0:00:12 > 0:00:16Another ageing Catholic bishop retires, it means that soon more
0:00:16 > 0:00:20than half the diocese won't have a bishop. We ask - where will the
0:00:20 > 0:00:24church find the men to lead it from scandal to revival?
0:00:24 > 0:00:28We remember this woman, social reformer, activist and Glasgow's
0:00:28 > 0:00:35first woman Councillor. Her supporters want to build a statue to
0:00:35 > 0:00:40MEP rate the legacy of Mary Barbour. But is that type of memorial rather
0:00:40 > 0:00:43old hat in the 21st century? Good evening. Bishop Joe Devine was
0:00:43 > 0:00:49not understating matters when he said 2013 had been a very bad year
0:00:49 > 0:00:53for the Catholic Church in Scotland. Revelations about Cardinal Keith
0:00:53 > 0:00:57O'Brien's behaviour and his subsequent removal have been
0:00:57 > 0:01:00devastating for the church. Bishop Devine is standing down as bishop of
0:01:00 > 0:01:05Motherwell which means four of the eight diocese now have no bishop.
0:01:05 > 0:01:09Another is due to retire soon. Where does the church in crisis turn for
0:01:09 > 0:01:16leadership? Vment? Breests from the Motherwell diocese gathering this
0:01:16 > 0:01:20morning to hear from the papal nuncio. Bishop Devine ten --
0:01:20 > 0:01:25tendered his resignation in August last year. It's normal for bishops
0:01:25 > 0:01:30to continue in post sometimes for up to two years while a replacement is
0:01:30 > 0:01:35found. The Vatican's acceptance of the resignation has raised eyebrows
0:01:35 > 0:01:40and it leaves another vacant sea in Scotland. Currently the diocese of
0:01:40 > 0:01:45Edinburgh, St and Druze, Motherwell and pailsly are vacant. The bishop
0:01:45 > 0:01:49of Galloway has passed the age of 75 and will need to be replaced soon.
0:01:49 > 0:01:54Only argyle and the aisles, Glasgow and Aberdeen have bishops in post
0:01:54 > 0:02:04for the long-term. But we may see some appointments as soon as next
0:02:04 > 0:02:10month. I hope that by the end of June we'll have a successor for the
0:02:10 > 0:02:18places in Edinburgh, that we have started to work for the sea of
0:02:18 > 0:02:22pailsly. -- paisley. I see that paisley would be provided by during
0:02:22 > 0:02:26the summer. The dismissal of Cardinal Keith O'Brien after he
0:02:26 > 0:02:31admitted improper sexual conduct, has been traumatic for the Scottish
0:02:31 > 0:02:37church. The hope is the new bishops can help to heal those wounds.
0:02:37 > 0:02:41helps enorm lousily. There's new vigour and dnchts it helps
0:02:41 > 0:02:44enormously. There's new vigour. It has been a very bad year for us and
0:02:44 > 0:02:48we'll be glad to see the back of it. Where will that new generation of
0:02:48 > 0:02:53leaders come from? And will they be up to the task?
0:02:53 > 0:02:56Joining me now Liz Laydon, editor of the Scottish Catholic Observer and
0:02:56 > 0:03:01Stephen McGinty of the Scotsman. Good evening to you both. We hear
0:03:01 > 0:03:04much about a church in crisis, scandal surrounding Keith O'Brien,
0:03:04 > 0:03:08dwindling numbers of worshippers, what are the strengths of Catholic
0:03:08 > 0:03:12Church in Scotland? I think the strength of the Catholic Church are
0:03:12 > 0:03:17many and moments like this, it's very difficult to remember just all
0:03:17 > 0:03:22the good work that the Catholic Church has done as a leading voice
0:03:22 > 0:03:26amongst the interfaith and ecumenical communities. The
0:03:26 > 0:03:30strengths are still there. The laity, the role of the laity, the
0:03:30 > 0:03:34work, the hard work and the consistent work of the clergy here
0:03:34 > 0:03:40in Scotland. All the religious orders and the remaining members of
0:03:40 > 0:03:43the hierarchy. I think it's natural but all too easy to focus on the
0:03:43 > 0:03:48negativity when the church is facing the challenges that it is at the
0:03:48 > 0:03:53moment. When you talk about the strengths of the Catholic Church do
0:03:53 > 0:03:57we mean the people at the top, will they be able to fill the vacancies?
