:00:20. > :00:30.we for St more BBC Scotland attained confirmation on the day that his
:00:30. > :00:32.
:00:32. > :00:38.six-hour set as Archbishop of Edinburgh was announced. This report
:00:38. > :00:43.contains some flash photography from the start. As you can see, I have
:00:43. > :00:53.brought my homework with me. Does this man have a road map to revive
:00:53. > :00:53.
:00:53. > :01:02.the catholic church in Scotland? His name is Leo casually. -- Leo
:01:02. > :01:06.Cushley. He is seen to be Archbishop on Saint Andrews and Edinburgh. I
:01:06. > :01:10.was very surprised and even shock. Although this has been talked about
:01:10. > :01:16.in Scotland for a number of months I was still quite some rise to known
:01:16. > :01:21.that they were releasing me from the diplomatic service to come here as
:01:21. > :01:26.the Archbishop of St Andrews and Edinburgh. It was, I must say, a bit
:01:26. > :01:33.of a shock, because I have been training for something else for the
:01:33. > :01:37.last 20 years. He comes to lead the flock still scandalised and shamed
:01:37. > :01:47.by the revelations around the personal life of the man he
:01:47. > :01:48.
:01:48. > :01:52.succeeds. The other half of the paper is adopted lying and that is
:01:52. > :02:02.where you write in the name of the cardinal who you think will be Pope.
:02:02. > :02:08.
:02:08. > :02:17.In February, Pete O'Brien's world fell apart. He first denied and then
:02:17. > :02:22.agreed... It was further... Where are we now discovering the full
:02:22. > :02:27.circumstance of the cardinals read -- resignation and the nature of the
:02:27. > :02:32.behaviour that led to it? Pope Francis has yet to order an
:02:32. > :02:35.investigation. Catherine Deveney was the journalist who broke the story.
:02:36. > :02:39.I know that the Catholic Church are continuing to cover up because of
:02:39. > :02:42.the stories that have come forward to me and until they stop trying to
:02:42. > :02:49.cover up the wrong thing and do the right thing, the Catholic Church
:02:49. > :02:54.will never move forward. Monsignor Leo Cushley says he is ready to
:02:54. > :03:02.investigate if that's to do so by the Pope. I intend to work very hard
:03:02. > :03:07.to make sure that we get this business sorted out. Monsignor Leo
:03:07. > :03:12.Cushley and his brother bishops have many challenges ahead, including
:03:12. > :03:15.falling congregations and an ageing priesthood, but closing the door on
:03:15. > :03:24.the cardinal O'Brien scandal will surely be among the top priorities
:03:24. > :03:29.both for the Vatican and the Scottish hierarchy. High end joined
:03:29. > :03:33.by Catherine Devaney who broke the story. John Haldane is Professor of
:03:33. > :03:40.moral philosophy at Saint Andrew 's University and adviser to the
:03:40. > :03:44.Vatican, and Stephen McGinty is the biographer of Cardinal Winning. You
:03:44. > :03:50.were hoping and you had been assured, or the people you were
:03:50. > :03:53.talking to borrow short, they would be an enquiry. That is absolutely
:03:53. > :04:00.right and what is sad about this is it there's another example of the
:04:00. > :04:03.Catholic Church doing one thing and saying another. An apostolic
:04:03. > :04:09.visitation was promised to one of the complainants against Cardinal
:04:09. > :04:16.Keith O'Brien. When somebody has already been heard by the church, to
:04:16. > :04:22.bring them to a Private meeting and promised them an apostolic
:04:22. > :04:27.visitation and then back out of it is bad behaviour in anybody's book.
:04:27. > :04:32.Was it not always the case that the investigation was always going to be
:04:32. > :04:38.this apostolic visitation, as they call it, and that it was always
:04:38. > :04:42.gained be left up to whoever was appointed to replace Keith O'Brien?
