:00:01. > :00:11.You can hear the whole documentary by visiting the BBC Asian Network
:00:11. > :00:13.
:00:13. > :00:16.Tonight on Newsnight Scotland: We've been inside Glasgow's schools to see
:00:16. > :00:18.how they're trying to improve results for some of Scotland's
:00:18. > :00:22.poorest children. Can they match the extraordinary results seen in
:00:22. > :00:25.London? Good evening. Last month we looked
:00:25. > :00:31.at how the London challenge improved the standards of the capital's
:00:31. > :00:33.schools. At the turn of the century, they had a terrible reputation for
:00:33. > :00:37.poor attainment. But in 2003 the then Labour Government pumped extra
:00:37. > :00:40.cash and resources in to help turn them around. A number of the schools
:00:40. > :00:43.were in disadvantaged areas. In less than a decade these schools have
:00:43. > :00:46.gone from the worst in the country to among the best. Given Glasgow's
:00:46. > :00:49.challenges with similar problems, could we learn anything here from
:00:49. > :00:53.the London challenge experience? Ian Hamilton visited two Glasgow schools
:00:53. > :00:56.- a primary and a secondary in opposite ends of the city - to hear
:00:56. > :01:02.how they are trying to turn the fortunes around for the city's
:01:02. > :01:05.children. Last month I reported from London,
:01:05. > :01:10.where I discovered they had gone from having some of the worst
:01:10. > :01:15.schools in England to some of the best, in less than one decade. But
:01:15. > :01:25.that was London, and this is Glasgow. What is the council doing
:01:25. > :01:43.
:01:43. > :01:50.to improve the standards of schools The pupils at Castlemilk High School
:01:50. > :01:56.are squeezing in one final rehearsal for the autumn show. This secondary
:01:56. > :02:01.school is one of the smallest in the city, with only 430 pupils, but this
:02:01. > :02:10.does not hold it back, nor does it being located in one of the poorest
:02:10. > :02:16.parts of Glasgow. What is remarkable about this school is that 99% of its
:02:16. > :02:19.leavers last year either find a job, an apprenticeship or a place at
:02:19. > :02:24.university or college, making Castlemilk High School not only the
:02:24. > :02:29.best in Glasgow but one of the best in Scotland for school leavers. So
:02:29. > :02:34.how did they achieve this? According to the headteacher, it is all about
:02:34. > :02:39.relationships. It is a long time since the only thing that mattered
:02:39. > :02:42.was your curricular expertise. It does count, but what is really
:02:42. > :02:51.important to effective teaching is that we can build relationships with
:02:51. > :02:56.children. For many years, the number of schools in Glasgow have not had
:02:56. > :03:00.the best reputation. For some areas that was due to a background of
:03:00. > :03:05.economic deprivation. According to the Director of education,
:03:05. > :03:11.Glasgow's situation is so unique, it is unreasonable to compare it with
:03:11. > :03:19.any other local authority. If you take statistics that link to areas
:03:19. > :03:25.of multiple deprivation, Glasgow has 26,700 children living in the 10%
:03:25. > :03:32.most deprived postcodes. One of my neighbouring authorities has 363. We
:03:32. > :03:38.play a different game in the city. They believe that Glasgow City
:03:38. > :03:42.Council have two focus and nourishment and nurturing, because
:03:42. > :03:52.if they do not, some of these boys in the East End of the city would
:03:52. > :03:55.
:03:55. > :03:59.not see their 55th birthday. That is why here in macro -- tempter -- St
:03:59. > :04:05.Anne's Primary School, they are starting them young, teaching them
:04:05. > :04:09.about healthy eating. Children need to recognise that they are valued,
:04:09. > :04:15.laughed, and have lots to offer. We need to make sure they have the
:04:16. > :04:21.skills to be able to do that, and that can be hired because of the
:04:21. > :04:26.challenges the children come from. What did the pupils think?
