:00:15. > :00:20.Deputy First Minister tells us that independence will improve our
:00:20. > :00:24.relationship with the rest of the UK. We will find out how the Irish
:00:24. > :00:27.and the Scandinavians get on with their neighbours. And behind the
:00:27. > :00:31.scenes at the Explorers Club. A love that some objects that tell the
:00:31. > :00:36.story of a Scottish search for knowledge in all corners of the
:00:36. > :00:40.globe. Good evening. How might a postindependence Scotland get on
:00:40. > :00:44.with the rest of the UK? Nationalist politicians have been keen to
:00:44. > :00:48.suggest that the relationship would improve when we are no longer bound
:00:48. > :00:51.together by a political system. In a speech this evening, the Deputy
:00:51. > :00:54.First Minister proposed the British -Irish Council and the Nordic
:00:54. > :00:58.Council as models for how we might be able to work together. In a
:00:58. > :01:02.moment, we will be discussing how the Irish and Scandinavians get on
:01:02. > :01:07.with their neighbours. First, Keays Andrew Black.
:01:07. > :01:10.Tonight 's lecture, a lesson on being friends. Speaking at a
:01:10. > :01:14.university event, Nicola Sturgeon said that under Scottish
:01:14. > :01:19.independence, relations with the rest of the UK, far from being
:01:19. > :01:25.ended, would see a healthy improvement. The fact is,
:01:25. > :01:30.independence has never been, and never will be, about walking away.
:01:30. > :01:35.Independence is about taking responsibility and working together.
:01:35. > :01:37.Working together with other nations in the United Nations, in NATO, the
:01:37. > :01:43.European Union, the British Irish Council and in many other
:01:43. > :01:47.organisations. But, crucially, it is about working together as an equal
:01:47. > :01:54.partner, rather than as a member of a union where one nation's interest
:01:54. > :01:57.'s, by nature of its size, are always likely to be prevailing.
:01:57. > :02:02.also said that the relationship would mean that Scotland would not
:02:02. > :02:05.have to go along with Westminster decisions like controversial welfare
:02:05. > :02:11.reforms. She reinforced her argument by borrowing one of her opponent was
:02:11. > :02:14.go key slogans. Scotland and the rest of the UK would stand on our
:02:14. > :02:18.own two feet, taking our own decisions and working together on
:02:18. > :02:24.issues of common interest. A relationship would be what it should
:02:24. > :02:27.always have been, a partnership of equals. Powers in Scotland and an
:02:27. > :02:37.equal relationship with friends and neighbours. That really would be the
:02:37. > :02:37.
:02:37. > :02:42.best of both worlds. Talking about the referendum leading towards a
:02:42. > :02:45.slippery slope... Nicola Sturgeon, who took questions from the
:02:45. > :02:49.audience, said that the British Irish Council could serve as a
:02:49. > :02:53.template for the new relationship, modelled on the Nordic Council,
:02:53. > :02:57.which brings together the Scandinavian countries. But the
:02:57. > :03:01.SNP's opponents say there is already a strong model for co-operation,
:03:01. > :03:06.called the UK. Is this latest move, along with plans to keep the pound,
:03:06. > :03:10.a soft sell on independence? Independence is about completing the
:03:10. > :03:15.powers of the Scottish Parliament, finishing the devolution journey
:03:15. > :03:18.that we started, making sure we have the powers to build the kind of
:03:18. > :03:23.country we want to be, rather than the situation that we have at the
:03:23. > :03:26.moment, where key areas of life are decided upon at Westminster and
:03:26. > :03:31.decisions are taken that the majority of Scottish MPs vote
:03:31. > :03:35.against, like the bedroom tax. But these things go ahead anyway.
