:00:00. > :00:00.and even disgusting. Northern Ireland's attempts to come to terms
:00:07. > :00:13.with its toxic past remain far from resolved.
:00:14. > :00:18.Tonight on Newsnight Scotland: Benefits docked four main
:00:19. > :00:24.infringement of the rules. We will ask why there has been is upturn in
:00:25. > :00:30.benefit sanctions. And we will speak to First Minister
:00:31. > :00:33.of Wales who will give us the benefit of his wisdom on the
:00:34. > :00:40.Independence debate. Many people are being issued with
:00:41. > :00:50.benefit sanctions, having their benefits taken away for a few weeks
:00:51. > :00:54.or up to years. The number of sanctions has risen steeply and
:00:55. > :01:00.critics say some of the reasons seem shockingly trivial. As this about
:01:01. > :01:09.treating people fairly or cutting the welfare bill?
:01:10. > :01:11.One Wednesday, Stevie went to get his benefits from the post office
:01:12. > :01:18.and they weren't there. He wasn't told why. Since then his life has
:01:19. > :01:25.been extremely hard and even now he is so afraid of reprisals he asked
:01:26. > :01:29.to be anonymous. I went to the Jobcentre to find out
:01:30. > :01:35.there was no money and they told me I had been sanctioned. He never told
:01:36. > :01:39.me why I was sanctions but that I was sanctioned for four weeks. The
:01:40. > :01:45.worrying thing is that the receptionists told me that I was
:01:46. > :01:54.lucky it was not for longer. Friends to get in turn to have him
:01:55. > :02:02.round for dinner. I was desperate. The weight just fell off. I would be
:02:03. > :02:08.lucky if I ate one meal everyday. The mental health side of it was
:02:09. > :02:13.probably the worst. I've never felt so low in my life.
:02:14. > :02:18.Sanctions are a way of saying that your benefits are being stopped.
:02:19. > :02:23.Everyday in Scotland, 220 of these are applied. They are normally for
:02:24. > :02:28.failure to provide evidence that you are looking for work, failure to
:02:29. > :02:39.accept or apply for a job or failure to turn up for training. Behind the
:02:40. > :02:44.statistics are real people. We can forget that what we're
:02:45. > :02:49.talking about is having no money. That means no food, no heating for
:02:50. > :02:56.your family, it means people 's physical and mental health going
:02:57. > :03:00.downhill rapidly. People are going to foodbanks. We are talking about
:03:01. > :03:06.an issue of justice, not charity. People are contemplating suicide or
:03:07. > :03:14.committing a crime to go to prison where they will at least be fed.
:03:15. > :03:19.Two years ago, they dealt with a 25% rise in the number of new cases of
:03:20. > :03:24.people being sanctioned. Last year it dealt with 43% more people.
:03:25. > :03:31.Citizens advice Scotland says it is pushing people further into poverty.
:03:32. > :03:40.We are seeing a rise in claimants being sanctioned but also the
:03:41. > :03:46.penalties are harsher. For the worst offences, it can go up to three
:03:47. > :03:55.years. Citizens Advice Scotland are not
:03:56. > :03:56.against sanctions. The Department for Work and Pensions give us this
:03:57. > :04:31.statement. One MSP queries by 220 new sanctions
:04:32. > :04:35.every day is too much. Who says it is too many?
:04:36. > :04:39.If anyone feels they are being treated inappropriately then they
:04:40. > :04:45.should appeal it or contact their MP. The application of sanctions is
:04:46. > :04:51.essential to the fair application of the welfare system and it would be
:04:52. > :04:54.unfair to think that anybody was getting off with not applying the
:04:55. > :05:00.rules. Like back there is anecdotal evidence that part of the problem
:05:01. > :05:06.lies in poorly trained staff at Jobcentres.
:05:07. > :05:16.Proper training is the way to go. If we can achieve consistency,
:05:17. > :05:22.complaints will diminish. And other countries, there is
:05:23. > :05:27.evidence that sanctions can work. When the economy is doing well,
:05:28. > :05:33.people can get into some kind of job, even if it doesn't last for
:05:34. > :05:37.very long. But when the economy is doing badly, it is much more likely
:05:38. > :05:44.that we will be pushing people, not just out of the benefit system, but
:05:45. > :05:49.into crying, addictions and we risk seeing the growth of state-sponsored
:05:50. > :05:58.destitution, not just increased poverty.
