxed about
:11:55. > :11:59.divorce, it doesn't really mention abortion. Why is the of issue
:11:59. > :12:04.homosexuality such a sticking point? The report of the theological
:12:04. > :12:09.commission makes very clear the reasons why that is an entirely
:12:09. > :12:15.separate issue. The reasons are essentially twofold, to do with the
:12:15. > :12:23.fact that that has to do with church order rather than a moral issue, and
:12:23. > :12:25.the Scriptures alerting -- the Scriptures in regard to sexual
:12:25. > :12:30.activity are consistent throughout there is no ambiguity through
:12:30. > :12:39.Scripture. It is not the serenade the case in regards to the other
:12:39. > :12:42.issue. Professor holding, what do you make of this debate? Essentially
:12:42. > :12:52.it replicates one we are seeing across the western world in the
:12:52. > :12:57.
:12:57. > :13:01.Western churches. I think it is different, it is seen as anchored
:13:01. > :13:05.Scripture rather than other traditions. I don't think it is like
:13:05. > :13:13.the secular debate. As Robert Pigott said, it is a very important moment
:13:13. > :13:20.because the church has come to a few that what was hindered to -- is now
:13:20. > :13:25.permissible. It is significant also, more generally put the Church
:13:25. > :13:31.of Scotland. I think it is trying to find its position again, or trying
:13:31. > :13:33.to examine its position immigration to the wider society. Although it is
:13:33. > :13:38.not an established church, historically it has had a certain
:13:39. > :13:41.sense of it in the conscience of the nation. It is understandable it
:13:41. > :13:45.should be concerned about this. It is a difficult day and from what I
:13:45. > :13:53.have seen, people have conducted themselves very well. It doesn't
:13:53. > :13:59.really resolve the problem, it simply reveals the depth of it.
:13:59. > :14:04.centuries, the Church and states have been in lockstep when it comes
:14:04. > :14:07.to moral judgements. Now the state is breaking away in things like gay
:14:07. > :14:17.marriage and issues like that. Has the church been left without its
:14:17. > :14:19.
:14:19. > :14:22.moorings? I don't know. I think the state as we can see it is a very
:14:22. > :14:29.different institution as it was in the past. I don't think anybody
:14:29. > :14:35.thinks it is a moral authority. I think it is inclined to be a set of
:14:35. > :14:40.legal institutions. We live in a very diverse society. Things are
:14:40. > :14:43.changing in so many different directions. There is a tendency for
:14:43. > :14:48.people, particularly intellectuals and people moved by ideas, to
:14:48. > :14:51.somehow overemphasised the extent of which the trends in society are
:14:51. > :14:56.shaped by ideas. I think often thinking about these issues is a
:14:56. > :15:01.question of trying to understand what is happening in society more
:15:01. > :15:06.generally. Often the causes of change are not intellectual, they
:15:06. > :15:11.are social, they are economic, to do with migration. All sorts of
:15:11. > :15:16.factors. I don't think we're in a very good position to understand
:15:16. > :15:20.where Western society has got to or is likely to get to in thinking
:15:20. > :15:26.about sexual questions. These are very deep matters. We have only had
:15:26. > :15:29.a century, with the whole psychology of sex being developed and explore.
:15:30. > :15:33.I think we are in transition culturally and within that, the
:15:33. > :15:38.institutions are particularly challenged by these institutions
:15:38. > :15:46.because they see themselves as anchored to a centuries-old
:15:46. > :15:49.authorities and I think it is very difficult, and I can sympathise.
:15:49. > :15:57.Professor David Fergusson, the Church of Scotland is feet offered,
:15:57. > :16:04.it often moves with society. Is this an issue that is struggling with --
:16:04. > :16:07.the Church of Scotland is fleet of foot. Can it come to an agreement?