:04:26. > :04:32.favourite thing here would probably be inside in the classroom. Do you
:04:33. > :04:39.feel quite confident at this school? Yes, because I know if there is
:04:39. > :04:43.anything wrong -- if I do anything wrong, nobody will say anything
:04:43. > :04:48.because you are trying your best. like the teachers, I like the
:04:48. > :04:56.lessons, and we do not just learn with our heads down and working, we
:04:56. > :05:01.get to play fun games to help us learn about it more. We have
:05:01. > :05:05.children coming to school who have not eaten the night before, or they
:05:05. > :05:09.did not eat properly, so how can they sit down in classes and learn?
:05:09. > :05:16.We need to think about the whole child, and all our interactions with
:05:16. > :05:23.children. Glasgow is starting to see more than a glimmer of hope. In the
:05:23. > :05:28.past five years, they have seen a 9% increase in gaining one or more
:05:28. > :05:33.Highers in fifth year, and by the end of fourth year they are seeing a
:05:33. > :05:39.7.5% increase in pupils gaining five or more level threes. Attendance at
:05:39. > :05:43.secondary schools is more than 90%, the highest it has ever been. We are
:05:43. > :05:46.still a long way behind other local authorities, but given the
:05:46. > :05:51.challenges in the city, this academic believe that Glasgow should
:05:51. > :05:57.be praised for the work they have done. I think Glasgow is making huge
:05:57. > :06:02.strides to deliver the sort of change that the London challenge
:06:02. > :06:05.delivered, but without the same funding. I think that is brave and
:06:05. > :06:13.difficult task, and a task quite frankly that they deserve to praised
:06:13. > :06:18.for. If you had the resources that the London challenge and the city
:06:18. > :06:23.challenge have got, could you tackle a lot of the problems in Glasgow?
:06:23. > :06:30.think that I could use the money carefully and wisely. I don't think
:06:30. > :06:34.that I need a massive amount of money. Currently, 2013, 2014, and
:06:34. > :06:39.the forecast for beyond financially, is going to make it very difficult
:06:39. > :06:47.to continue to improve. That is without a shadow of a doubt. Two
:06:47. > :06:51.thirds of the budget is taken up in salaries. So some difficult
:06:51. > :06:56.decisions ahead for Glasgow City Council. St Anne's Primary School
:06:56. > :07:00.choir has travelled the UK with the message of hope and self belief.
:07:00. > :07:04.From one of the poorest parts of the country. The big question for
:07:04. > :07:07.Glasgow City Council and the Scottish Government, can they invest
:07:08. > :07:11.in these children to give them the same opportunities as those from
:07:11. > :07:14.wealthier backgrounds? I'm joined in the studio by Stephen
:07:14. > :07:17.Curran, who is Executive Member for Education on Glasgow Council and by
:07:17. > :07:24.Dr Sue Ellis from Strathclyde University, who you saw in that
:07:24. > :07:31.film. In Edinburgh is Alex Massie of The Spectator.
:07:31. > :07:37.I think everyone will be impressed by the effort, but this statistic
:07:37. > :07:44.about Castlemilk, but 99% of the students who leave go on to a job or
:07:44. > :07:51.apprenticeship. That would not mean that in a conventional league table
:07:51. > :07:54.but is necessarily a particularly good school, would it? Positive
:07:54. > :08:00.destinations mean something positive... But where would that
:08:00. > :08:03.rate compared to other institutions in Glasgow? If you look at the
:08:03. > :08:08.number of Highers, it is different, but the young people there are
:08:08. > :08:15.moving on to a far better place, and we would expect better for them over
:08:15. > :08:21.time. But is that one of your poorest schools better schools? In a
:08:21. > :08:30.strictly academic sense. It is an area that is very deprived, so it
:08:30. > :08:36.has done exceptionally well. But it is still one of your poorer ones.
