:00:08. > :00:12.Has the White Paper raised more questions than it has answered? And
:00:13. > :00:28.where is the alternative blueprint? Good evening. It is the day after
:00:29. > :00:31.the big launch. The dust has settled, the media crews have
:00:32. > :00:34.decamped from Holyrood and the truly dedicated have been trawling through
:00:35. > :00:37.the small print of White Paper. So, on Newsnight Scotland this evening,
:00:38. > :00:41.we're giving you a special offer. You're getting three for the price
:00:42. > :00:49.of one. Gordon, Glenn and I will be asking the questions you want the
:00:50. > :00:51.answers to. And, on the spot, please welcome the Scottish Finance
:00:52. > :00:59.Minister, John Swinney, and the Scottish Labour Leader, Johann
:01:00. > :01:04.Lamont. Jackie has the first question.
:01:05. > :01:19.We have this. Where is your 670-page tome chocked full of ideas and
:01:20. > :01:24.vision? This document is two separate things. It claims to be the
:01:25. > :01:29.prospectus to get as an independent Scotland but also says what the SNP
:01:30. > :01:35.would do in power. That is a manifesto. I think what we do need
:01:36. > :01:40.to focus on is the big decision that people in Scotland had to make next
:01:41. > :01:46.year. Are we better together and stronger as United Kingdom and what
:01:47. > :01:52.are the benefits of separating off? This document does not answer some
:01:53. > :02:00.of the fundamental questions. For about a year now, every time I
:02:01. > :02:06.talked to SNP politicians and they get stuck with something, they say,
:02:07. > :02:12.wait for the White Paper. It has become apparent that, within a day,
:02:13. > :02:16.all the answers are not there but in a whole series of questions, not
:02:17. > :02:20.just currency but energy and the rest of it, the answers cannot be
:02:21. > :02:24.there because they depend on the goodwill of others. Your immediate
:02:25. > :02:31.ambition with the White Paper has failed, hasn't it? We wanted to set
:02:32. > :02:35.out the mechanics and process by which Scotland would become an
:02:36. > :02:42.independent country. We have set that out in comprehensive detail. Of
:02:43. > :02:45.equal importance, what we were aiming to do with this white paper
:02:46. > :02:50.was to give people a picture of what we could do with the powers of
:02:51. > :02:54.independence to make Scotland more prosperous and fairer. What the
:02:55. > :02:59.document is crammed full of is ideas of how we can use the powers and
:03:00. > :03:03.responsibilities of independence to make Scotland a truly successful
:03:04. > :03:09.society. That is what we look forward to debating in the next few
:03:10. > :03:13.months. The paper does not tell us how we will get independence. It
:03:14. > :03:19.does not give certainty that you claimed. You are trying to change
:03:20. > :03:24.the referendum into some kind of election, that appears under
:03:25. > :03:33.costed. They are things we would be looking at in an election period
:03:34. > :03:38.anyway. We go through all the difficult issues, setting out, as
:03:39. > :03:45.far as we possibly can do, in the absence of negotiations with the
:03:46. > :03:52.United Kingdom government, about how we can resolve and give clarity
:03:53. > :03:55.about some of these issues. It assures us we are going to still be
:03:56. > :04:00.Scotland and the weights and measures will be the same. Despite
:04:01. > :04:04.the fact we have argued that the currency would be the pound, we know
:04:05. > :04:14.perfectly well it is not your gift to make that happen. We are going to
:04:15. > :04:21.break this into bite sized chunks. Let's start with one of the issues -
:04:22. > :04:25.the issue of EU membership. That is a developing story tonight with an
:04:26. > :04:33.intervention from the Prime Minister of Spain. He said it would need to
:04:34. > :04:38.be approved by all 28 member states. What we have set out in the document
:04:39. > :04:43.is the process and manner by which Scotland would move to being within
:04:44. > :04:48.the European Union as an independent state. We have set that out under
:04:49. > :04:58.the principle of continuity effects which should enable us to argue for
:04:59. > :05:03.an amendment to the treaty. You accept that such an amendment would
:05:04. > :05:15.need to be approved by parliament is in all 28 member states. Used to say
:05:16. > :05:20.it was automatic. Various the requirement for that treaty
:05:21. > :05:27.amendment to be agreed by all the member states. What would be the
:05:28. > :05:32.dynamics and circumstances of that? Scotland is already a participant in
:05:33. > :05:37.the European Union. What we are arguing for is the ability to move
:05:38. > :05:49.from the status of membership as part of the United Kingdom to being
:05:50. > :05:55.a member state in our own right. Surely if you accept... Scotland is
:05:56. > :06:01.currently a member of the European Union. We are not an aspiring or
:06:02. > :06:05.membership applicant. We are in the European Union by virtue of the
:06:06. > :06:14.United Kingdom. Our citizens are from the European Union. It is said
:06:15. > :06:24.that if part of a member state becomes independent, it would
:06:25. > :06:27.cannot be the case. We are members of the European Union. As you have
:06:28. > :06:34.just said, when Scotland votes for independence in the yes vote in
:06:35. > :06:39.September 2014, we still remain in the European Union and independence
:06:40. > :06:42.does not happen until 2016. We are doing this from within the European
:06:43. > :06:54.Union as part of our mothership of the European Union. This is not a
:06:55. > :06:57.commentator. -- our membership. I presume you have to contemplate the
:06:58. > :07:06.possibility that somebody might disagree, otherwise it is automatic.
