:00:05. > :00:14.special debate. Tonight we're tackling the eternal conundrum -
:00:14. > :00:24.but now it's a crucial element for both camps in the independence
:00:24. > :00:30.
:00:30. > :00:34.Good evening. Women seem to be less engaged in the deliberations running
:00:34. > :00:37.up to the vote - which after all is fifteen months away - but polling
:00:37. > :00:42.has consistently shown that those who do express an opinion are less
:00:42. > :00:45.likely to vote for independence than men. Tonight we have an audience
:00:45. > :00:51.composed exclusively of women - some of whom are firmly in one camp or
:00:51. > :00:54.the other, and the rest who have yet to make up their minds. They've all
:00:54. > :01:00.submitted questions to our expert panel - also an all-female zone.
:01:00. > :01:03.They are: Kainde Manji - Kainde is a researcher at Glasgow University and
:01:03. > :01:09.campaigner on issues including the gender pay gap. She's a committed
:01:09. > :01:12.unionist and member of the Better Together group. Next to her is the
:01:12. > :01:17.actress Elaine C Smith - who's well known in her professional life and
:01:17. > :01:19.increasingly for her stance as an advocate for independence. Amanda
:01:19. > :01:22.Harvie is a businesswoman and former Chief Executive of the financial
:01:22. > :01:32.services industry body Scottish Financial enterprise. She's a
:01:32. > :01:41.
:01:41. > :01:44.champion of the pro-unionist cause. Before we open up the floor, let's
:01:44. > :01:49.return to the idea of an independence "gender gap" and how
:01:49. > :01:52.crucial a factor it is. Recent polls consistently show more men answer
:01:52. > :01:58.Yes to the question - Should Scotland be an independent country?
:01:58. > :02:08.- than women. So let's assess the increasing voting significance of,
:02:08. > :02:20.
:02:20. > :02:25.I'd estimate, just over half of you watching this programme.
:02:25. > :02:31.If only you what she started. The women's vote has been described as
:02:31. > :02:36.the most formidable obstacle between the Yes campaign and the dream of an
:02:36. > :02:40.independent Scotland, but is there such a thing? No, many women vote
:02:40. > :02:44.much the same as each other in Britain but there are some
:02:44. > :02:49.differences which can make a difference because we are talking
:02:49. > :02:53.about 52% of the population so even small differences can have an
:02:53. > :02:59.impact. Women say health and education is more important, men are
:02:59. > :03:02.more likely to say economy and Europe. If those issues are
:03:02. > :03:09.important for the election then gender can be important for the
:03:09. > :03:11.election. Women are increasingly a political force. In UK general
:03:11. > :03:15.elections last half-century the number of women voting has risen is
:03:15. > :03:25.number of women voting has risen is federally. The situation in Scotland
:03:25. > :03:30.is similar, in the 2003 elections, more But where that is huge
:03:30. > :03:33.diversity among women, studies show that is the degree of female
:03:33. > :03:41.collective and is a degree of female collective nurse in one area and
:03:41. > :03:46.that is fear of the political unknown. It is a situation which
:03:46. > :03:52.manifests in the closest thing Scotland has two compatible debate,
:03:52. > :03:58.the campaign in Quebec to gain independence from Canada. In 1980
:03:58. > :04:06.the result was an overwhelming north. In 1995, the no campaign won
:04:06. > :04:11.by just over 1%. Women voters were pivotal. There are two main views,
:04:11. > :04:17.one is that women are more likely to be in trading rules and can have
:04:17. > :04:23.children, looking at older relatives, and that puts them in
:04:23. > :04:29.contact with government services. So any problems with services, that can
:04:29. > :04:34.affect them more than it would mail falters. Then there is the view that
:04:34. > :04:38.women are overrepresented in groups which are not likely to support
:04:38. > :04:46.constitutional change, it will with lower incomes and low educational
:04:46. > :04:50.status. The gender gap is much less for middle-class men and women than
:04:50. > :04:57.it is for working-class men and women. Working-class women aren't
:04:57. > :05:01.more likely that it less likely to support change. Hope lies in the
:05:01. > :05:11.fact that it may be early days in the deliberations of the female
:05:11. > :05:19.psyche. I think one in's voting will be crucial. Women will probably make
:05:19. > :05:24.their minds up about later on. Less of them are supporters of the SNP,
:05:24. > :05:28.so they are among the group which will be more persuadable. It depends
:05:28. > :05:35.how the campaign firms up. Persuading women that it is not such
:05:35. > :05:40.a risk could really swing it. number of interesting points raised
:05:40. > :05:43.their, but above all the importance of engaging with more than 50% of
:05:43. > :05:49.the population. Well, let's go straight to the first question from
:05:49. > :05:54.the audience. It comes from Amy Gardner from Strathaven. By does the
:05:54. > :06:00.panel think fewer women should support independence than men? Let
:06:00. > :06:07.us go to Jean first. It seems your message is not getting through at
:06:07. > :06:11.this stage. I am not so sure that is true. Women are undecided and they
:06:11. > :06:17.will take their time to listen to all the information and think about
:06:17. > :06:22.the arguments. I would say to the majority of women who are thinking
:06:22. > :06:27.about this very important decision, think about it on the basis of
:06:27. > :06:32.choice. This is about the kind of Scotland we want and where we think
:06:32. > :06:37.the best chances are achieving that country life. I do not think that
:06:37. > :06:40.lies by continuing to be part of a union which is imposing sanctions
:06:40. > :06:46.and difficulties and increased poverty on our children,
:06:46. > :06:52.difficulties for women than men government of Scotland would do. I
:06:52. > :06:56.think women want all the information they can get. They will engage. They
:06:56. > :07:02.are engaging now and one of them will do so the closer we get to that
:07:02. > :07:08.date in 2014. The polls show that among women who have made up their
:07:08. > :07:12.mind, they are not supporting independence in huge numbers.
