:00:15. > :00:18.began and considers traitor. -- but Following allegations of physical
:00:18. > :00:23.and sexual abuse at this Catholic boarding school police say they are
:00:23. > :00:31.launching an enquiry. So far the Catholic hierarchy has said nothing,
:00:31. > :00:40.but can they remain silent? And we hear from coach operators who
:00:40. > :00:43.support three bus travel but say there needs to be a change of gear.
:00:43. > :00:49.Fort Augustus Abbey School was with some of Scotland's's leading
:00:49. > :00:56.Catholic families chose to send their sons, confident they would
:00:56. > :00:59.receive the best academic and spiritual education. But some
:00:59. > :01:09.received physical and sexual abuse at the hands of the Benedictine
:01:09. > :01:15.
:01:15. > :01:18.monks who ran the school which closed 20 years ago. The BBC heard
:01:18. > :01:27.accounts of physical and sexual abuse at Fort Augustus and its
:01:27. > :01:32.feeder school, Carlekemp in East Lothian -- East Lothian. In one
:01:32. > :01:36.case, an Australian monk repeatedly sexually abused a pupil. The
:01:36. > :01:40.headmaster failed to alert police and the monk was sent back to
:01:40. > :01:46.Australia with no warnings about his offending. He became a parish priest
:01:46. > :01:52.in Sydney. The Benedictine order is answerable only to the Pope. The
:01:52. > :01:55.Catholic hierarchy in Scotland has not commented on the investigation.
:01:56. > :02:00.Instead, Tina Campbell, the safeguarding adviser for the
:02:00. > :02:05.dioceses of Motherwell, has spoken for the church. She has accepted
:02:05. > :02:15.apologies must come from the top. It makes a tremendous difference for it
:02:15. > :02:19.
:02:20. > :02:22.to come from the leaders and the Shepards in our church.
:02:22. > :02:25.I know that some of our bishops are meeting with victims and offering a
:02:25. > :02:28.healing ministry. That is never reported but for a lot of people
:02:28. > :02:30.that is where it needs to come from. I think it is important that the
:02:30. > :02:33.church involved takes this seriously, I saw reports last night
:02:33. > :02:36.that suggests the currently the ship do, but also that steps are taken to
:02:36. > :02:39.make sure this cannot happen in the future.
:02:39. > :02:44.The allegations come in a difficult year for the Catholic Church in
:02:44. > :02:47.Scotland. Cardinal Keith O'Brien resigned in February after admitting
:02:47. > :02:53.improper sexual conduct towards fellow priests. Several dioceses are
:02:53. > :02:57.without the Bishop as the church continues to face questions about
:02:57. > :03:01.how it atones for its failings. I am joined by Mark Daly, who has
:03:01. > :03:04.been investigating the story for the past few months, and Stephen
:03:04. > :03:10.McGinty, who writes on church matters.
:03:10. > :03:15.Mark, what reaction have you had from the high heads in the Catholic
:03:15. > :03:19.Church today? None. The police have confirmed they are investigating,
:03:19. > :03:24.politicians have been calling for action, the head of the Benedictine
:03:24. > :03:29.monks has been saying they will launch some sort of Hinckley, but
:03:29. > :03:34.the silence from the senior clergy in the church has been deafening. --
:03:34. > :03:41.some sort of Hinckley. In Canada call sense, the Benedictines are
:03:41. > :03:44.answerable only to the Pope. -- in a canonical sense. As you saw in the
:03:44. > :03:52.piece, Fort Augustus was frequently visited and vociferously supported
:03:52. > :03:56.by the cream of the Catholic Church - bishops, Cardinals, who supported
:03:56. > :04:02.the school for decades. As recently as 2000, the former Bishop of
:04:02. > :04:05.Glasgow, Mario Conti, he said that the Abbey School had profoundly
:04:05. > :04:09.influenced the Catholic Church in Scotland. The school was
:04:09. > :04:12.inextricably bound up with the fabric of the church. That being the
:04:13. > :04:19.case, washing their hands and saying this is a Benedictine matter,
:04:19. > :04:23.nothing to do with us, that does not really wash with the victims. They
:04:23. > :04:29.expect answers from the people at the top of the Catholic Church. They
:04:29. > :04:35.expect accountability, and the way they feel they will get this is the
:04:35. > :04:39.-- through a full and open transparent inquiry.
