0:00:10 > 0:00:16years since she was crowned queen of the UK. We'll look at the Queen's
0:00:16 > 0:00:18place in modern Scotland, and the constitutional debate. And, protests
0:00:18 > 0:00:21against the closure of local courts - are they really Victorian
0:00:21 > 0:00:31institutions unfit for the 21st century as the Justice secretary
0:00:31 > 0:00:32
0:00:32 > 0:00:38says? Good evening. It is 60 years since
0:00:38 > 0:00:42the Queen was crowned. It was a different era then. By the time the
0:00:42 > 0:00:48next correlation there will no doubt been further change. The UK might be
0:00:48 > 0:00:58less united by that stage, if there is a yes vote in the next year's
0:00:58 > 0:00:59
0:00:59 > 0:01:06referendum. What role the Royals lay in an independent Scotland? -- what
0:01:06 > 0:01:09role with the Royals played? Today the Queen joined 2000 guests at
0:01:10 > 0:01:14Westminster Abbey, marking a key milestone in a long and eventful
0:01:14 > 0:01:17reign. It is 60 years since her coronation.
0:01:17 > 0:01:26She has seen much change in Britain but could one of the biggest still
0:01:26 > 0:01:30lie ahead? Historically the Scottish National party has not always been
0:01:30 > 0:01:40the monarchy's guest supporter, but people like Alex Almond will tell
0:01:40 > 0:01:41
0:01:41 > 0:01:48you that times and policies change. Nevertheless, there remains to this
0:01:48 > 0:01:53day a fairly visible Republican streak to the SNP. Like this crossed
0:01:53 > 0:02:00fingers protest as she was sworn in as an SNP. But can these policies
0:02:00 > 0:02:06complete? The SNP is a broad church with respect to the monarchy. It
0:02:06 > 0:02:09reflects society. There are as many people who are Republicans and
0:02:09 > 0:02:15monarchists as they are out in the streets and villages and towns of
0:02:15 > 0:02:23our country. Back in 1977 the Queen raised a few eyebrows during ace
0:02:23 > 0:02:28beach mocking her silver jubilee. I cannot forget I was, crowned Queen
0:02:28 > 0:02:34of the United Kingdom, Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
0:02:34 > 0:02:36legislative programme will continue to focus on building... A few weeks
0:02:36 > 0:02:43ago she outlined the UK government's vision for the future
0:02:43 > 0:02:51at the opening of Parliament. So will today's 60s anniversary service
0:02:51 > 0:02:55bring renewed interest in the issue of the Queen and the Constitution?
0:02:55 > 0:03:04The idea that territory by Nicky embody something that seems above
0:03:04 > 0:03:07the activities of Mia Michaels. -- mere mortals. If we are debating the
0:03:07 > 0:03:12future of the Constitution, of Scotland and the UK, it is
0:03:12 > 0:03:16appropriate to have a debate about how we hold power and influence
0:03:17 > 0:03:20democratically accountable, and it is an deniable that a head of state
0:03:20 > 0:03:26exercises substantial amount of power will stop let's make that
0:03:26 > 0:03:35someone that we choose rather than someone we are stuck with.
0:03:35 > 0:03:41Church of Scotland got in on the debate a few weeks ago. The ancient
0:03:41 > 0:03:45crowned of Scotland... Whatever the outcome of the forthcoming
0:03:45 > 0:03:52referendum, it seems the appetite for retaining the Queen of Scots
0:03:52 > 0:03:55remains strong, particularly among petitions.