:07:12. > :07:19.not sure about the huge numbers, to be feared. Some recent information
:07:19. > :07:25.in the press today is that women and young people who were undecided,
:07:25. > :07:31.more of them are moving towards independence. I was hoping you would
:07:31. > :07:39.bring that up. This was an article, I don't know if you all saw it, that
:07:39. > :07:44.said women and young people were big gaming to support independence. We
:07:44. > :07:49.wanted details on the Paul from the yes for an independent campaign.
:07:49. > :07:55.They could not tell us who carried it out and they expect us to swallow
:07:55. > :08:02.it with no names and no information on its? Every side on this debate
:08:02. > :08:07.will carry out private polling. Everyone does it. Tesco probably
:08:07. > :08:11.does private polling and they will not release that information. It
:08:11. > :08:15.forms how they construct their argument. I only know what I read in
:08:15. > :08:20.the paper this morning as well. What I know from the meetings I've called
:08:20. > :08:27.and the women I talk to, is that women are undecided, they are taking
:08:27. > :08:34.their time and our right to do so. They need people like me to persuade
:08:34. > :08:39.them or indeed Amanda from the other side to put her arguments. More of
:08:39. > :08:43.them are doing that and moving to independence and aware a while ago.
:08:43. > :08:49.I think it is fear to give the viewers are background to that
:08:49. > :08:55.report. Amanda, could it just be that women take more time to make up
:08:55. > :08:58.their minds? I think in this situation there are so many
:08:58. > :09:06.fundamental questions that have to be asked and and sowed. At the
:09:06. > :09:12.moment, we do not have all the cancers to give us comfort. -- asked
:09:12. > :09:15.and answered. I personally have thought deeply about these matters
:09:15. > :09:20.and I am convinced the direction is the wrong one. When I speak to
:09:20. > :09:25.colleagues, they are looking not just the issues affecting Scotland,
:09:25. > :09:30.but bear thinking about what they are going to do to grow their --
:09:30. > :09:32.companies in the future and how they will succeed in markets around the
:09:32. > :09:37.world because we live in a global economy which is highly
:09:37. > :09:43.competitive. There are number of important questions which need to be
:09:43. > :09:49.asked. The risks involved in taking this fundamental step and divorcing
:09:49. > :09:57.ourselves from the rest of the UK, our biggest market, are fundamental.
:09:57. > :10:00.The effect on our working lives, welfare support, the effect for
:10:00. > :10:05.generations to come, it is a major issue and I am glad when taking time
:10:05. > :10:12.to think and I am glad that the polls are showing that they are at
:10:12. > :10:19.the moment. How will you win over a crucial number for the Yes campaign
:10:19. > :10:26.of women voters? I think generally, in the walk of life iron and we
:10:26. > :10:33.allowed in the East End of Glasgow, I see that women are interested. --
:10:33. > :10:39.the walk of life I am in and weird I live. Women are more reticent and
:10:39. > :10:43.they want to take more time about their decision. The work I have done
:10:43. > :10:49.with zero tolerance regarding domestic violence, we have often
:10:49. > :10:57.seen, even in the worst situation, women take a long time to leave and
:10:57. > :11:01.move and decide to go on with a different part of their life. I
:11:01. > :11:09.certainly in my own politics, it has taken me many years to get to this
:11:09. > :11:15.position of yes. I have felt the anger and fear. To say that any of
:11:15. > :11:21.us just woke up and said I will vote yes, it takes a long time to get
:11:21. > :11:26.there and to get through the arguments. We do not have one
:11:26. > :11:29.newspaper in Scotland supporting the Yes campaign. That tsunami of
:11:29. > :11:34.negativity which has been thrown at us all for a long time to
:11:34. > :11:40.frighteners makes women more hesitant. It is also interesting
:11:40. > :11:47.that some of the research done into the banking crisis for instance, has
:11:47. > :11:51.said that if women had been involved on 50% of the board us towards the
:11:51. > :11:55.financial crash, had women been involved we would not have taken the
:11:55. > :12:04.decision is those banks don't we would have been less likely to those
:12:04. > :12:13.decisions. Generally women are risk averse, we are more risk averse than
:12:13. > :12:19.men, we see the downside. I also think there is a reticence in women
:12:19. > :12:26.at this point, the debate is Emile debate, it is about men in suits
:12:26. > :12:31.arguing with each other. We live in a country were less than 20% of our
:12:31. > :12:38.judges and lawyers are women. There has never been a women head of the
:12:38. > :12:44.BBC. One woman editor in my lifetime in a newspaper in Scotland. We do
:12:44. > :12:50.not see sales reflected back and if we do not, how can we get to a point
:12:50. > :12:56.of feeling that we are independent? What about the Quebec experience
:12:56. > :12:59.which was fascinating, where they found that women, especially
:12:59. > :13:06.working-class women, had a relationship with the state and
:13:06. > :13:10.welfare and where the most risk averse? I can understand that.
