:00:14. > :00:18.television! Tonight on Newsnight Scotland, it
:00:18. > :00:23.has changed the face of the American energy market and seen prices
:00:23. > :00:30.plummet. It is fracking and today the government here was told to get
:00:30. > :00:33.on with it. We hear from an expert who says do not do it. Also, we have
:00:33. > :00:37.merged the police and fire service so is it time to look at the number
:00:37. > :00:42.of health boards and local councils and think of merging them as well?
:00:42. > :00:47.Fracking, simply put it is a technique to recover gas and oil
:00:47. > :00:51.from shale rock and it is being recovered in such quantities in some
:00:51. > :00:56.parts of the world that it has boosted worldwide gas supplies and
:00:56. > :01:01.in America dramatically cut costs to industry and households. It is also
:01:01. > :01:05.provided the Americans with security of supply for decades at least. But
:01:05. > :01:09.it is controversial. She did have a future here?
:01:09. > :01:15.Today, the Scottish government to their major step forward in its
:01:15. > :01:19.drive to make the country a renewable energy leader. At an
:01:19. > :01:26.industry event in Aberdeen, Fergus Ewing announced the approval of
:01:26. > :01:29.plans for the world's largest commercial wave farm. We have
:01:29. > :01:35.tremendous potential in Scotland and we have moved beyond the thinking
:01:35. > :01:44.stage. We have devices which are grid connected and are starting to
:01:44. > :01:48.demonstrate the capacity to generate electricity. We are on the verge of
:01:48. > :01:58.making great progress on both wave and tidal power and we want to
:01:58. > :01:59.
:01:59. > :02:04.stroll -- shows strong leadership. The 40 megawatts development of the
:02:04. > :02:08.north-west coast of Lewis could power nearly 30,000 homes. Could
:02:08. > :02:15.there be another more controversial form of revolutionary energy
:02:15. > :02:19.production on the UK Horizon? Hydraulic fracturing, known as
:02:19. > :02:24.fracking, is a technique to recover gas and oil from shale rock. The
:02:24. > :02:29.process involves drilling down before a high-pressure water mixture
:02:30. > :02:34.is directed at the Rock to release the gas inside. Its use in the US
:02:34. > :02:39.has seen the massed -- domestic gas prices cut in half and could offer
:02:39. > :02:42.energy security to North America for the next 100 years. The Institute of
:02:42. > :02:48.Directors says the UK government which has approved fracking should
:02:48. > :02:54.get on with its own revolution. " out today, the Institute of
:02:54. > :02:59.Directors says shale gas has the potential to meet a third of the UK
:03:00. > :03:04.gas demand. It could attract investment of up to �3.7 billion
:03:04. > :03:10.supporting 74,000 jobs. The report says the need to import gas from
:03:10. > :03:20.other countries could be reduced. It also says shale gas food generate
:03:20. > :03:24.significant tax revenues. -- shale gas could generate. This
:03:24. > :03:28.unique landscape is home to several rare species of plants and animals.
:03:28. > :03:34.It also serves as a remnant of a once proud industry that years ago
:03:34. > :03:38.was the envy of the world. These giant man-made formations are a
:03:38. > :03:43.by-product of a pioneering process developed in the mid-1800s to
:03:43. > :03:47.extract oil from shale. It resulted in Scotland becoming one of the
:03:47. > :03:53.world's biggest oil producing nations. So what is the potential of
:03:53. > :03:59.Scotland to be at the forefront of this new generation of shale energy
:03:59. > :04:03.technology? Companies are keen to do it because they can make a lot of
:04:03. > :04:10.money from it. The communities where they are proposing that are up in
:04:10. > :04:14.arms. There has been 1500 objections in Falkirk for objections there.
:04:14. > :04:19.They have an uphill struggle. I do not honestly think that the Scottish
:04:19. > :04:22.government is very keen. It has cooled its enthusiasm towards the
:04:22. > :04:28.technology and it is highly polluting in terms of the climate.
:04:28. > :04:34.If you want to damage the climate, you fracking for gas. I thought we
:04:34. > :04:41.were meant to be protecting the climate. He says questions also have
:04:41. > :04:45.to be asked about the Institute of Directors report. You must look at
:04:45. > :04:55.who funded this report. It was quadruple who wanted to frag in
:04:55. > :05:00.
:05:00. > :05:04.England. -- it was Cuadrilla Resources. What caused the crack?It
:05:04. > :05:09.was the earthquake. There are still concerns about fracking which was
:05:09. > :05:15.temporarily halted in the UK when it was blamed for earthquakes in
:05:15. > :05:20.Lancashire. There are concerns that gas can find its way into drinking
:05:20. > :05:23.water. A government report has concluded that fracking is safe if
:05:23. > :05:27.monitored. Right now the Scottish government looks focused on
:05:27. > :05:33.renewable energy. It announced that Scotland will be the first part of
:05:33. > :05:37.the UK to have a dedicated fund for the wave energy sector. When it
:05:37. > :05:43.comes to fracking, ministers say they recognise the need for a
:05:43. > :05:46.diverse energy mix, but they point that there is no plan in place shale
:05:46. > :05:49.gas operations in Scotland. I am joined by Corin Taylor who
:05:49. > :05:58.ruled the Institute of rectors report which was published to date
:05:58. > :06:02.and from Edinburgh by Doctor Dr Mariann Lloyd Smith who is senior
:06:02. > :06:04.adviser to the Australian National Toxics Network and has served on the
:06:04. > :06:14.UN Expert Group on Climate Change and Chemicals tale -- clamour change
:06:14. > :06:19.
