:00:04. > :00:14.bit like the gold standard. It magnifiers your competitiveness, or
:00:14. > :00:23.
:00:23. > :00:25.Tonight on Newsnight Scotland: A manifesto for a socialist idyll.
:00:25. > :00:30.Alex Salmond's vision of independence has been criticised as
:00:30. > :00:33.indy lite. To take on the so-called vested interests of the Crown,
:00:33. > :00:35.landed interests and high finance, there's a call for a more radical
:00:35. > :00:41.alternative, but how realistic is this, and even more critically, who
:00:42. > :00:44.would vote for it? Good evening. The husband and wife
:00:44. > :00:46.economist team Jim and Margaret Cuthbert have declared it's not
:00:46. > :00:49.feasible that anything approaching independence can emerge from the
:00:49. > :00:52.referendum. They argue that policies, such as keeping the pound,
:00:52. > :00:54.bind Scotland into the rest of the UK. The couple, regarded as
:00:54. > :01:04.respected economists by the SNP, feel only genuine independence can
:01:04. > :01:13.
:01:13. > :01:18.Next year's independence referendum is all about what kind of nation we
:01:18. > :01:23.want Scotland to be. Plenty of evidence points towards aspirations
:01:23. > :01:29.for what is often referred to as social justice, but how does going
:01:29. > :01:36.it alone get you there? Deputy First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has
:01:36. > :01:42.tried to sum up her frustrations with the unions by talking about a
:01:42. > :01:48.young girl referred to as Kirsty. Her life is predetermined and she
:01:48. > :01:53.becomes a welfare statistics before dying 10 years younger than her
:01:53. > :02:03.richer neighbours. For the SNP the argument at the centre of the case
:02:03. > :02:04.
:02:04. > :02:08.for independence is making the lives of Scots better. It is also
:02:08. > :02:14.about making it life and fairer. But questions are being asked
:02:14. > :02:17.whether that vision can be achieved under the vision of independence
:02:17. > :02:23.currently on offer. Economists Jim and Margaret Cuthbert said that
:02:23. > :02:32.even if there is a yes vote, the current monetary policy could leave
:02:32. > :02:41.little room for manoeuvre. Staying in the UK currency union, there
:02:41. > :02:48.will be strings attached. It will restrict the ability of the
:02:48. > :02:56.Scottish government to manoeuvre. There is also the question of the
:02:56. > :03:01.interest rate and the exchange rate. That would not be set in Scotland's
:03:01. > :03:06.primary interest. We do need to improve social justice and this is
:03:06. > :03:13.becoming an even more pressing situation right now because when
:03:13. > :03:19.you look at the distribution of income in Britain, it is one of the
:03:19. > :03:25.worst in Europe. We need to look at growing the economy so that we will
:03:25. > :03:29.have that opportunity to give opportunity to others, and in the
:03:29. > :03:37.way that the neo- liberal policies have worked in Britain, that is not
:03:37. > :03:45.anything we want to be attached to. Critics of the SNP's current policy
:03:45. > :03:52.are now referring to a referendum paradox. Policies like keeping the
:03:52. > :03:59.pound or tired Scotland into a fiscal policy would-be been made of
:03:59. > :04:03.the UK. It has also been argued that a socially just Scotland does
:04:03. > :04:10.not go hand in hand with policies like cutting business tax. There
:04:10. > :04:16.are many in the SNP who believe in a socially just Scotland to do not
:04:16. > :04:20.support this tax haven policy, but equally, the SNP to have people who
:04:20. > :04:30.support that view. Jim Mike Hall and Nicola Sturgeon cannot both be
:04:30. > :04:36.
:04:36. > :04:41.right. But others say the Scottish government is on the bright track.
:04:41. > :04:46.The notion of a monetary union is a way to go. There is a lot to gain
:04:46. > :04:52.for both economies. Overall, most people in England to trade but
:04:52. > :04:56.Scotland don't want to go through the hassle of changing currency and
:04:57. > :05:01.bank accounts and currency exchanges to do business. It is
:05:01. > :05:11.plainly much easier for all of us if we stick with what we have got.