0:03:57 > 0:04:02Undoubtedly they will. There are talented priests out there. We have
0:04:02 > 0:04:05to look at similar situations in Ireland, when it went through its
0:04:05 > 0:04:09terrible troubles in the Catholic Church and there was a decision to
0:04:09 > 0:04:12put in Irish priests but they were from the Vatican. They had worked
0:04:12 > 0:04:21abroad for a long time. That's a parallel which is more than likely.
0:04:21 > 0:04:30I think what we could well see is priests who have been working in the
0:04:30 > 0:04:35Vatican for years. Father BUrke was very close to Benedict XVI, these
0:04:35 > 0:04:40are characters and Peter Smith, who is working for the United Nations
0:04:40 > 0:04:46current currently. These are all men of great calibre. We could well
0:04:46 > 0:04:50perhaps see one of them coming back. We heard today the nuncio saying
0:04:50 > 0:04:53that for whatever Keith O'Brien's sins may have been you have to
0:04:53 > 0:04:57remember the good work he did for the church. He was supposedly
0:04:57 > 0:05:00providing moral leadership and wasn't living up to the standards
0:05:00 > 0:05:05which he himself set. Do you think that those comments today perhaps
0:05:05 > 0:05:11point it a church that doesn't fully understand the depths of the crisis
0:05:11 > 0:05:18it's in? The church has hay very strong grasp of the challenges it
0:05:18 > 0:05:23faces Atkinson moment. That's evident from the -- faces at the
0:05:23 > 0:05:28moment. Scotland was long called the special daughter of Rome. We're only
0:05:28 > 0:05:33a few years past a papal visit to Scotland. Scotland is on the radar
0:05:33 > 0:05:38of the holy sea and I think to see that we have to only look abroad to
0:05:38 > 0:05:43fill the vacancies is doing a grave disservice to the calibre of the
0:05:43 > 0:05:48chergey here in Scotland as well -- clergy here in Scotland as well.
0:05:48 > 0:05:53it time for a rationalisation at the top of the church? There's cannon
0:05:53 > 0:05:58law, the hierarchy of the church, the idea that a David Cameron
0:05:58 > 0:06:02Cabinet, you can sweep the diocese out of the way and a amalgamate
0:06:02 > 0:06:05departments. It's not going to happen. I think all the vacancies
0:06:06 > 0:06:10it's more than likely will be filled. You talk about the laity
0:06:10 > 0:06:13being one of the strengths of the church. Most definitely.They need
0:06:13 > 0:06:16to take a greater role in how the church operates rather than being a
0:06:16 > 0:06:21top-down structure? I think the opportunity has always been there.
