:00:17. > :00:21.Wormwood Scrubs would have stopped right to childcare and more flexible
:00:21. > :00:24.working. A group of MSPs believes that is the key to tackling
:00:24. > :00:30.inequality in the workplace. But what can we learn from the billions
:00:30. > :00:34.appearance in Sweden? And as polling day edges closer, we
:00:34. > :00:38.are in Aberdeen to speak to the candidates on the campaign trail as
:00:38. > :00:41.local issues dominate the Donside by-election. Good evening. For
:00:41. > :00:46.decades there have been attempts to reduce inequalities between the
:00:46. > :00:49.sexes in the workplace. Now, Holyrood's equal opportunities
:00:49. > :00:52.committee wants families to have a statutory right to childcare for
:00:52. > :00:57.children up to the age of 15. At that raises the question how would
:00:57. > :01:01.it be paid for? The move would bring us more in line with countries like
:01:01. > :01:11.Sweden, often held up as an example of generous childcare provision. Can
:01:11. > :01:11.
:01:11. > :01:16.their experience provide any answers? Hello. How are you?As a
:01:16. > :01:20.self-employed mother of three, this woman has her work cut out. Juggling
:01:20. > :01:26.work and children can be a constant pressure, but she is determined to
:01:26. > :01:29.make it work. It was a baptism of fire. The first year was hard
:01:29. > :01:37.because not only did we have the pressure of juggling three
:01:37. > :01:40.children, we had the pressure of is this business going to work, are we
:01:40. > :01:47.going to earn enough money, is it going to be enough to sustain us
:01:47. > :01:55.both? The worry put the burden on us and definitely distracted us from
:01:55. > :02:02.organising ourselves. Before starting her company, she worked in
:02:02. > :02:07.the charity sector. She said having an employer wasn't always easy.
:02:07. > :02:14.ask you about your personal life and your social situation and you would
:02:14. > :02:20.say I am recently married, I've got two children. There would be a sense
:02:20. > :02:25.that perhaps they would see you as a high-risk member of staff. There was
:02:25. > :02:30.a time when things seemed much worse. Back in the late 1960s,
:02:30. > :02:34.female workers at this plant, fed up with sexual discrimination, walked
:02:34. > :02:40.out in protest demanding equality with their male colleagues. This led
:02:40. > :02:45.to the equal pay act in 1970. Questions are being asked about how
:02:45. > :02:49.much has changed in the intervening years. The Scottish Parliament? The
:02:49. > :02:54.Scottish Parliament's equal opportunities committee has today
:02:54. > :03:04.published its findings. It said the evidence given to its enquiry by
:03:04. > :03:28.
:03:28. > :03:31.female witnesses was depressingly problems like lack of flexible
:03:31. > :03:35.working among employers are leading to what are called occupational
:03:35. > :03:38.segregation when it comes to women in the workplace. The Scottish
:03:38. > :03:43.government says it has been well aware of these problems for a while
:03:43. > :03:47.and says it is taking action to do something about it. We recognise
:03:47. > :03:50.that we need to do what we can to support families across the
:03:50. > :03:56.country. We also recognise that childcare is don't just stop at the
:03:56. > :04:00.age of five either. The first step has been to make sure that three and
:04:00. > :04:10.four-year-old provision is delivered in a flexible way and meets the
:04:10. > :04:10.
:04:10. > :04:15.requirements of three and four-year-olds. That may be the case
:04:15. > :04:21.but the mums at this Edinburgh nursery say it could be done better.
:04:21. > :04:26.I wouldn't say just more childcare without a caveat on that seeing more
:04:26. > :04:32.childcare that is good for the children rather than a place to park
:04:32. > :04:38.your children after school or when you're at work. When I had two
:04:38. > :04:46.children in nursery childcare, I just about broke even. My salary is
:04:46. > :04:51.OK but I don't work as a lawyer or doctor. I think if I didn't have a
:04:51. > :04:55.place that I could know, peace of mind, that the children were happy
:04:55. > :05:01.and enjoying themselves and being part of something that help them
:05:01. > :05:07.develop, I would probably have stopped work. It's probably that you
:05:07. > :05:13.get a bit more financial help for having children. In the beginning
:05:13. > :05:17.for the little ones, but also for the older ones. My pick -- my wages
:05:17. > :05:25.are paying for something more than childcare. Maybe other nurseries are
:05:25. > :05:29.supported as well in offering care for school drop-offs, after-school
:05:29. > :05:36.care, and nice environment that they feel happy and provides care, more
:05:36. > :05:38.than just a couple of years. Holyrood's equal opportunities
:05:38. > :05:44.committee says it wants the government to set out how it will
:05:44. > :05:50.deliver a re-dash-mac a legal right for childcare up to the age of 15.
