:00:14. > :00:17.Tonight we'll have our second film from Northern Ireland looking at ow
:00:17. > :00:20.the independence campaign here is feeding into political debate there.
:00:20. > :00:26.And we take to the streets of Glasgow to find out what the
:00:26. > :00:30.citizens of Britain's most vegan-friendly city make of some
:00:30. > :00:32.meat-free food. Good evening. Despite the clear
:00:32. > :00:35.differences in their politics, links between Scotland and Northern
:00:36. > :00:38.Ireland remain strong, and many across the Irish Sea are looking in
:00:38. > :00:42.with interest at our debate over independence. Last night we heard
:00:42. > :00:44.the concerns of the unionists. Tonight, in the second of his two
:00:44. > :00:51.reports form Derry Londonderry, Ian Hamilton has been talking to
:00:51. > :00:59.nationalists. This week is a big week in Derry Londonderry, if you
:00:59. > :01:04.are a fan of Irish treble music and culture. Because, 300,000 music fans
:01:04. > :01:10.and 20,000 performers will descend upon the city in the largest
:01:10. > :01:15.celebration of Irish music anywhere in the world. And this will be the
:01:15. > :01:21.first time that the floor has come to Northern Ireland. In its 62-year
:01:21. > :01:26.history. The fact it is coming here to this Catholic-dominated city is
:01:26. > :01:32.very symbolic. In the last decade, this old world city has come a long
:01:32. > :01:36.way, to such an extent that it is this year's UK City of Culture.
:01:36. > :01:41.Buildings that have been bombed have been rebuilt and the waterfront has
:01:41. > :01:45.been given a Continental fee the Peace Bridge spans the river
:01:45. > :01:48.connecting both communities together. Depending on the answer in
:01:48. > :01:51.next year's referendum on Scottish independence, throughout the UK
:01:51. > :01:59.there's no doubt it could cause ripples. Here in Northern Ireland,
:01:59. > :02:03.it could cause waves. This is the Irish language centre in Derry. The
:02:03. > :02:07.man showing me around is the manager. He is also responsible for
:02:07. > :02:12.running the Fleadh and he believes that Scottish independence could be
:02:12. > :02:19.the catalyst for change, not only in Scotland but throughout the British
:02:19. > :02:23.Isles. The majority of people in this town and this part of Ireland
:02:23. > :02:28.probably wouldn't be sad to see the United Kingdom loosen its grip on
:02:28. > :02:34.some of the regions. So I actually think that Scotland in many ways
:02:34. > :02:36.could lead the way in terms of people developing a more regional
:02:37. > :02:41.identity and regional self determination. I think that will
:02:41. > :02:45.have an impact on the culture of this part of Ireland as well.
:02:45. > :02:48.all the things that Scotland and Northern Ireland have in common, we
:02:49. > :02:53.also have some major differences the, according to people here in
:02:53. > :02:55.Northern Ireland. At least we are wanted, unlike them. One of the
:02:55. > :02:59.differences between Scotland and Northern Ireland in the relationship
:02:59. > :03:02.with London, if I can put it like that, nd in the relationship with
:03:02. > :03:06.London, if I can put it like that, is this - that the entirety of the
:03:06. > :03:13.British political class is broadly speaking in favour of retaining
:03:13. > :03:16.Scotland. Within the union. I would say that the entirety of the British
:03:16. > :03:19.political class couldn't care two balls of blue arrangement whether
:03:19. > :03:23.Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom or not, and they've
:03:23. > :03:28.made it clear that if Scotland were to leave the union, I think the
:03:28. > :03:32.British ruling class, as I would put it, would shrug their shoulders and
:03:32. > :03:36.say, let Northern Ireland go. decades here sectarian factions have
:03:36. > :03:40.been batten either to maintain or break up the union. So some
:03:40. > :03:45.commentators have been saying it is a bit iron take the potential
:03:45. > :03:49.break-up of the United Kingdom is coming from elsewhere. In the not
:03:49. > :03:53.too distant past unionist politicians were saying that the
:03:53. > :03:56.union has never been more secure. Now it is extraordinary that we have
:03:56. > :04:00.perhaps the looming threat to the union itself, potentially a threat
:04:00. > :04:04.to the union itself, coming from where in from this new eastern front
:04:04. > :04:07.which has opened up in the most unlikely of coming from where in
:04:07. > :04:09.from this new eastern front which has opened up in the most unlikely
:04:09. > :04:12.of all place - in Scotland, where people in the unionist community
:04:12. > :04:16.here would feel a kinship with people. Of the few Irish
:04:16. > :04:21.nationalists I spoke to on my trip they found it extraordinary that
:04:21. > :04:27.Scotland might achieve a referendum on independence and not one person
:04:27. > :04:32.being killed in the process. It will be achieved hopefully by not
:04:32. > :04:36.planting one bomb or a bullet. It shows the strength of politics and
:04:36. > :04:41.democracy. If I believed in a united Ireland hate to be about much more
:04:41. > :04:45.than waving a flag. We have to prove the case. That's what the debate in
:04:45. > :04:47.Scotland's been about, economics the case. That's what the debate in
:04:47. > :04:48.Scotland's been about, economics and social issues - all the
:04:48. > :04:55.practicalities important for delivering an independence Scotland.