:07:07. > :07:10.These are separate things. In my be self interest of each individual
:07:11. > :07:17.country but that is for them to decide whether it is in the
:07:18. > :07:23.interests or not. Let's explain the reasons why Scotland should be able
:07:24. > :07:28.to sustain that. There is a fundamental problem. What you are
:07:29. > :07:32.now telling us is that when it comes to Scotland's entry in the European
:07:33. > :07:36.Union, we should not believe the Prime Minister of Spain, we should
:07:37. > :07:42.not believe the president of the European Union. Just as we should
:07:43. > :07:49.not believe George Osborne, the Chancellor of the Exchequer about
:07:50. > :07:53.currency or David Cameron. They were engaging in political gesturing. For
:07:54. > :07:59.people who are confused trying to make up their minds, is there anyone
:08:00. > :08:04.they should not believe who is not a member of the SNP Cabinet? The
:08:05. > :08:07.rational reasons why Scotland should be able to sustain membership of the
:08:08. > :08:12.European Union through the transition I have talked about is
:08:13. > :08:17.plain and simple. We have shared interests with the European Union.
:08:18. > :08:29.The European Union invites members in context expands, grows and tries
:08:30. > :08:35.to evolve. A rational explanation is not important. He has expressed no
:08:36. > :08:37.opinion about whether he would support or otherwise Scotland's
:08:38. > :08:43.membership of the European Union. We have acquired rights as a member of
:08:44. > :08:48.the European Union, which we have today, and under the principle of
:08:49. > :08:54.continuity effects, seek an amendment to the treaty and be able
:08:55. > :09:02.to sustain that membership. Your argument is automatic. We would hear
:09:03. > :09:08.one person suggesting he may not use the vote in that way. It is
:09:09. > :09:13.difficult to say rationally we might end up in such and such a place. You
:09:14. > :09:21.have said it is certain and there is no doubt about it. It would now
:09:22. > :09:25.appear that is assertion and not documented fact. We may well come
:09:26. > :09:32.back to the issue of Europe but let's go to one headline - a" use in
:09:33. > :09:37.free childcare. Would you agree with this? We're more than happy to work
:09:38. > :09:47.with the Scottish Government on this. Work with is one thing. Is it
:09:48. > :09:54.a policy as it stands? Will it make a difference? Can we afford it? What
:09:55. > :09:59.would you do to make that happen? It is self-evident and true. There are
:10:00. > :10:05.folk in work. There are grannies and grandads, more than any other part
:10:06. > :10:12.of the United Kingdom, to allow mums and dads to go out to work. If they
:10:13. > :10:16.were able to get childcare, they would work. One successful thing we
:10:17. > :10:24.did when we were in power was to put together childcare and people who
:10:25. > :10:32.wanted to work. The theory is fine. John Swinney said he was going to do
:10:33. > :10:41.that in 2007. I certainly recognise we can work together on that. It is
:10:42. > :10:46.not conditional on constitutional arrangements. You agree with it in
:10:47. > :10:52.principle. U2 something you said you would bring some of it in. -- it is
:10:53. > :11:04.something you said. Can we look forward to this kind of policy in
:11:05. > :11:12.the Labour Party manifesto? Psion macro it goes absolutely with the
:11:13. > :11:17.grain of my politics. People do need support of childcare. For people who
:11:18. > :11:21.are working and are paying a lot for childcare or using grannies and
:11:22. > :11:26.extended families to do that, this would make a difference to them. It
:11:27. > :11:32.is hard to make sure you have the funding to make that happen. I am
:11:33. > :11:38.more than happy to work with John on that. Eye-catching, headlining. Alex
:11:39. > :11:43.Salmond himself said, of everything that is in this tome, that is what
:11:44. > :11:52.he is most proud of. Who is eligible for free childcare? We are hoping
:11:53. > :12:02.that every child from the age of one, every child with have childcare
:12:03. > :12:06.provided. 140 hours per year, which would enable more and more women
:12:07. > :12:16.within the workplace to get back into the workplace and contribute.
:12:17. > :12:20.Would I have to pay it? That service would be provided by the state. What
:12:21. > :12:24.is interesting is that over the course of the last six years, we
:12:25. > :12:29.have improved and strengthen the amount of childcare that is
:12:30. > :12:34.available in Scotland. There were 412 hours. It has been put up to
:12:35. > :12:37.475. What joy in Scotland. There were 412 hours. It has been put up
:12:38. > :12:48.to 475. What Joanne Lamont is saying, it is about the increased
:12:49. > :12:55.taking place. With my discussions with the Labour Party, not once have
:12:56. > :12:59.they talked about childcare. What we have done today and what we did
:13:00. > :13:04.yesterday in the document is sent a very ambitious agenda as to how we
:13:05. > :13:15.can really engage a whole range of different people, particularly women
:13:16. > :13:20.into the Labour market. What if I decide to take advantage of it but I
:13:21. > :13:27.do not feel like going out to work? Is there anything to stop me doing
:13:28. > :13:35.that? Nothing. The clear incentive is to move the obstacle of the
:13:36. > :13:38.absence of childcare or the and affordability of childcare to enable
:13:39. > :13:44.people to go out into the labour market. If you need tax receipts to
:13:45. > :13:49.pay for it and if enough people say, thank you very much, I will take
:13:50. > :13:57.free childcare and go shopping, then it is not going to add up. Those who
:13:58. > :13:59.could benefit from it may be in work and paying tax but they have
:14:00. > :14:10.grannies or whoever managing the childcare. You would have to put the
:14:11. > :14:16.money in first. How would it all start otherwise? There is an issue
:14:17. > :14:22.also. I argued that what we should be doing is coming together to
:14:23. > :14:28.understand what is the demand for childcare. There is no nursery care.