:13:10. > :13:14.a businesswoman but I live in the East End of Glasgow which is very
:13:14. > :13:20.working class. I can see that reticence and they talk to me about
:13:20. > :13:25.it. They are the ones at the sharp end. They will be looking after
:13:25. > :13:31.elderly parents, they are care workers with low PE. Those are the
:13:31. > :13:35.women I am interested in. People like Amanda, wonderful women doing a
:13:35. > :13:40.great job in Scotland, they have been successful. They have great
:13:40. > :13:45.careers, they go out there and probably went to the best private
:13:45. > :13:52.schools. Of course they will vote no. So independence is a class
:13:52. > :13:58.issue? I think to an extent it does. It is a very interesting point.
:13:58. > :14:04.it possible that, also referring to the Quebec question, there was a
:14:04. > :14:12.certain amount of feeling within the campaign that they had the women's
:14:12. > :14:22.vote in their pocket? They became complacent and nearly lost it. Is
:14:22. > :14:29.
:14:29. > :14:33.there not a danger that could happen I have spoken to a large number of
:14:33. > :14:36.women who are really engaging in our campaign at a grassroots level.
:14:36. > :14:41.They are telling me in the conversations I have had, that
:14:41. > :14:47.there is a real fear, there has been a consistent squeeze on living
:14:47. > :14:53.standards. People are losing jobs. We are living in extremely tough
:14:53. > :14:58.economic times. And I think there is an natural concern that we are
:14:58. > :15:01.stepping into the unknown. I would, as someone who has campaigned
:15:01. > :15:09.equally on the issue of violence against women, be slightly
:15:09. > :15:14.concerned about the illusion that to draw towards making a decision
:15:14. > :15:18.about constitutional future and making a comparison with an abusive
:15:18. > :15:26.relish it, I think it is a slightly worrying thing to draw. -- an
:15:26. > :15:34.abusive relationship. I think women have serious concerns. Legitimate
:15:34. > :15:38.concerns. They do need to be met. But the step into the dark of
:15:38. > :15:43.independence... Aren't you scaring them with saying step into the
:15:43. > :15:47.dark? But we don't know. We don't know that the union was going to
:15:47. > :15:50.happen. We know the cuts are going to get worse and the working-class
:15:50. > :15:57.women apart of that are going to be affected more than anyone else in
:15:57. > :16:02.this country by the cuts coming from Westminster. And they don't
:16:02. > :16:06.have any guarantee... You do not have the majority on speaking to
:16:06. > :16:12.working-class women. I have to -- broken -- spoken to very many women
:16:12. > :16:15.who have suffered under the cuts. I have spoken to people who are
:16:15. > :16:19.suffering after what this government is doing. What I say to
:16:19. > :16:23.them is that the solution is not to vote Yes in the independence
:16:23. > :16:27.referendum when you do not know. We do not know what the economic
:16:27. > :16:31.circumstances in Scotland are going to be. What you should do is in the
:16:32. > :16:39.2015 in the general election, though it for a change -- change
:16:39. > :16:43.them. Be that across the UK. have to say, that is a good
:16:43. > :16:50.argument until you get to the point of, where would change comes from
:16:50. > :16:54.Ind that 2015 election? You have not been listening to what Ed Balls
:16:54. > :16:57.has been saying, what Miliband has been saying. They are going to
:16:57. > :17:01.continue what this current government is doing. So there is no
:17:01. > :17:09.hope there. The hope is in making the decisions for ourselves about
:17:10. > :17:12.our own families, own children, taking that into our own hands.
:17:12. > :17:16.very important points are coming out of the discussion so far. The
:17:16. > :17:19.first thing is we should not descend into party politics here.
:17:19. > :17:23.The issue that we are all facing next September is whether we want
:17:23. > :17:28.to break away from the United Kingdom or not. We cannot at this
:17:28. > :17:31.stage know what party might be elected to Westminster or indeed
:17:31. > :17:41.worse got them to vote independence, what Scotland party -- what party
:17:41. > :17:42.
