:00:12. > :00:15.beatings. And the dead will still be debate on what an independent
:00:15. > :00:24.Scotland might be like finally gets radical with a bold plan for a more
:00:24. > :00:27.Good evening. A high wage, high skill, high tax economy. A full,
:00:27. > :00:31.cradle-to-grave universal welfare system. And more parts of the
:00:31. > :00:33.economy in public ownership. Those are bones of what the Jimmy Reid
:00:33. > :00:37.Foundation is proposing for an independent Scotland in its Common
:00:37. > :00:42.Weal paper. It seems a long way from the SNP's softly-softly approach
:00:42. > :00:45.with its emphasis of what will stay the same. Yet the government has
:00:45. > :00:50.welcomed the paper and even invited its authors to make a presentation
:00:51. > :01:00.to MSPs at an SNP away-day next month. So is this the vision that
:01:00. > :01:04.could persuade voters to back independence? Andrew Black reports.
:01:04. > :01:07.Imagine a Scotland which has grown to be wealthier and fairer, with an
:01:08. > :01:17.expanded economy and a radical new approach to delivering public
:01:18. > :01:27.
:01:27. > :01:31.services. Is it pie in the sky? Or Trade union activist Jimmy Reid
:01:31. > :01:36.spent much of his life fighting for equality and now the think tank
:01:36. > :01:41.bearing his name has been seeking to bring a new Di mentioned to the
:01:41. > :01:47.debate on Scotland 's future. -- dimension. The foundation 's project
:01:47. > :01:53.starts with the premise that 30 years of conflict and competition in
:01:53. > :01:57.UK public policy has driven a wage through society. So, good places
:01:57. > :02:03.like Norway serve as the starting point for change? The country 's
:02:03. > :02:07.higher wage, high attacks economy drives down inequality while
:02:07. > :02:14.delivering high-quality services. Is that kind of model really achievable
:02:14. > :02:17.here? This is definitely not an ides that micro-utopian ideal. It is a
:02:17. > :02:23.practical method of seeing how we can have a better society. -- this
:02:23. > :02:28.is definitely not a utopian ideal. Politicians have not had the
:02:28. > :02:34.political will. The resisting forces have been too strong. This is a
:02:34. > :02:38.challenge to say we are going to lay out some blueprints, do some
:02:38. > :02:46.investigations and research to show the steps required to get towards a
:02:46. > :02:50.society that we will call the commonweal.
:02:50. > :02:54.You will hear that phrase used a lot in political life. In fact, the
:02:54. > :02:58.Scottish government already has its own version. We have made a
:02:58. > :03:02.conscious decision to provide certain core, universal services,
:03:02. > :03:06.rights and benefits, some of which are no longer prioritised by leaders
:03:06. > :03:10.elsewhere, such as free university tuition, free prescriptions, free
:03:10. > :03:15.personal care for the elderly, and a guarantee of no compulsory
:03:15. > :03:19.redundancies across the public that. We do this because we believe
:03:19. > :03:25.that such services benefit the commonweal of Scotland.
:03:25. > :03:29.The SNP will debate the foundation 's paper at its next conference. How
:03:29. > :03:34.likely is it the party would back tax rises as a way to a fairer
:03:34. > :03:37.economy? It is not about being the same as any other country, whether
:03:37. > :03:41.it be Ireland, Finland or Switzerland. It is about the
:03:41. > :03:45.possibilities that independence brings. We can choose a future that
:03:46. > :03:49.has the best bits of other countries. We can invest in our
:03:49. > :03:52.young people, protect our old people, make sure people who are
:03:52. > :03:59.disabled and people who are living in poverty have a proper and
:03:59. > :04:02.confident and successful future. As the independence referendum
:04:02. > :04:09.approaches, the political parties are working on their own offer for
:04:09. > :04:14.the future. That includes making Scotland more Nordic... Or is that
:04:14. > :04:18.beyond the nation 's rasp? -- grasp?
:04:18. > :04:21.I'm joined now by the director of the Jimmy Reid Foundation, Robin
:04:21. > :04:23.McAlpine, by Ross Martin of the Centre for Scottish Public Policy,
:04:23. > :04:26.and from Edinburgh by David Torrance, author of several
:04:26. > :04:32.political books including a biography of Alex Salmond and an
:04:32. > :04:36.examination of Thatcherism in Scotland.