:05:59. > :06:05.This website is for anyone to post their stories of sanctions. Some are
:06:06. > :06:09.at the extreme end. So our sanctions too much? Unfair and pushing people
:06:10. > :06:14.into destitution? Or are they ate their way to manage the benefit
:06:15. > :06:24.system? No one from the Department of the
:06:25. > :06:28.war contention is that back work and pension or the Conservatives or the
:06:29. > :06:34.Liberal Democrats would come on the programme.
:06:35. > :06:38.The person on the film who says he was given no reason why he was
:06:39. > :06:44.sanctions, is that supposed to happen? That is a very difficult
:06:45. > :06:48.question to answer because so many people have said that they don't get
:06:49. > :06:52.a reason or they don't understand the reason.
:06:53. > :06:59.If they do get series and then it is not always clear why it has been set
:07:00. > :07:04.at the level it has. The sanctions start at four weeks but for many
:07:05. > :07:08.people they rapidly move on to a 13 week sanctioned.
:07:09. > :07:14.The whole point of the sanction is to deter you from doing it again but
:07:15. > :07:18.if you do not know what it is, it is difficult to do that.
:07:19. > :07:23.There are different reasons why people are sanctions. Someone could
:07:24. > :07:28.be sanctioned for being late for an interview once I'm and the next time
:07:29. > :07:33.for failing to carry out a direction and they wouldn't necessarily
:07:34. > :07:38.understand that they go up the tariff and get gritter sanctions as
:07:39. > :07:43.a result. There has been a rise in people
:07:44. > :07:47.getting sanctions but isn't that precisely the point of these new
:07:48. > :07:52.rules. The government is trying to say, if you want job-seeker's
:07:53. > :07:56.Allowance, they have to demonstrate you will look for a job and if you
:07:57. > :08:00.cannot do that you won't get the allowance?
:08:01. > :08:05.I'm not sure that is the point of the new rules. They said it was
:08:06. > :08:12.important to make things clearer and more regular and also to make the
:08:13. > :08:17.sanctions tougher. What I'd do not think anybody had signalled was
:08:18. > :08:21.really quite staggering increase that there has been in the sheer
:08:22. > :08:29.number of sanctions. More than 50,000 people in Scotland in just
:08:30. > :08:37.under one year. Not only those 50,000 people, but nearly another
:08:38. > :08:45.40,000 have been threatened with sanctions and have left their
:08:46. > :08:53.efforts that smack benefits subsequently. It is probably about
:08:54. > :09:04.one and employed person in five that is affected by this. It is one of
:09:05. > :09:06.these things that is difficult for outsiders to know what is going on
:09:07. > :09:12.here. There are so many people involved,
:09:13. > :09:19.it would be pretty amazing if some people would sometimes feel they
:09:20. > :09:27.were being treated unfairly. Using to be suggesting that there could be
:09:28. > :09:37.something more than what you would expect.
:09:38. > :09:44.Yes. There are people like the man in your fill that think it is she
:09:45. > :09:53.fall and they do not want to talk to people about. But the great that the
:09:54. > :09:58.guilty is that when we are talking about such a mass of people, it is
:09:59. > :10:05.threatening the security that the benefit system offers.
