:00:14. > :00:20.message but whether it is a Tonight: Arts drug laws putting
:00:20. > :00:25.lives at risk. Seven people have died in Scotland after taking a
:00:25. > :00:31.fake Ecstasy tablets. Should we regulate drug so it can be done
:00:31. > :00:35.more safely? Could Faslane be the corner of a Scottish field that
:00:35. > :00:41.remains that ever British? Politicians are rushed to deny
:00:41. > :00:43.suggestions that Bass might remain in the UK even if Scotland becomes
:00:43. > :00:47.independent. Good evening. Police are warning festival-goers heading
:00:47. > :00:49.to T in the Park about fake ecstasy tablets which have been linked with
:00:49. > :00:52.the deaths of seven people in Scotland and another ten in
:00:52. > :00:55.Northern Ireland. The pills contain a chemical called PMA, which is
:00:55. > :00:59.more toxic than the usual MDMA. Some argue that if drugs were
:00:59. > :01:09.regulated people would know what they were taking. Is drugs policy
:01:09. > :01:15.
:01:15. > :01:21.Recreational drug use is a common practice. The manufacture and
:01:21. > :01:26.supply of substances like Ecstasy is looked upon as a profitable
:01:26. > :01:29.activity. Its status as a Class A illegal drug means the underground
:01:29. > :01:34.nature of its manufacture means the people using it have no way of
:01:34. > :01:37.knowing what they are taking. The danger has become reality after
:01:37. > :01:42.police linked the deaths of seven young people in the West of
:01:42. > :01:48.Scotland to a fake batch of ecstasy pills. The deaths have been put
:01:48. > :01:54.down to the chemicals used to make the drugs. Ecstasy is properly
:01:54. > :02:01.known as MDMA. That is substituted for a more deadly alternative - PNA.
:02:01. > :02:07.The reason is not entirely clear. The dangers of the drug certainly
:02:07. > :02:13.are. The drug is more toxic than MDMA. The effects take longer to
:02:13. > :02:21.come on. If you have a pill with PMH in it, thinking it is ecstasy,
:02:21. > :02:26.you might take one or two and you might not feel anything. You might
:02:26. > :02:32.think it is weak and take another couple. The drug then kicks in and
:02:32. > :02:35.the toxicity takes over. There are no easy answers when it comes to
:02:35. > :02:41.tackling the problem. Some argue that because people will always
:02:41. > :02:45.want to take drugs like Ecstasy, banning them may not be the answer.
:02:45. > :02:51.The main recreational drug we used in this country is alcohol. A lot
:02:51. > :02:55.of people do not want to use alcohol because it causes so much
:02:55. > :03:02.damage. It is bad for the body bus- stop people use other substances.
:03:02. > :03:08.They choose to use other substances. That has always been the case. To
:03:08. > :03:12.deny the fact it is happening is crazy as a society. We are looking
:03:12. > :03:18.at other countries where they are moving towards liberalisation of
:03:18. > :03:24.some substances, such as cannabis and other things. Several countries
:03:24. > :03:31.including Portugal, Austria and Spain ran drug checking services.
:03:31. > :03:37.What about going further than that? The ingredients, which had
:03:37. > :03:42.tragically killed people, would not have been in a tablet in a bottle
:03:42. > :03:46.being sold in a regulated method. That is because the regulation
:03:46. > :03:52.would have made sure nothing was in no substances which was not safe
:03:53. > :03:57.and which did not do what the label said it should do. Her whether or
:03:57. > :04:02.not the ecstasy is real, police. Had it is all illegal. What we're
:04:02. > :04:08.trying to do is try to give people advice to protect themselves and
:04:08. > :04:14.make sure they know the risks associated with Ecstasy at the
:04:14. > :04:18.moment. The informed decision as far as I can see is not to take the
:04:18. > :04:23.drug. Legislating is a whole other debate. That is about getting a
:04:23. > :04:29.message out to be able to make sure they keep a safe and enjoy
:04:29. > :04:33.themselves at the same time. -- they keep safe. Is the latest
:04:33. > :04:40.deaths have once again highlighted the debate over the risks and
:04:40. > :04:44.benefits of decriminalisation and regulation of controlled drugs like
:04:44. > :04:48.Ecstasy. Law enforcement officials say it is a debate for another day.
:04:48. > :04:50.They just want to make sure people are safe. I'm joined by Mike
:04:50. > :05:00.McCarron from Transform Drug Policy Scotland, and from Edinburgh by the
:05:00. > :05:02.