:04:55. > :04:57.That's a lesson for us to learn. a great number of those who want a
:04:57. > :05:01.united Ireland, they are enthusiastic about an independent
:05:01. > :05:05.Scotland, because they believe it might help their cause. But the
:05:05. > :05:10.statistics don't bear that out. According to the Northern Ireland
:05:10. > :05:16.life and times survey, 73% of the entire electorate in Northern
:05:16. > :05:22.Ireland wish to remain with the UK. 52% of Catholics also wish to remain
:05:22. > :05:26.with the UK. And the figure for Protestants is 96%. Local opinion
:05:26. > :05:32.polls and other evidence has shown that the Catholic community isn't as
:05:32. > :05:35.strongly in favour of a united Ireland as it once was. Social
:05:35. > :05:39.processes in Northern Ireland, most people don't talk about here. We
:05:39. > :05:43.have a Catholic middle class which has grown, at the benefit of public
:05:43. > :05:47.sector employment, so there is that argument about would you bite the
:05:47. > :05:51.hand that feeds you? What does a potential independence Scotland mean
:05:51. > :05:55.for Northern Ireland? Well, it doesn't necessarily a united
:05:55. > :06:00.Ireland. Nor does it mean that they themselves would follow suit and
:06:01. > :06:03.become an independent state. What they are all keen on is more power
:06:04. > :06:13.for Stormont, particularly around corporation tax, so that they can
:06:13. > :06:17.compete with their near neighbour to the south.
:06:17. > :06:19.I'm joined now from Belfast by Peter Shirlow, who you saw in that film.
:06:19. > :06:23.He's professor of conflict transformation at Queens University,
:06:23. > :06:27.Belfast. And here in the studio is the journalist Peter Geoghegan, who
:06:27. > :06:31.writes for publications both in the UK and Ireland. If you look across
:06:31. > :06:36.the whole community in Northern Ireland, is it fair to say that this
:06:37. > :06:40.whole debate here is causing a certain awkwardness? I think there's
:06:40. > :06:45.an element for both nationalists and unionists in Northern Ireland that
:06:45. > :06:48.the debate in Scotland does raise tensions and issues for both
:06:48. > :06:52.communities. I think it is still quite early on in the process for
:06:52. > :06:57.Northern Ireland to see what the debate in Scotland and on Scottish
:06:57. > :06:59.independence really would mean for them. But binge it is causing more
:06:59. > :07:04.problems possibly on the youngest side than the nationalist side, as I
:07:04. > :07:08.think you saw from your view tonight. Peter Shirlow, one of your
:07:08. > :07:16.themes which you referred to in the film is that there's particularly a
:07:16. > :07:22.middle class on both the Catholic and the Protestant side in Ireland
:07:22. > :07:24.which decreationly cease itself in religious terms. C and the
:07:24. > :07:27.Protestant side in Ireland which decreationly cease itself in
:07:27. > :07:31.religious terms. -- decreasingly sees itself in religious terms. As
:07:31. > :07:38.devolution has been embedded more people in Scotland are voting for
:07:38. > :07:42.the SNP and in Northern Ireland voting for Sinn Fein but that's
:07:42. > :07:46.among a decline in Northern Ireland. People saying they aren't in favour
:07:46. > :07:50.of a united Ireland. One thing that came out strongly in the recent
:07:50. > :07:54.census was the growth of an identity which was Northern Irish. More than
:07:54. > :07:59.a quarter of those said they were Northern Irish, and it has no real
:07:59. > :08:03.political form. If it includes a significant number of middle class
:08:03. > :08:06.Catholics, who when I met them at university would have been very
:08:06. > :08:10.anti-British, would have spoken clearly about the oppression they
:08:10. > :08:13.experience, the difficulties of politician, et cetera, but now feel
:08:13. > :08:17.they are part of Northern Irish society. Because of our equality
:08:17. > :08:22.legislation, there is a very different Northern Ireland to that
:08:22. > :08:28.which we had in 1968. Is part of your point that this new social
:08:28. > :08:32.formation, if you like, which straddles the divides, isn't
:08:32. > :08:36.represented by the political parties in Northern Ireland which take the
:08:36. > :08:43.old traditional forms? That's what important to read what might happen