0:06:21 > 0:06:25But people are realising more and more that they have their gifts and
0:06:25 > 0:06:28talents can be utilised more than their regular attendance of mass on
0:06:28 > 0:06:33a Sunday. About holding the bishops to account sometimes? It's more a
0:06:33 > 0:06:36case of being sow portative of the very -- being supportive of the very
0:06:36 > 0:06:40difficult tasks that the Catholic Church have and have always had
0:06:40 > 0:06:44being a minority religion in this country and facing the challenges of
0:06:44 > 0:06:48secularisation which has been a massive challenge to people of
0:06:48 > 0:06:51faith, people of all faithes and people of none in fact. There's also
0:06:51 > 0:06:55the situation that the laity in Scotland really want to find out
0:06:55 > 0:06:59what's been going on. I think we're in a situation where there has been
0:06:59 > 0:07:04a crisis in the Catholic Church. It's no longer enough that people
0:07:04 > 0:07:08are broadly expected to turn up to pray and pay. They want to find out
0:07:08 > 0:07:12what's happened. I think they're owed an explanation from the bishops
0:07:12 > 0:07:16of the Catholic Church. Do you think we'll actually get that? Do you
0:07:16 > 0:07:20think we'll get some insight into what has gone wrong here? I think in
0:07:20 > 0:07:25terms of investigation, I think there's a difference between holding
0:07:25 > 0:07:29people to account for their actions and wanting vengeance. There's a
0:07:29 > 0:07:33big, big difference there. As much as Catholics would want answers, I
0:07:33 > 0:07:36think they're more concerned about how the church is going to move
0:07:36 > 0:07:41forward and how everybody affected by this is going to be treated and
0:07:41 > 0:07:44taken care of, because once the dust settles, are those people who have
0:07:44 > 0:07:48raised allegations, are they going to be provided with the support that
0:07:48 > 0:07:53they're going to require for the rest of their lives? Are the people
0:07:53 > 0:07:56who have been asked to leave the country for a period of renewal and
0:07:56 > 0:08:03penance, are they going to be supported by the church? In terms of
0:08:03 > 0:08:08holding the bishops to account and the church to account, is today's
0:08:08 > 0:08:14announcement by Joe Devine part of that? Part of it is his old age, but
0:08:14 > 0:08:17other bishops have held on longer. I think we saw bishops in the past who
0:08:17 > 0:08:22have done three years past their time. Joe Devine has done eight
0:08:22 > 0:08:26months. There was an element that many priests were keen there should
0:08:26 > 0:08:31be a new bishop appointed in the diocese. Let me thank you both for
0:08:31 > 0:08:35coming in to speak to us tonight. Now Mary Barbour is a name which
0:08:35 > 0:08:38means nothing to most people. Yet many argue she's one of the most
0:08:38 > 0:08:44important and neglected social reformers of Twentieth Century
0:08:44 > 0:08:50Scotland. In the middle of the First World War she led the women of
0:08:50 > 0:09:00Glasgow in their rent strike. Those who guard her legacy say a public
0:09:00 > 0:09:01
0:09:02 > 0:09:06The cost of housing is and always has been a highly contentious issue.
0:09:06 > 0:09:10It is has the power to bring ordinary people on the streets in
0:09:10 > 0:09:15defence of what is widely considered their right to low-cost, social
0:09:16 > 0:09:20housing. 100 years ago, there was no such entitlement. It was the women
0:09:20 > 0:09:23of Glasgow who fought for and won Europe's first rent restriction
0:09:24 > 0:09:29legislation. They were led by a little known woman, Mary Barbour.
0:09:29 > 0:09:32think for that alone, she deserves massive praise because this act
0:09:32 > 0:09:36helped working families, poor families living in appalling
0:09:36 > 0:09:44conditions in those tenaments of those days up and down the whole of
0:09:44 > 0:09:48Britain. That alone she deserves recognition for. As centre of the
0:09:48 > 0:09:52munitions industry by 1915 Glasgow was the most overcrowded city in
0:09:52 > 0:09:56Britain. While so many men were away fighting, private landlords decide
0:09:56 > 0:09:59today would be a good time to increase the rent. Mary Barbour
0:09:59 > 0:10:04persuaded women if they stood together they could put a stop to
0:10:04 > 0:10:09the profiteering. Speaking almost 30 years ago, Mary's granddaughter was
0:10:09 > 0:10:13clearly proud of that solidarity. It's very hard to organise women
0:10:13 > 0:10:16because when they go home and tell their husbands, their husbands will
0:10:16 > 0:10:22say, " Oh, you're not doing that." You even still have people doing
0:10:22 > 0:10:28that. In those days, they all did it. Yet, they all defied their
0:10:28 > 0:10:33husbands and stood behind her. It really was very, very good.