:17:42. > :17:47.would be would be voting in here. The other thing is that the idea
:17:47. > :17:52.that there is a polarity, it does not matter what class you are from,
:17:52. > :17:56.everyone has an interest in insuring Scotland prospers. We need
:17:56. > :17:59.opportunity for everybody. I am interested in what will make
:17:59. > :18:03.Scotland strong for the future. I would like to keep to the high
:18:04. > :18:07.level issues because they unite all of us. Let's go to the lady at the
:18:07. > :18:12.back. We hear a lot from the Better Together campaign about how
:18:12. > :18:16.uncertain it is if we vote for independence, but nothing stays the
:18:16. > :18:21.same. I am not hearing only certainty about if we do not vote
:18:21. > :18:26.for it. I am not hearing any vision about what they have you is for
:18:27. > :18:35.Scott and's place in the UK, I am only hearing, don't do that because
:18:35. > :18:39.it is scary. Do you think that is valid? I think that your question
:18:39. > :18:46.reflects what public debate is focused on at the moment. Because
:18:46. > :18:51.there is such a deficit of answers to the questions that people want
:18:51. > :18:54.answers to. My view is that this is not about for negative vision of
:18:54. > :18:58.the future of being frightened about the future. My concern
:18:58. > :19:03.personally is what is going to be best for Scotland and how it can
:19:03. > :19:07.continue to thrive, and be the best, a successful country it can be. If
:19:07. > :19:12.we all share an ambitious vision for Scotland's future, the question
:19:12. > :19:17.is, how can we best to deliver that? What is the most solid,
:19:17. > :19:24.stable platform that we can insure Scotland has to build on his
:19:24. > :19:28.successes and prosper in the future? Better Together is focusing
:19:28. > :19:33.on that very concerned. Do we want to pull the rug away and cut
:19:33. > :19:39.ourselves off from our main domestic market, which is what
:19:39. > :19:41.independence would mean? Blue wood to create a? Over Scotland's
:19:41. > :19:48.competitiveness for international companies who are looking at
:19:48. > :19:58.investing for the Long Tom? Du Li wants to -- for the long term? To
:19:58. > :19:58.
:19:59. > :20:04.we wants to put the border in? lady in the couple. I am going to
:20:04. > :20:09.come back to what Kainde Manji was saying about the fair and the dark
:20:09. > :20:13.places we are going into. I think maybe there has been an exclusion
:20:13. > :20:17.from politics, women especially have not felt that politics was a
:20:17. > :20:24.part of their lives. It is time to bring people into the fold and do
:20:24. > :20:30.away with that fear, instead of encouraging it. Let's do just that.
:20:30. > :20:34.Let's get another question. It comes from Laura Burnett. I do not
:20:34. > :20:38.yet feel I can make an informed decision on independence. When am I
:20:38. > :20:44.going to get all the facts on things such as EU membership,
:20:44. > :20:51.currency and defence? Before we are so that, and I know there is an
:20:51. > :20:55.open invitation to debate cyclist, many people in our audiences apply
:20:55. > :20:59.because they have affiliations to the different campaigns. The
:20:59. > :21:05.difficulty is to reach people who are not politically committed. I
:21:05. > :21:10.went to the streets of Glasgow to find them. I don't know about my
:21:10. > :21:15.bus pass and things like that, the pensions. Is it a case of fear of
:21:15. > :21:20.the unknown for you? Yes, I think so. Do you know anything about it?
:21:20. > :21:26.No. Be you know when it is happening? The vote on Scotland's
:21:26. > :21:31.future? Whether or not Scotland becomes an independent country?
:21:31. > :21:35.So what should they be doing to captain your attention? Stop
:21:35. > :21:41.playing politics, and tell the people I delete what it entails for
:21:41. > :21:46.us. Definitely from us. What are the issues which will determine how
:21:46. > :21:51.you vote? Financial issues, they are really big. I do not want to
:21:51. > :21:56.end up with what happened in Ireland, I do not want us to have a
:21:56. > :22:03.big slump. I feel we would probably be better off independently,
:22:03. > :22:06.financially better off. I feel Britain needs to be joined together.
:22:06. > :22:09.we are getting more and more individual, I think there are
:22:09. > :22:13.strength in numbers. I don't think Scotland can stand up for itself on
:22:13. > :22:20.its own. Do you think that as voters women are more cautious?
:22:20. > :22:26.think so, my husband is a cautious motor but I think I'd look into
:22:26. > :22:31.finer detail than he does. For I don't think I will be into it.
:22:31. > :22:37.will not be voting next year? woman I think I do not know it
:22:37. > :22:43.anything about it, I might go what my boyfriend or dad said. Really?!