:08:43. > :08:47.if we had a border poll. I'm not saying the Catholic middle class
:08:47. > :08:51.might stay... We lost you for a second. Sorry, the point I was
:08:51. > :08:55.trying to make was that I'm not saying that the Catholic middle
:08:55. > :09:00.class would necessarily vote in a border poll to stay in the United
:09:00. > :09:03.Kingdom, but what they might do is they may not vote. One of the issues
:09:04. > :09:08.here that is very strong is that sense of ambiguity now. The we've
:09:08. > :09:11.got to understand that the conflicts that raised tensions here, but for
:09:11. > :09:16.the middle classes those tensions have disappeared. We have more mixed
:09:16. > :09:20.marriages here. Have you heard of mixed marriage? What identity do you
:09:20. > :09:27.bring your children up in? These processes are fluid and will be
:09:27. > :09:29.understood much more than they are. Okay. The figures, 52% of people who
:09:29. > :09:33.identify themselves as Catholic or nationalist in Northern Ireland in
:09:33. > :09:37.five of remaining with the UK. Do they surprise you? I think the
:09:37. > :09:41.Northern Ireland life and times findings were quite surprising,
:09:41. > :09:48.because in the last year we've seen Sinn Fein say they would like a
:09:48. > :09:52.border poll, which hasn't been taken place since 1973. In 1973 it wasn't
:09:52. > :09:56.really a real border poll. It is looking like it would be a huge
:09:56. > :10:01.majority in favour of staying in the union. I think it is surprising but
:10:01. > :10:06.parents again how much is a poll on Scottish independence relevant
:10:06. > :10:10.before a vote on it? Sure, presumably there is an influence
:10:10. > :10:13.here with the problems that Ireland has had? Without a doubt. With the
:10:13. > :10:18.economic problems in the south of Ireland and the fact that we've seen
:10:18. > :10:28.in the last five years in particular the north-south strand of the Good
:10:28. > :10:29.
:10:29. > :10:34.Friday Agreement has weakened a there. Is no huge enthusiasm.
:10:34. > :10:40.terms of thinking in different ways that we were just hearing, could
:10:40. > :10:48.debate in Scotland and in the rest of the be helpful? Whether Scotland
:10:48. > :10:58.becomes independent or if devolution is increased, could it have the kind
:10:58. > :10:59.
:10:59. > :11:05.of effect of the European Union when it was being set up? Even without
:11:05. > :11:09.Scotland actually being independent, the very fact we are having a
:11:09. > :11:16.conversation along these lines creates a moment in Northern Ireland
:11:16. > :11:22.for people to ask how Northern Ireland is known. The Good Friday
:11:22. > :11:29.agreement is not really a final constitutional settlement. It is a
:11:29. > :11:36.holding position. I know you are worried about the emerging middle
:11:36. > :11:41.class across the sectarian divide. You are also worried about
:11:41. > :11:46.formations on both sides at the other end of the social scale who
:11:46. > :11:51.increasingly feel that they have been duped over the past 20 years.
:11:51. > :11:57.Poverty is a factor. There is an unsteadiness. It is interesting beer
:11:57. > :12:04.talking class. There are those who have been left behind and those who
:12:04. > :12:11.have benefited from the peace process. Amongst that section of
:12:11. > :12:18.society, you will feel stronger attitudes than in the coffee culture
:12:18. > :12:27.members of society. There is a strong argument about the SNP being
:12:27. > :12:32.a friend to small nations. The Republic of Ireland had to surrender
:12:32. > :12:38.a great deal of its sovereignty when the Celtic Tiger collapsed. They had
:12:38. > :12:44.to surrender to the IMF and had to come under greater control from the
:12:44. > :12:52.European Union. At one point, Alex Salmond was praising the Celtic
:12:52. > :12:56.Tiger. But in crisis they found it led to less sovereignty. I want to
:12:56. > :13:02.pursue this point about the other end of the social scale. Is there a
:13:02. > :13:11.particular problem, do you think, with disaffected loyalists? A
:13:11. > :13:16.culture which feels that modern society has passed it by? That they
:13:16. > :13:26.feel abandoned? I think it is similar to the white middle-class of
:13:26. > :13:28.