:04:42. > :04:47.No, in fact there was a great jeweller pressure put on for many
:04:47. > :04:53.months to ask for an investigation. The complainants had been asking for
:04:53. > :04:57.some action to be taken. At the meeting with the papal Nuncio, one
:04:57. > :05:07.of the complainants, the papal muncher said to him, you realise
:05:07. > :05:08.
:05:08. > :05:13.that some people say you are lying. He said, I know Archbishop. That is
:05:13. > :05:18.exactly why we need an investigation. He said we need an
:05:18. > :05:23.investigation for the truth to come out. But it was the papal Nuncio
:05:23. > :05:28.that used the term apostolic visitation. That is investigation
:05:28. > :05:35.where a representative of the Pope is sent to investigate an issue or
:05:35. > :05:38.dioceses. What would be a bit ridiculous about this situation is
:05:38. > :05:44.if the person investigating St Andrews and Edinburgh is the person
:05:44. > :05:48.who is the new Archbishop. An apostolic visitation bring summary
:05:48. > :05:53.from the outside in to look at event. Stephen McGinty, what you
:05:53. > :05:57.make of this? Were you expecting something more radical? No, my
:05:57. > :06:03.feeling is that in a perfect world the ship he and investigation, we
:06:03. > :06:09.should get to the bottom of how the cardinal has behaved as last 20
:06:09. > :06:18.years. It will be of great benefit to the Catholics of Scotland and
:06:18. > :06:21.also the people of Scotland, if the actual facts came out. Now,
:06:21. > :06:25.Catherine has done a good job in bringing this story to light. I
:06:25. > :06:31.think we would also benefit from dying chronologically when did this
:06:31. > :06:37.begin, who did it involve, what happened and for how long. The thing
:06:37. > :06:44.is, it is not really how the Catholic Church usually handled
:06:44. > :06:52.these matters. My feeling from the beginning was that they would not be
:06:52. > :06:58.a formal investigation, as we understand it. John Haldane, surely
:06:58. > :07:01.it is not just a matter of the procedures of the Catholic Church?
:07:01. > :07:06.The impression one, that they were trying to put out a message that
:07:06. > :07:13.they were changing. To then do nothing, if that is indeed what they
:07:13. > :07:17.are going to do, could provoke a crisis for them. There are a number
:07:17. > :07:24.of things in what has been said so far. I do not see the force of
:07:24. > :07:30.this, we want this, we want this and so one. This is a crisis inflicted
:07:30. > :07:33.on an institution, the Scottish Catholic Church, in particular. It
:07:33. > :07:43.has a problem announcer has to address that Rob Lunn. It is true
:07:43. > :07:43.
:07:43. > :07:46.that Rome has an interest in this. At an early stage, I raised the
:07:46. > :07:50.possibility of an apostolic visitation. As Catherine says quite
:07:50. > :07:58.rightly, that would be where somebody is sent in as a
:07:58. > :08:01.representative of somebody from an English-speaking country. I thought
:08:01. > :08:07.it was unlikely that would happen and it became pretty clear that that
:08:07. > :08:12.was not going to happen. I don't think that is necessarily the wrong
:08:12. > :08:17.decision. There does seem to be some confusion with the idea that it
:08:17. > :08:26.would now fault of the person who has been appointed, or nominated as
:08:26. > :08:31.Archbishop of Saint Anne Bruce and Edinburgh, to conduct that apostolic
:08:31. > :08:36.visitation. That is the confusion. It would not be done by a domestic
:08:36. > :08:41.officer, as it were, of the Church in that respect. I do not believe
:08:41. > :08:48.there is going to be an apostolic visitation. It would not be in the
:08:48. > :08:52.gift of that Nuncio to recommend such. My understanding of this is
:08:52. > :08:59.that it derives from a single conversation between one of the
:08:59. > :09:03.accusers and the Nuncio, not the other group. There is a difference
:09:03. > :09:07.of view between the original accusers in this area. But there's
:09:07. > :09:16.not going to be an apostolic visitation. What there is is a clear
:09:16. > :09:21.need for the nominated appointees to look at the circumstances of this. I
:09:21. > :09:26.think this is a very delicate matter because there are a lot of confused
:09:26. > :09:36.and wounded people. I think your work slowly and try to engage these
:09:36. > :09:37.