:22:43. > :22:48.In 21st century Scott and? I know, it is terrible. If someone was to
:22:48. > :22:51.educate you about what the sides are offering, how best to good they
:22:51. > :22:57.do it that would catch your attention? I want to know exactly
:22:57. > :23:03.what is going to happen, what the changes going to be. There were
:23:03. > :23:06.gasps in the studio over the views of that last contributor, but she
:23:06. > :23:13.was being honest. Is that representative of the population as
:23:13. > :23:16.a whole? Is the problem information, as Laura's question suggested?
:23:16. > :23:21.Before I tickets to the panel, let's see what our audience here
:23:21. > :23:24.thinks tonight. Is there enough specific information about the
:23:24. > :23:33.consequences of independence for the alternatives? Who thinks there
:23:33. > :23:37.is? Not many. Who think there is not? Pretty overwhelming. Is there
:23:37. > :23:42.are feeling that this debate, although it is barely days, it
:23:42. > :23:48.should move away from the constitutional minutiae of that we
:23:48. > :23:53.had so far into the big issues that matter? I think the big issues are
:23:53. > :23:57.hugely important but I think we also have to say, had you get your
:23:57. > :24:04.information? How do get your information about politics? Where
:24:04. > :24:10.do women get it? And if you have not won a newspaper in the country
:24:10. > :24:13.supporting the yes campaign or even putting out the information that
:24:13. > :24:18.the Yes campaign would like to get out there all the Scottish
:24:18. > :24:22.government, I am not a member of the party, how you get thief
:24:22. > :24:26.information to people? -- how do get the information to people? I
:24:26. > :24:35.have daughters to say the same, I am not hearing it. You are talking
:24:35. > :24:40.about it but no one else. I find that quite depressing, that is
:24:40. > :24:47.where a lot of people off. We still live in a country where women
:24:47. > :24:52.cannot go into certain golf clubs, you cannot play bowls until it is
:24:52. > :24:57.between four and six on a Thursday, there is a self-policing and small
:24:57. > :25:02.conservatism among its women as well. A woman who is an outspoken
:25:02. > :25:06.and goes up there and says what she thinks within working-class
:25:06. > :25:09.communities, can be censored in many ways. She is seen as being a
:25:09. > :25:14.bit too lippy and having a bit too much to say for herself. That does
:25:14. > :25:20.not exist in the same way amongst middle-class women. I think we
:25:20. > :25:26.really have to think about if we want that information, of we have
:25:26. > :25:33.to demand it from our broadcasters and newspapers. To let us know and
:25:33. > :25:38.not only one side, it feels to me as if there has been, the
:25:38. > :25:44.negativity that has come... If you don't know, for there is a No camp
:25:44. > :25:51.and a Yes camp, they have made up their mind. If you're in the middle,
:25:51. > :25:55.it feels like it is a square but thrown up. Work that out. It scares
:25:55. > :25:59.and terrifies people. There is not a platform for the answers to
:25:59. > :26:05.conceive. Five let me ask you about information from the Better
:26:05. > :26:11.Together group, about the various forms of evolution that might
:26:12. > :26:17.follow a no vote. -- forms of devolution. It is not just
:26:17. > :26:20.broadcast media, people have been asking questions, and instead of
:26:20. > :26:24.being presenting honest answers, they are being accused of
:26:24. > :26:29.scaremongering. I think that does a huge disservice to the democratic
:26:29. > :26:37.process which is supposed to be taking place. We are going to go to
:26:37. > :26:40.the audience. I have moved from London to join the Independent's
:26:40. > :26:45.campaign because I do know would be part of the state that goes to wars
:26:45. > :26:48.in Iraq and Afghanistan. I would like to know what the Better
:26:48. > :26:52.Together campaign says about foreign policy and what the yes
:26:52. > :26:56.campaign is going to say about their vision about how to make
:26:56. > :27:01.Scott and more progressive in the world so we live in a more -- how
:27:01. > :27:04.to make Scotland more progressive so we live in a more peaceful world.
:27:05. > :27:09.I think there is quite a straightforward question that the
:27:09. > :27:14.parties have to address, or what difference will your preferred
:27:14. > :27:18.constitutional option make for women? What you going to do about
:27:18. > :27:24.equal pay, child care, gender based violence? We are starting to hear
:27:24. > :27:29.that tonight but we are also hearing about the fact that women
:27:29. > :27:33.it is the problem rather than making the debate about women.
:27:33. > :27:36.Firstly, you suggest that we should be getting our information from the
:27:36. > :27:41.news channels and newspapers. I think we should be getting
:27:41. > :27:44.information from the party who is the proponent of the Independent's
:27:44. > :27:50.campaign. This white paper is not supposed to be published until the
:27:50. > :27:55.autumn. I think everybody has a right to be reticent until then. I
:27:55. > :28:03.think secondly, Elaine, you focus a lot on inequalities between women,
:28:03. > :28:06.we do not feel represented in politics and in the media. I do not
:28:06. > :28:16.see how this will change in an independent Scotland, has the
:28:16. > :28:17.