:05:02. > :05:06.former Chief Constable of Grampian Police, Dr Ian Oliver. Isn't this
:05:06. > :05:10.very particular situation we are in rather an indictment of drugs
:05:10. > :05:15.policy? If we're trying to get the attention of people who might take
:05:15. > :05:20.the drug and so this particular batch is very dangerous, do not go
:05:20. > :05:25.near it, wouldn't it be easier if we were not simultaneously telling
:05:25. > :05:32.people that Cabot Ecstasy would be extremely harmful to them if they
:05:32. > :05:37.took the ordinary stuff? -- Ecstasy. You have to remember that all drugs,
:05:37. > :05:42.including prescribed medicine, over-the-counter purchases, illicit
:05:42. > :05:46.drugs, they are all dangerous. Unless you take them with medical
:05:46. > :05:55.guidance and supervision. Even then, there are side-effects you need to
:05:55. > :06:01.be aware off. To try and say decriminalising of however you want
:06:01. > :06:06.to say it would somehow make things safe there is absolute nonsense.
:06:06. > :06:10.Does the basic message which the thirties put over on drugs, which
:06:10. > :06:16.is that they are all dangers if you take them you could have very
:06:16. > :06:21.serious health problems or even dive. -- the authorities. Thousands
:06:21. > :06:31.of people across Britain do not take that seriously. When I joined
:06:31. > :06:36.the police in 1961, drugs were a rarity. We have had a drug control
:06:36. > :06:41.since 1909 when the availability of drugs in the United Kingdom were 5,
:06:41. > :06:48.6, 10 times worse than they were now and there was widespread
:06:48. > :06:52.dependency. To say jug control has been a failure is nonsense. -- drug
:06:52. > :06:59.control. How much worse would it have been had we not try to control
:06:59. > :07:07.them? When talking about T in The Park and saying, it is this or is
:07:07. > :07:11.it not ecstasy Macro, what difference does that make? --
:07:11. > :07:16.Ecstasy. These people would not have died had they taken the
:07:16. > :07:20.ordinary drug. You are talking completely at odds with the facts.
:07:20. > :07:27.It is not the first time there have been bad drugs on the market. It is
:07:27. > :07:33.not that long ago that drugs were being cut with a cancer drug. This
:07:33. > :07:41.has always been the case. The basic message must be that apart from
:07:41. > :07:45.supply reduction you must educate people for a demand reduction. The
:07:45. > :07:50.fact that people want to take recreational drugs - and there is
:07:50. > :07:57.no such thing. It is not a justification by saying, let's test
:07:57. > :08:07.them, it is ecstasy. You are OK taking that. It is not. It is a
:08:07. > :08:09.
:08:09. > :08:14.I think will testing is not the answer but it is a step forward
:08:15. > :08:23.which does make the use of that bit safer. That is what drug-users save
:08:23. > :08:30.us do it will pick up the lethal components. -- say. There is a risk
:08:30. > :08:35.but it is worth doing. Holland is a very good example. The National
:08:35. > :08:40.Centre for Health and addictions has a laboratory. They deal with
:08:40. > :08:48.hundreds of drug users every week. They test them and let individuals
:08:48. > :08:58.know what is safe Oram said. They put that into a database. -- or
:08:58. > :09:02.I know at Edinburgh in the 1980s had problems of their own. Just
:09:02. > :09:08.because you were given fresh needles to make sure you did not
:09:08. > :09:15.get HIV did not mean the also it is condoned you taking heroin. That is
:09:15. > :09:19.a form of harm reduction which is simply there to save lives. That is
:09:19. > :09:24.why drug testing today would actually help to save lives. It is
:09:24. > :09:29.not the answer. That is why it thinks it is reforming the law,
:09:29. > :09:34.which would be far more effective in keeping people say. As the
:09:34. > :09:38.policeman said, that debate would take more than today. I am not
:09:38. > :09:45.quite sure what your view is on this. You said it would not make
:09:45. > :09:50.any difference. We are talking about a batch of pills passed off
:09:50. > :09:58.as Ecstasy but they are a different substance. It is more dangerous
:09:58. > :10:05.than MDMA. If you had the thousands of people you're saying are using
:10:06. > :10:12.drugs queuing up at T in The Park or wherever else, the number of
:10:12. > :10:17.contaminated drugs, I do not know how many are out there. If people
:10:17. > :10:22.say it is Ecstasy, it is not safe to use it. To really think if you
:10:22. > :10:28.suddenly legalise things and test them and say it is safe and that is
:10:28. > :10:34.not saved, the bad guys will go away just because we have passed
:10:34. > :10:39.regulations. It will not happen. That is a point. Another analogy is
:10:39. > :10:43.cigarettes. Millions of people in Britain ignored the Government
:10:43. > :10:49.advice and warnings on cigarettes. It does not mean the Government is
:10:49. > :10:54.wrong in that it is bad. I think that all the substances are risky.