:09:37. > :09:42.matters. The fact that Leo Cushley said today he had little knowledge
:09:42. > :09:45.of Keith O'Brien's situation other than what he had read in the
:09:45. > :09:50.newspapers, and that he had not discussed the matter with the Pope,
:09:50. > :09:56.does not give the impression that this is gained be a major priority.
:09:56. > :10:01.The right-hander is not appear to know what the left hand is doing. If
:10:01. > :10:08.we are saying that was never going to be an apostolic visitation, why
:10:08. > :10:13.did the Nuncio say that they would be? It is another example of saying
:10:13. > :10:17.one thing and doing another. What we are really asking for is a bit of
:10:17. > :10:27.transparency and a bit of openness. People are talked about forgiveness
:10:27. > :10:29.
:10:29. > :10:33.and moving on. What is your response to John Haldane's pond, who is we?
:10:33. > :10:42.think we represent the majority of thinking, questioning Catholics in
:10:42. > :10:45.this country. The Catholic Church is very quick to scrutinise other
:10:45. > :10:50.people within society and it is not except screech me back. That does
:10:50. > :10:55.not really wash in modern society so I think we all have a right to
:10:55. > :11:00.question when we're talking about issues of abuse. And we're talking
:11:00. > :11:04.about issues of corruption as well. It is not good enough for the
:11:04. > :11:11.Catholic Church to say go away and mind your own business. What do you
:11:11. > :11:18.think they should do? I think Leo Cushley is a talented diplomat, he
:11:18. > :11:25.has worked in some difficult areas. I think the best way to do it would
:11:25. > :11:32.be... But we are not facing a legal situation, it is more of a public
:11:32. > :11:37.relations situation. I think using a dilemma. When he continues to speak
:11:37. > :11:42.to the individuals involved and find out how much information they want
:11:42. > :11:46.released publicly. They have to wait to frame some kind of report and
:11:46. > :11:53.explain to the people of Scotland what has happened under Cardinal
:11:53. > :11:57.Keith O'Brien's rule. Can I quote something that you said in one of
:11:57. > :12:02.your articles which I'm curious about? It was the article where you
:12:02. > :12:07.talked about the possibility of an investigation. You said, C give this
:12:07. > :12:11.that macro figures in Rome say the apostolic visitation is dealing with
:12:11. > :12:18.the more general accusations of moral Malay sweeping the church in
:12:18. > :12:24.Scotland. What does that mean? Are there more general accusations of
:12:24. > :12:28.moral malaise? I think there are certainly accusations of moral
:12:28. > :12:35.malaise and I think there have been a number of stories that have
:12:35. > :12:41.followed the story of Keith O'Brien. Talk of gay cabals and gay cliques
:12:41. > :12:46.in the Glasgow dioceses and the Edinburgh dioceses. The problem is
:12:46. > :12:51.that some of this develops into slogans, it is not really about gay
:12:51. > :12:54.or straight, as one person said to me, it is about being open. I'm
:12:54. > :12:59.working on the story this week where another priest has come forward to
:12:59. > :13:04.talk about the effect of the institutional corruption on his
:13:04. > :13:14.life. I think there are many people who are keeping silent within the
:13:14. > :13:16.
:13:16. > :13:19.catholic church because that is the date condition of acceptance.
:13:19. > :13:23.Haldane, you explain the procedures involved in this do you think they
:13:23. > :13:32.need to something a bit more than just say, this is what our
:13:32. > :13:37.procedures are, move along now, nothing to say? I do not think that
:13:37. > :13:45.they should feel pressured by this demand that somehow Scotland
:13:45. > :13:55.deserves to know and so on. I think that is just irresponsible. If one
:13:55. > :13:57.