:28:17. > :28:22.campaign address that? Let's get some questions. Women are still
:28:22. > :28:31.vastly under-represented in politics, even in Hollywood today,
:28:31. > :28:37.so do you think independence could give more prominence to women?
:28:37. > :28:44.20% of Scotland businesses are owned by women, with that figure
:28:44. > :28:46.increase with independent or sticking to the status quo? Heel of
:28:46. > :28:56.a business woman -- she wore a businesswoman, sticking with this
:28:56. > :28:57.
:28:57. > :29:03.gate -- status quo, is it a there? My view is that potentially, it
:29:03. > :29:09.could, could change, in the wrong direction. I think if we have
:29:09. > :29:14.independence in Scotland, the competitiveness for Scotland will
:29:14. > :29:18.be vastly reduced. I think potentially in the long term,
:29:18. > :29:21.start-up spire of men and women, I do not think the constitutional
:29:21. > :29:25.set-up makes a difference to the number of people involved -- women
:29:25. > :29:28.involved in starting businesses. I have been a champion in business
:29:29. > :29:34.for a long time and I believe in Scotland, we are behind the curve
:29:34. > :29:39.and more people can get in -- more people can get involved. For I do
:29:39. > :29:45.not think that is true, to be frank. I think independence can increase
:29:45. > :29:50.the number of women who are involved in starting their own
:29:50. > :29:56.businesses. I am getting to it. The reason is because we can choose
:29:56. > :30:01.what we do with tax. We could for example used tax income to invest
:30:01. > :30:07.more in start-up, we could use it to reduce VAT in certain areas, we
:30:07. > :30:11.could use it to do away with air passenger duty. We would have the
:30:11. > :30:17.choice about what we would do. The prices that we would have would be
:30:17. > :30:21.about choices that fit the Scottish economy. What we have at the moment
:30:21. > :30:25.is economic choices about the UK as a whole which do not fit in with
:30:25. > :30:32.the Scottish economy and play most to the Scottish -- London and the
:30:32. > :30:36.South and East. The other question was about equality. One of the
:30:36. > :30:40.things that we will have if we have an independent Scotland is a
:30:40. > :30:45.written constitution. And in that written constitution, we can
:30:45. > :30:51.write... This is not a debate about party politics. This is our debate.
:30:51. > :30:54.I am not a political party. This is our debate. We can write into that
:30:54. > :31:04.constitution, lobby for it, argue for it to have constitutional right,
:31:04. > :31:06.
:31:06. > :31:12.for example, to equal pay, a living wage. It is up to us. Let's go back
:31:12. > :31:19.to the audience. I work for a business support organisation which
:31:19. > :31:25.is funded by the European Regional Development Fund. I have Mashru
:31:25. > :31:32.concerned about what support there would be for start-up businesses if
:31:32. > :31:37.the funding were to disappear. There is little certainty about the
:31:37. > :31:41.membership of the EU. Pan the Panel on so what the financial situation
:31:41. > :31:51.would be for business support in Scotland for any other programmes
:31:51. > :32:00.
:32:00. > :32:09.get help starting up but desperately unhappy to find there would be no
:32:09. > :32:16.funding. I would do this more as the issue of self-determination, whether
:32:16. > :32:26.or not funding is there, I feel that the Scottish people have the right
:32:26. > :32:32.to determine what happens. At the moment we do not have a democracy.
:32:32. > :32:38.On the issue of political representation, I do not think you
:32:38. > :32:44.can write political representation into the Constitution you are
:32:44. > :32:48.planning. We already have the equal pay act. We have had this for over
:32:48. > :32:55.40 years and we have equality within the United Kingdom. And I'm
:32:55. > :33:00.Pankhurst campaigned for votes for women many years ago. We know it
:33:00. > :33:05.takes more than having things written on paper to achieve equality
:33:05. > :33:10.and representation for women. There is only one party which has taken no
:33:10. > :33:16.steps and that is the party I am proud to be a member of. I am not
:33:16. > :33:19.ashamed to say I am a member of the Labour party. When the Scottish
:33:19. > :33:23.Parliament was created, we need a real effort to ensure that the
:33:23. > :33:31.representation of women was up there. We came really close, we had
:33:31. > :33:36.the highest representation level of women across Europe. Sadly, that has
:33:36. > :33:42.fallen back over the last few years. The party which is leading the
:33:42. > :33:46.independence debate has a wall full record on women's issues. Alex
:33:46. > :33:52.Salmond has only just realised when the poll numbers look Paul -- for
:33:52. > :33:57.there was an issue of child care in this country. We're talking about
:33:57. > :34:03.the real issues that affect women in this country. Let us get a response
:34:03. > :34:11.from Elaine. I do not think we should get into that tribal staff.