:04:39. > :04:44.Do you feel this is a mistake? I think in terms of public relations
:04:44. > :04:48.it would be appropriate. It is not just public relations. The
:04:48. > :04:52.thing I find difficult to understand is this distinction, the
:04:53. > :04:59.Benedictines are directly accountable to Rome and we are the
:04:59. > :05:07.hierarchy in Scotland - again, it is all talking about, if you like, the
:05:07. > :05:10.producers of the problem and not the victims. The victims are the flock,
:05:10. > :05:16.these were Catholic children, Catholic families who thought they
:05:16. > :05:19.were interesting there children to the church of which they were
:05:19. > :05:25.members there is a cruel -- and there is a peculiar lack of concern
:05:26. > :05:30.about that. The church's argument is that this is a Benedictine matter
:05:30. > :05:34.and the head of the big team -- Benedictines has been explaining the
:05:34. > :05:41.situation. The overarching view of it is that this is a crisis within
:05:41. > :05:44.the Catholic Church, another ingredient to that crisis.
:05:44. > :05:48.It is important for the leadership of the Catholic Church to step
:05:48. > :05:53.forward and say that we are aware of what is going on, historically, with
:05:53. > :06:01.these cases and that things having placed to tackle it. Is that going
:06:01. > :06:07.Also, what else has gone on? The really striking thing, in Mark's
:06:07. > :06:11.film come it showed new allegations of abuse of -- at Fort Augustus, but
:06:11. > :06:15.allegations of abuse by priests are hardly new. We have massive scandals
:06:15. > :06:21.in America and other places. I don't remember the Catholic Church saying
:06:21. > :06:24.at other points we will know that these go back and investigate every
:06:24. > :06:27.institution and dioceses we were involved in to see what we can
:06:27. > :06:34.discover rather than reacting to stuff that is brought out in the
:06:34. > :06:37.press. In 1995 Catholic priest was prosecuted and sent down for child
:06:37. > :06:41.abuse, then the Catholic Church decided to get to grips with this.
:06:41. > :06:44.They organised a national body within the Catholic Church to look
:06:44. > :06:49.at it and they pulled together a number of cases and started
:06:49. > :06:52.reviewing them. What was interesting was is that in 1985 they said we
:06:52. > :06:59.have got to grips with this situation comedies under control,
:06:59. > :07:04.but then in 2004 the director of child progression -- protection
:07:04. > :07:08.wrote a very tough memo saying that enough -- not enough was being done.
:07:08. > :07:11.Problem priests were not being adequately supervised and eight
:07:11. > :07:15.years on the Catholic Church would say, well, we have dealt with this,
:07:15. > :07:19.we are tackling it, but the problem is now known -- most people no
:07:19. > :07:22.longer give the Catholic Church the benefit of the doubt. There is a
:07:22. > :07:26.feeling that there should be proper accountability, and more importantly
:07:26. > :07:30.for the church, they have to be more open about what they have done and
:07:30. > :07:34.are continuing to do. That is crucial and people are not seeing
:07:34. > :07:38.that. Yes, and if they will not be, others
:07:39. > :07:46.will step in. You were in a school near meeting this film and they have
:07:46. > :07:50.taken it out of the hands of the church there, haven't they? Yes, it
:07:50. > :07:54.reached a tipping point. One of the Cardinals, the senior clergy in
:07:54. > :07:58.Sydney, he talked about a crisis in faith as a result of this drip, drip
:07:58. > :08:02.of constant scandals, and it all came to a head last year. If I can
:08:02. > :08:05.read a quote from one of the senior police officers involved in one of
:08:06. > :08:15.the recent investigations into abuse in the Catholic Church, he said, I
:08:16. > :08:17.
:08:17. > :08:19.can testify from Michael and experience that the church covers
:08:19. > :08:25.up, silences victims, Enders police investigations, lets offenders,
:08:25. > :08:31.destroys evidence and moves priests to protect the church. -- testify
:08:31. > :08:35.from my own experience. A Royal commission was launched because,
:08:35. > :08:39.even if there are the best practices in place today, there are people in
:08:39. > :08:42.Australia that feel they cannot truly move on, they cannot have
:08:43. > :08:48.confidence in the policies they have today until they go right back to
:08:48. > :08:54.the beginning. And that Royal commission is still going on.
:08:54. > :08:58.It has only just kicked off, just giving evidence.
:08:58. > :09:04.The Pope's comments yesterday were not about the same thing but he is
:09:04. > :09:07.being much more conciliatory. Why not get everything out in the open?
:09:07. > :09:11.That is the problem, that is the Catholic Church's attitude.