:14:29. > :14:34.Those working mums, it is out of school care and holiday times. How
:14:35. > :14:42.do you manage premises and so on? My point is, I would not necessarily
:14:43. > :14:43.move to the whole ambition but it is not necessary to change the
:14:44. > :14:53.constitution of the country. The issue then comes down to
:14:54. > :14:56.affordability. Let's explore that issue. I am frequently involved in
:14:57. > :15:00.discussions where I have to balance the budget, I must provide the
:15:01. > :15:04.resources to meet all the costs of public services, and I get met with
:15:05. > :15:07.demands for extra public services, extra commitments from other
:15:08. > :15:11.political parties, including the Labour Party, with no idea as to
:15:12. > :15:15.where the money can come from. My point about where we have reached
:15:16. > :15:17.the issue of childcare is, if we want to deliver the type of
:15:18. > :15:21.transformative contribution of childcare, which will be a cost of
:15:22. > :15:26.something in excess of five to ?600 million, which we simply cannot find
:15:27. > :15:30.within the budget we have available today, we have to do use the levers
:15:31. > :15:34.and the opportunities of independence to do something about
:15:35. > :15:37.that. We have been clear about this in the White Paper. We would reduce
:15:38. > :15:42.the amount of expenditure that we spend on defence, we don't want
:15:43. > :15:46.weapons of mass destruction on the Clyde, we don't want to pay for
:15:47. > :15:49.them, and we want to devote the resources available for that to
:15:50. > :15:52.something much more productive in our economy, the provision of
:15:53. > :15:58.childcare in a passion I have set out. That is about getting our
:15:59. > :16:05.priorities right, and I hope that Joe Ham might accept that we use
:16:06. > :16:08.money wisely and effectively, but those purposes are not as a ball
:16:09. > :16:12.weapons of mass attraction. The money has been spent half a dozen
:16:13. > :16:18.times, but if it matters to the economy, it matters now. It is not
:16:19. > :16:23.just about tax receipts. What other priorities? Let me finish. If I am
:16:24. > :16:26.paying for a private nursery, and provision comes in to allow me to
:16:27. > :16:33.get access very small contributed their work contribute a rear mount,
:16:34. > :16:37.a better level of childcare, that will stimulate the economy now. We
:16:38. > :16:44.don't have to rid wait for tax receipts. My priority is, that will
:16:45. > :16:49.lose the answer. Pre-2011, it wasn't. In 2007 to 2011, he went to
:16:50. > :16:57.individual parties and asked, what do you need to get me to vote? You
:16:58. > :17:02.secure the votes of the Tory party, who said that an SNP budget was the
:17:03. > :17:07.next best thing. Why can't we do it supportively? Why can't you and I
:17:08. > :17:10.worked together? Why have you turned it into a dividing line between us,
:17:11. > :17:18.rather than looking at the budget together and saying, where are the
:17:19. > :17:20.places we can find this? I think there were simpler want to know
:17:21. > :17:26.where the money should be coming from to do that. Johann Lamont, on a
:17:27. > :17:33.related issue, you made what is now a famous speech a while back where
:17:34. > :17:36.you talked about how Scotland can be a something for nothing society.
:17:37. > :17:40.Which bits of John Swinney's policies do you think I something
:17:41. > :17:45.for nothing society? Where you targeting his policy on tuition
:17:46. > :17:49.fees, for example, or his policy of free bus passes, or free
:17:50. > :17:53.prescription charges? I think the point I was making was that there is
:17:54. > :17:56.literally not something for nothing. If you spend something in
:17:57. > :18:02.one place, you can't spend it elsewhere. Exact to the point John
:18:03. > :18:08.Swinney has made just now. We have a contradiction. But he has all the
:18:09. > :18:12.policies, so what is your objection two my point is, he has a balanced
:18:13. > :18:16.budget, slogan, a policy, but the ground is not happening. We have
:18:17. > :18:20.every bus pass, but no buses. We have free predictions, and people
:18:21. > :18:23.can't get access to them. So which are you suggesting should be
:18:24. > :18:29.abolished? We have free personal care, and eight or nine minute
:18:30. > :18:32.visits. What I at actually thought would happen, because I know John
:18:33. > :18:36.agrees with me, because you said it privately, he has commissioned a
:18:37. > :18:39.lease to reports, and Campbell Christie said the same thing. In
:18:40. > :18:45.tough times, broader shoulders to carry the hardest burden. What are
:18:46. > :18:50.these tough shoulders? John says in public what the tough choices are.