0:10:33 > 0:10:37protests started here where Mary organised committees to resist
0:10:37 > 0:10:40eviction. When the rent collectors arrived the women would block the
0:10:40 > 0:10:43entrance to the tenaments and beat on pots and pans to attract
0:10:43 > 0:10:48attention. They threw flours and soot at the men until they went
0:10:48 > 0:10:58away. These protests spread all over Glasgow and the women became known
0:10:58 > 0:11:07
0:11:07 > 0:11:11in November 1915, when 20,000 marched on Glasgow Sheriff Court in
0:11:11 > 0:11:18a bid to stop the evictions. It was one of the largest demonstrations
0:11:18 > 0:11:22the city had ever seen. And it was effective. Just one month later, a
0:11:22 > 0:11:25nervous government rgs fighting the Germans and aware of revolutionary
0:11:25 > 0:11:31talk in Russia introduced the rent restriction act, the first of its
0:11:31 > 0:11:36kind in Europe. # Mrs Barbour's Army brought them to
0:11:36 > 0:11:44their knees # We are Rhone jiment in pinnies
0:11:44 > 0:11:50backed by bung reez... # It seems Mrs Barbour's army is still
0:11:50 > 0:11:53recruiting. Sharon Thomas became aware of her so when the Glasgow
0:11:53 > 0:11:58women's library commissioned her to create an art work, she chose Mary
0:11:58 > 0:12:05Barbour as a strong female role model. I think important to promote
0:12:05 > 0:12:07responsibility and to promote excellence for other women and girls
0:12:07 > 0:12:09coming up. So they can see the women that went before. They need to see
0:12:09 > 0:12:13the history. They need to see what came before. They need to see an
0:12:13 > 0:12:17icon. They need to see the power before them to know what hand to
0:12:18 > 0:12:21give them confidence. The Glasgow rent strike was just the start of
0:12:21 > 0:12:25Mary Barbour's political career. In 1920, less than two years after
0:12:25 > 0:12:29women were given the vote, she became the first female councillor
0:12:29 > 0:12:33to take a seat here in these chambers. It was from here that she
0:12:33 > 0:12:37continued her work on behalf of Glasgow's poorest, especially the
0:12:38 > 0:12:42women and children. She campaigned for public baths and children's play
0:12:42 > 0:12:46areas and helped establish the city's first family planning clinic.
0:12:46 > 0:12:52Councillors here have recently given their full support for the campaign
0:12:52 > 0:12:55to commemorate her. People like John McLain were talking revolution and
0:12:55 > 0:12:59somebody like Mary Barbour comes along and her luck was entirely
0:12:59 > 0:13:03practical about the problems facing the women and the children living in
0:13:03 > 0:13:06the tenaments, which were appalling tenaments in those days. She was
0:13:06 > 0:13:10doing things that made a practical difference in people's lives, right
0:13:10 > 0:13:16there and then. You didn't have to wait until the world became a better
0:13:16 > 0:13:20place to do it. She had to fight for it. Now Maria and others are taking
0:13:20 > 0:13:23up that fight. They don't know yet exactly how or where Mary Barbour
0:13:23 > 0:13:33will be commemorated but they're hoping to have it completed in time
0:13:33 > 0:13:42
0:13:42 > 0:13:46to mark the centenary of the rent Laura Maxwell with the story of Mary
0:13:46 > 0:13:51Barbour and the campaign for memorial statue in her honour.