:08:36. > :08:40.The other thing is, when Diane King, the headteacher, talks about
:08:40. > :08:45.the most important thing being building relationships, I am not
:08:45. > :08:49.sure what she meant. She means understanding the young people and
:08:49. > :08:52.getting the best opportunities for them. Some could be in circumstances
:08:52. > :08:59.where it is difficult to do homework, so they will have homework
:08:59. > :09:02.classes in the school. Some might be coming from difficult
:09:02. > :09:07.circumstances. So it is understanding the challenges they
:09:07. > :09:12.have at school and making sure they get the best out of school in a safe
:09:12. > :09:20.environment. Sue Ellis, I think everyone here will agree that what
:09:20. > :09:27.Glasgow is trying to do is laudable, but the fact is we are not seeing
:09:27. > :09:37.the dramatic turnaround that we saw in London, I'll be? Two I think what
:09:37. > :09:40.
:09:40. > :09:44.happened in London took ten years. Going back to that issue about
:09:45. > :09:48.relationships, what we know about children and learning, is that
:09:48. > :09:52.unless they feel secure and comfortable and confident in what
:09:52. > :09:57.they are doing, they will not try and attempt difficult tasks, and
:09:57. > :10:01.they will not be learning anything. So that willingness to have a go if
:10:01. > :10:04.you like is really absolutely crucial, and if you do not get that
:10:04. > :10:12.right, if the children are sitting there and they feel that any attempt
:10:12. > :10:16.they make will be belittled then... But you said in the film there that
:10:16. > :10:23.Glasgow does not have the money. There was not very much money, it
:10:23. > :10:32.was about �50,000 per school, but Chris Cook of the financial Times
:10:32. > :10:37.work out that a child entering from the poorest area of London into a
:10:37. > :10:44.state school now, can expect to come out with the average result for the
:10:45. > :10:53.whole of England. That is extraordinary, no matter how
:10:53. > :10:58.laudable Stephen Curran has done, it is a million miles away. The London
:10:58. > :11:02.Challenge was about networking skills. That was the key to it.
:11:02. > :11:08.Schools that were struggling but connected with schools that have
:11:08. > :11:13.similar areas... I just want to bring Alex Massie in. I want to come
:11:13. > :11:19.to this first point about the 99% figure. Alex, I suspect you want to
:11:19. > :11:23.praise what Glasgow have done. I just wonder what the key to some of
:11:23. > :11:26.this London stuff is. This idea of children coming from deprived areas,
:11:26. > :11:30.and you have got to make allowances and build relationships and all the
:11:30. > :11:35.rest of it, one of the things that seems pretty key to these schemes is
:11:35. > :11:38.that they do not do that. They have expectations of students from the
:11:38. > :11:45.most deprived areas which are the same as the expectations of students
:11:45. > :11:50.from middle-class areas. Exactly. That is the key point. It is the
:11:50. > :11:54.case not just in London, but in Detroit, in the south side of
:11:54. > :11:57.Chicago, in other disadvantaged areas. The very worst thing that you
:11:57. > :12:03.can do for children from disadvantaged backgrounds, and we
:12:03. > :12:09.know the challenges that these children space, is make excuses for
:12:09. > :12:14.them -- children face. It is that sort of thing that rates them off
:12:14. > :12:17.before they have even made it to school. It is that sort of thing
:12:17. > :12:22.that is so dispiriting. It is the sort of thing that should actually
:12:23. > :12:27.be a matter of anger, it should induce anger, and one of the scary
:12:27. > :12:37.things about education politics is how little anger it produces. If as
:12:37. > :12:41.