:10:06. > :10:11.There have been allegations that Jobcentres are setting targets to
:10:12. > :10:15.increase the number of sanctions they are applying. Is there any
:10:16. > :10:25.evidence for this? There is and isn't. What happened
:10:26. > :10:30.was that the Guardian put together a dossier of letters and e-mails which
:10:31. > :10:43.provided that evidence and that evidence was reviewed and what's the
:10:44. > :10:53.Department of work and says about these letters and e-mails is that it
:10:54. > :11:04.is not part of our current policy. This is even though the targets are
:11:05. > :11:08.there in black and white. Is this sanctions regime addressing
:11:09. > :11:13.a real problem? Everybody knows that some people claiming benefits are at
:11:14. > :11:23.it but whether it is a few people or a systemic problem is a different
:11:24. > :11:36.thing. Is this targeting a significant problem? I think it is
:11:37. > :11:40.because the numbers are so large. The sort of things I have been told
:11:41. > :11:46.from people working in the field is that we do have people with chaotic
:11:47. > :11:51.lifestyles, the agencies are trying to get them support, they are trying
:11:52. > :11:58.to get their lives sorted in some way, to get some sort of order, and
:11:59. > :12:02.what is happening is that these are the people who are most likely to be
:12:03. > :12:09.sanctioned. They are most likely not to turn up for an interview. When
:12:10. > :12:14.they have no money as well, it makes things doubly difficult and
:12:15. > :12:22.undermines the efforts of the welfare state to rehabilitate these
:12:23. > :12:23.people. Thank you for joining us. The Scottish parliament and Welsh
:12:24. > :12:27.assembly were conceived within weeks of each other, but as the
:12:28. > :12:32.parliaments have grown up, the ties between them have in loose. Today
:12:33. > :12:37.the Welsh First Minister was in Scotland to make his contribution to
:12:38. > :12:43.the independence debate and his fellow first minister here will not
:12:44. > :12:46.agree with what he had to say. It's no secret that Colin Jones was
:12:47. > :12:52.initially reluctant to travel north and in the prounion drum at least
:12:53. > :12:58.until Westminster gave its response to the silk commission. That came on
:12:59. > :13:03.Monday when the Treasury set up details of borrowing powers. Having
:13:04. > :13:07.got to much what he wanted, the Welsh First Minister has wasted no
:13:08. > :13:14.time in honouring his side of the deal. The subtext of his speech
:13:15. > :13:18.tonight was clear. If you stay inside the union, you can still cut
:13:19. > :13:25.a decent deal with Westminster. But the SNP says we have heard it all
:13:26. > :13:30.before. We will have people who say vote no, it's better for you, you
:13:31. > :13:34.will get that, Scotland has been here before, we were here in 1979
:13:35. > :13:40.when they are all those promises which came to naught. People who
:13:41. > :13:44.live here, people who work here, will take their own decision.
:13:45. > :13:49."Better Together" will be hoping Colin Jones 's visit will inject
:13:50. > :13:54.positivity into the prounion campaign. Whether that is how his
:13:55. > :14:02.message is received is a different matter. I am joined now by the First
:14:03. > :14:07.Minister of Wales, Colin Jones. The sceptics say you only hear
:14:08. > :14:11.campaigning for Scotland to stay part of the UK because the Coalition
:14:12. > :14:20.Government has given you a shed load of new powers. I am not an agent for
:14:21. > :14:26.the UK Government. I am here to put the Welsh view in terms of what's
:14:27. > :14:30.happening in Scotland. The allegation is in that you are an
:14:31. > :14:33.agent of the government, it is that you said publicly that he would find
:14:34. > :14:40.it difficult to campaign for the union unless you got the new powers
:14:41. > :14:44.for Wales. And having got them, your side of the deal is you are here.
:14:45. > :14:49.The timing is suggestive, you got the new powers on Wednesday and it's
:14:50. > :14:53.Wednesday! You are right, what I said was I wanted to be able to go
:14:54. > :14:59.to Scotland and show people that evolution delivered. They have done
:15:00. > :15:02.that, I have got the package that the people of Wales wanted from the
:15:03. > :15:05.UK Government, and I think it's a good example to show that
:15:06. > :15:10.independence isn't needed, because even when you have got governments
:15:11. > :15:15.of different political views in Cardiff and London, it still
:15:16. > :15:19.possible for the devolution settlement to be flexible enough.
