05/12/2013

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:00:00. > :00:00.man who suffered so much for freedom and justice, and the man who threw

:00:00. > :00:15.his dignity and through his triumph inspired millions.

:00:16. > :00:21.Welcome to Newsnight Scotland. We will recall the part Glasgow played

:00:22. > :00:26.in the Mandela story. Also tonight, the Chancellor sets out more of his

:00:27. > :00:29.plans. If an economic recovery is really under way, are his critics

:00:30. > :00:33.merely carping? People across the world have been

:00:34. > :00:37.paying tribute to Nelson Mandela after his death was announced

:00:38. > :00:40.tonight. Here in Scotland, he has been remembered as an inspirational

:00:41. > :00:45.figure in the fight against apartheid, and for his memorable

:00:46. > :00:48.visits to the country. He is also recognised for his diplomatic

:00:49. > :00:52.efforts that led to the Lockerbie trial. We have been looking back at

:00:53. > :00:56.his life. The man that the world has been

:00:57. > :01:07.waiting to see. His first public appearance in nearly three decades.

:01:08. > :01:13.# Nelson Mandela! Bring him back home to say waiter.

:01:14. > :01:16.Walking out of prison, the first steps to create the rainbow nation.

:01:17. > :01:22.Nelson Mandela spent most of his life trying to end white majority

:01:23. > :01:28.rule with many of his supporters miles away in Scotland. I became

:01:29. > :01:33.involved in the 1960s and we establish the Scottish wing of the

:01:34. > :01:43.anti-apartheid movement in the 1970s. This week to uprising sparked

:01:44. > :01:47.protests throughout the world. -- the Soweto uprising. We coordinated

:01:48. > :01:52.local groups of the anti-apartheid movement. It took off from there. At

:01:53. > :01:56.the time it was not fashionable to be associated with him, because he

:01:57. > :02:02.was widely regarded as an reported in the media as a terrorist. People

:02:03. > :02:07.did not want to associate with him. Despite that, the fight continued.

:02:08. > :02:11.In a brave move, Glasgow granted Mandela freedom of the city in 1981.

:02:12. > :02:24.Do you feel that will add weight to your critics who say he should never

:02:25. > :02:27.have been recommended for freedom of the city in the first place? We

:02:28. > :02:30.emphasise the place in which Nelson Mandela stands and the difficulty

:02:31. > :02:33.for him and his country. When I met Mandela in 1993, I was able to ask

:02:34. > :02:37.him if he knew what had happened in Glasgow. He does not get easy access

:02:38. > :02:40.to the news from Robben Island. But he confirmed that there was a

:02:41. > :02:43.grapevine and through the grapevine, they received these

:02:44. > :02:47.snippets of information and at the time he did know that he was awarded

:02:48. > :02:52.the freedom of the city of Glasgow. It kept him and his fellow prisoners

:02:53. > :02:59.going. And Glasgow kept up the pressure. In 1986, Royal exchange

:03:00. > :03:04.Square, home of the South African consulate, had a name change. It was

:03:05. > :03:11.the very first city that offered its freedom to Nelson Mandela. It is the

:03:12. > :03:20.only city where the Lord Provost galvanised 5000 mayors throughout

:03:21. > :03:26.the world to get him his freedom. Freedom which he got in 1990. Later

:03:27. > :03:31.he was able to recognise the freedom the city had bestowed on him.

:03:32. > :03:43.Freedom in the country of our birth was denied. A city 6000 miles away

:03:44. > :03:49.and as renowned as Glasgow refused to accept the legitimacy of the

:03:50. > :03:56.apartheid system. And declared us to be free. Then he became involved in

:03:57. > :04:01.Scottish affairs. He was extremely active in a lot of international

:04:02. > :04:06.matters, and over the Libya trial that was one example that he did

:04:07. > :04:13.help to press the Libyans to try and get the trial in our country and it

:04:14. > :04:19.only happened when he gave it a real post. In 2002, Mandela visited the

:04:20. > :04:26.Lockerbie bomber and explained why he got involved. There was a

:04:27. > :04:32.deadlock and die intervened because I was thinking firstly of the

:04:33. > :04:39.relatives of the victims. They must see justice done. But justice done

:04:40. > :04:43.according to the fundamental principles of the law. Mandela lived

:04:44. > :04:48.to see justice done in his own country and he ensured a lasting

:04:49. > :04:53.peace. A remarkable achievement for those who first backed him. It was

:04:54. > :04:57.always a concern when you are campaigning and he was in prison and

:04:58. > :05:04.so on. Would he live up to the legend that perhaps we had made him,

:05:05. > :05:08.but in fact of course he did. If anything he was greater than what he

:05:09. > :05:17.had been imagined. My colleague knew Nelson Mandela.