:05:50. > :05:54.It could also be very expensive so is it worth it? Sweden has a growing
:05:54. > :05:58.reputation for its generous cap -- childcare facilities. It is
:05:58. > :06:03.regularly ranked as one of the best places to raise a family. The state
:06:03. > :06:10.spends the equivalent of �5 billion a year on preschool services. That's
:06:11. > :06:18.more than its defence budget. Back in Scotland's life for families
:06:18. > :06:25.continues as normal. Will this mean and move towards Scandinavian
:06:25. > :06:31.models? With me is Angela O'Hagan from the
:06:31. > :06:36.Scottish women's budget group and in our Edinburgh studio is Dr Ingela
:06:36. > :06:44.Naumann, a lecturer in social policy at Edinburgh University. Angela
:06:44. > :06:51.O'Hagan, is this a serious problem? This question of childcare
:06:51. > :06:56.preventing going out to work? Absolutely. The evidence at the
:06:56. > :07:00.communes -- committee demonstrated from a range of witnesses the kinds
:07:00. > :07:05.of problems that women and some men experience in terms of women's
:07:05. > :07:14.coming back into the labour market, having the level of skill and
:07:14. > :07:19.qualification with which they left. But if you are someone who has got a
:07:19. > :07:27.young child, you're a woman and you won't go out to work, what's
:07:27. > :07:32.childcare support can you expect from the state? There is the nursery
:07:32. > :07:40.provision which exists to local authorities but as we know there are
:07:40. > :07:43.both insufficient space is... You're not guaranteed a place, so provision
:07:43. > :07:47.is across Scotland. It's not fair to say there is insufficient places to
:07:47. > :07:53.meet the political commitments and the targets but it is patchy. What
:07:54. > :07:59.we also know is the cost of childcare in the UK and in Scotland
:07:59. > :08:03.is extremely high and rising. even if you've got a place through a
:08:03. > :08:06.local authority you still have to pay for it? It's a small number of
:08:06. > :08:11.hours that you're covered for so if women are trying to paid work
:08:11. > :08:15.outside the home in a sustainable ongoing way, nursery provision,
:08:15. > :08:22.local authority nursery provision isn't going to meet that need to be
:08:22. > :08:27.able to work. It certainly doesn't meet shift pattern and the nine to
:08:27. > :08:31.five. Women have to rely on other family members, other forms of child
:08:31. > :08:35.care, whether it's childminding or private nurseries. What the
:08:35. > :08:44.committee was clear run in its evidence was the range of provision
:08:44. > :08:48.across Scotland, there is even more of a patchwork. You would back this
:08:48. > :08:53.idea that there to be a guarantee, not just for younger children,
:08:53. > :09:02.because they have done something in the three to four, but right up to
:09:02. > :09:06.15? Today's report opens up the debate in two important ways. One is
:09:06. > :09:10.around statutory right and provision and the others a very clear message
:09:10. > :09:16.that quality, affordable childcare is about economic development. There
:09:16. > :09:20.is an economic imperative to bring women into the workforce. That is an
:09:20. > :09:28.important point. The argument is this should be seen as a matter of
:09:28. > :09:33.building economic infrastructure, not just a form of social welfare.
:09:33. > :09:39.We are generally told that we ought to be more like Sweden in these
:09:39. > :09:45.matters. This is one area where Sweden excels. What happens there?
:09:45. > :09:52.It is indeed. I would also like to emphasise that some of the points
:09:52. > :09:57.that have been taken by the report to mirror some of the conceptions of
:09:57. > :10:02.the Swedish childcare system. One of them is that childcare is not seen
:10:02. > :10:05.as a cost but as an investment. It is an investment in society, an
:10:05. > :10:12.investment in the children because childcare is not seen as childcare
:10:12. > :10:19.but also as early years provision, as preschool provision. It's seen as
:10:19. > :10:25.an investment in parents and their human capital. They can go to work.