:06:19. > :06:27.and chemicals. Explain your position. It is shale gas which
:06:28. > :06:37.primarily we would need fracturing to get out. That has been produced
:06:37. > :06:44.at commercial rates - cobalt gas - but the bigger point is a threefold
:06:44. > :06:48.benefit - jobs, tax revenues and reducing imports. It is not about
:06:48. > :06:55.replacing renewables. It is about reducing the imported energy that we
:06:55. > :07:03.need. You would except that the cobalt methane extraction, from
:07:03. > :07:09.pollution point of view, as risky if not more risky than fracking?
:07:09. > :07:13.that, a company would need to get permission from four different
:07:13. > :07:17.government agencies - the Health and Safety Executive, the Scottish
:07:17. > :07:24.environmental protection agency, the Department of energy and a and the
:07:24. > :07:33.local mineral planning authority. you think the problems we have seen
:07:33. > :07:36.in the Blackpool area and more so in the United States are because this
:07:36. > :07:42.technology is not implemented properly or do you think it is
:07:42. > :07:52.inherently wrong to use it at all? It is an inherently dangerous
:07:52. > :08:06.
:08:06. > :08:08.technology and it is not just us saying that. It is the United
:08:08. > :08:18.Nations environment programme who led last year put out a global alert
:08:18. > :08:28.about the technology and they said People are talking about a long-
:08:28. > :08:29.
:08:29. > :08:34.term productivity increase. It will not not happen. We need to look at
:08:34. > :08:39.the long-term cost. If we looked at the short-term problems of air
:08:39. > :08:45.pollution, water contamination, human health impact, which we are
:08:45. > :08:54.seeing in Australia, and also the long-term liability of the wells
:08:54. > :09:00.that will leak in the future, any cost-benefit would say, the
:09:00. > :09:07.analysis, that this is not the industry we want. People I have
:09:07. > :09:17.spoken to him in UK, it is not the industry they want. Corin Taylor,
:09:17. > :09:19.
:09:19. > :09:25.there are projects in Scotland, exploratory drilling. They have
:09:25. > :09:28.been complaints about leaks from that. I have been told by the
:09:28. > :09:37.Environment Protection Agency that they found there were no methane
:09:38. > :09:44.leaks. Why are you keen on this, the Institute of directors'? The if
:09:44. > :09:52.you look at the development of the North Sea, that generated more than
:09:52. > :09:59.enough oil to meet needs for 25 years. Gas needs for 30 years.
:09:59. > :10:03.is the potential? The figures you produced, it looked like five years,
:10:03. > :10:08.because the extraction rate is so low, five years you could get from
:10:08. > :10:13.the estimates of what is in the UK. If you look at the numbers are
:10:13. > :10:19.estimated by different companies and to apply a low recovery factor
:10:19. > :10:25.of around 10%, we would have enough gas to meet one third of needs for
:10:25. > :10:35.some years. We suggest that shale gas at peak production could meet
:10:35. > :10:37.
:10:37. > :10:41.one third of gas needs. If you are so keen on this, why did you not
:10:41. > :10:46.just produce the report, why did you accept sponsorship from a
:10:46. > :10:52.company that is the main company that was involved in what happened
:10:52. > :10:57.in England and has his reputation from that? The report and its
:10:57. > :11:01.conclusions are ours alone. We make recommendations to overcome
:11:01. > :11:07.barriers to shale gas production. We do not let the industry off the
:11:07. > :11:13.hook. We make recommendations. We make clear that the industry must
:11:13. > :11:18.be 100% transparent in terms of chemicals, on water use. Dr Mariann
:11:18. > :11:23.Lloyd Smith, the United Nations committee might be against this,
:11:23. > :11:29.but not many national governments. The French said they were not keen.
:11:29. > :11:33.Is there any other government that said they will not have it? I think
:11:33. > :11:41.governments are tempted by the dollars and the promise of jobs,
:11:41. > :11:49.which do not really materialise. The reality in my country, they are
:11:49. > :11:54.beginning to understand the problem. You say jobs will not materialise.
:11:54. > :11:59.I do not think anyone could you give the effect on the US energy
:11:59. > :12:06.market and say that they have not received a boost from shale gas.