:05:11. > :05:12.
:05:12. > :05:17.Today, the Yes Scotland campaign tour Scotland how they should
:05:17. > :05:20.spread the word to their friends. All of Scotland's parties, no
:05:20. > :05:26.matter where they sit on the political spectrum, say they have
:05:26. > :05:32.the nation's best interests at heart. It will be up to the voters
:05:32. > :05:36.to decide whether the future lies in the union or as an independent
:05:36. > :05:38.country. I'm joined now from Edinburgh by
:05:38. > :05:40.Professor Gregor Gall, who edited the book Scotland's Road To
:05:40. > :05:43.Socialism, which contains left-wing contributions on both sides of the
:05:43. > :05:45.constitutional debate, including a chapter from the Cuthberts. Here in
:05:45. > :05:48.Glasgow is Iain McGill, a Conservative businessman who
:05:48. > :05:58.supports Better Together, and Sarah Jane Walls, a businesswoman who's
:05:58. > :05:58.
:05:58. > :06:01.on the advisory board of Yes Scotland. Thank you for joining me.
:06:01. > :06:07.Is the socialist aim still a realistic one? You have written
:06:07. > :06:10.about the current situation of neo- liberal domination. I think it is
:06:10. > :06:16.realistic and the reason I would say that is that on both sides of
:06:16. > :06:20.the argument in terms of being a for the maintenance of the Union
:06:20. > :06:23.and for independence, both the mainstream campaigns like a
:06:23. > :06:28.provision of detail that would be convincing for their campaigns for
:06:28. > :06:33.their end ideals. Therefore, the contributors in this edited for,
:06:33. > :06:37.whatever side they take, they actually outlined what they are in
:06:37. > :06:42.favour of and how you can get there. When they use the term social
:06:42. > :06:48.justice, they use it in a meaningful way. The problem is that
:06:48. > :06:52.Labour and the SNP used the term in a vacuous way. There is a big
:06:52. > :06:58.contribution to be made from those that contributed to this book and
:06:58. > :07:08.have fully with the kind of publicity it will get, those
:07:08. > :07:08.
:07:08. > :07:12.arguments will get a wider airing. You point out in the book that it
:07:12. > :07:17.is on a pro independence and pro- union, but arguing for social
:07:17. > :07:23.justice. You have written about gaining credibility among speak
:07:23. > :07:27.mass of citizens, but it is an uphill struggle now, isn't it? In
:07:27. > :07:32.the days after the death of Margaret Thatcher, there was talk
:07:32. > :07:38.about Thatcher's children. Have we not all been converted? People
:07:38. > :07:43.really are voting for left-wing parties. The reason why the left
:07:43. > :07:47.lacks credibility is because of what it has done to itself. The
:07:47. > :07:53.Left can regain its credibility if it is able to connect with the
:07:53. > :07:57.concerns of the mass of ordinary citizens. Much argument that has
:07:57. > :08:05.been made in various outlets is that if the left is to do that, it
:08:05. > :08:11.will be over material conditions rather than some of the fringe
:08:11. > :08:15.interests that some of the left are interested in. If the mass of
:08:15. > :08:19.citizens can be convinced that they would be better off in their living
:08:19. > :08:28.conditions, then I think there is more mileage to be gained there.
:08:28. > :08:32.That is true for both sides. The question is, which one will be
:08:32. > :08:40.ultimately more convincing. That will be an important dimension in
:08:40. > :08:47.the debate. You will be voting Yes in autumn next year. What kind of
:08:47. > :08:53.Scotland do you want to see? You are a successful and prosperous
:08:53. > :08:58.business woman. I did not start that way. I want a Scotland that
:08:58. > :09:05.looks after its young, it sick and its poor. I think the power was we
:09:05. > :09:10.have currently in Scotland, we have done well with them. Things like
:09:11. > :09:14.free prescriptions and more importantly for me, free education.