0:03:55 > 0:03:57Joining us now from Westminster is Mary McLeod, the Conservative MP for
0:03:57 > 0:04:00Brentford & Isleworth and a former advisor to the Queen on
0:04:00 > 0:04:03communications and strategic change. And with me here is Professor Murray
0:04:03 > 0:04:09Pittock, a vice-principal of Glasgow University and the author of "The
0:04:09 > 0:04:15Road to Independence? Scotland since the Sixties". Do you think the Queen
0:04:15 > 0:04:20is for keeps in Scotland, whatever the outcome next year? I should
0:04:20 > 0:04:28think so. I think the Queen, the whole royal family, have been very
0:04:28 > 0:04:31well advised in recent years. They have shrewdly emphasised the
0:04:31 > 0:04:36importance of Scotland and Scotland as a nation, albeit within the
0:04:36 > 0:04:42United Kingdom. And they have done so in a way which has been very
0:04:42 > 0:04:47positive. So I would have to say, and there is no evidence known to me
0:04:47 > 0:04:54that the Queen isn't very popular in Scotland so I think that is about
0:04:54 > 0:05:00right. Do you think the monarchy and the Royal family will be nervous
0:05:00 > 0:05:05about the outcome excuse? I think the Queen will continue to do what
0:05:05 > 0:05:10she has always done and today was a great example. As well as the
0:05:10 > 0:05:14jubilee celebrations last year. The 60 years of service she has given
0:05:14 > 0:05:19the country, when you look at the public reaction to that, I think it
0:05:19 > 0:05:24is one of real love for the Queen and I think that is across the whole
0:05:24 > 0:05:29of the United Kingdom. Especially in Scotland, where I think the Queen
0:05:29 > 0:05:32and Prince Charles have a special link, whether it is what they do at
0:05:32 > 0:05:39Holyrood or elsewhere around Scotland, and especially at our
0:05:39 > 0:05:44moral, I know that the Queen and Prince Charles do spend so much time
0:05:44 > 0:05:50there. They just love it. That is part of the love that they have with
0:05:50 > 0:05:57Scotland, and the Princess Royal has it with Scottish rugby, they want to
0:05:57 > 0:06:01be a real, integral part of Scotland. No matter what happens in
0:06:01 > 0:06:07terms of political change around the country, they will remain that stead
0:06:07 > 0:06:13fast service to the country, because they have the stability, the unity
0:06:13 > 0:06:15that holds the country together and therefore, they will be looking with
0:06:15 > 0:06:22interest at what happens on the political front but they will
0:06:22 > 0:06:26continue to do what they do best. The Queen famously embraced
0:06:26 > 0:06:36evolution, do you think she will also embrace independence and adapt
0:06:36 > 0:06:36
0:06:36 > 0:06:40to it, should it happen? I think... I think the Queen is head of state
0:06:41 > 0:06:47in about 16 countries throughout the Commonwealth. I think considering
0:06:48 > 0:06:53the status the Royal family had 50 years ago, and now, it has shown
0:06:53 > 0:06:56itself to be very adaptable. I suspect if there were to be a yes
0:06:57 > 0:07:02vote next year that the Royal family would adapt again. It might become
0:07:02 > 0:07:08quite high profile, was the idea of a social union of continuing British
0:07:08 > 0:07:12union would be one they would be advised to home in on and they may
0:07:13 > 0:07:19be able to deal with it very well. I think it is intriguing but they
0:07:19 > 0:07:25would be a lot of continuity and only gradual change. How might the
0:07:25 > 0:07:30Royal family adapt, adopting the church's idea of a separate
0:07:31 > 0:07:37correlation for future monarchs? think a lot of these things are
0:07:37 > 0:07:42things that governments discuss and they might put my -- her Majesty
0:07:42 > 0:07:46about and then they might be able to decide on what is the right thing
0:07:47 > 0:07:49for Scotland, whatever happens after the referendum. It is one of these
0:07:49 > 0:07:56things where the Queen will absolutely do what is right for the
0:07:56 > 0:08:01country and of that is a United Kingdom, because I believe we are
0:08:01 > 0:08:06better together, if it is not, then the Queen will take on her role if
0:08:06 > 0:08:13she continues as head of state, that would be something she will continue
0:08:13 > 0:08:18to take seriously. But I do think it is something that is creating a bit
0:08:18 > 0:08:22of instability around Scottish people at the moment, what is it
0:08:22 > 0:08:27that the SNP are really saying? What about the other parties who are not
0:08:27 > 0:08:31necessarily very pro-monarchy? I do believe that the Scottish people to
0:08:31 > 0:08:38believe in the Queen and what she has done and then the buyer her for
0:08:38 > 0:08:45the 60 years she has given the country. -- admire her. You are
0:08:45 > 0:08:55saying that the role might change over time, in what way? It is
0:08:55 > 0:08:55
0:08:55 > 0:09:01difficult to predict. It is an effort for a yes vote... But for
0:09:01 > 0:09:08Republicans, the agenda might be unfinished dismiss. -- unfinished
0:09:08 > 0:09:13dismiss. I haven't seen much evidence that there are many
0:09:13 > 0:09:19Republicans in Scotland. It is not likely to happen that a Scottish
0:09:19 > 0:09:26ceremonial event would be slightly intensified. I think there are a lot
0:09:26 > 0:09:32of Scottish chivalric honours and recognitions, for example the award
0:09:32 > 0:09:37at Holyrood house to Prince William of the night of the Thistle last
0:09:37 > 0:09:40year, that was a sample of the kind of thing you might get after
0:09:40 > 0:09:46independence in Scotland. For many people that kind of thing really
0:09:46 > 0:09:51doesn't matter at all. It seems rather archaic, but symbolically it
0:09:51 > 0:09:55is quite important. Quite a lot of the symbolism like that would
0:09:55 > 0:10:02probably be taken out of the woodwork, there is quite a lot of
0:10:02 > 0:10:09symbolic freight that the Royal family could draw on to emphasise. I
0:10:09 > 0:10:14think that is what would happen. mentioned that the Queen has a great
0:10:14 > 0:10:19love of Balmoral, Princess Anne is the page and of the Scottish Rugby
0:10:19 > 0:10:25union, do you worry that the next generation of Wales perhaps don't
0:10:25 > 0:10:32share that connection and enthusiasm and might have a bit of work to do
0:10:32 > 0:10:41to ensure there is that continued Royal relationship with Scotland?