:12:06. > :12:12.They are considering turning Ports on the East Coast built to import
:12:12. > :12:16.it, to export it. It is not a good argument to say it does not have a
:12:16. > :12:21.beneficial economic effect. I am not saying that. I am saying it
:12:21. > :12:26.does not benefit local communities. Most workers are technical
:12:26. > :12:31.expertise from outside. And if you talk to consumers in America, it
:12:31. > :12:36.has not benefited them. It is not cheaper to heat your house with gas
:12:36. > :12:41.in America than it was five years ago. If somebody is getting benefit,
:12:41. > :12:48.it is not the average person. Who is getting the benefit, who is
:12:48. > :12:53.paying the cost? We will have to leave it there.
:12:53. > :12:58.Police Scotland was brought into being last month as a result of a
:12:58. > :13:06.merger of eight authorities. The efficiencies of scale and reducing
:13:06. > :13:08.duplication was cited as reasons. Now the President of Association of
:13:08. > :13:13.Scottish Police Superintendents says the same reasoning should be
:13:13. > :13:18.applied to other services, such as the NHS and local authorities. He
:13:18. > :13:26.said the police service could not bear the brunt of these costs alone.
:13:26. > :13:33.We supported the reform of the police forces. Part of the debate
:13:33. > :13:39.is we recall some time ago, eight police forces, we accepted they
:13:39. > :13:46.were too many. Perhaps we have to look at other public sector
:13:46. > :13:51.organisations, local authorities, the health boards, and others.
:13:51. > :13:54.joined by Pat Watters, who was the President of Convention of Scottish
:13:54. > :13:59.Local Authorities, and is now the chairman of the Scottish Fire and
:14:00. > :14:04.Rescue Service, formed as a result as -- of a merger. What do you make
:14:04. > :14:14.of the suggestion that you should merge local-authority is and health
:14:14. > :14:15.
:14:15. > :14:19.boards? It is presumptuous to be saying six weeks into the operation
:14:19. > :14:29.that we are an example of how you should change all of the public
:14:29. > :14:31.
:14:31. > :14:41.sector. It is too early to make an evaluation. Especially at that Rank,
:14:41. > :14:44.
:14:44. > :14:49.chief superintendent, I do not see the evidence. Leave aside merging,
:14:49. > :14:59.this issue has been talked about for years. For example, local
:14:59. > :15:02.authorities. Why have different education departments, even if you
:15:02. > :15:10.kept the political separation, you could merge them and create
:15:10. > :15:15.efficiency. It does not seem to happen. You are wrong in the sense
:15:15. > :15:21.that there has been recognition for some time and that is why we spend
:15:21. > :15:26.time on Community Planning. There is a recognition that it cannot be
:15:26. > :15:33.one part of the public sector. Community Planning bring services
:15:33. > :15:37.in an area together to look at how they deliver better for communities.
:15:37. > :15:42.We talk about two different things, Community Planning might be great
:15:42. > :15:47.for the idea that is always talked about, for example when there is a
:15:47. > :15:54.tragic case of a child dying. It is talked about the agency is working
:15:54. > :15:58.better together. But for saving money, surely it is basic things,
:15:58. > :16:03.if the local authorities and health was got together, they could do a
:16:03. > :16:09.joint contract with a company such as Ford for trucks and save
:16:09. > :16:16.millions of pounds. It does not happen. That is not the case. There
:16:16. > :16:21.is a buying consortium within the health board and local government.
:16:21. > :16:30.We can work better together, but that is what Community Planning is
:16:30. > :16:36.doing. We can improve outcomes for local communities. We do not need
:16:36. > :16:41.an expensive reconstruction. The last time we did local government,
:16:41. > :16:49.400 million, the estimated cost. It cost 900 million. If you what to do
:16:49. > :16:55.it today, it would cost billions at a time when resources are stretched.
:16:55. > :16:59.I do not think people would welcome spending that money. Are you saying
:17:00. > :17:06.there is no benefit to what happened to the fire service?
:17:06. > :17:09.of course there is a benefit. There is a difference between what is
:17:09. > :17:15.proposed by Association of Scottish Police Superintendents and what
:17:15. > :17:21.happened with the fire service. can look at the front pages. They
:17:21. > :17:25.have the horrific picture on the front page. The soldier had to
:17:25. > :17:35.front page. The soldier had to front page. The soldier had to
:17:35. > :17:51.
:17:51. > :17:57.death. That is all we have time for. Across England and Wales, starting
:17:57. > :18:03.the day dry. Cloudy conditions in the north. Even if you leave the
:18:03. > :18:08.house, with sunshine ahead, it will not stay that way. The showers in
:18:08. > :18:15.the afternoon will not be as heavy as they have been in the morning.
:18:15. > :18:23.With winds touching gale-force in the east, and strong and gusty
:18:23. > :18:29.winds in the North of England making it cold. This is where heavy
:18:29. > :18:34.showers and thunder and hail mixed in. Temperatures dropping in those
:18:34. > :18:40.heavy showers. In those showers, they could be snow mixed in on the
:18:40. > :18:48.tops of the hills. Particularly in Snowdonia where they could be a
:18:48. > :18:52.covering of snow at the end of the day. On Friday, cold. Some parts
:18:52. > :18:58.favoured for something brighter and breezy later in the day. In the