:34:11. > :34:16.Women get tired of it. When you get to, I am just going to see what my
:34:16. > :34:22.party does, we can all trade those insults and that is what turns many
:34:22. > :34:32.people away from politics. On the Europe PE and buying as well, -- on
:34:32. > :34:39.the European thing, there is complication but that is even more
:34:39. > :34:45.uncertainty in the next few years, we will be out of Europe anyway
:34:45. > :34:50.because the south-east of England will vote that anyway. A point of
:34:50. > :34:58.clarification, economic development policy is currently devolved to
:34:58. > :35:02.Scotland. We can decide how strategies and policies are devolved
:35:02. > :35:08.to support business start-ups. The key issue is the funding pot which
:35:08. > :35:14.will be available in the future. the audience again, our next
:35:15. > :35:23.question. We will bring in some questions about finance. Alana
:35:23. > :35:26.Cochrane. As a working mum of two young children, can the panel tell
:35:27. > :35:35.me what would happen to tax credits, help with childcare costs and other
:35:35. > :35:39.important benefits in an independent Scotland? Claire Heuchan.
:35:39. > :35:44.Supporters of independence talk about a fairer Scotland. But they
:35:44. > :35:50.seem to think this can only be achieved by a large state. What can
:35:50. > :35:54.they offer people who don't want a tax and spend Scotland?
:35:54. > :35:58.I think it is fair to say that the yes Scotland vision seems to be for
:35:58. > :36:05.a large public sector and generous welfare benefits, who will pay for
:36:05. > :36:09.it? I'm not sure I do agree with that. The first decision we make is
:36:09. > :36:13.whether or not we want to have independence. If we choose that, we
:36:13. > :36:17.will then choose the kind of government we want. A lot of the
:36:17. > :36:26.issues people are talking about will be down to that second choice
:36:26. > :36:30.about, do you vote for which party and their manifesto. The Scotland
:36:30. > :36:34.campaign is pointing out that the current situation that working
:36:34. > :36:43.mothers, mothers with children, people with disabilities, are
:36:43. > :36:48.currently facing, the bedroom tax, we will have 50,000 more children in
:36:48. > :36:50.Scotland and poverty by 2020, it is those choices this current
:36:50. > :36:57.government are making but they do not have to be like that in
:36:57. > :37:02.Scotland. We are the eighth wealthiest country in the world,
:37:02. > :37:06.Scotland is, but we are part of the UK which is the fourth most unequal
:37:06. > :37:12.country in the world. It is not about if we can afford this but
:37:12. > :37:16.about what choices we make about how we use our income and how we support
:37:16. > :37:22.our citizens and how we support economic prosperity and growth.
:37:22. > :37:25.Those choices may come to others if we fought for independence. If you
:37:25. > :37:29.advocate the status quo does that mean you're happy with the situation
:37:29. > :37:35.as intense, with the city at the moment and some of the benefit
:37:35. > :37:41.cuts? No, I am not happy with the situation at the moment. I am fully
:37:41. > :37:47.in favour of having a large state that provides for its citizens. I do
:37:47. > :37:51.not think having independence is the only way to achieve that. The people
:37:51. > :37:56.who are suffering in Scotland as a result of the benefit changes and
:37:56. > :38:02.the welfare cuts are experiencing the same challenges of people living
:38:02. > :38:09.just across the border or further says. I would like to see a Federer
:38:09. > :38:14.United Kingdom, are more equal United Kingdom. I United Kingdom
:38:14. > :38:19.where we share the risk and provide for the most honourable people in
:38:19. > :38:25.society. I believe we should do that for the entire country. I think it
:38:25. > :38:29.would be terrible for the North of England is to be abandoned by
:38:29. > :38:38.Scotland's when it is that the most vulnerable stage of these welfare
:38:38. > :38:44.reforms. I think it would be a real tragedy. I listened sympathetically
:38:44. > :38:47.to these points. I would love to believe in UK and Westminster
:38:47. > :38:51.Government which would fairly represent the population of the
:38:51. > :38:57.country what it does not. The heading towards hung parliament
:38:57. > :39:05.after Hong parliament. Wearing coalition in Westminster and the
:39:05. > :39:09.heat it. We do coalition well in Scotland. Why would we not want to
:39:09. > :39:18.jettison Westminster who are against electoral reform and cannot work
:39:18. > :39:24.together in a cross-party we? moment, as you say, people being
:39:24. > :39:28.affected by the welfare reform implementations, is going
:39:28. > :39:34.independent not a chance to undo some of this decision and move
:39:34. > :39:44.forward to be the Scottish culture we are where we were after our own?
:39:44. > :39:46.
:39:46. > :39:48.The young lady in the second row. You say that if we have a
:39:48. > :39:51.constitution, we can make the decisions about Scotland, but who is
:39:52. > :39:55.going to write that constitution? The people who are in power now
:39:55. > :40:05.should make those negotiations before we decide who we have in
:40:05. > :40:06.