:10:25. > :10:30.It is seen as an investment in the economy. The Swedish economy is
:10:30. > :10:34.doing quite well, so it is seen as a social investment in the sense that
:10:34. > :10:41.children can go to universal and comprehensive, good quality
:10:41. > :10:45.childcare facilities. There are parents can go to work. But explain
:10:45. > :10:51.what happens, because unlike what Angela O'Hagan has described, in
:10:51. > :10:56.Sweden the state will provide a lot of hours for a very low cost?
:10:56. > :11:00.Absolutely, the Swedish system is fully integrated. It guarantees a
:11:00. > :11:07.place for all children from age one school-age, a full-time place and
:11:07. > :11:11.full year round place. It is publicly funded predominantly so the
:11:11. > :11:18.state will take on over 90% of the childcare cost and put -- and
:11:18. > :11:23.parental fees are very low, from the Scottish purse -- perspective. They
:11:23. > :11:31.are 3% of the household income for the first time, but for many it is
:11:31. > :11:37.lower. So for parents in Sweden, childcare costs are not so much the
:11:37. > :11:46.issue. The debates are more about the quality, the type of childcare
:11:46. > :11:51.benefit. Swedish parents to consider childcare to be there right, so once
:11:51. > :11:59.they come from parental leave, maternity leave... Just make people
:11:59. > :12:03.here even more envious, because that all comes on top of maternity
:12:03. > :12:11.leave, and indeed paternity leave, which is much more generous and
:12:11. > :12:18.funded by the state? Yes, it is important to see that childcare
:12:18. > :12:21.element is one set of a broad set of policies. You will have to see
:12:21. > :12:27.childcare in conjunction with parental leave, in Sweden for
:12:27. > :12:31.example you have 16 months of parental leave that can be shared
:12:31. > :12:37.between partners. This is important because in Scotland we only have two
:12:37. > :12:43.weeks of paternity leave which is short in terms of gender equality
:12:43. > :12:47.towards men. I'm sure we can do better. We have a fully integrated
:12:47. > :12:50.system across the whole age range. There is a guarantee that the
:12:50. > :12:54.parents can look after the children when they are very small, there is a
:12:54. > :12:59.guarantee that there is a childcare place when they return to work and a
:12:59. > :13:03.guarantee of after-school care when the children are in school. What I
:13:03. > :13:10.take from it, Angela O'Hagan, is that there has been a decision going
:13:10. > :13:14.back to the 60s, almost the whole of society decided this is an important
:13:14. > :13:19.economic issue, it's not about welfare benefits, it's not about
:13:20. > :13:25.being nice to women who want to go back to work. Do you think, here in
:13:25. > :13:31.the UK or in Scotland, we are really prepared to shift perspectives and
:13:31. > :13:35.that fundamental way? We have to be. We have to take the economic
:13:35. > :13:38.challenges that are facing us. We have to be getting more women into
:13:38. > :13:43.paid, sustainable jobs. We have to be supporting children in the way
:13:44. > :13:52.described. We are talking about economic imperative, investment in
:13:52. > :13:56.our human capital, children as our workers of the future. One of
:13:56. > :14:00.the... The Minister for youth and Kleiman said the committee that it
:14:00. > :14:08.was time for a shift in culture and aspiration and that is what we have
:14:08. > :14:11.to push forward here. The problem is it costs a fortune. I don't think we
:14:11. > :14:16.should start from the premise that it costs a fortune or that we can't
:14:16. > :14:22.afford it. In the middle of the biggest financial crisis since the
:14:23. > :14:27.1970s, it is a relevant consideration. There is an
:14:27. > :14:35.alternative starting point which is can we afford not to? Investment in
:14:35. > :14:38.childcare in Sweden means greater participation in the labour market.