:10:54. > :10:59.It is a choice that people have made a will continue to make. It is
:10:59. > :11:04.the job of government to make that as safe as possible for the public.
:11:04. > :11:12.The current situation is not serving that purpose. Deaths from
:11:12. > :11:18.drugs generally in Scotland were at their highest ever. Going back to
:11:18. > :11:26.what Ian Oliver said earlier, do you agree the war on drugs has been
:11:26. > :11:31.a success in Scotland? No, I do not. The drugs industry now, over $300
:11:31. > :11:41.billion a year, is now the third- biggest industry after food and oil.
:11:41. > :11:46.It patently is not. Washington, Colorado have voted to legalise
:11:46. > :11:49.cannabis. 25 different countries are experimenting with
:11:50. > :11:55.decriminalisation. Over 50 countries have just commissioned a
:11:55. > :11:59.major review looking at the future in different ways. The UN Secretary
:11:59. > :12:06.General, Ban Ki Moon, has said that the next tee we must look at the
:12:06. > :12:16.drugs policy and look at all options. Do you think there is a
:12:16. > :12:17.
:12:17. > :12:17.The United States spends more on latest technology. To produce a
:12:17. > :12:18.latest technology. To produce a modern professional force. One of
:12:18. > :12:18.modern professional force. One of the does
:12:18. > :12:18.
:12:18. > :12:18.the biggest
:12:18. > :12:18.the biggest on
:12:18. > :12:18.the biggest changes enforcement
:12:18. > :12:18.
:12:18. > :12:18.the biggest changes was
:12:18. > :12:19.the biggest changes was and
:12:19. > :12:19.the biggest changes was and there
:12:19. > :12:19.the biggest changes was on lot
:12:19. > :12:19.the biggest changes was and there is
:12:19. > :12:19.the biggest changes was and there is a
:12:19. > :12:19.modern professional force. One of the biggest changes was on the
:12:19. > :12:20.the biggest changes was on the roads.
:12:20. > :12:20.modern professional force. One of the biggest changes was on lot
:12:20. > :12:20.the biggest changes was on the roads. of
:12:20. > :12:20.roads. The
:12:20. > :12:20.roads. The self
:12:20. > :12:20.roads. The Government
:12:20. > :12:21.roads. The Government appointed
:12:21. > :12:21.roads. The Government appointed bodies
:12:21. > :12:21.the biggest changes was on the roads. The Government sacked
:12:21. > :12:21.roads. The Government sacked like
:12:21. > :12:21.roads. The Government sacked all
:12:22. > :12:22.roads. The Government sacked all the
:12:22. > :12:22.the the
:12:22. > :12:22.the the so-called
:12:22. > :12:22.the Traffic
:12:22. > :12:23.the the so-called global
:12:23. > :12:23.the Traffic Police,
:12:23. > :12:23.the Traffic Police, xhishtion
:12:23. > :12:24.the Traffic Police, 16,000
:12:24. > :12:24.the Traffic Police, xhishtion Global
:12:24. > :12:24.the Traffic Police, 16,000 officers.
:12:24. > :12:24.the Traffic Police, xhishtion Global Commission
:12:24. > :12:24.Commission on
:12:24. > :12:24.Commission on Drug
:12:24. > :12:25.the Traffic Police, 16,000 officers. Policy
:12:25. > :12:25.And
:12:25. > :12:25.Policy that
:12:25. > :12:25.Policy that come
:12:25. > :12:25.And replaced
:12:25. > :12:25.And out
:12:25. > :12:25.And replaced them
:12:25. > :12:25.And replaced with
:12:26. > :12:26.And replaced them false
:12:26. > :12:26.And replaced them false information.
:12:26. > :12:26.And replaced them with
:12:26. > :12:26.And replaced them with They
:12:26. > :12:27.And replaced them with They clearly
:12:27. > :12:27.And replaced them with They clearly haven't
:12:27. > :12:27.the Traffic Police, 16,000 officers. And replaced them with this
:12:27. > :12:27.And replaced them with this US-
:12:27. > :12:27.And replaced them with this US- style
:12:28. > :12:28.style done
:12:28. > :12:28.style done their
:12:28. > :12:28.style done their homework
:12:28. > :12:28.style patrol
:12:28. > :12:28.style patrol force.