:18:51. > :18:53.You haven't said anything you would get rid of that he supports. You'll
:18:54. > :19:00.agree you can look actually or example, someone who is in work at
:19:01. > :19:05.60 years of age, should they have a bus pass? Washer we do to make these
:19:06. > :19:09.things affordable? Know I don't. He has said in private pensions may not
:19:10. > :19:16.be available. He commissioned a lease to reports. He commissioned at
:19:17. > :19:19.least two reports, in relation to what we should do. The whole
:19:20. > :19:22.question of the gap in public services, we will not allowed to
:19:23. > :19:25.implement or even have a debate where we had a consensus. Everybody
:19:26. > :19:29.knows the slogan on its own is not enough will stop vision without
:19:30. > :19:32.action is daydreaming. That is a real problem with us. We are ending
:19:33. > :19:37.in every place with a debate appear. It is easy for me to just debate
:19:38. > :19:40.slogans with John, but every week and my surgeries, people are worried
:19:41. > :19:43.about children with learning disabilities, elderly parents in
:19:44. > :19:47.care homes, and politics has to be about more than that. I genuinely
:19:48. > :19:51.know that John cares about these things as much as I do. Why can we
:19:52. > :19:54.have a mature debate about what our priorities are in terms of
:19:55. > :20:02.spending? Obviously, you have a shared interest in prioritising
:20:03. > :20:05.childcare. Just to be clear on that, if you support the proposals to
:20:06. > :20:11.expand childcare, do you also support the idea that John Swinney
:20:12. > :20:14.has equal access for all to any additional free childcare? What I
:20:15. > :20:19.said is, it has to be affordable, access, and you can't just promise
:20:20. > :20:25.something and then in terms of the quality of the care, how you would
:20:26. > :20:30.roll it out. I would want, if children's organisations said, that
:20:31. > :20:33.we must look at after school care. Would be means tested would parents
:20:34. > :20:37.have equal access to it regardless of personal circumstances? If you
:20:38. > :20:40.look at these proposals as they come through, the easiest thing to say
:20:41. > :20:47.is, yes, make it accessible to everyone at any point. We need to
:20:48. > :20:50.make sure it is affordable. So a universal principle is not one that
:20:51. > :20:55.you automatically subscribed to? It is not one currently applies. John
:20:56. > :21:02.Swinney did say it would apply to childcare. After he has decided it
:21:03. > :21:05.is not the spending priority now. Would it be better in the short into
:21:06. > :21:09.her targeted childcare? I think it be. For example, you could look at
:21:10. > :21:17.targeting vulnerable to old and Soviet don't -- so on. We know also
:21:18. > :21:20.that people suffering from the cost of living crisis, people working,
:21:21. > :21:27.mums who are nurses, going out during the day, in order to manage
:21:28. > :21:30.their childcare. We don't make good the enemy of excellence here. What
:21:31. > :21:33.we say is, what can we do with the money we have? I recognise that
:21:34. > :21:37.childcare as an issue goes beyond the blue are out of work. It is very
:21:38. > :21:40.often people, for example, who are paying more in childcare costs than
:21:41. > :21:44.they pay on a mortgage. As look at it rationally and look at what we
:21:45. > :21:50.can do, and that is what we did when we were in power. I'm sure John
:21:51. > :21:54.Swinney would agree, extending it, you might want to extend it further.
:21:55. > :22:01.The problem with this is, it is all terribly vague. Johann is talking
:22:02. > :22:06.about the cast of living. We are possibly to council tax freeze which
:22:07. > :22:13.has frozen the council tax. It is underfunded. It is not. It is linked
:22:14. > :22:18.to inflation. ?70 million were every year to support the council tax
:22:19. > :22:19.freeze. What is that doing? It is protecting households that are
:22:20. > :22:24.struggling in the current environment. Johann can deliver
:22:25. > :22:27.speeches saying we want to end the council tax freeze, and has
:22:28. > :22:31.frontbencher saying things all over the place, and we must buy more
:22:32. > :22:33.money per childcare, and there is nothing specific that comes out of
:22:34. > :22:39.the Labour Party other than proposals. All this talk about
:22:40. > :22:42.taking the hard choices is just vacuous. We have had to take the
:22:43. > :22:45.hard choices to balance the books. I have had to deal with all the
:22:46. > :22:49.spending cuts from the UK Government, we happen to reduce the
:22:50. > :22:52.budget here, and we're done that in a responsible fashion to protect
:22:53. > :22:56.people are struggling financially and to protect public services. We
:22:57. > :23:03.don't get any specific funding for that. Beyond 2016, the less vague in
:23:04. > :23:07.more specific you are, except you don't actually costed. This looked
:23:08. > :23:11.like an Argos catalogue, but with no prices attached. They ask. We know
:23:12. > :23:14.aspiration isn't enough. We can have an IQ at about that. It needs to be
:23:15. > :23:28.in the real world, how will be costed unfunded. -- and funded. $1
:23:29. > :23:33.million the SNP are the greatest unionists in this debate. You could
:23:34. > :23:38.argue an independent Scotland should join Europe. That would put to bed a
:23:39. > :23:45.lot of problems with joining the European Union. The euro survived
:23:46. > :23:51.the global crisis that was supposed to destroy it. It is so important to
:23:52. > :23:55.you that we keep the pound that you handed the initiative to your
:23:56. > :24:01.political opponents who will consistently say, no, we do not
:24:02. > :24:05.agree to a currency union we think it is unlikely we would agree a
:24:06. > :24:10.currency union. It is as if you do not have the courage of your own
:24:11. > :24:14.convictions. You do not really believe that Scotland could take a
:24:15. > :24:24.different path on the really important stuff. The purpose of