:15:20. > :15:26.What if they haven't given you that, would you not be here? It
:15:27. > :15:31.would be difficult. You say, you come here to say devolution works
:15:32. > :15:36.and they had not to be the package, but they have done, that's the
:15:37. > :15:41.point. That illustrates the people of Wales and Scotland at devolution
:15:42. > :15:49.can work and there is no need for independent in order to satisfy the
:15:50. > :15:52.aspirations of Wales and Scotland. This attitude of conditional
:15:53. > :15:56.enthusiasm for the United Kingdom is rather odd, coming from a Labour
:15:57. > :16:00.politician. She might expect nationalists, whether biking route
:16:01. > :16:06.or the SNP, to play that kind of game, but I would think you were in
:16:07. > :16:14.favour of the UK irrespective of what you got. You make it sound as
:16:15. > :16:19.if the alternative was I would come here and campaign for independence,
:16:20. > :16:22.that was never the case. I needed to have the tools in my pocket to make
:16:23. > :16:28.sure I was effective in campaigning for the union, and in fairness, the
:16:29. > :16:36.tools have been delivered. The SNP say the changes which you want, or
:16:37. > :16:42.might consider, pressing in the funding formula for devolved
:16:43. > :16:49.countries, would be that Scotland 's but it could be cut. Is this
:16:50. > :16:52.something you are pressing for? What we want is fair funding across the
:16:53. > :16:57.whole of the UK. We know Wales is underfunded. This is not targeting
:16:58. > :17:04.Scotland. It's a curious argument for the SNP to use to say, on the
:17:05. > :17:08.one hand we benefit by ?4 billion from our membership of the UK and
:17:09. > :17:12.then say, what we want is independence. These things don't
:17:13. > :17:15.seem to run together. Clearly there is a feeling in Wales that you don't
:17:16. > :17:21.get a good deal, what is it exactly... I think the idea of
:17:22. > :17:25.cutting the Scottish but it came from a report which the Welsh
:17:26. > :17:32.parliament committed, what are you arguing for? -- the Scottish budget.
:17:33. > :17:36.We know we are down in terms of our funding because that's the way the
:17:37. > :17:41.formula operates at the moment. We have gone a little way towards
:17:42. > :17:46.addressing that by introducing the Barnett floor, which means
:17:47. > :17:49.convergent and spending in Wales and England. , that was supported by the
:17:50. > :17:55.Scottish Government. From our point of view, we are keen to see a fair
:17:56. > :18:03.funding formula across the whole UK. So you do want the Barnett formula
:18:04. > :18:07.replaced with someone else? It will happen in time, but what's important
:18:08. > :18:13.is when it does, there is agreement across the UK, it's not imposed by
:18:14. > :18:21.the Treasury in London. That is the best way forward. To get an agreed
:18:22. > :18:27.deal. In your speech, you talked about the SNP 's idea of a currency
:18:28. > :18:30.union with what remains of the UK. You make the point strongly that
:18:31. > :18:34.while it's up to Scotland to decide whether to become independent, it's
:18:35. > :18:39.up to you and others in the UK to decide whether to have a currency
:18:40. > :18:45.union. What is your view on that? You appear to be saying, like George
:18:46. > :18:51.Osborne, that you don't think it's a good idea. If an independent nation
:18:52. > :18:54.wants to join a currency union, it is a matter for those inside the
:18:55. > :18:59.currency union. If you have one, how does it work? You either have an
:19:00. > :19:03.independent central wake, so independence takes you nowhere, or
:19:04. > :19:08.you have a scenario where different governments have two agreed to take
:19:09. > :19:15.action at different times, that just needs to -- leads to dithering. In
:19:16. > :19:20.2011 there was decision needed within hours to save banks. That
:19:21. > :19:27.would affect us in Wales as it would affect England and Northern Ireland
:19:28. > :19:33.as Wales -- as well. So we would need the agreement of what was left
:19:34. > :19:38.of the UK. Can I just ask you a yes or no question -- the new income tax
:19:39. > :19:42.powers that you have been given as part of this deal would only be
:19:43. > :19:47.possible after a referendum. Can you call a referendum? What they are
:19:48. > :19:52.saying to us is the mechanism would be in place that if there is a vote
:19:53. > :19:57.of assembly members and in Parliament then a referendum could
:19:58. > :19:59.be held. So that's what we are expecting to do. Thanks for joining
:20:00. > :20:23.us. I look at the papers: that's all we have time for. I am
:20:24. > :20:38.back tomorrow. Some of the show is making the
:20:39. > :20:47.dusting of snow to take us into the morning. -- showers. It will stay
:20:48. > :20:50.dry and bright throughout much of the day, some parts of South-East
:20:51. > :20:57.Scotland and North East England will continue to cease showers reading in
:20:58. > :21:04.on the scroll north-easterly winds. Another strong wind in East Anglia,
:21:05. > :21:08.making it feel especially cold. Out towards the West, the showers are
:21:09. > :21:11.few and far between. Many will have a dry and bright afternoon with good
:21:12. > :21:18.spells of sunshine. Not especially warm out there. From Northern
:21:19. > :21:20.Ireland, compared with the conditions we saw today and in
:21:21. > :21:26.western Scotland, the winds much lighter. Good spells of sunshine
:21:27. > :21:37.here, but temperatures not particularly warm.