:09:14. > :09:23.Without having free education, I don't think I would have been able
:09:23. > :09:29.to prosper as well as I did. So, for me, more social justice, but
:09:29. > :09:35.also Scotland is to be put back on the map. Scotland was a country of
:09:35. > :09:40.innovators. We invented things, we were a country where we had no fair.
:09:40. > :09:50.We were the first to do things and I want to see that again. I want to
:09:50. > :10:04.
:10:04. > :10:09.see industry here and I want us to America and Sweden? The high taxes
:10:09. > :10:12.of Sweden but the low spending of America? I think if they get it
:10:12. > :10:18.right it is realistic. I am not a politician so cannot give you
:10:18. > :10:23.details on that but, for example, if Corporation Tax is reduced then they
:10:23. > :10:29.figure that has been flying about is 3%. 3% lower than the rest of the
:10:29. > :10:34.UK. What that does is, or what we would hope that would do, is
:10:34. > :10:40.encourage big business into Scotland and away from The City. That would
:10:40. > :10:47.generate more jobs and create more tax. Personally, while that
:10:47. > :10:52.happened? -- will that happen? I would hope we have a government who
:10:52. > :10:56.can do their sums and make that happen. For me, I want to see us
:10:56. > :11:00.being able to take the controls and actually use the resources we have.
:11:00. > :11:04.Ian McGill, hearing that, an independent Scotland that is
:11:04. > :11:09.pro-business, that would let business succeed, would you vote for
:11:09. > :11:16.independence if you thought your business might succeed? I think
:11:16. > :11:24.there is no coincidence that he is Scotland are putting up credible
:11:24. > :11:29.businesspeople. They are -- that is quite a desirable thing. The idea
:11:29. > :11:33.of, great, let's have low taxes in Scotland. Absolutely, that speaking
:11:33. > :11:36.my language, I want low taxes across Britain. That is what excites me. I
:11:36. > :11:41.know that it is not actually possible and not actually about to
:11:41. > :11:48.go with what is being -- not actually practical with what is
:11:48. > :11:53.being proposed. With these economies coming out today with this monetary
:11:53. > :11:56.union, we are not going to be able to take Corporation Tax three
:11:56. > :12:00.percentage points less than them without their agreement and they're
:12:00. > :12:03.not going to agree to it. I quite like the idea of tax competition
:12:03. > :12:08.because when there is competition and tax it invariably drives down
:12:08. > :12:13.and that, to me, is a positive, good thing. What is being proposed by the
:12:13. > :12:20.Scotland a the SNP, that is not possible or practical. Extrapolating
:12:20. > :12:27.it out of it, to have this big welfare state in a country where
:12:27. > :12:30.taxes are going down and down, fantastic. The UK are going to take
:12:30. > :12:35.their stone and then we will take hours and then they will take theirs
:12:35. > :12:38.and it was no money to pay for the things that you see are so vital and
:12:38. > :12:43.fallible like the free education and prescriptions that you want. It has
:12:43. > :12:46.to be paid for. -- vital and valuable. What do you make about
:12:46. > :12:49.that and the main point is that the Cuthberts were making that the
:12:49. > :12:54.freedom of an independent Scottish Government, their freedom of
:12:54. > :13:01.movement, would be spent scripted -- restricted by the rest of the UK?