:13:57. > :14:02.has a serious interest, not just a journalistic appetite for exposure,
:14:02. > :14:05.in why the dioceses has run into trouble and a series interest in
:14:05. > :14:11.seeing that remedied, then one has to be attentive to what the ways of
:14:11. > :14:16.doing that might be. This demand for transparency is not serious, it is
:14:16. > :14:21.not responsible. The responsible thing is to look at the situation
:14:21. > :14:26.and see what you can do. You keep talking about technical procedures.
:14:26. > :14:32.I understand the point you're making within the archdioceses but there's
:14:32. > :14:37.also an image problem that the Catholic Church has in Scotland.
:14:37. > :14:41.did not use the phrase technical procedure. This man is a driven man
:14:41. > :14:44.of good judgement and good education. He is coming into a
:14:44. > :14:48.situation which is clearly very difficult about which he knows
:14:48. > :14:53.relatively little and will have to inform himself. A wise person is not
:14:53. > :14:57.going to rush into action. He will hear all sorts of things being said
:14:57. > :15:00.from different quarters and will have to reserve his judgement. It
:15:00. > :15:04.would be wrong to respond to the first thing said to him. He will
:15:04. > :15:08.have to listen to different people have to say and be aware of the fact
:15:08. > :15:12.that there are many bruised and injured people in all of this and
:15:12. > :15:18.act which her team trying to deal with. But it may not be that the
:15:18. > :15:21.best way of dealing with it is to rush into giving statements. If I
:15:21. > :15:27.had a criticism of the Catholic Church in recent times it seems to
:15:27. > :15:32.me it has been too easily adopt it in the person of both Cardinal
:15:32. > :15:42.O'Brien and Cardinal winning. In role has been offered to it, the
:15:42. > :15:42.
:15:42. > :15:52.idea of being a voice to the nation and so on. I do not think six months
:15:52. > :15:52.
:15:53. > :16:02.down the line is rushing things. There are many victims. I agree with
:16:03. > :16:11.
:16:11. > :16:19.that. Stephen McGinty, this hypocrisy might go, but the attitude
:16:19. > :16:23.regarding homosexuality is not likely to change. It is not likely
:16:23. > :16:33.that the new archbishop will come in with a different view on the
:16:33. > :16:35.
:16:35. > :16:45.churches teaching. It is not up to him. Absolutely. The faith is set
:16:45. > :16:49.
:16:49. > :16:53.down. There is no sign of anything like that changing soon. Thank you.
:16:53. > :16:58.Scottish ministers have descended on Shetland to hold a cabinet meeting
:16:59. > :17:04.and persuade Islanders that they really care. It is just a few weeks
:17:04. > :17:11.since council leaders from Orkney and Shetland Islands asked for more
:17:11. > :17:16.powers. Tomorrow we will find out if any move has been made in that
:17:16. > :17:21.direction. The Shetland Islands may be part of
:17:21. > :17:28.Scotland but they have always had their own distinct identity.
:17:28. > :17:34.Cultural traditions are strong here. They have got their own flag. They
:17:34. > :17:44.have got their own connections with their Nordic neighbours. And one of
:17:44. > :17:51.
:17:51. > :17:56.the jewels in Shetlandpos-macro is this terminal tilt in the 1970s. Now
:17:56. > :17:58.the Shetlands and Scotland's other island communities are asking for
:17:58. > :18:03.greater Government recognition whatever the outcome of the
:18:03. > :18:07.independence referendum. Their campaign has called for control of
:18:07. > :18:17.local sea bed areas, more help to develop renewable energy, and
:18:17. > :18:18.
:18:18. > :18:22.increased powers over spending. are looking for devolutionary powers
:18:22. > :18:29.that can be sensibly used to promote overall economy and the wider
:18:29. > :18:36.economy in Scotland and the UK. Scottish Cabinet arrived in Shetland
:18:36. > :18:43.today. We do not have a cabinet for Edinburgh. It is for the whole
:18:43. > :18:46.country. We are positive about community calls for more control.