:12:41. > :12:44.many people failed in treatment of the elderly or in the NHS, it would
:12:44. > :12:46.be considered a scandal. Far too many children have their lives John
:12:47. > :12:49.this add to the NHS, it would be considered a scandal. Far too many
:12:49. > :12:51.children have their lives jaundice at two earlier stage. What Glasgow
:12:51. > :12:56.it must begin before children get to school. You are absolutely right. It
:12:56. > :13:02.is a culture of low expectations. Stephen Curran, the thing that
:13:02. > :13:06.strikes me, we talked about networking. The London Challenge was
:13:06. > :13:13.not just a nice idea. It was a very specific thing that you do not seem
:13:13. > :13:17.to have. For example, pitting people who were in a unit at the Department
:13:17. > :13:21.Of Education into schools that were failing to help turn them around,
:13:21. > :13:25.with the agreement of schools, getting partnership boards, having
:13:25. > :13:29.this idea of mentoring and having teachers spending time away from the
:13:29. > :13:33.schools. This idea that your job was not teaching in your local school,
:13:33. > :13:39.but teaching for the whole of London. But, you do not seem to have
:13:40. > :13:49.any of that. We are doing some of that work. Because of the Curriculum
:13:49. > :13:55.For Excellence, we have a teacher who is a national leader, in
:13:55. > :13:59.languages, who is going great across the country. Some of this is
:13:59. > :14:02.happening already. Alex Massie is right. We are angry about this and
:14:02. > :14:07.we are passionate about lifting expectations at all of the schools.
:14:07. > :14:11.The support network is really important. I come back to this point
:14:11. > :14:15.that there were very specific things done in London, and it is very easy
:14:15. > :14:23.to talk as if you are doing the same thing. You can even convince
:14:23. > :14:28.yourself you are, but in fact, you are not. I think that London,
:14:28. > :14:31.because the education system is different in London, the schools had
:14:31. > :14:35.access to different sorts of data, and that is an important thing to
:14:35. > :14:39.think about. Schools had better quality data about literacy and
:14:39. > :14:43.numeracy than the schools in Scotland have. They also, because of
:14:43. > :14:47.the way education is organised, had access to how schools in
:14:47. > :14:51.neighbouring authorities with similar pupils were doing, whereas
:14:51. > :14:55.in Scotland, a local authority knows how their own schools are doing, but
:14:55. > :14:59.they do not necessarily know how other schools are doing. You are
:14:59. > :15:03.getting too part of the problem here. It is surely a national
:15:03. > :15:07.disgrace that we do not have that information to hand. We are trying
:15:07. > :15:13.to reform... It is a bit like the NHS. You are trying to reform will
:15:13. > :15:22.you do not know how something is performing. You would not want to
:15:22. > :15:26.import all of the English elements. This identifying... Identifying
:15:26. > :15:32.that, moving in, and the whole idea of mentoring and moving teachers in
:15:32. > :15:35.to help you, that is what Glasgow needs to do. I think the thing about
:15:35. > :15:43.the London Challenge that was very distinctive was that when people
:15:43. > :15:48.moved into those schools, the same teacher was still in charge.
:15:48. > :15:54.schools headteacher was still making the decisions. It is an important
:15:54. > :15:58.point as well, you have got to remember, the New Labour Government
:15:58. > :16:04.had gone through before that started. A lot of the worst
:16:04. > :16:10.teachers... They had abolished the LGA and replace it with a private
:16:10. > :16:18.company. There is a real support and challenge around teachers. If they
:16:18. > :16:21.are not performing, gave it -- they get the chance to get professional
:16:21. > :16:26.support. Sometimes they leave the position because young people 's
:16:26. > :16:32.futures are at stake. Alex Massie, what would you like to see Stephen
:16:32. > :16:35.Curran doing? In the sense of structure and governance, there are
:16:35. > :16:39.many different ways to run a successful school system.
:16:39. > :16:43.Personally, I think there is a lot to be said for setting schools free
:16:43. > :16:53.from local authority control. was not part of the London
:16:53. > :17:03.experience. It is sort of...It was before academies. The academies were
:17:03. > :17:03.
:17:03. > :17:09.part of the success... I am sorry, I must correct you. What would you say
:17:09. > :17:13.to Stephen Curran? We need to demand more from all sectors. We also need
:17:13. > :17:18.to demand more from teachers. There are a lot of very good teachers who
:17:18. > :17:20.do a lot of very good work. Teachers want to be treated as a high status,
:17:20. > :17:27.well-paid profession and that is the right thing to do. That means that
:17:27. > :17:34.we must demand more from them. think we will leave this with the