:03:35. > :03:39.speech that she was delivering here is central to the case for
:03:39. > :03:41.independence. The SNP wants to make the case for full powers of
:03:41. > :03:46.Scotland, also persuading voters that the rest of the UK will still
:03:46. > :03:50.be close by. I am joined from Westminster by the
:03:50. > :03:55.London correspondent of the Irish Times, Mark Hennessy, and from
:03:55. > :03:59.Aberdeen by Dr Anders Widfeldt of the Nordic policy Centre at Aberdeen
:03:59. > :04:02.University. Nicola Sturgeon is talking about the British Irish
:04:02. > :04:06.Council, the Nordic Council, as templates for our relationship with
:04:06. > :04:12.the rest of the UK. How is the British-Irish Council viewed from
:04:12. > :04:16.the other side of the Irish Sea? is a question of God help us, if
:04:16. > :04:20.that is what Nicola Sturgeon is talking about. The British-Irish
:04:20. > :04:24.Council, whilst it has been a useful platform to allow full editions to
:04:24. > :04:27.get to know each other, there is a lack of political momentum and
:04:27. > :04:31.impetus behind it. The debate creature that has never developed in
:04:31. > :04:35.the way that maybe some of the more ambitious people at the beginning
:04:35. > :04:40.would have thought. I am not entirely sure what she means by
:04:40. > :04:45.getting on. At the end of the day, relations between countries are
:04:45. > :04:48.going to be decided by strategic interests. Relations between Ireland
:04:48. > :04:52.and the UK were poisonous for decades. But that was largely
:04:52. > :04:58.because of the whole issue of Northern Ireland. So this would not
:04:58. > :05:02.be used to iron out any political differences between Dublin and
:05:02. > :05:07.London? It could, but not in its current form. As of now, it is a
:05:07. > :05:11.pretty minor figure on the stage. There is no reason to say that it
:05:11. > :05:17.could not become more significant after Scottish independence. That
:05:17. > :05:22.would require everybody involved, not just Edinburgh and London, but
:05:22. > :05:25.also Dublin, Belfast, the Isle of Man and the other dependencies,
:05:25. > :05:28.equally to get involved and to be prepared to put a political impetus
:05:28. > :05:34.behind operations that does not exist at the moment. Dr Anders
:05:34. > :05:39.Widfeldt how would you sum up the workings of the Nordic Council?
:05:39. > :05:42.similar to the experience that has been related. After participating, I
:05:42. > :05:46.was struggling to remember what the Nordic Council does. I had to look
:05:46. > :05:52.at up on the internet, which is saying something, because I do teach
:05:52. > :06:02.Nordic Latics. Is their rivalry between the nations in Scandinavia?
:06:02. > :06:03.
:06:03. > :06:06.The Swedish and Finland ice hockey game is comparable to an English and
:06:06. > :06:11.Germany football match, there is banter that sometimes gets out of
:06:11. > :06:17.hand, of course. Some on the pro union order checks between Scotland
:06:17. > :06:23.and England, something that is dismissed by those on the side of
:06:23. > :06:30.independence. One of the achievements from Nordic cooperation
:06:30. > :06:34.is the 1950s when free travel for citizens was introduced, freedom of
:06:34. > :06:44.movement and labour. That is still the case. But this is also becoming
:06:44. > :06:45.
:06:45. > :06:50.an issue, relationships in Denmark, where Sweden could be a transit
:06:50. > :06:57.country. That is becoming a bowl of contention. Our sport free passage
:06:57. > :07:01.was introduced in the early 50s. blog says that an independent
:07:01. > :07:05.Scotland would drift from the UK. Rory Stewart says that history from
:07:05. > :07:10.other countries teaches us that. What can the Irish example teachers
:07:10. > :07:14.on that front? The Irish example is a special one, you're talking about
:07:14. > :07:20.an agrarian economy that became dependent on immigration, getting
:07:20. > :07:25.rid of its people for many years. So many of them came to Britain during
:07:25. > :07:29.the 1950s and 60s, and in the 80s, and we have seen a new wave in more
:07:29. > :07:34.recent years. It does display may be a willingness on the part of the
:07:34. > :07:40.Irish to travel for work. That has created a situation where there are
:07:40. > :07:43.very strong ties between Ireland and parts of Britain. To argue that
:07:43. > :07:51.there is a genuine connection between the two peoples is perhaps
:07:51. > :07:55.pushing it. A lot of the time, with the English, you will get a degree
:07:55. > :07:59.of benign condescension, perhaps. It is all terribly friendly, but it is
:07:59. > :08:03.not necessarily a relationship of equals. It is one that could be
:08:03. > :08:08.improved a lot more if you did actually have a greater number of
:08:08. > :08:11.Irish and British people meeting each other in their respective
:08:11. > :08:15.countries. If you look at the tourism figures, they are not what
:08:15. > :08:18.they should be, on either side of the Irish Sea. Dr Anders Widfeldt,
:08:18. > :08:22.given that the Scandinavian countries are not a unitary group,
:08:22. > :08:32.when it comes to detail, there is not even a common language, what
:08:32. > :08:32.