:04:36. > :04:41.Picking up on something Stewart Maxwell was saying, in an
:04:41. > :04:46.independent Scotland we could pick the best of what we wanted - I am
:04:46. > :04:52.not sure that is what you mean in your idea. It is more a package,
:04:52. > :04:57.isn't it? We have done a package of the best ideas and approaches we can
:04:57. > :05:00.find in a number of companies, -- countries, particularly Europe. We
:05:00. > :05:07.are trying to say committee can generate the right kind of economy
:05:07. > :05:13.and the right kind of jobs and wages, then the public services sort
:05:13. > :05:17.themselves out. There are lots of different models. We're not saying
:05:17. > :05:22.there is one blueprint. The basic structure of this is we have to get
:05:22. > :05:32.a Labour market creating good jobs, not just any jobs. We can't keep
:05:32. > :05:36.going with low paid jobs where people don't pay taxes. It's a
:05:36. > :05:41.general approach and a model for doing this. We are developing a
:05:41. > :05:46.number of different ways. Right. What do you make of this?
:05:47. > :05:53.It is important to recognise that we need more policy debate in Scotland,
:05:54. > :05:57.not less. Even some commentators who would consider themselves to be
:05:57. > :06:03.right of centre have said, look, this is great. This is more
:06:03. > :06:06.interesting than the usual nonsense we have two debate every day.
:06:07. > :06:11.need to have debate across the spectrum. It is great to see the
:06:11. > :06:15.foundation coming in at their particular part of the spectrum. We
:06:16. > :06:20.operate across the whole spectrum. We need to fear in some of the
:06:20. > :06:23.detail in those aspects on the left or right. It is great to get the
:06:23. > :06:32.debate going, particularly as we going to mid-September.
:06:32. > :06:37.The big hard sell... Robin McAlpine is upfront about admitting that his
:06:37. > :06:45.policies would need higher taxes. That's a hard sell, isn't it?
:06:45. > :06:49.is. But there are examples of the Scottish public voting for higher
:06:49. > :06:58.tax on occasion. If you think back to the original referendum and the
:06:58. > :07:05.second question, it was varying tax up or down. There was a possibility
:07:05. > :07:08.and people voted for the possibility. Businesses are being
:07:08. > :07:12.asked to contribute more to the common good in terms of the business
:07:12. > :07:17.environment. There are a number of other occasions where people, if
:07:17. > :07:20.they see the benefit of changing the level of taxation or changing the
:07:20. > :07:28.contribution they make to public services, say, they are willing to
:07:28. > :07:37.consider that. Are we to live in assuming people
:07:37. > :07:43.will not vote for some sort of system meaning higher taxes? It is
:07:43. > :07:46.unlikely. I'm struck by the examples Ross came up with. They are not
:07:46. > :07:51.terribly convincing. The best example we had in recent years was
:07:51. > :07:54.the first election to the Scottish Parliament in 1999, when the SNP
:07:55. > :08:00.campaign done precisely that, if the penny for Scotland. They said they
:08:00. > :08:06.would rise the variable rate by 1p and plough it into front-line public
:08:06. > :08:08.services. The SNP did not win the election. It is going too far to
:08:08. > :08:12.argue that they didn't win the election because they said they
:08:12. > :08:17.would put up tax. Never the less, it is now seared in the collective
:08:17. > :08:27.consciousness, particularly Alex Salmond 's wrote, that going into
:08:27. > :08:34.any election alleging taxes is political suicide. People are just
:08:34. > :08:40.saying no. Firstly, this myth about tax being popular cannot be
:08:40. > :08:44.sustained by evidence. The SNP did not win the first election. At the
:08:44. > :08:49.next one, they did worse. If the penny for Scotland was the problem,
:08:49. > :08:54.what happened when they dropped it? More to the point, what we're
:08:54. > :09:02.talking about here isn't just raising tax rates. We have a Labour
:09:02. > :09:07.market in Scotland where people are on �35,000 salaries, where they can
:09:07. > :09:15.pay taxes and lead secure lives. Only one in five working Scots is in
:09:15. > :09:19.that category. Three out of five live on under 25,000 per year. If we
:09:19. > :09:25.had proper wages, people could pay proper tax. You talk about an
:09:25. > :09:30.economy based on something you compare to Germany, a huge swathes
:09:30. > :09:36.of smallish to medium-sized industries that are the backbone of
:09:36. > :09:41.the economy. What I not clear on is if you have any ideas about how you
:09:41. > :09:46.get there from where we are now. This is a historical tradition in
:09:46. > :09:51.Germany. It is difficult to say, oh, we will do that. It is not going to
:09:51. > :09:58.happen overnight. But it's not clear you had any proposals how you would
:09:59. > :10:03.get to there. We have a major paper coming out on this. The people of
:10:03. > :10:10.Scotland have largely not done well out of the last 20 years. The same
:10:10. > :10:18.is true of the Scottish indigenous business base. Supermarkets, large
:10:18. > :10:21.chains, that pay low wages, that means people have low pay. The big
:10:21. > :10:27.scandal on corporation tax is why Scottish companies pay a higher
:10:27. > :10:37.rate. If we load the dice for our companies, we can do that.