:24:25. > :24:31.independence is to give Scotland and Scottish Parliament the ability to
:24:32. > :24:36.take decisions in terms of our economy. Let's just explore the
:24:37. > :24:40.issue of the currency and why it is right we should maintain sterling as
:24:41. > :24:44.the currency of independent Scotland. The principal reason for
:24:45. > :24:49.me is we have a significant amount of trade with companies south of the
:24:50. > :24:56.border and for companies south of the border back into Scotland. Why
:24:57. > :25:02.don't we have an independent currency? I want to make that
:25:03. > :25:07.process as efficient and effective as possible. There is a very easy
:25:08. > :25:16.way to do that and that is to vote no. Surely part of the point of
:25:17. > :25:20.independence is to get over difficulties. What she felt to open
:25:21. > :25:28.up is the opportunity to shake different economic decisions. --
:25:29. > :25:38.take different economic decisions. We could have taken decisions not to
:25:39. > :25:41.reduce capital expenditure. We could have invested instead in the
:25:42. > :25:48.construction industry in Scotland and building Scottish
:25:49. > :25:51.infrastructure. You can do that with an independent currency or as part
:25:52. > :25:59.of the Eurozone. These things are linked together. If you want to
:26:00. > :26:03.ensure you are operating in the most effective trading environment, the
:26:04. > :26:08.same currency makes the strongest argument for that. What you get with
:26:09. > :26:18.independence is the ability to shape decisions. Whether there is a
:26:19. > :26:23.currency union is up to the United Kingdom and not up to you. You have
:26:24. > :26:29.handed on a plate that argument, which will be made time and time
:26:30. > :26:32.against you. You do not have an argument. You say how rational it
:26:33. > :26:39.would be to have a currency union but it does not matter what you say.
:26:40. > :26:45.The Bank of England, it may be called the bank of England, but it
:26:46. > :26:50.is actually the bank of the United Kingdom. We have a stake in that
:26:51. > :26:55.bank. It is to operate on our behalf as part of the United Kingdom. It is
:26:56. > :26:59.part of the assets of the United Kingdom and we have a stake in that
:27:00. > :27:04.as an institution and an organisation and a currency. We need
:27:05. > :27:07.to get what is right in the interests of the people of Scotland
:27:08. > :27:17.out of our access to that particular asset. That is why we argued for
:27:18. > :27:23.that. It compels the United Kingdom to have a currency in Scotland. You
:27:24. > :27:29.have interviewed the Chancellor of the ecstatic and you have asked him
:27:30. > :27:37.to rule it out. -- the Chancellor of the exchequer. On every occasion, it
:27:38. > :27:41.has not been ruled out as a possibility. Car when Jones has said
:27:42. > :27:48.he will take an awful lot of persuading. Staying part of the
:27:49. > :27:55.United Kingdom, they would listen to his voice. It seems odd to me. You
:27:56. > :28:06.will have less control over monetary policy. Even if it is what you
:28:07. > :28:15.aspire to, you cannot deliver it. You must have a plan B. If Ed
:28:16. > :28:20.Miliband becomes Prime Minister in 2015, and so he is leading the
:28:21. > :28:26.negotiations after a yes vote, would you be advising him to offer some
:28:27. > :28:31.sort of currency union? If Ed Miliband is the Prime Minister, his
:28:32. > :28:36.first responsibility is to the people he represents. He would have
:28:37. > :28:45.to apply that test and it is quite a difficult test. He might ask, what
:28:46. > :28:51.should I do? Somebody in Scotland does not have an influence over
:28:52. > :28:56.that. He has stood aside in the interests of people. It is a kind of
:28:57. > :29:01.ludicrous position to be in. We have got to a place where we have two and
:29:02. > :29:06.treat the rest of the United Kingdom, which has basically done us
:29:07. > :29:12.down the last 300 years, be nice to us. That is why it does not make
:29:13. > :29:19.sense. We should not rule it out. His test must be, what are the
:29:20. > :29:23.interests of the people in the rest of the United Kingdom? You want to
:29:24. > :29:29.stay in the United Kingdom but it is a hard thing to take. Having said we
:29:30. > :29:35.would need to be liberated from the rest of the United Kingdom, we say,
:29:36. > :29:40.would you do us a favour and let us be part of the United Kingdom? I do
:29:41. > :29:47.not agree that it should be a separate currency. It makes logical
:29:48. > :29:54.sense. He cannot admit there is a plan B. If there needs to be, he
:29:55. > :30:01.knows how important that is. Ed Miliband would be representing the
:30:02. > :30:08.rest of the United Kingdom in 2015. He said after a yes vote. In 2015,
:30:09. > :30:12.he would be Prime Minister of the United Kingdom as these negotiations
:30:13. > :30:19.were going on. Wouldn't he had to take into account the interests of
:30:20. > :30:23.all the United Kingdom? In Scotland has voted to leave the United
:30:24. > :30:27.Kingdom, that is the choice of Scotland. It will be the jobs of
:30:28. > :30:34.those who are negotiating on behalf of Scotland to get as good a deal as
:30:35. > :30:39.possible. They do not need to take the interests of Scotland into
:30:40. > :30:43.account. I am glad that Scotland is inside the United Kingdom. I know
:30:44. > :30:49.that Ed Miliband will serve the interests of the whole of the United
:30:50. > :30:51.Kingdom. We will share risks and pool resources. The us dirty
:30:52. > :31:04.programme of the Tories is damaging. -- the austerity programme
:31:05. > :31:11.will stop we have had families right across the United Kingdom. I want to
:31:12. > :31:20.stop the Tory government being able to impose... The SNP existed when we
:31:21. > :31:30.were creating the welfare state. We are facing a bedroom tax. We have to
:31:31. > :31:37.put up with this. We are mitigating it to the full of our legal ability.