:13:01. > :13:06.think there are a few points there. Firstly, if we are just looking at
:13:06. > :13:09.reducing Corporation Tax, that is just one policy and just a policy
:13:09. > :13:15.that we could look at if we were independent. We could choose to do
:13:15. > :13:19.that. Currently, we cannot. It is one of the few iron clad policies we
:13:19. > :13:24.have in independent Scotland, we will seek to take Corporation Tax
:13:24. > :13:27.down 3%. That is one of the few. Only if that is going to be
:13:27. > :13:31.economically sustainable and do what it needs to do. We're not going to
:13:31. > :13:33.do that and not big money from it. It has to encourage growth and
:13:33. > :13:39.business here. There are steps that need to be taken before Bridges
:13:39. > :13:43.taxes. Gregor, what do you make hearing these arguments? What do you
:13:43. > :13:48.make of that it comes to be independent debate. -- independence
:13:48. > :13:52.debate? We need only look back to the experience since the financial
:13:52. > :13:58.crisis to know this is a weak argument, a house built on sand. The
:13:58. > :14:00.argument from the SNP and Labour in British white terms that if you grow
:14:00. > :14:06.the economy it will generate sufficient tax revenues that can pay
:14:06. > :14:13.for the welfare state, that is not the aged between 11. I do not see
:14:13. > :14:17.that economic growth, is that Thatcher is coming back -- economic
:14:18. > :14:22.growth of that stature is coming back. We need to have not just real
:14:22. > :14:24.inflation of the economy but when that growth comes about the fruits
:14:25. > :14:29.of that need to be distributed and that meant the state must play a
:14:29. > :14:33.much bigger role. I do not think it is possible to have, as you said
:14:33. > :14:39.earlier, the American type of deal regulated neoliberal economy on the
:14:39. > :14:41.one hand and social provision that is provided in another of -- a
:14:41. > :14:45.number of Scandinavian countries. That is a square that cannot be
:14:45. > :14:49.circled. The issue is that we want to reinflate the economy but not
:14:49. > :14:55.through tax breaks to those who are already rich. So, is it tax increase
:14:56. > :15:00.you want? I think we would like to see a progressive tax system but
:15:00. > :15:04.especially one that does not have holes in it were many companies can
:15:04. > :15:08.legally and illegally avoid their taxation responsibilities. If those
:15:08. > :15:11.that have the greater resources and society were taxed at a sensible and
:15:11. > :15:16.progressive level then I think we could be talking about providing the
:15:16. > :15:19.kind of welfare state that we would all aspire to live in. You have
:15:19. > :15:23.heard that critique, a more right-wing economic policy. When we
:15:23. > :15:30.look at devolution, Scots tend to vote for more or less bringing
:15:30. > :15:33.parties. Do you not think it is maybe a more socialist Scotland --
:15:33. > :15:37.that may be a more socialist Scotland would be more
:15:37. > :15:44.representative of Scotland? People know very well, the example in
:15:44. > :15:49.France recently, the French like a fairly socialist guy to lead it. He
:15:49. > :15:52.hiked all the taxes right up. Business led the country. They fled
:15:52. > :16:00.the country because they weren't prepared to pay these high taxes and
:16:00. > :16:04.now France's in a bit of a pickle because of that. That would be the
:16:04. > :16:07.one thing, there are lots of reasons I do not want to see an independent
:16:07. > :16:12.Scotland, but one of the fears is that businesses would leave because
:16:12. > :16:16.we were in a high tax Scotland. That puts the socialist view in a bit of
:16:16. > :16:21.a problem. Finally, that is a fear of the more right-wing. How do you
:16:22. > :16:25.answer, of course, the question that people like Nicola Sturgeon want a
:16:25. > :16:30.more fair and just to Scotland whereas Jim McCall wants a low tax
:16:30. > :16:32.Scotland. It is the essential conundrum, isn't it? We can go round
:16:32. > :16:36.and there's lots of different ways and there are many ways to look at
:16:36. > :16:39.it. We don't want large companies not paying their dues to us. We
:16:39. > :16:45.don't want them coming over here and being in Scotland and not paying for
:16:45. > :16:49.being here. What we do want is to create jobs and get the economy
:16:49. > :16:53.moving. This is not about letting big corporations not pay tax. There
:16:53. > :16:58.are other things to look at as well, such as looking at our
:16:58. > :17:01.renewable energies. We need to be investing into that so that we can
:17:02. > :17:11.actually start creating industry. Currently, Scotland has something
:17:11. > :17:15.like 25% of the whole Europe's wind potential. We need to start
:17:15. > :17:20.capitalising on that now. These are the types of things that we need to
:17:20. > :17:26.be investing in. It is not just reducing tax and putting it up, that
:17:26. > :17:30.is to simply debate. There are lots of different sides to this. We will