:10:37. > :10:39.
:10:39. > :10:44.We are not taking, we are having a paper coming out, as an excuse! I am
:10:44. > :10:47.sure that David Torrance and others would welcome the fact that we have
:10:47. > :10:52.a strong manufacturing economy based on small and medium-sized
:10:52. > :10:56.enterprises. It is getting there that is the problem. It is not a
:10:57. > :11:01.polar issue, black and white. You cannot take a blanket view across
:11:01. > :11:11.the economy, across the whole of public opinion. There needs to be a
:11:11. > :11:14.much more nuanced debate about what works and what does not. There needs
:11:14. > :11:16.to be more of a mixed bag across the economy. If more co-operatives, for
:11:16. > :11:19.example, which is one of the aspects of the Jimmy Reid Foundation
:11:19. > :11:23.proposals, if they are a way of slimming down the public sector in
:11:23. > :11:32.Scotland, then let's talk about that. If more social enterprise is a
:11:32. > :11:34.way of slimming down the public sector, let's talk about that.
:11:34. > :11:37.the flip side of the proposal is an economy based on consumerism. You
:11:37. > :11:41.specifically say there should be fewer retail outlets and so on and
:11:41. > :11:49.people will not buy that either. Trying to force the issue in that
:11:49. > :11:56.way is why it wonders and where we depart from each other. -- where it
:11:57. > :11:59.wonders. If you want to have an entire economy based on small
:11:59. > :12:04.enterprises and not consumerism, there are tax changes you would have
:12:04. > :12:09.to make. The most obvious one would be imposing capital gains tax on
:12:09. > :12:13.house price sales, because that is the one-way I can think of that you
:12:14. > :12:19.would have a huge shift away from the economy we have had in the past.
:12:19. > :12:23.Would it be acceptable to people? is difficult to say if it would be
:12:23. > :12:28.acceptable any time soon. A lots of what is in the commonweal proposal
:12:28. > :12:33.is admirable and intellectually honest, because it acknowledges that
:12:33. > :12:37.we need higher taxes. That is acknowledged in everything the SNP
:12:37. > :12:43.and Labour say and beyond that. It is very important but as you say,
:12:43. > :12:48.the practicality of it is something altogether different. Any tax
:12:48. > :12:53.changes, any major revision of the tax system, however intellectually
:12:53. > :12:56.justified, is a huge undertaking. I just don't think the political
:12:57. > :13:01.appetite is there and specifically identikit is there in the SNP. I
:13:01. > :13:06.hate to be cynical but I suspect what they will be will be to discuss
:13:06. > :13:11.this at the awayday, the awayday, debated at conference, subscribe to
:13:11. > :13:19.the general concept, but they will not bite the bullet on tax, which is
:13:19. > :13:25.where the whole thing flounders. difficulty is that we have a need
:13:25. > :13:30.for yes camp to articulate a proper vision for Scotland and to paint
:13:30. > :13:35.some of the key characteristics of what Scotland might look like. But
:13:35. > :13:38.the problem for both campaigns is saving something for the 2016
:13:38. > :13:41.Scottish election. It is that differentiation between the
:13:41. > :13:46.referendum on the one hand and the election on the other. It is that
:13:46. > :13:50.period when we will see the meat coming out and people being a bit
:13:50. > :13:57.more brave. Because they have to, because the public expenditure
:13:57. > :14:02.profile will be at its very worst. am curious about what your
:14:03. > :14:06.expectations and hopes are. I am utterly confident that this reflects
:14:06. > :14:11.the democratic will of Scotland. I have no doubt that strong public
:14:11. > :14:15.services and better jobs and better pay reflect what people want. We
:14:15. > :14:21.live in a low pay a economy and people are not happy. The political
:14:21. > :14:25.party that put this together in a coherent and sensible way is going
:14:25. > :14:30.to sweep a lot of support behind it. It is a matter of time. We can't
:14:30. > :14:33.keep going on like this, with a failing Lope economy, on the basis
:14:33. > :14:37.that investment jobs will happen which do not put real investment
:14:37. > :14:43.into the Scottish economy. It is going to change. It can't go on like
:14:43. > :14:53.this. From my readings of what has been happening, there is a strong
:14:53. > :14:53.
:14:53. > :14:55.demand for something better than this at grass roots and above. I
:14:55. > :14:58.would not rubbish our chances of getting a rapid take-up on this
:14:58. > :15:01.quite quickly. The other point to make in this document, arguably you
:15:01. > :15:08.have missed what is actually happening in Scandinavia at the
:15:08. > :15:13.moment. The big debate is not in fact how to expand public services.