:12:28. > :12:29.style patrol force. and
:12:29. > :12:29.style patrol force. and the And replaced them with this US-
:12:29. > :12:29.And replaced them with this US- style patrol force. New are
:12:29. > :12:30.style patrol force. New recruits
:12:30. > :12:30.style patrol force. New recruits were
:12:30. > :12:30.were always
:12:30. > :12:30.were always held
:12:30. > :12:30.were monitored
:12:30. > :12:30.were monitored up
:12:30. > :12:32.were monitored up as
:12:32. > :12:33.were monitored closely to make style patrol force. New recruits
:12:33. > :12:34.were monitored closely to make sure they didn't take are Portugal,
:12:34. > :12:35.were monitored closely to make sure they didn't take any bribes.
:12:35. > :12:39.were monitored closely to make sure they didn't take any bribes. Many
:12:39. > :12:40.people tried to give police Portugal people tried to give police
:12:40. > :12:44.officers money, but from people tried to give police
:12:44. > :12:47.officers money, but from the past many things were changed, nowadays
:12:47. > :12:52.everyone knows that police officers don't take the money. everybody
:12:52. > :12:55.pretends that it is. Do you really think that even supposing a
:12:55. > :12:55.Government said we are going to break with the UN conventions and we
:12:55. > :12:55.everyone knows that police officers break with the UN conventions and we
:12:56. > :12:56.everyone knows that police officers don't take the money. But it
:12:56. > :12:56.everyone knows that police officers don't take the money. But it is to
:12:56. > :12:56.don't take the money. But it is to
:12:56. > :12:56.don't take the money. But it is not
:12:56. > :12:56.
:12:56. > :12:56.don't take the money. But it is not in
:12:56. > :12:56.only the
:12:56. > :12:56.
:12:57. > :12:57.only the
:12:57. > :12:57.only the face
:12:57. > :12:57.only the police
:12:57. > :12:57.only the face of
:12:57. > :12:57.only the police the
:12:57. > :12:58.only the police that
:12:58. > :12:59.only the police that became
:12:59. > :12:59.only the police that became more
:12:59. > :13:00.only the police that became more transparent.
:13:00. > :13:01.transparent. The
:13:01. > :13:01.transparent. The Georgian
:13:01. > :13:03.transparent. The Georgian Government
:13:03. > :13:03.Government opened
:13:03. > :13:03.Government opened giant
:13:03. > :13:03.Government opened giant public
:13:03. > :13:04.Government opened giant public service
:13:04. > :13:06.service palaces.
:13:06. > :13:06.service palaces. Transactions that were once
:13:06. > :13:07.were once under
:13:07. > :13:07.were once under the
:13:07. > :13:17.were once under the table
:13:17. > :13:22.
:13:22. > :13:27.were once under the table were now Someone in the MoD is considering
:13:27. > :13:34.keeping a little bit of Scotland for the union after independence. That
:13:34. > :13:38.small plot is the Faslane nahhal base.
:13:38. > :13:44.As you can imagine, this bit of flight flying went down badly with
:13:44. > :13:46.the SNP. They barely got their indignation up to full splutter
:13:46. > :13:51.before Westminster politicians rushed to disassociate themselves
:13:51. > :13:57.from the idea. Can we have a debate on the dangers
:13:57. > :14:04.and evils of it. The Westminster Government and the
:14:04. > :14:08.front page of the Guardian bullying Scotland. Free peoples across the
:14:08. > :14:13.world will condemn this and stand with Scotland in the name of
:14:13. > :14:17.freedom. Since his question is occasioned by
:14:17. > :14:22.the front page of the Guardian today, I hope he will be pleased to
:14:22. > :14:32.hear the Government has commissioned, has not commissioned
:14:32. > :14:36.
:14:36. > :14:46.contingency plans over Faslane. how well has this gone down on the
:14:46. > :14:50.
:14:50. > :14:53.day Alistair Darling made his speech? I'm joined in the studio by
:14:53. > :14:56.Lyndsey McIntosh of The Times and from Westminster by David Maddox of
:14:56. > :14:59.the Scotsman. What's going on? have rarely seen the British
:14:59. > :15:05.Government torpedo an idea as quickly as this one this morning.
:15:05. > :15:13.You choose your cliches carefully? Yes and deliberately in this case.