:13:28. > :13:33.Britain. Republicans are triumphant and they are culturally and
:13:33. > :13:36.politically in the ascent. Somehow, they have been manipulated by
:13:36. > :13:44.unionism and left behind. That is the frustration. And within the
:13:44. > :13:53.community, barriers are being broken down. Defined projects -- you find
:13:53. > :14:00.projects and you find people working to find solutions. The media
:14:00. > :14:08.coverage is that the wheel that squeaks the most gets the oil.
:14:08. > :14:12.Briefly, how do you deal with that? Do you just hope that time and new
:14:12. > :14:17.generations fuel that? Or do you have to intervene? Those are some
:14:17. > :14:22.important points about the class differentiation. You cannot just
:14:22. > :14:28.wait for tying. You do need some sort of action. Thank you both very
:14:28. > :14:31.much. We'll have to leave that for the moment.
:14:31. > :14:34.The Glaswegian diet is not famed for being rich in vegetables unless you
:14:35. > :14:37.count chips. So there was some disbelief when Glasgow was named the
:14:37. > :14:41.most vegan-friendly city in Britain by the animal rights charity PETA.
:14:41. > :14:45.We decided to send Jullie Peacock onto the streets of the city with
:14:45. > :14:53.some vegan treats to see if we could tempt some of its citizens away from
:14:53. > :15:00.the meat pies. Glasgow has won many accolades, some
:15:00. > :15:07.good and some not so good. City of culture, most violent place Europe
:15:07. > :15:13.or Best city of the Empire. But best place to be a" you Mac what is so
:15:13. > :15:23.great is that so many people are turning away from the cholesterol
:15:23. > :15:26.
:15:26. > :15:33.filled sausage and bacon rolls and are trying the healthier the Deegan
:15:33. > :15:43.-- trying the healthy food of being a vegan. This is one cafe in the
:15:43. > :15:44.
:15:44. > :15:52.merchant city which offers exclusively vegan food. Vegan food
:15:52. > :15:59.is healthy food. People think it is just vegetables and raw vegetables.
:15:59. > :16:05.It is good to have a healthy and balanced diet, there is no reason
:16:05. > :16:10.why vegan food can also be delicious and a bit of a treat. Are meat
:16:10. > :16:17.eaters and vegetarians coming in to try your food as well as people who
:16:17. > :16:27.are vegan? I would agree with that. There was an meat free Monday which
:16:27. > :16:27.
:16:27. > :16:35.Paul McCartney was involved with. People started thinking about
:16:35. > :16:41.varying their diet. I think people are getting the message that a
:16:41. > :16:49.varied diet is a good thing. even among vegan food lovers, there
:16:50. > :16:56.is some surprise at our new moniker. I am shocked, to be honest. Some
:16:56. > :17:06.people find it difficult to find a restaurant that will have a varied
:17:06. > :17:08.
:17:08. > :17:17.vegan menu. I don't like supporting places that serve animal products.
:17:17. > :17:27.This is a typical West of Scotland feast. Deep fried vegetables, sweet
:17:27. > :17:37.things. And none of it has any daily or meet. So how will the people of
:17:37. > :17:56.
:17:56. > :18:03.sounds like good food to me. That is beautiful. Very good. Magic! That is
:18:03. > :18:13.better than normal food. Do you know that there is no meat in that?
:18:13. > :18:16.
:18:16. > :18:26.thought it was a normal hotdog. It is nice, but.... That tastes like a
:18:26. > :18:29.
:18:29. > :18:39.kludgy dumpling. That tastes like a normal cake. There are is no dairy
:18:39. > :18:44.
:18:44. > :18:54.product in that. I think I would eat that. I want steak! That is good,
:18:54. > :18:57.
:18:57. > :19:02.but state and men's is nice. You have not changed my mind. Vegan food
:19:02. > :19:08.has been a resounding success in Glasgow. Pollard might not replace
:19:08. > :19:13.Lorne sausage in the Hearts and stomachs of people heal -- whilst it
:19:13. > :19:23.might not replace Lorne sausage in the heart and stomach of people
:19:23. > :19:30.