:09:11. > :09:14.They always keep things behind closed doors and deal with things in
:09:14. > :09:19.the church. I think those days effectively are over.
:09:19. > :09:23.We will have to leave it there. Thank you both. Free bus travel for
:09:23. > :09:27.the over 60s was launched seven years ago by a Lib Dem minister.
:09:27. > :09:31.Oddly enough, it has become one of the flagship policies of the SNP
:09:31. > :09:40.government. Could it be the scheme which is usually increased access to
:09:40. > :09:44.public transport is threatening bus Free bus travel for the over 60s
:09:44. > :09:48.used to be something of a no-brainer. The cash rolled them for
:09:48. > :09:52.the bus companies, pensioners could travel all over Scotland free of
:09:52. > :09:56.charge and everyone loved the government for it. But things have
:09:56. > :10:01.changed. The subsidy pot is shrinking and the cost of running a
:10:01. > :10:05.bus service is rising. Bus companies say that could lead to cuts in roots
:10:05. > :10:10.and services. The simple answer is that it is one
:10:10. > :10:13.of the few ways you can save money, cutting services. It will probably
:10:13. > :10:18.force people into making decisions that under normal business rules you
:10:18. > :10:22.would not make. Really, cutting services, cutting males, cutting
:10:22. > :10:26.journeys is one of the few ways you can save costs if you have an
:10:27. > :10:30.efficient operation. I think it is fair to say that in the Scottish bus
:10:30. > :10:35.industry we have a fairly efficient operation.
:10:35. > :10:38.The scheme works on the basis that operators are no better or worse off
:10:38. > :10:43.for participating, but bus companies are getting less from the government
:10:43. > :10:48.than they used to, even though the scheme is just as popular.
:10:48. > :10:54.When the scheme first started, the government gave bus companies 73% of
:10:54. > :10:58.every pensioner's Feher. Three years later and that fell to 67%. No
:10:59. > :11:03.companies are looking at getting just 60% back from the government.
:11:03. > :11:08.-- melody is complete. Here at McGill's they have invested in new
:11:08. > :11:13.buses. The company has grown by 20% thanks to the free bus travel scheme
:11:13. > :11:19.but its popularity among the over 60s puts pressure on the service.
:11:19. > :11:22.Nearly 40% of my revenue comes from the concessionary scheme.
:11:22. > :11:26.Traditionally it was about 20% of the customer base was an OAP, which
:11:26. > :11:31.is what they were cold. The problem now is it is too big a part of your
:11:31. > :11:35.business. If the income falls but the passenger journeys are still
:11:35. > :11:38.there, you don't not have the normal levers you can pull in business in
:11:39. > :11:42.order to make efficiencies and savings. That is an issue, because
:11:42. > :11:46.the people affected will not be the concession cardholders, but the
:11:46. > :11:50.other people, the people that are cash payers and not causing this
:11:50. > :11:52.problem. I would like to see something along the lines of what is
:11:52. > :11:58.done in England with the concessionary scheme, whereby there
:11:58. > :12:05.is a curfew, nine EMR Tenney, we are people using their card before that
:12:05. > :12:11.time have to contribute towards the cost of that. -- 9am or 10am curfew.
:12:11. > :12:16.The result is one other option is that if you only had over 65 Google
:12:16. > :12:18.Jew would have a five-year holiday where you do not issue cards at
:12:18. > :12:22.all. But would passengers be prepared for
:12:22. > :12:27.something -- to pay for something that has been free for years.
:12:27. > :12:31.Would you be prepared to pay 50p to get on a bus to Largs?
:12:31. > :12:35.I would want to get there. If it came to the push they were taking it
:12:35. > :12:38.away from us, no chance, I will walk everywhere.
:12:38. > :12:46.We would need to pay it if they put it on, but I don't think we should
:12:46. > :12:51.need to pay it. I wouldn't mind paying it.
:12:51. > :12:57.I wouldn't mind paying 50 prints. That is just the way he is. But I
:12:57. > :13:07.don't think it is right. It should be free.
:13:07. > :13:08.