:16:07. > :16:12.There is no doubt we are struggling with it and we don't have anything
:16:12. > :16:15.like unanimity on the matter. I think John Haldane is right in that
:16:15. > :16:21.it is going to take a long time to think through these issues. It may
:16:21. > :16:28.take another generation before we get beyond the current impasse. But
:16:28. > :16:32.we have lived with either city on other issues. We agreed over 40
:16:32. > :16:38.years ago to the ordination of women ministers and elders. There are many
:16:38. > :16:42.sections of the church that don't still ordain women elders. We have
:16:42. > :16:48.managed to live peaceably with that difference. I hope we can do the
:16:48. > :16:51.same in this instance also. Jerry Middleton, when you think of secular
:16:51. > :16:58.society and the Younger generation when it comes to issues such as
:16:58. > :17:05.same-sex marriage, they are very at ease with it. How can the church
:17:05. > :17:08.reconcile itself with secular society and still feel relevant when
:17:08. > :17:15.you stand up on a Sunday morning, how can you still be relevant when
:17:15. > :17:18.you feel that society has such a different view from you? In some
:17:18. > :17:23.ways that is the very opportunity we have, the opportunity to point
:17:23. > :17:28.people to the most relevant person that there is, namely Jesus. Our
:17:28. > :17:33.call is to commend him and a call to an entirely different form of life,
:17:33. > :17:37.a call to godliness. It is that call that is hugely attractive to many,
:17:38. > :17:43.not just an older generation but a younger generation as well, you're
:17:43. > :17:48.looking for clear route each in their lives, for clear direction --
:17:48. > :17:55.who are looking for a clear route in their lives and making sense of
:17:55. > :18:00.things. While we stand for our society and with our society, we are
:18:00. > :18:04.also call to stand against our society. As well as engaging with
:18:04. > :18:08.that culture and celebrating all that is good in that culture, also
:18:08. > :18:14.to challenge the perspective of that culture. The only basis on which we
:18:14. > :18:22.can do that is on the basis of the Scriptures that have been given to
:18:22. > :18:27.us. That is in many ways the reason why lowest of all, I am troubled
:18:27. > :18:33.deeply by today's decision -- most of all. With no axe to grind at all,
:18:33. > :18:37.Robert Liggett pointed out it is very clear departure from the
:18:37. > :18:42.position the church has hitherto adopted -- Robert Pigott. It has
:18:42. > :18:45.previously been a recognition that the Scriptures clearly, consistently
:18:45. > :18:49.say that sort of conduct is out of line with God's will and God's way
:18:49. > :18:56.of doing things. The proposal that was accepted today runs counter to
:18:56. > :19:03.that. John Haldane, on the final point, we have seen society moving
:19:03. > :19:09.towards women -- equality for women, ethnic minorities, is this a natural
:19:09. > :19:13.point in that debate that the Western world is reaching? This is
:19:13. > :19:18.where it is important to draw a distinction that are in the secular
:19:19. > :19:24.world through you and the religious worldview. -- a distinction between
:19:24. > :19:34.the secular worldview. Christians see themselves as being in the world
:19:34. > :19:36.
:19:36. > :19:41.but our challenged not to be of the world. I think there is a concern,
:19:41. > :19:44.that if it loses a sense of its own moral resources. One thing I am
:19:44. > :19:54.afraid that is characterised in the debate is a certain kind of
:19:54. > :20:07.
:20:07. > :20:17.sentiment to listen -- sentimental me. A quick look at tomorrow's
:20:17. > :20:28.
:20:28. > :20:38.newspapers. The front page of the here tomorrow. From all of us on
:20:38. > :20:45.
:20:45. > :20:50.Newsnight Scotland, have a very good One or two showers in the short
:20:50. > :20:56.term. A grey and damp start Tuesday, particularly through England and
:20:56. > :21:01.Wales. Brightening skies and Southern as will turn a bit warmer
:21:01. > :21:09.than Monday. Further north, temperatures will be down. Only
:21:09. > :21:13.around 15 or 16 at test for Tuesday. A few showers, much of Scotland
:21:13. > :21:17.stays dry. Some sunny spells in northern England but across the
:21:17. > :21:22.Pennines, the Peak District and into the Midlands, a few sharper showers
:21:22. > :21:26.develop. Quite cool down the eastern coast with more low cloud,
:21:26. > :21:31.continuing through parts of East Anglia and the far south-east.
:21:31. > :21:35.Further west we could see temperatures up to 20 degrees in
:21:35. > :21:38.southern areas. Longer spells of sunshine developing. Cooler around
:21:38. > :21:44.northern and western coasts because of the strengthening north-west
:21:44. > :21:52.trees. That will bring changes through Tuesday and into Wednesday
:21:52. > :21:57.-- north-west breeze. An increasing whisk -- risk of showers. Make the
:21:57. > :22:00.most of it in those sunny moments. Whilst we will still seek showers