:14:38. > :14:44.If women are paying tax, spending money in their families, in the
:14:44. > :14:51.local economy, we cannot afford not to. We are keeping women
:14:51. > :14:59.particularly out of the labour market. Sweden is spending more on
:14:59. > :15:05.this than on defence? It's very expensive, isn't it? It is
:15:05. > :15:10.expensive, but it is not so much less expensive than in the UK. The
:15:10. > :15:18.UK is the third highest spender following Denmark and Sweden. It's a
:15:18. > :15:23.question how we spend our money. government has suggested, and it has
:15:23. > :15:26.met with a lot of hostility, that caters of young children should be
:15:26. > :15:30.able to take care of a few more than they are allowed to at the moment.
:15:30. > :15:37.That already happens in Sweden, doesn't it? It's difficult to
:15:37. > :15:41.compare that, because in Sweden there are quite high standards on
:15:41. > :15:49.the professionalisation of the care workforce. You have a different
:15:49. > :15:54.situation there. I want to ask you about something is, the debate here
:15:54. > :16:00.in Scotland tends to be about we need more money to be paid out to
:16:00. > :16:05.people who need to do certain things. If you were women who took
:16:05. > :16:10.advantage of this Swedish system, you would be expected to go out to
:16:10. > :16:17.work after you receive those benefits? There's a certain contract
:16:17. > :16:24.in the Swedish welfare state, that there is generous support for people
:16:24. > :16:27.jeering periods where they cannot work because of childcare. But that
:16:27. > :16:37.they return something to society through their work when they are
:16:37. > :16:43.finished. Every adult in the Swedish system is expected to work. Would a
:16:43. > :16:51.woman be disapproved of by society should she decide to the estate home
:16:51. > :16:55.mother? Absolutely.Presumably, things like unemployment and welfare
:16:55. > :17:00.benefits, you get them when you need them but there would be very little
:17:00. > :17:04.tolerance of people living on benefits for a long time. The system
:17:04. > :17:10.is fairly strict there. If you are on benefits you are expected to find
:17:10. > :17:17.work as fast as possible. It is seen as a transition phase. I want to get
:17:17. > :17:23.Angela, do you think, it is a very different system there. Will people
:17:23. > :17:28.by that aspect over their court -- over here? The idea that you
:17:28. > :17:32.couldn't choose to be a stay at home mum. We have to value children, we
:17:32. > :17:39.have to value caring for children, whether we do that through paid on
:17:39. > :17:44.deployment in the childcare sector or by staying at home. The report
:17:44. > :17:54.from the committee is very clear. The Scottish government are clear
:17:54. > :18:03.
:18:03. > :18:06.about valuing childcare. Thank you Just one full day of campaigning
:18:06. > :18:10.left in the Aberdeen Donside by- election, it has been a lively
:18:10. > :18:16.campaign. The people of Aberdeen like their
:18:16. > :18:21.cars, luxury brands and private number plates serve as prosperity
:18:21. > :18:25.signifiers. But that means wherever there are cars, there is traffic,
:18:25. > :18:30.so frustration is never far away. Right at the heart of the Donside
:18:30. > :18:33.constituency is a monument to that constituency. The Hannigan
:18:33. > :18:37.roundabout is a notorious bottleneck for people travelling
:18:38. > :18:44.out of the city. It has been the same fee years, traffic backed up
:18:44. > :18:49.in all directions, people going nowhere quickly. For the last few
:18:49. > :18:53.weeks, the roundabout once crowned Britain's worst has been in
:18:54. > :18:57.familiar territory, at the heart of the political scrap. With the by-
:18:57. > :19:04.election in full swing, Donside Motors have traffic was at the
:19:04. > :19:08.forefront of their -- traffic was at the forefront of their minds.
:19:08. > :19:13.The priority is getting Aberdeen right. The roundabout, the
:19:13. > :19:20.crossings, the new peripheral routes, it has all been going for
:19:20. > :19:23.years and years. Now it needs to be happening. Someone is to get the
:19:23. > :19:30.pavements and roads sort it, then it will be likes for the disabled.
:19:30. > :19:34.It must be hard for them. amounts of money that there isn't a
:19:34. > :19:39.city, we do not seem to see any development, it is not visible,
:19:39. > :19:42.anyway. Score there are another issue. This is one of two in the
:19:42. > :19:45.constituency threatened with closure -- schools are another
:19:45. > :19:49.issue. Campaigners say the by- election has given them a platform
:19:50. > :19:53.to make a case. The normally a by- election is not exciting but it is
:19:53. > :20:00.about local issues and it is raising the profile of the school,
:20:00. > :20:07.and the school closure which we think is unfair.