:15:14. > :15:16.All of the parties there have realised that without radical change
:15:16. > :15:25.the welfare and social insurance system that they have built up
:15:25. > :15:28.cannot go on. In fact there have been enormous changes in
:15:28. > :15:34.Scandinavia, more radical than anything proposed by Iain Duncan
:15:34. > :15:38.Smith. They have used that social consensus to do something you don't
:15:38. > :15:43.talk about in your document at all, which is radical reform of the
:15:43. > :15:50.public services. In Sweden and Denmark, for example, the idea of
:15:50. > :15:55.giving to private companies sections of public services to run, still
:15:55. > :15:59.free at the point of use, has gone further than even in the USA.
:15:59. > :16:05.has been a sharp swing to the right in Nordic countries over the last
:16:05. > :16:09.ten years, no doubt. It has gone that way but from a high base. They
:16:09. > :16:12.have strong public services. And one thing that is the case, left or
:16:12. > :16:22.right of the spectrum in Nordic countries, they do not want to go to
:16:22. > :16:24.
:16:24. > :16:29.a Lope economy. -- low pay economy. But you have this system of social
:16:29. > :16:32.consensus and what they can do with that because it is there is do these
:16:33. > :16:35.radical reforms. If you propose radical reforms in the NHS in
:16:35. > :16:40.Britain for example, you are immediately accused of dismantling
:16:40. > :16:45.it and there is a huge fight. But there are vast swathes of hospitals
:16:45. > :16:48.in Sweden run by the private sector on behalf of the public sector. In
:16:49. > :16:58.Denmark, just to talk about the scale of this, you get vouchers from
:16:58. > :17:01.the state to send your children to private school. You can top them up
:17:01. > :17:07.with your own money. Labour laws in Denmark are freer than here. It is
:17:07. > :17:10.easier to fire someone in Denmark than it is in the USA. There are
:17:10. > :17:15.structural differences with those comparisons. In Denmark, for
:17:15. > :17:21.example, 85% of the national budget is devolved at local level. That
:17:21. > :17:25.would mean that in Scotland, the cities would take on much more
:17:25. > :17:29.responsibility. The other side of it is that you can fire people more
:17:30. > :17:33.easily than in America, but the flip side is the Robin McAlpine point,
:17:33. > :17:39.the state takes care of you if you are fired and helps you get another
:17:39. > :17:49.job. Absolutely. The way that you procure and 11 public services can
:17:49. > :17:50.
:17:50. > :17:54.be changed in Scotland. -- prick your public services. It needs a
:17:54. > :17:58.willingness to drive innovation through the system and turn upside
:17:58. > :18:03.down the current arrangement where local authorities provide everything
:18:03. > :18:09.through schools and schools are the delivery arms for local authorities.
:18:09. > :18:15.Local authorities need to turn that around and be the mechanism for more
:18:15. > :18:20.autonomous organisation. Is there a sense in which what Ross Martin says
:18:20. > :18:26.may or may not be true, but it misses the debate of what is going
:18:26. > :18:29.on in Scandinavia? We are proposing an idealised Scandinavia which last
:18:29. > :18:35.existed in 1975. Most of the Scandinavian countries then went
:18:35. > :18:41.into severe crisis. The royal we collectively tends to fetishise
:18:41. > :18:44.certain Scandinavian countries. That is a fair point. They achieved
:18:44. > :18:50.significant and lasting things in the post-war era, but then so did
:18:50. > :18:54.the UK once upon a time. I get frustrated that we have this cherry
:18:54. > :19:00.picking approach. We can take the best from different countries, be
:19:00. > :19:03.like Norway, be like Australia, according to Alex Salmond. Surely
:19:03. > :19:07.independence is doing something distinctly Scottish whatever that
:19:07. > :19:10.means. But this comes down to the eternal optimism of the Scottish
:19:10. > :19:15.left in assuming that these things will happen and assuming public
:19:15. > :19:21.support with little evidence that that is the case. Thank you very
:19:21. > :19:23.much. Quick look at the front pages. A picture of my colleague Sally
:19:23. > :19:31.showing her frustration with technical problems that we had
:19:31. > :19:36.earlier. And David Cameron turning up the heat on the men only row. And
:19:36. > :19:43.the Times, BBC chiefs broke rules over golden handshakes. The scandal
:19:43. > :19:46.of how inflated payoffs were fixed. The Guardian. May warned over police
:19:47. > :19:55.cuts. This is police forces in England. And the Daily Telegraph,