0:10:41 > 0:10:48Not at all, whistle Prince William struggling... Studying in Scotland.
0:10:48 > 0:10:52That was an example where he was a core part of Scotland. I will come
0:10:52 > 0:11:02back to you before we finish! What is your view on that, is there a
0:11:02 > 0:11:05
0:11:05 > 0:11:08long time and the number of social changes that have happened in that
0:11:08 > 0:11:1260 year-reign are enormous. In a sense, we are probably looking in
0:11:12 > 0:11:17future royal generations at a big shift. But it is difficult again to
0:11:17 > 0:11:24know where that will go. One thing that is interesting is the evidence
0:11:24 > 0:11:30that the junior royals don't quite like the kind of resolute Victorian
0:11:31 > 0:11:38outdoors lifestyle of Balmoral, which was a symbolic royal residence
0:11:38 > 0:11:44in the 19th century, now they don't like it as much. It is uncomfortable
0:11:44 > 0:11:49having those outdoor picnics. don't think that is true, I think
0:11:49 > 0:11:56the next generation, as I was saying before I started coughing, Prince
0:11:56 > 0:12:01William, who studied at St Andrews, that was a strong link and they
0:12:01 > 0:12:07spend a lot of time in Scotland and they're up at Balmoral in the summer
0:12:08 > 0:12:13and doing outdoor things. It is part of the family atmosphere that is
0:12:13 > 0:12:17created. I think the monarchy has always adapted over time and will
0:12:17 > 0:12:21continue to adapt. It doesn't take something like a referendum or
0:12:21 > 0:12:29independence to make that happen. It is something that the Queen is aware
0:12:29 > 0:12:33of, where if she is head of state and head of nation, which is I the
0:12:33 > 0:12:40voluntary work they do, there is so much that they're involved in that I
0:12:40 > 0:12:47feel they understand what British people feel, what they want. And
0:12:47 > 0:12:57they share that vision for building a great country, across the United
0:12:57 > 0:12:59
0:12:59 > 0:13:02Kingdom and they're a part of it. Thank you both. Scotland's sheriff
0:13:02 > 0:13:06courts see thousands of cases every year, but many of the buildings in
0:13:06 > 0:13:14which they sit are old, with poor facilities - or so says the Justice
0:13:14 > 0:13:20Secretary. He's backing plans for fewer courts in bigger centres. But
0:13:20 > 0:13:30protesters want justice kept local. Haddington in East Lothian is one of
0:13:30 > 0:13:39
0:13:39 > 0:13:46ten Sheriff Courts in Scotland said the set up was outdated.
0:13:46 > 0:13:51were to sit down today and plan a justice system for Scotland, based
0:13:51 > 0:14:00upon a network of High Courts and Sheriff Courts, it would be nothing
0:14:00 > 0:14:04like the present pattern. The present pattern was... Is based on a
0:14:04 > 0:14:13Victorian model and down through the years that has been recognised. When
0:14:13 > 0:14:17I was a young counsellor, I appeared in Dunblane Sheriff Court and in
0:14:17 > 0:14:22Nairn and Kinross Sheriff Court. All of these places have passed into
0:14:22 > 0:14:27history, because it was recognised they were underperforming. But those
0:14:27 > 0:14:32campaigning to save local courts say they make justice more visible and
0:14:32 > 0:14:38more accessible. It is access to justice and local access. People who
0:14:38 > 0:14:43need to use the courts are often on low income, or vulnerable people, it
0:14:43 > 0:14:48is a rural community here and we have a situation where people won't
0:14:48 > 0:14:53be able to afford to travel to court. The Justice Secretary said we
0:14:53 > 0:14:58can't Su poort the existing -- support the existing network.