:20:07. > :20:10.Brian Adam, Scottish National Party, 40,790 votes. The trigger for the
:20:10. > :20:14.by-election was the death of Brian Adam. Two years ago a popular and
:20:14. > :20:19.well respected figure, he won the seat for the SNP with a majority of
:20:19. > :20:24.more than 7000. Tasked with defending that victory is Mark
:20:24. > :20:30.McDonald, a man who gave up a seat bidding to preserve Alex Salmond's
:20:30. > :20:34.majority in the Scottish parliament. We have new NHS dental facilities
:20:34. > :20:38.in the facility can NHS dental waiting lists are down. We have had
:20:38. > :20:41.four new schools delivered by the SNP, we are out to tender in the
:20:41. > :20:45.contracts for the Aberdeen bypass, and once that is delivered we will
:20:45. > :20:49.fix the roundabout. We are committing �1 billion of investment
:20:49. > :20:53.to Aberdeen to improve the situation for people in Donside.
:20:53. > :20:57.This by-election has an interesting dynamic in that all of the major
:20:57. > :21:01.parties are in power to some degree and have a record to defend. For
:21:02. > :21:06.the SNP, that means coming to an area like this, one of the city's
:21:07. > :21:10.most deprived, and countering their opponents' claims that their
:21:10. > :21:15.administration is a short changing Aberdeen. That is the message from
:21:15. > :21:20.Willie Young, the Labour candidate whose role as Aberdeen council's
:21:20. > :21:24.finance convenor has been under close scrutiny. I am an outspoken
:21:24. > :21:28.person in opposition, and I think I have been able to say what is right
:21:28. > :21:32.for the people of Aberdeen. If you look at the negativity of the
:21:32. > :21:36.budget cuts from the SNP, you are not finding that from us. We bought
:21:36. > :21:41.a balanced budget to the council. People are warming to me, shaking
:21:41. > :21:44.my hands and saying hello. I think we are doing the right thing.
:21:44. > :21:48.council administration is a coalition between Labour and
:21:48. > :21:57.Conservatives. Ross Thomson is another putting forward his council
:21:57. > :22:01.could pensions -- credentials to send him to Holyrood. Local issues
:22:01. > :22:06.are good, so this is why people want people to be sent to Holyrood
:22:06. > :22:12.to sign up for -- to stand up for them. I have a track record, of
:22:12. > :22:18.that, as so I would never say it was a tour past -- too hot race, it
:22:18. > :22:22.is unpredictable. There is a long tradition of Liberal Democrats
:22:22. > :22:25.standing up for people of the north-east and Aberdeen. Voters
:22:25. > :22:29.recognise that, they were unhappy with us two years ago but they are
:22:29. > :22:33.coming back and telling us that they are not happy with the SNP or
:22:33. > :22:39.Labour because they have let them down. And from the Greens, their
:22:39. > :22:43.own solutions to the transport problems. We want to concentrate on
:22:43. > :22:46.public transport, we see that is the way forward. You cannot keep
:22:46. > :22:52.building more and more roads and bridges, because you are increasing
:22:52. > :22:56.more traffic and congestion then. This vote will be the first test of
:22:56. > :23:00.the ballot box since the date for the referendum was announced. Those
:23:00. > :23:04.who have followed every cough and spit of the campaign do not believe
:23:04. > :23:08.independence has been a big factor. It has not had a big part to play.
:23:08. > :23:12.Labour have been trying to wrap it up and make independence an issue
:23:12. > :23:18.for the election but it has not worked, the SNP has been diligent
:23:18. > :23:23.and keeping him out and looks in on local issues. A visit to the local
:23:23. > :23:28.bookmakers offered a chance to read the runes. The odds have the SNP as
:23:28. > :23:32.clear favourites in a contest which is not exactly get in the punters
:23:32. > :23:36.flocking. But what matters is not how things stacked up at this
:23:36. > :23:40.counter, it is have a votes stack up when the polls close on Thursday.
:23:40. > :23:47.Full more information on the Aberdeen Donside by-election, visit