:40:06. > :40:12.power. How will the influence that? The SNP and the Yes campaign is not
:40:12. > :40:17.just about the SNP. Many other parties are involved. People like
:40:17. > :40:21.myself and Elaine are not in parties. They will not write the
:40:21. > :40:28.constitution and make the decisions on policies unless they win the
:40:28. > :40:35.election in 2016. What they will do between 2014 and 2016 is negotiate
:40:35. > :40:40.with the UK Government to get those powers back on tax and benefits and
:40:40. > :40:43.on a range of other issues. We will be negotiating on our behalf but
:40:43. > :40:50.they will not be making decisions about the kind of policies we will
:40:50. > :40:56.have. The written constitution, my personal view is that we should
:40:56. > :41:01.start writing it. We should start lobbying for it. As women, we have
:41:01. > :41:10.lots of views and opinions. Why don't we start doing that now and
:41:10. > :41:14.see to the parties, that is the constitution we want. We're hearing
:41:14. > :41:19.this evening about a number of aspirations in the audience and
:41:19. > :41:22.frustration about current policy be it UK policy or Scottish policy will
:41:22. > :41:27.stop we had a question about the size of the public sector in
:41:27. > :41:32.Scotland. The fundamental thing is to move Scotland forward in an
:41:32. > :41:38.aspirational methods, you need money, you need infrastructure and
:41:38. > :41:44.funding. You have to decide how budgets will be spent and how they
:41:44. > :41:47.will be prioritised, tough choices have to be made. If we do not have a
:41:47. > :41:51.solid budget and solid infrastructure behind us in
:41:51. > :41:57.Scotland, if we cannot afford to look after our sick and ageing
:41:57. > :42:02.population, none of these things can be realised. I support the aims of
:42:02. > :42:06.Better Together. I do not speak for then nor a political party. I
:42:06. > :42:13.operate for Scotland around the world. I have champions Scotland for
:42:13. > :42:18.25 years. I want Scotland to succeed. We need a strong
:42:18. > :42:27.foundation. It is lunacy to cut ourselves off and build for the
:42:27. > :42:29.future. We will not have the funding, investment will go. I was
:42:29. > :42:35.involved with the highly prestigious financial institution foreign number
:42:35. > :42:40.of viewers. It was my job to ask people to give us their money to
:42:40. > :42:46.invest on their behalf. We were told from day one of our training, on
:42:46. > :42:51.pain of instant dismissal, you can never project a potential return,
:42:51. > :42:57.you can only talk about past performance. I would suggest to you
:42:57. > :43:00.that it would be lovely if we could sit here and say, everybody's house
:43:00. > :43:06.will be filled with gold and we will live in a land of milk and honey,
:43:06. > :43:10.that would be great but we cannot say that. We can look at past
:43:10. > :43:16.performance of what has been inflicted on Scotland by Westminster
:43:16. > :43:22.and say, is this what we want in our children? I certainly do not want it
:43:22. > :43:29.for my grandchildren. If you honestly think that Ed Balls, Ed
:43:29. > :43:35.Miliband, Joanne laminate, honestly are going to have our road to
:43:35. > :43:42.Damascus experience and time round, you are self delusional. Thank you
:43:42. > :43:45.very much. We just have time for one more question. Isobel Campbell.
:43:45. > :43:51.Would women benefit more from independence or staying with the
:43:51. > :43:55.current arrangements. I think women would benefit from seeing with the
:43:55. > :43:59.current arrangements because we have the best of both worlds, we have a
:43:59. > :44:05.strong Scottish Parliament in Holyrood and we had opportunity to
:44:05. > :44:11.vote for a new government at Westminster in 2015. That is our
:44:11. > :44:15.democracy. We have the best of both worlds. I would obviously as I have
:44:15. > :44:21.stated, believe that women would have opportunities if we could write
:44:21. > :44:26.our Constitution and decide on what the policies on Scotland would be.
:44:26. > :44:33.believe in my heart and head that the opportunities for women would be
:44:33. > :44:39.better. I have a lot of sympathy for what you have been saying, I come
:44:39. > :44:44.from that persuasion as well from supporting labour for many years. I
:44:44. > :44:48.do not think the people of Scotland believe it any more. The corrupt
:44:48. > :44:55.institutions of the British date will not deliver to those who need
:44:55. > :45:02.it the best. -- the British state. More jam in a couple of years is not
:45:02. > :45:07.good enough any more. Amanda. Scotland is enough and classic
:45:07. > :45:12.position. It is doing very well in many areas and has a tremendous
:45:12. > :45:17.platform from which to build. That situation has been done as being
:45:17. > :45:25.part of the United Kingdom. That will provide greater opportunity to
:45:25. > :45:29.women. Amanda made my case there. The fact of why Scotland is doing
:45:29. > :45:35.well and has a great platform to build on is because Scots have done
:45:35. > :45:41.that. If we can do that as part of a union which does not affect us any
:45:41. > :45:48.more, how much can we do if we have the power in our own hands? Sadly
:45:48. > :45:50.we've run out of time. Thank you to our panel and our studio audience.