:08:32. > :08:38.keeps them socially together? has been an ideology of Scandinavian
:08:38. > :08:45.-ism which can be dated back to the 19th-century, but that was largely
:08:45. > :08:51.Sweden, Denmark and Norway, and Finland is distinctive because of
:08:51. > :08:56.language issues but also because of history. In fact, the Nordic
:08:56. > :09:00.experience is very different to Britain. For example, the World War
:09:00. > :09:05.II and cold war experiences were very different and the countries
:09:05. > :09:10.were split up into very different configurations and had very
:09:10. > :09:16.different experiences in World War II. A cabinet minister at
:09:16. > :09:21.Westminster says there could be a brain drain if Scotland becomes
:09:21. > :09:26.independent. That is something that I has to contend with. Are there
:09:26. > :09:31.lessons that Scotland could learn from Ireland? They would have to
:09:31. > :09:37.make a deliberate effort to keep the best and brightest at home, and that
:09:37. > :09:40.would at best require a particular structure of research and
:09:40. > :09:47.development and taxation, but I'm sure the Scottish Government has
:09:47. > :09:52.already thought of many of those kinds of ideas. But is the brain
:09:52. > :09:56.drain and effect of globalisation, economics? You could ask yourself
:09:56. > :10:01.how many Scots are travelling south to London at the moment. The figures
:10:01. > :10:08.are significant art they are not comparison with the figures -- but
:10:08. > :10:14.they are nowhere near comparator with the figures from Ireland. The
:10:14. > :10:19.brain drain has gone to Canada and Australia and the United States,
:10:19. > :10:24.English-speaking countries, but not Britain. That in itself is perhaps a
:10:24. > :10:34.reflection of the changing nature of the relationship between the two
:10:34. > :10:34.
:10:34. > :10:38.islands. Many of the young people in the city are doing terrifically well
:10:38. > :10:45.and enjoying the experience and if you look at a tear lower than that,
:10:45. > :10:48.they are here because they lack of work but they have enjoyed the
:10:48. > :10:53.experience that they have had even if it is not one would have
:10:53. > :10:59.necessarily volunteered for. Let me thank you for your time.
:10:59. > :11:03.That is the view of two gentlemen not from Scotland. Even Burns saw
:11:03. > :11:08.there was a value in seeing ourselves as others see us. Let us
:11:08. > :11:13.have another look at what others are getting up to. The Royal Scottish
:11:13. > :11:18.Geographical Society has been specialising in that since 1884.
:11:18. > :11:20.David Livingstone'sdaughter helped found it, Scott and Shackleton
:11:20. > :11:26.participated and the Scottish exploring tradition is still
:11:26. > :11:31.supported by. The headquarters in Perth hold a treasure trove of
:11:31. > :11:34.expedition and a survey records. It surveys the life and work of
:11:34. > :11:42.those who mapped our planet and beyond. Some, like David
:11:42. > :11:48.Livingstone, are household names. Others less so. This is the Royal
:11:48. > :11:55.Scottish Geographical Society of Scotland. This book records those it
:11:55. > :12:00.has honoured over the years. Every other page turns up another gem.
:12:00. > :12:10.This is, I think, one of the moments in our history which encapsulates
:12:10. > :12:11.
:12:11. > :12:19.society. Robert Falk and Scott -- Falklands Scott. This is an event
:12:19. > :12:29.when we hosted a dinner hosted by the king when Robert Scott was
:12:29. > :12:31.
:12:31. > :12:39.awarded one of our most significant medals. He was the leading Antarctic
:12:39. > :12:43.polar explorer from England and the leading polar scientist from
:12:43. > :12:49.Scotland and the whole event was organised by Shackleton, because he
:12:50. > :12:56.did my job in 1904-05. It was a real coming together, a moment in
:12:57. > :13:02.history. The society is run by full-time staff and volunteers. Each
:13:02. > :13:07.has their favourite object from the collection. You are looking at
:13:07. > :13:12.something with tremendous political resonance. We are looking at a map
:13:12. > :13:17.of 1714 and we are looking just five years after the union of the
:13:17. > :13:22.Parliaments, so the title is buried astutely the north part of Great
:13:22. > :13:29.Britain, not Scotland, the north part of Great Britain. And as you
:13:29. > :13:36.will also realise, it is exactly 300 years before the vote in next year,
:13:36. > :13:41.so it is a rather historical document with a modern resonance.