0:14:58 > 0:15:02Although the court may be regarded as an important element in the
0:15:02 > 0:15:11community, many similar and larger communities function without a local
0:15:11 > 0:15:16court. The reality is that it is a better use of a shrinking Budget to
0:15:16 > 0:15:21concentrate on a number of courts where modern facilities are
0:15:21 > 0:15:26provided. The court service is to consider further centralisation in
0:15:26 > 0:15:31the Border, Fife, Lancashire and the Highlands. But its Chief Executive
0:15:31 > 0:15:34said there is a limit to consolidation. There is a core of
0:15:34 > 0:15:41buildings that you will have to operate from. There is no question
0:15:41 > 0:15:46about that. There is no further wave of court closures that are planned.
0:15:47 > 0:15:52We will be looking in four areas about how we can improve in that
0:15:52 > 0:15:57area. That may involve a building or buildings or a different way of
0:15:57 > 0:16:03accessing justice. That is what we want to understand. So how many
0:16:03 > 0:16:10corporates do we need -- courts do we need to run a justice system.
0:16:10 > 0:16:16Let's ask the convenor of the Justice Committee, dris teen Graham.
0:16:16 > 0:16:24-- Christine Graham. Do you have a particular number in mind? No
0:16:24 > 0:16:28was interesting was Lord Gill's evidence. I appreciate the
0:16:28 > 0:16:33campaigners, but what we had from Lord Gill was while he stated that
0:16:33 > 0:16:38it started out being financially driven by 20% cut in the courts'
0:16:38 > 0:16:45budget over four years, that is a substantial amount, once they had to
0:16:45 > 0:16:52address this, lie looked at whether or not what was there was right for
0:16:52 > 0:16:572013 and onwards. As you have seen, a genior judge in -- senior judge,
0:16:57 > 0:17:00his view was it was not appropriate. When we look at the delivery of
0:17:00 > 0:17:08justice, the senior judge in Scotland said we are not doing it
0:17:08 > 0:17:11the right way with all these courts. Do you accept that fewer courts is
0:17:11 > 0:17:14inevitable? I have taken the view that I'm looking at the evidence
0:17:14 > 0:17:18that has been put before us. There was a lot of good evidence about the
0:17:18 > 0:17:23difficulties for people travelling, the people who would find extra
0:17:23 > 0:17:26costs, the fact that there maybe local businesses in the area that
0:17:26 > 0:17:30rely on the court business and so on. I think you have got to look at
0:17:31 > 0:17:35all the evidence in the round. At the end of the day, we had to look
0:17:35 > 0:17:40at what will benefit justice, delivery of justice and one of the
0:17:40 > 0:17:45things that came out of the evidence was that if we go down the route of
0:17:45 > 0:17:51fewer Sheriff Court, there will be opportunities, as I Unite it, for a
0:17:51 > 0:17:59-- understand its, for a Sheriff to sit as a court in other areas, say
0:17:59 > 0:18:02for children's hearings, referrals from children's panels and
0:18:02 > 0:18:11vulnerable adults. Where would this take place if not in court? They
0:18:11 > 0:18:14could take place in a village hall, or a solicitor's office, or at a
0:18:14 > 0:18:24children's panel situation. They could take place in lots of places.
0:18:24 > 0:18:24
0:18:24 > 0:18:31It would be up to this, this is in the payline and -- pipeline and Lord
0:18:31 > 0:18:34Gill seemed open to tit. While we -- open to it. While we may have courts
0:18:34 > 0:18:40rigidly sitting somewhere, that does not mean that is the only place a
0:18:40 > 0:18:45court would sit as a court. Is that the sort of thing, property with
0:18:45 > 0:18:49technology -- together with technology and other things that
0:18:49 > 0:18:54would persuade an MSP like you to give up your local court. When we
0:18:54 > 0:19:00were told by the Scottish court service they were going to have
0:19:00 > 0:19:04details about video conferencing coming out in June, I asked for
0:19:04 > 0:19:10those details to be before the committee before we have the debate.
0:19:10 > 0:19:15So we will know there a is time table. The most important thing was
0:19:15 > 0:19:19Lord Gill's evidence. If the senior judge in Scotland says this was the
0:19:19 > 0:19:28pest consultation he has -- best consultation he has known, you have
0:19:28 > 0:19:33to listen him. Christine Grahame, thank you. A quick look at
0:19:33 > 0:19:37thank you. A quick look at tomorrow's front pages And there is
0:19:37 > 0:19:42the First Minister visiting the pandas at Edinburgh zoo. And a
0:19:42 > 0:19:47warning from the house building industry. And the Scotsman has a