:31:38. > :31:47.I can assure you that. You could have supported that. Why can't you
:31:48. > :31:55.take the decision? Why on earth are we allowing the UK Government to cut
:31:56. > :31:59.our capital? It is your job to worry about the financial markets. When I
:32:00. > :32:04.spoke to Alex Salmond last night about whether a currency union would
:32:05. > :32:10.be permanent, he seemed to be on the one hand saying the SNP would enter
:32:11. > :32:21.as if it would be a permanent union but was careful to say what an SNP
:32:22. > :32:26.government could leave that. If you have a currency union you want, it
:32:27. > :32:31.would have to be permanent. You would have to convince the financial
:32:32. > :32:36.markets it was permanent, or it would be an open invitation to mark
:32:37. > :32:41.up the rates in Scotland with bonds and speculate on a possible break-up
:32:42. > :32:47.of the union. It is a once and for all choice. I think the currency
:32:48. > :32:55.union is a long-standing choice for Scotland. The point the First
:32:56. > :33:04.Minister was making... You mean we would have to enter into it. About
:33:05. > :33:11.not having a currency union, as soon as you get your currency, that is
:33:12. > :33:16.out of the window. There are political choices which could be
:33:17. > :33:22.exercised by people in Scotland after independence. Parliament would
:33:23. > :33:28.be elected. It would be free to make the decisions it thinks appropriate.
:33:29. > :33:33.From our point of view, our proposition is it is a long-term
:33:34. > :33:37.commitment to sterling. At the heart of the whole White Paper is the
:33:38. > :33:41.notion of choice of the people of Scotland being able to decide on
:33:42. > :33:49.their own priorities. It is important for a parliament to decide
:33:50. > :33:59.about welfare. Not just resign ourselves to the fact the UK
:34:00. > :34:03.Government can impose a bedroom tax. What if the markets got a smidgen of
:34:04. > :34:10.a hint that Scotland was not serious? You know what would
:34:11. > :34:14.happen. The point to the First Minister makes in his introduction
:34:15. > :34:17.in the White Paper, which he was talking about tonight, is to
:34:18. > :34:26.acknowledge the fact we would live in a democracy. I think we should
:34:27. > :34:31.try to change the pace for a few minutes and try and be good and ask
:34:32. > :34:36.short questions if you could give us short, brief and to the point
:34:37. > :34:41.answers. Hopefully we'll get a number of questions in our quickfire
:34:42. > :34:46.round. Do you support the SNP proposal to bring the Royal mail
:34:47. > :34:54.back into public ownership in the event of independence? I had an
:34:55. > :34:58.uncle who was a postman. I understand the pressure that would
:34:59. > :35:01.put on the Royal mail. My instinct is to say we would want it back in
:35:02. > :35:08.public but we need to be able to deliver on that commitment. And
:35:09. > :35:18.independence Scotland would have powers over drugs calcification.
:35:19. > :35:27.Would you legalise cannabis? -- classification. No. I would like to
:35:28. > :35:35.have Trident removed. I want a serious engagement about nuclear
:35:36. > :35:40.weapons. David Cameron said he would prevent new migrants from claiming
:35:41. > :35:46.out of work benefits for up to three months. Would you like to match that
:35:47. > :35:54.policy? I would need to know more detail about what he is proposing. I
:35:55. > :35:58.think we have to look at the consequences, sometimes, in terms of
:35:59. > :36:05.what Ed Miliband has said where people are encouraged to undercut
:36:06. > :36:11.people who work in this country. Automatic rights to claim benefits,
:36:12. > :36:18.yes or no? I would need to look into it. We need to allow people into the
:36:19. > :36:24.country who could make an economic contribution to our country. It is
:36:25. > :36:29.about ensuring we get into our labour market people who could make
:36:30. > :36:33.a valuable economic contribution to Scotland. The debate the Prime
:36:34. > :36:39.Minister is engaging in and I see Ed Miliband playing along with as well
:36:40. > :36:43.is a slogan I is debate about immigration. We need a good and hard
:36:44. > :36:52.look about maintaining these talented people. What would be
:36:53. > :36:56.better and independent Scotland run by a Labour government or being part
:36:57. > :37:04.of Britain and run by a Conservative government? We would have a Scottish
:37:05. > :37:09.parliament. I would fight with every bit of me to deliver a Labour
:37:10. > :37:13.government in 2016. Should we be in the United Kingdom, we would look
:37:14. > :37:20.for support in the Scottish Parliament elections as well. You
:37:21. > :37:26.have said you want to see workers on the boards of companies. We would
:37:27. > :37:31.discuss this with industry. We have seen a number of examples in our
:37:32. > :37:34.country. We have good, strong employee participation in the
:37:35. > :37:42.management of companies which has really helped those companies. We
:37:43. > :37:49.need to take that a stage further. How would you answer that question?