0:13:51 > 0:13:55Joining me now to discuss the concept of memorials and public art
0:13:55 > 0:14:00Neil Baxter of the royal Royal Incorporation of Architects in
0:14:00 > 0:14:08Scotland. Is she deserving of a Scooch ewe? I don't think there's
0:14:08 > 0:14:13any doubt of Mary Barbour's importance of her in Glasgow. As
0:14:13 > 0:14:21that piece demonstrated she was a very pragmatic figure and for far
0:14:21 > 0:14:27too long memorial statues have been focussed upon the aristocratic, the
0:14:27 > 0:14:31great, the powerful, those with titles and indeed, royals. But does
0:14:31 > 0:14:37that not tell us that statues are a little bit old hat? When you say
0:14:37 > 0:14:41they're old hat, they go back maybe 30,000 years, soy think there's no
0:14:41 > 0:14:45question, but they've been happening for 30,000 years and they
0:14:45 > 0:14:49undoubtedly will keep happening and despite the fact that we live in an
0:14:49 > 0:14:53age of extraordinary technologies, they will all be gone in 100 years
0:14:53 > 0:14:58and the statues that are made now will still be with future
0:14:58 > 0:15:05generations. Which ones would be point to as great examples or
0:15:05 > 0:15:10personal favourites? Well, I live in the centre of Edinburgh. Robert
0:15:10 > 0:15:13Ferguson on the cannon gate, just an extraordinary piece of work and
0:15:13 > 0:15:21important because that statue is down among the people. So this idea
0:15:21 > 0:15:25of statues being high and remote and of individuals who are venerated, I
0:15:25 > 0:15:30have a criticism of the Donald Dewar statue. For practical reasons, you
0:15:30 > 0:15:34know, it has to be on a plinth, but it's a shame because Donald Dewar,
0:15:34 > 0:15:40I'm sure, would not see himself or wouldn't have seen himself as
0:15:40 > 0:15:44somebody who should be up there, you know, lauding it above people.
0:15:44 > 0:15:48on a plinth because he wasn't venerated in statue form because
0:15:48 > 0:15:51people vandalised the statue. We see in the Venter of Glasgow people
0:15:51 > 0:15:56climbing onto the top of the Duke of Wellington regularly to give him
0:15:56 > 0:16:00that hat or traffic cone that he wears. People obviously don't...
0:16:00 > 0:16:03Nice, humorous Glasgow. People don't always look up to these statues and
0:16:03 > 0:16:08venerate them in the way that you think. Well, maybe they don't
0:16:08 > 0:16:13venerate the Duke of Wellington, because maybe they don't recall or
0:16:13 > 0:16:18they haven't been taught what the Duke of Wellington actually did, but
0:16:18 > 0:16:23the fact is modern, contemporary statues, I mean, there's the great
0:16:23 > 0:16:30Glasgow city centre statue of the fireman, which if you remember after
0:16:30 > 0:16:369/11, that became the focus. Now that is a contemporary, it's not
0:16:36 > 0:16:39wholly representative work. It's actual actually, in some senses,
0:16:39 > 0:16:46it's slightly cartoonish, in its depiction of, you know, the
0:16:46 > 0:16:51equivalent of the unknown soldier. It's not a specific, named
0:16:51 > 0:16:55individual, but it's an emblem of the contribution that the Fire
0:16:55 > 0:17:01Service makes. Briefly, if you wouldn't mind, tell us about your
0:17:01 > 0:17:07particular role in one statue which lost its head. Well, I was very much
0:17:07 > 0:17:13involved in the work on Glasgow Green to refurbish Glasgow Green and
0:17:13 > 0:17:20James Watt had lost his head long since and I'm happy to say that his
0:17:20 > 0:17:23recap tags has been acheeped -- achieved. And he stands there happy
0:17:23 > 0:17:27reheaded, which is wholly appropriate for somebody who
0:17:27 > 0:17:32contributed so much not just to Glasgow or Scotland, but to the
0:17:32 > 0:17:37world. Neil Baxter, thank you very much.
0:17:37 > 0:17:41That's all from me. If you want to see the programme again, it's on the
0:17:41 > 0:17:45iPlayer. More news as always on BBC Scotland's website. Good morning