:18:46. > :18:55.The whole basis of the movement for a national self-determination is to
:18:55. > :19:05.get more control. The Western Isles also have a distinct identity. It is
:19:05. > :19:05.
:19:05. > :19:13.the heart of the Gaelic speaking community. Top of their agenda is
:19:13. > :19:23.help to realise the Green energy potential. The most crucial thing
:19:23. > :19:26.
:19:26. > :19:36.has been the need for energy. The power to put that connection into
:19:36. > :19:51.
:19:51. > :19:55.place. We have interconnects -- we people have suggested fighting for
:19:55. > :20:00.home rule. While that is probably not on the cards in the near future
:20:00. > :20:07.they and their fellow islanders say they will fight on for greater
:20:08. > :20:14.recognition. A short while ago the Shetland MSP
:20:14. > :20:24.Tavish Scott came into our lyric studio, and the leader of Comhairle
:20:24. > :20:34.nan Eilean Siar, Angus Campbell, came into our Stornoway studio. I
:20:34. > :20:38.
:20:38. > :20:42.started by asking about home rule for Shetland. We have lost powers
:20:42. > :20:48.since the 1970s. It has got worse under devolution, particularly in
:20:48. > :20:54.the last six years. We can look at the model of the isle of man. I have
:20:54. > :20:59.talked to people in different island groups about how they run their own
:20:59. > :21:03.affairs. What I am clear about is that there are no barriers as to how
:21:03. > :21:12.we build stronger islands and serve our people more effectively than we
:21:12. > :21:16.are doing at the moment. Is there a suggestion that Shetland would
:21:16. > :21:26.consider its options if Scotland should vote for independence? It
:21:26. > :21:28.
:21:28. > :21:33.might stay in the UK? Or it may become a Crown dependency? Shetland
:21:33. > :21:43.will not be told what is going to happen by Edinburgh or London. It is
:21:43. > :21:50.a fascinating time. Are you suggesting that a referendum
:21:50. > :22:00.decision would not be binding on Shetland? I do not think Scotland
:22:00. > :22:02.
:22:02. > :22:06.will vote yes at all. Shetland and the other islands will carefully
:22:06. > :22:11.consider what they want out of this constitutional debate we are all
:22:12. > :22:15.having. If we do not say anything about our we will be absolutely
:22:15. > :22:25.ignored in Edinburgh and in London. This is a good chance for the
:22:25. > :22:25.
:22:25. > :22:31.islands to forward with ideas about our future. Angus Campbell, is the
:22:31. > :22:35.view the same at their, that people are not quite sure if Scotland
:22:35. > :22:39.becomes independent where they would want to be? Or is it is more
:22:39. > :22:48.straightforward? You just want the local council to be given more power
:22:48. > :22:54.and attention. It is not a matter of more power or attention. This type
:22:54. > :23:00.of debate only comes along once-in-a-lifetime. We have clear
:23:00. > :23:10.areas where we believe devolving powers back into the islands would
:23:10. > :23:16.
:23:16. > :23:21.give Scotland or the UK are better place as well. It is not just that
:23:21. > :23:25.you are going to meet the Scottish Government tomorrow. You would like
:23:26. > :23:32.the opponents of independents to also say what their proposals are
:23:32. > :23:42.for the islands. Absolutely. We are putting forward our thoughts as they
:23:42. > :23:47.Islands group 's. By being able to do things differently. We have seen
:23:47. > :23:51.examples across Europe and in the UK of how this can be achieved. We want
:23:51. > :23:56.to hear from both sides of the arguments, how they will support us
:23:56. > :24:06.in that. If we do not ask these questions we are missing an
:24:06. > :24:10.