:37:50. > :37:53.Very often workers have more of a feel of industry than shareholders.
:37:54. > :37:56.The best example is in the shipbuilding industry. You saw the
:37:57. > :38:01.company and workforce coming together to try to secure jobs in
:38:02. > :38:05.the Clyde. I would not make it compulsory. We would consult broadly
:38:06. > :38:10.on that. It is not something that any board should be frightened of.
:38:11. > :38:12.It would strengthen decisions they make because they would be
:38:13. > :38:18.representing it workforce with a long-term commitment.
:38:19. > :38:25.We will now return to issues in greater depth again. Johann, when as
:38:26. > :38:33.Labour's commission and devolved powers going to report? It is in the
:38:34. > :38:38.spring. I will give you a backstop date, which is our party conference
:38:39. > :38:41.in March. I am very clear that we had an interim report, we are now
:38:42. > :38:46.consulting on that, we had interest Inc evidence, and anyone who has
:38:47. > :38:50.taken the time to look at our interim report would respond in
:38:51. > :38:53.terms of how they see devolution being strengthened. One would
:38:54. > :38:59.presume this is a priority be used to get this reporter? One of the
:39:00. > :39:02.first things that as leader was announced the devolution commission
:39:03. > :39:06.would take place. And it took seven months for the first meeting. I am
:39:07. > :39:09.very clear now that we want to this information for people ahead of the
:39:10. > :39:14.decision, we want to do it in the spring, and the Test of what we do
:39:15. > :39:17.will not be in order to get it out there, but to make sure it is a
:39:18. > :39:23.strong contribution to the debate about how we make devolution work
:39:24. > :39:28.inside the United Kingdom. You said you were minded to fully devolving
:39:29. > :39:32.from tax. I wonder whether between now and the referendum, you will be
:39:33. > :39:38.able to reach some sort of agreement with the other parties in Better
:39:39. > :39:44.Together to come up with a joint offer that people will be able to
:39:45. > :39:48.pursue in the event of a no vote? I think where we come together is in
:39:49. > :39:52.our desire to make sure the devolution works, and there are a
:39:53. > :39:54.number of different options. I would never turn away from agreeing with
:39:55. > :39:58.people and strengthening our position, but as I said, we have a
:39:59. > :40:02.distinct set of proposals we are bringing forward. One thing I am
:40:03. > :40:06.keen to look at, and it follows from the agenda of the islands, local
:40:07. > :40:09.authorities, how you devolve power down out of the Scottish parliament
:40:10. > :40:13.into local communities. If you want to do that and the Liberal Democrats
:40:14. > :40:17.want to, and the Conservatives are looking at doing that, shouldn't you
:40:18. > :40:22.come together and reach some kind of common position in advance of the
:40:23. > :40:27.referendum so that people have a clear idea what happens if it goes
:40:28. > :40:30.ahead? I think of it as an honest agreement, yes, if it is a force
:40:31. > :40:34.want to make it look as we're unified no. It must be about being
:40:35. > :40:37.genuine and the offer we are making. We stood in the
:40:38. > :40:43.Constitutional Convention and work with other people to try to get the
:40:44. > :40:46.proposal I ahead of getting the parliament established in 1997. I
:40:47. > :40:49.would hope that people recognise there will be distinctive Labour
:40:50. > :40:53.messages around how we seek evolution working, and particularly
:40:54. > :40:59.for me, it is about taking power away from politicians, down into
:41:00. > :41:03.communities where people can make a decision. We know in island
:41:04. > :41:06.communities how important that is, and some of the urban communities I
:41:07. > :41:12.represent, how important that is too. On that, one of the thing that
:41:13. > :41:16.puzzles me about you, I said I was puzzled by John Swinney's commitment
:41:17. > :41:19.to currency union at all costs. What puzzles me about Labour's approach
:41:20. > :41:24.to this debate is that you are doing it entirely on John Swinney's
:41:25. > :41:29.ground. Labour is supposed to be a socialist party. It has a
:41:30. > :41:35.tradition, it would claim, of International is in, you have set
:41:36. > :41:39.the entire agenda rather than saying, as I am sure some people in
:41:40. > :41:43.Scotland would say, this debate is just a relevant the Big issues going
:41:44. > :41:47.on in the world. Why not say, here is our vision, this is what we want
:41:48. > :41:50.to lament in Britain, I will take part in independent debate, but we
:41:51. > :41:55.frankly think it is a relevant? I can understand the argument, but do
:41:56. > :41:58.not need that it is an SNP position. If you look at what they have done
:41:59. > :42:08.since taking control of the Scottish Parliament, power has been sucked up
:42:09. > :42:12.into the centre, and... Can I ask about the Labour Party? I want to
:42:13. > :42:16.expand the point. What I think is entirely consistent with my politics
:42:17. > :42:23.is to make decisions at the lowest level possible in the interests of
:42:24. > :42:28.communities. That is no vision to better what is in this. With
:42:29. > :42:33.respect, there are certain things I think should stay at Westminster,
:42:34. > :42:36.and I would argue that. There are some decisions whether in housing or
:42:37. > :42:40.whatever, that are better made at the local level. The success of the