:13:09. > :13:17.The trains do it. No, that is out, no. I don't have the money. I'm a
:13:17. > :13:21.pensioner! The charity age of Scotland accepts
:13:22. > :13:24.something needs to be done to make the scheme sustainable but says
:13:24. > :13:30.charging even a small adult money could discourage people from using
:13:30. > :13:33.the bus at all. Loneliness and isolation is a problem in Scotland,
:13:34. > :13:39.so anything that will have an impact on allowing older people to get out
:13:39. > :13:43.and about from a social aspect and using services, we would have grave
:13:43. > :13:48.concerns. What we are trying to proposes there is a way of paying
:13:49. > :13:52.for that, and again we would advocate looking at the eligibility
:13:52. > :13:57.age, and that is again through canvassing older people who would be
:13:57. > :14:01.supportive of it. Advocates of the travel scheme say
:14:01. > :14:05.its benefits go beyond the over 60s, creating more jobs at bus companies
:14:05. > :14:13.and getting pensioners spending on the high street. But is it a luxury
:14:13. > :14:16.we can no longer afford? Well, we could not convince anyone
:14:16. > :14:25.from the government or from transport Scotland to join us, but I
:14:25. > :14:27.am joined from Edinburgh by', the -- by George Mair, who is the director
:14:27. > :14:33.of the Federation of transport Scotland.
:14:33. > :14:38.Robert Magill clearly thinks it is a problem, is it to do with this cap?
:14:38. > :14:42.Is that the main issue? I think we have to continue to work
:14:43. > :14:47.with governments to explore the opportunity in these constrained
:14:47. > :14:52.times to find ways to manage the scheme more effectively, but also
:14:52. > :14:58.perhaps reduce the financial burden on Governor. The simple answer is it
:14:58. > :15:04.quite clearly cannot be maintained. -- burden on government. We have
:15:04. > :15:08.spent a lot of time this last year working with government to get a
:15:08. > :15:13.base set, developed a model to de-dash-macro predict the cost of
:15:13. > :15:19.the scheme going forward. This scheme is so important we have to
:15:19. > :15:22.continue that work going forward. What is wrong with this team at the
:15:22. > :15:25.moment to Michael is it because it is nice weather too many old people
:15:25. > :15:29.are getting on the buses and because there is a cap there is no return
:15:29. > :15:32.from it? This year we are seeing an
:15:32. > :15:36.increasing patronage, and the likelihood is if that was to
:15:36. > :15:42.continue throughout the of the year, we would see operators being paid at
:15:42. > :15:49.a lower level than the 60% that has been agreed. That is quite a
:15:49. > :15:53.perverse situation, that we complain about seeing a growth in patronage.
:15:53. > :15:58.The way to deal with that is to work closely with government to get the
:15:58. > :16:03.scheme to a sustainable level. you accept that shelling out more
:16:04. > :16:08.public money is not a solution for you, what is a solution?
:16:08. > :16:13.As was mentioned in that interview, there are options. The age criteria,
:16:13. > :16:19.for example. In England it is linked to pensionable age. You can have a
:16:19. > :16:21.period that is phased in, so that people who have passed on to lose
:16:21. > :16:26.the benefit. Just to simplify this, rather than
:16:26. > :16:31.60 years could be 65, that is what you are saying? Yes, and you would
:16:31. > :16:37.have a period of grace that cards are not issued, reducing the cost to
:16:37. > :16:41.government, and if you even charged 10p over 146 million journeys, that
:16:41. > :16:47.would take a huge pressure off the government.
:16:47. > :16:54.10p? Yes, on 146 million journeys.
:16:55. > :16:57.That would be enough? These are options that need to be
:16:57. > :17:02.explored. As matters stand, are we to take the
:17:02. > :17:05.threat from some of the bus companies that there will be cuts in
:17:05. > :17:07.services seriously? I very much hope the model we have
:17:07. > :17:16.developed in conjunction with transport Scotland will hold us in
:17:16. > :17:21.good stead. We agree the parameters of the model and that will drive the
:17:21. > :17:26.outcomes. The government has accepted the agreement we have at
:17:26. > :17:34.present and we will be working with Transport Scotland in the weeks
:17:34. > :17:37.ahead to look beyond... I gather that means there may be cuts in
:17:38. > :17:43.services unless you reach a deal? If the only answer is reimbursement,
:17:43. > :17:47.there is not a great deal of options left to deal with that.
:17:47. > :17:52.Thank you very much. Now a look at tomorrow's front pages.
:17:52. > :17:55.Bradley Manning is on many of them. There is a picture of him, US
:17:56. > :18:00.WikiLeaks soldier guilty of espionage. Bradley Manning, cleared
:18:00. > :18:08.of aiding an enemy but still facing 154 years in jail.
:18:08. > :18:14.The Daily Telegraph - Tory adviser backs fracking in desolate
:18:15. > :18:19.north-east. John Humphrys is a victim of BBC
:18:19. > :18:25.left-wing bias, apparently. That is according to the Daily Telegraph,