:15:13. > :15:20.The MoD have been floating this idea for sometime. I remember Peter Luff
:15:20. > :15:24.hinting it sometime ago when he was a Defence Minister. I don't think
:15:24. > :15:28.any of the higher echelons have taken it that seriously. The MoD,
:15:28. > :15:33.despite what they have been telling us, about not making contingency
:15:34. > :15:39.plans, have been looking at various contingency plans. What is
:15:39. > :15:45.interesting is the speed with which they reacted this morning to
:15:45. > :15:51.basically stop this story or to deny this story. I believe it was brought
:15:51. > :15:55.on by Better Together telephoning Downing Street last night direct to
:15:55. > :16:00.say "please deny this because this is going to cause us all sorts of
:16:00. > :16:02.damage. " The implication of that is whoever has been talking about this
:16:02. > :16:12.to the Guardian was probably a bureaucrat rather than a politician
:16:12. > :16:17.because it is a difficulty to see what any politician's interest would
:16:17. > :16:22.be in coming out with? Some politicians aren't in the loop.
:16:22. > :16:26.There is an understanding about the sort of positive message, kind of
:16:27. > :16:31.softly, softly, nice message, but they want to put out there, but a
:16:31. > :16:35.great deal of them aren't in the loop on this. Right. OK, what did
:16:35. > :16:39.you make of it? What was your reaction, presumably the
:16:39. > :16:43.nationalists couldn't believe their luck? They couldn't, but the UK
:16:43. > :16:48.Government response was more damning than the SNP's response as David
:16:48. > :16:52.says, they came out shut it down so they pretty much killed off the
:16:52. > :16:56.story, but also they gave us an insight into what they are thinking
:16:56. > :17:03.post independence which they have been loathe to do so far. So
:17:03. > :17:05.actually anything the SNP said on this after that almost was not
:17:05. > :17:10.irrelevant obviously, but lost any impact.
:17:10. > :17:16.Yes, all right. The other side of this David, it is a reasonable idea,
:17:17. > :17:20.isn't it? Well, I mean, it is not an unreasonable idea in the sense that
:17:20. > :17:29.certainly this has to be the short-term option or the short to
:17:29. > :17:32.medium-term option in the sense that everybody now seems to agree if the
:17:32. > :17:37.vote is independence, it will take a lot longer to sort out the nuclear
:17:37. > :17:43.base. Sort to medium-term option it is clearly got to happen because you
:17:43. > :17:49.know, whether they find alternative bases in some other part of the UK
:17:49. > :17:52.like Milford Haven or somewhere, but so, yeah, it is not unreasonable in
:17:52. > :18:01.that sense, but in terms of the long-term option, you know, you
:18:01. > :18:05.know, it sounds like rank colonialism. I think the SNP will be
:18:05. > :18:10.bringing this up time and again now. All right. Now, of course, the
:18:10. > :18:15.timing of this, if you were Alistair Darling... You wouldn't be happy.
:18:15. > :18:19.No. He made his ground breaking speech today which I'm sure everyone
:18:19. > :18:24.was riveted by, but just in case they weren't, you can tell us
:18:24. > :18:28.whether you thought he said anything new or interesting? I think if you
:18:28. > :18:32.listen to to the whole speech and read the whole content of it, it
:18:32. > :18:37.does mark a change in tone that that which was employed beforement there
:18:37. > :18:42.are similar arguments. Things like we wouldn't have the soft power of
:18:42. > :18:47.the UK as an independent country. But rather than saying we won't have
:18:47. > :18:55.it, what he said today is "look how great it is that we have it at the
:18:55. > :19:00.moment. " They are shifting.They have to. Why do they have to? The
:19:00. > :19:10.polls would suggest doing what they are doing is working for them?
:19:10. > :19:10.
:19:10. > :19:13.we seen a poll recently? Do you think the Better Together people
:19:13. > :19:18.they have looked at their own polling and they are starting to
:19:18. > :19:24.suffer because of this? I have no idea what their internal polling is,
:19:24. > :19:34.but there has been a shift since the Scotland analysis paper came out
:19:34. > :19:38.
:19:38. > :19:44.with the more scaremongering suggestions. Do you agree with that?
:19:44. > :19:49.In speaking to the chancellor in the last couple of days and he is
:19:49. > :19:53.confident about how things are going. He seems, the Chancellor
:19:53. > :20:00.still chairs the Cabinet Committee on Scotland and the referendum. And
:20:00. > :20:04.he seems to be surprised that -- at how successful it was.
:20:04. > :20:07.You need to tell us more about what George Osborne thinks some other
:20:07. > :20:14.time because we have run out of time.
:20:14. > :20:21.A look at tomorrow's front papers. Security firms probed over offender
:20:21. > :20:28.tagging. Osborne, "I won't raise taxes if the Conservatives win the
:20:28. > :20:37.next election." And the Scottish Daily Mail, "couple set for pay outs