:42:41. > :42:42.Housing Association movement, the cooperative movement, has been
:42:43. > :42:47.because they understood the people who are to live with the decisions
:42:48. > :42:52.are more likely to make the correct ones. It is in that frame that I
:42:53. > :42:59.argue around powers, not simply, this is the SNP ground. If you look
:43:00. > :43:03.at what they do, I want to see power down in our communities, where
:43:04. > :43:07.people with their talents and abilities are liberated to make
:43:08. > :43:10.decisions that will benefit them. John Swinney is looking increasingly
:43:11. > :43:13.frustrated. Yellow marker we have been around the house with this
:43:14. > :43:16.before. The Liberals and Conservatives and the commission
:43:17. > :43:19.after we became the minority government in 2007, and that was
:43:20. > :43:22.meant to be a stock take a devolution to give the parliament
:43:23. > :43:28.all the powers are required. It reported, we got able whisper of
:43:29. > :43:30.extra powers. Now, Johann is that it again, suggesting there are more
:43:31. > :43:35.powers around the corner and all this. Yellow matter you don't
:43:36. > :43:41.describe as a whimper when you are exercising them. As for power being
:43:42. > :43:53.exercised at local levels in all this, to macro has been part of
:43:54. > :43:57.administration... Before the Thatcher period, as a young woman, I
:43:58. > :44:02.thought everything should be done at a British level. That is my vision
:44:03. > :44:06.of the world. As a schoolteacher, I stood in a classroom and watched
:44:07. > :44:10.children and the hope disappearing from their faces. But I also knew
:44:11. > :44:13.there were children in Newcastle, and Cardiff, who were experiencing
:44:14. > :44:18.the same thing. Thatcher attack vulnerable people. What I understood
:44:19. > :44:23.then, the lesson I learned, if you bring power closer to vulnerable
:44:24. > :44:26.people, if you bring power closer to people, you can make a difference.
:44:27. > :44:30.At the balance between the two. It is possible to have decisions of the
:44:31. > :44:35.UK level, or a Scottish level, but what John does not understand, we
:44:36. > :44:39.should allow liberation of decisions at a local level. We have done that
:44:40. > :44:44.with our local government plans. Know you haven't. What Johann is
:44:45. > :44:48.doing, that rate at the nation are about the evils of Thatcherism, she
:44:49. > :44:51.is allowing the evils of Thatcherism to be carried on by his successors
:44:52. > :44:57.who are applying a bedroom tax in Scotland, attacking the vulnerable,
:44:58. > :45:02.the most vulnerable in our society, and Johann is quite happy to leave
:45:03. > :45:06.the decisions. You have the opportunity to supporters. Against
:45:07. > :45:09.the wishes of the people of this country. If Johann was to follow
:45:10. > :45:13.their argument is a logical conclusions, she would want to have
:45:14. > :45:17.the power in Scotland to protect people from the type of policies
:45:18. > :45:20.that have been inflicted on Scotland. I'm not sure how cutting
:45:21. > :45:25.corporation tax by 3p in the pound is going to help that. John Swinney,
:45:26. > :45:29.you are warning of as you see it, the evils of Thatcherism and
:45:30. > :45:32.Conservative government, but this document also suggest that if there
:45:33. > :45:37.is a no vote, the Scottish budget would be cuts, that you wouldn't
:45:38. > :45:43.have any new powers transferred in those circumstances. Is this your
:45:44. > :45:45.version of Project Fear? I think it is an honest reflection of the
:45:46. > :45:48.likelihood of the circumstances we will face if there is a no vote. It
:45:49. > :45:54.is hardly positive campaign, though. It is two pages at a very
:45:55. > :45:57.substantial number. It illustrates to people the dangers of voting no
:45:58. > :46:00.on this referendum, because we have been around the houses of this
:46:01. > :46:04.before, we have promises of extra powers that have not materialised,
:46:05. > :46:08.and what is clear, and you can see from the all-party movement from the
:46:09. > :46:12.House of Commons, there is a growing consensus of opinion in the UK
:46:13. > :46:16.Parliament that if Scotland votes no in the referendum, and will be an
:46:17. > :46:24.assault on the funding formula spacing Scotland, and Carl Wynn
:46:25. > :46:26.Jones is a signed up member of the cup the Scottish public funding
:46:27. > :46:30.campaign. That would be hugely damaging to the interests of the
:46:31. > :46:36.people of Scotland. Johanne, you have 30 seconds. Time after we got
:46:37. > :46:38.this parliament because we we committed to it, and if you want to
:46:39. > :46:45.hear negative campaigning, you should listen to the Prime Minister
:46:46. > :46:48.delay, saying the rest of the country would be at their budgets.
:46:49. > :46:51.These are the same people to negotiate within the sterling zone.
:46:52. > :46:54.That is entirely irrational. They can't both be monsters and your
:46:55. > :46:58.friends. I don't recognise this characterisation of people across
:46:59. > :47:02.the United Kingdom and the hostility to Scotland. It drives the politics
:47:03. > :47:05.of the SNP. It is not the live reality people across Scotland. We
:47:06. > :47:11.see them genuinely as friends and neighbours. Let's agree to disagree.
:47:12. > :47:14.It will probably continue right up until a certain date next year. That
:47:15. > :47:18.is really all we have time for tonight. And Q2 both of you for
:47:19. > :47:23.joining us. From us, good night.