:13:41. > :13:48.From one map to 22,001 maps produced in the 1930s, from which came the
:13:48. > :13:55.land utilisation map of Great Britain. It involved a school
:13:55. > :13:59.children, students and nuns. Sir Dudley kept his eye on them.
:13:59. > :14:04.persuaded his wife to get driving lessons and he drove around the
:14:04. > :14:09.area, he was rather large of girth, and he stood on this platform that
:14:09. > :14:12.he had instructed on the passenger seat and he poked his head and the
:14:12. > :14:22.rest of him through the actual sunroof and he drove slowly down the
:14:22. > :14:31.country lanes. The other person, his number two, was this chap. His wife
:14:31. > :14:40.drove the motorbike and he stood up on the site care -- Sidecar and he
:14:40. > :14:46.transcribed maps to the correct scale by these ladies, a team from
:14:46. > :14:52.the London School of economics. They discovered, or they reminded
:14:52. > :14:57.themselves, of the reliance on imported food from abroad and
:14:57. > :15:03.suddenly there was a great demand from these maps, and so we can argue
:15:03. > :15:08.that Churchill's idea that we shall fight them in the field, it was
:15:08. > :15:12.people in the field growing a lot more in the way of crops, this was
:15:12. > :15:21.an essential part of feeding Britain and I think something like 2 million
:15:21. > :15:26.acres of land were given over to arable production. The society was
:15:26. > :15:34.formed as Arctic exploration was beginning and it tells the story of
:15:34. > :15:44.Henry good sir who left on an early expedition. This was his last letter
:15:44. > :15:44.
:15:44. > :15:49.back before the expedition went beyond means of Camino cage on. --
:15:49. > :15:57.communication. The letter is to his brother John. We have been lying
:15:57. > :16:01.here eight days and in that time have adopted the vocabulary and
:16:01. > :16:06.peculiarities of the natives, we have assessed the geography of the
:16:06. > :16:10.island, which is there a simple and the ice up on them is a very
:16:10. > :16:16.interesting subject and prominently marked and also contains specimens
:16:16. > :16:20.of the vertebrate as well as the invertebrate animals. You can see
:16:20. > :16:26.the enthusiasm of a young naturalist explorer and this makes his loss
:16:26. > :16:31.with the rest of the Franklin expedition loss all the more tragic.
:16:31. > :16:36.But here we have a tremendous insight into what is going on, not
:16:36. > :16:46.at the command level but at the junior level. Expeditions have come
:16:46. > :16:48.
:16:48. > :16:56.a long way in the 133 years since the start of the society.
:16:56. > :17:01.Just two front pages before we go. The Herald says an attack on benefit
:17:01. > :17:11.reform, the Scotsman once that half of Scots will get cancer putting
:17:11. > :17:15.
:17:15. > :17:19.stress on the NHS. That is all from us. Good night. We reached 25
:17:19. > :17:24.degrees today. Not the same low cloud that we are seen. The cloud
:17:24. > :17:30.coming in from the south could give us one or two showers. Many places
:17:30. > :17:35.will have a dry day with a lot of sunshine. It will stay dry in
:17:35. > :17:41.Northern Ireland. These are showers over the Scottish mountains, vary
:17:41. > :17:46.few and far between. It will be warm for this time of year. Sunny spells
:17:46. > :17:52.across much of northern England and the Midlands. A little cloud coming
:17:52. > :17:57.in from the south, a stronger breeze as well. Some spots of rain in the
:17:57. > :18:02.Southeast, something a little livelier later in Cornwall. Thunder
:18:02. > :18:07.is possible, but a very hit and miss. Wales should stay dry with
:18:07. > :18:12.temperatures typically around 22 degrees. It will be cooler around
:18:12. > :18:16.the North Sea coast. Heading into the weekend and there will be no
:18:16. > :18:19.major surprises, we will see a little bit more cloud around eastern
:18:19. > :18:24.parts of England and Scotland but most places are bright and warm and
:18:24. > :18:27.sunny. Temperatures over the weekend are not quite as high as we are