:24:10. > :24:16.opportunity. Would you go along with the suggestion that you could become
:24:16. > :24:21.a Crown dependency? Anything like that would have to depend what was
:24:21. > :24:25.in it for the islands will stop if it came out of the discussions that
:24:25. > :24:28.there was an offer of Crown dependency that gave us clear
:24:28. > :24:33.advantages then it would inform the debate as to where we would go in
:24:33. > :24:37.our fault and that the tablets on outcome. I am not sure where that
:24:37. > :24:44.offer could come from. Presumably it would have to come from the British
:24:44. > :24:47.Government rather than the Scottish Government. That is probably true. I
:24:47. > :24:57.agree with the importance of the islands setting forth what they want
:24:57. > :25:02.
:25:02. > :25:12.from this debate. I do not think there are any great barriers to
:25:12. > :25:13.
:25:13. > :25:21.taking on a range of hours. The islands have clear ideas about what
:25:21. > :25:27.we would like. We have lost powers such as police and fire in the last
:25:27. > :25:35.12 years. Now we have the desire to look at what we have got and ask how
:25:35. > :25:42.we can serve our people better. You seem to be suggesting that the do
:25:42. > :25:52.not just have the lovely scenery, but a big stick. When you said it is
:25:52. > :26:02.not your oil, Alex, it is ours, what do you mean? The SNP needs to
:26:02. > :26:14.
:26:14. > :26:24.understand. A lot of oil is landed to the west of Shetlands. We have
:26:24. > :26:31.leverage in that. Power was given to our council in the 1970s by our UK
:26:31. > :26:36.Government at the time. That Government needed as. The Scottish
:26:36. > :26:46.Government will find that they also do. You are being coy what are you
:26:46. > :26:54.
:26:54. > :26:59.saying? Are you saying that this is Shetland's, not Scotland's? .
:26:59. > :27:06.is a legal opinion which says there is a decent argument about where
:27:06. > :27:13.that oil dividing line is. What we do have in this debate about
:27:13. > :27:21.Scotland's resources is some leverage. The oil industry is
:27:21. > :27:28.looking closely at Shetland. Angus Campbell, you are keen on control
:27:28. > :27:34.over the sea bed around the Western Isles. Presumably you are thinking
:27:34. > :27:41.about renewable energy. What advantage would that give you?
:27:41. > :27:50.Renewable energy is huge for the Outer Hebrides. We have the best
:27:50. > :27:55.resources in Europe. All the money for the rental of the sea bed going
:27:55. > :28:01.down to the Crown estate. We have argued that that should feed back
:28:01. > :28:11.into the local community. It feeds into other things such as
:28:11. > :28:12.
:28:12. > :28:20.agriculture and fisheries. Is it's just a rental you want? Shetland has
:28:20. > :28:28.been levying money on every arrow oil. If you had control over the sea
:28:29. > :28:32.bed you would be doing the equivalent of taking a levy. We want
:28:32. > :28:38.much more involvement in the positioning and planning of these
:28:38. > :28:43.renewable energy sources. Other issues such as fishing should come
:28:43. > :28:47.back to these islands. I understand you are likely to be offered a
:28:47. > :28:57.minister deal working group tomorrow. There's that any use to
:28:57. > :29:02.
:29:02. > :29:06.you rest and Mark -- used to you? Yes. That shows that the case we
:29:06. > :29:14.have been making is a very good one. Now we hope the Westminster
:29:14. > :29:20.Government will join. Time for a quick look at tomorrow's front
:29:20. > :29:27.pages. The Scotsman leads on the story we were talking about earlier.
:29:27. > :29:37.The new Archbishop vows to heal church wounds, says the headline.
:29:37. > :29:47.
:29:47. > :29:57.The Telegraph has their baby boy destined to become King George II.
:29:57. > :29:58.
:29:58. > :30:08.destined to become King George II. -- that is offer now.
:30:08. > :30:08.
:30:08. > :30:15.We are still in the midst of this warm spell. Northern Ireland and
:30:15. > :30:25.Scotland could have heal and gusty winds. Temperature is nothing
:30:25. > :30:36.
:30:36. > :30:46.spectacular. Towards the South there will be more sunshine around. The
:30:46. > :30:47.
:30:47. > :30:52.South West of the country will be fresher. Showers are more likely