:05:18. > :05:22.Your first contact with him was when he voted in his first election. It

:05:23. > :05:27.is certainly the most memorable contact. That was in 1994. I was

:05:28. > :05:35.there to help cover the election. Why was based in Durban, probably

:05:36. > :05:39.one of the least favoured spots. -- I was based. Other reporters were

:05:40. > :05:43.sent to Johannesburg and Cape Town. Mandela decided at the last minute

:05:44. > :05:48.that rather than voting in one of the big cities, the better-known

:05:49. > :05:52.places, he would vote in a little place outside Durban as an act of

:05:53. > :06:00.reconciliation, because there was something close to a civil war going

:06:01. > :06:05.on with the Zulus and with his ANC. This was an act of conciliation. It

:06:06. > :06:08.meant that he voted in front of only a few hundred people and I was one

:06:09. > :06:12.of the journalists who happened to be close enough to be able to get

:06:13. > :06:16.there. Guided the commentary. I watched him stand on the Veranda of

:06:17. > :06:20.this primary School, lean forward and drop his ballot into the box,

:06:21. > :06:28.for the first time in his long life that he had ever voted. I saw him do

:06:29. > :06:34.that. You chased him down when Margaret Thatcher left office. When

:06:35. > :06:38.she stepped down, there was a call for reporters around the world to go

:06:39. > :06:42.and garner opinion of people who knew her. I wondered whether Nelson

:06:43. > :06:47.Mandela would be kind to her, because she did not really support

:06:48. > :06:50.him at all, in fact she regarded him as a terrorist. They found him in

:06:51. > :06:58.the hotel in Swaziland and asked if we could see him. He came down from

:06:59. > :07:02.his room after 20 minutes. He was a mischievous man. He came down with a

:07:03. > :07:11.twinkle in his eye, shook hands and said, when the BBC calls, everyone

:07:12. > :07:16.must come. When he came to Glasgow, US that -- you were there as well

:07:17. > :07:20.and he recognised you. Yes, he came in 1993 and he performed the Mandela

:07:21. > :07:24.shuffle on the stage when he received freedom of the city and the

:07:25. > :07:28.crowd loved it. I had been following him around South Africa, waiting at

:07:29. > :07:32.the end of runways, and he had seen me in the crowd quite a lot. I was

:07:33. > :07:36.astonished. I got out my microphone and welcomed him to Glasgow and he

:07:37. > :07:41.came over and said how nice it was to see me again. An astonishing

:07:42. > :07:45.memory for faces. Thank you. The rather more mundane use of the day

:07:46. > :07:48.is the Chancellor's Autumn Statement. The debate at Westminster

:07:49. > :07:53.may be focused on the general election, as well as how best to

:07:54. > :07:57.improve the economy, but in Scotland there is a more urgent electoral

:07:58. > :08:08.question. Anything a politician says will affect the referendum campaign.

:08:09. > :08:13.First, Huw Williams reports. Autumn Statement, the Chancellor of the

:08:14. > :08:16.extent. George Osborne told the story of a plan that is working but

:08:17. > :08:21.the job not yet done. Labour accused him of being out of touch and

:08:22. > :08:26.tinkering with the edges. The changes to council tax and benefits

:08:27. > :08:33.will be in force in Scotland when they come into force, while other

:08:34. > :08:37.things will not affect us directly but will affect the cash that comes

:08:38. > :08:41.to Scotland. Westminster says it is giving Holyrood an extra ?308

:08:42. > :08:45.million over the next two years for current spending and capital

:08:46. > :08:49.projects. It will mean making cuts of less than 0.2% at the time when

:08:50. > :08:53.most UK departments are having to save more than 1%. But the Scottish

:08:54. > :08:57.Government says that the announcement today does not make up

:08:58. > :09:03.for earlier cuts and shows the damaging consequences of staying in

:09:04. > :09:06.the United Kingdom. There will be almost ?11 million to set up a

:09:07. > :09:10.centre for innovation at the University of Edinburgh to honour

:09:11. > :09:16.Nobel prizewinner Professor Peter Higgs. We commit to building a new

:09:17. > :09:20.centre in his name at Edinburgh University because science is a

:09:21. > :09:24.personal priority. Nobody is willing to say what happens to that

:09:25. > :09:31.innovation centre if Scotland votes for independence by the time it is

:09:32. > :09:33.due to open in 2018. The department for business, innovation and skills

:09:34. > :09:39.said the UK Government is not contingency planning. There are also

:09:40. > :09:43.cheaper loans for Scottish councils and includes Glasgow and Clyde

:09:44. > :09:49.Valley in the city Deal initiative designed to boost building projects.

:09:50. > :09:53.And ?10 million promised for infrastructure building projects in

:09:54. > :09:59.Shetland. Duty on petrol will be frozen. A rise of tuppence per litre

:10:00. > :10:04.plan for next year will be scrapped. I congratulate the Chancellor on the

:10:05. > :10:08.fuel duty frees which will save motorists 20p per litre compared to

:10:09. > :10:13.Labour's plans. But will he confirm that the motorists on the islands in

:10:14. > :10:16.my constituency and promote parts of the mainland that they will save 25p

:10:17. > :10:22.per litre compared to what the Labour Party wants to charge them?

:10:23. > :10:25.He draws particular attention to the rural fuel rebate which is an

:10:26. > :10:28.important scheme we have introduced for the remote islands in Scotland

:10:29. > :10:33.and other parts of the United Kingdom. We would like the scheme to

:10:34. > :10:38.be extended more widely but we are constrained by European Union rules,

:10:39. > :10:45.which we are currently challenging. Am glad it is benefiting some of his

:10:46. > :10:50.constituents. The Chancellor said they should focus on deep new

:10:51. > :10:58.figures and the amount of money raised from North Sea oil and gas.

:10:59. > :11:03.Could you tell me what the office of budget responsible at it is

:11:04. > :11:06.forecasting in relation to North Sea oil revenues in next few years

:11:07. > :11:12.because some people believe it is an unlimited source of funding. They

:11:13. > :11:20.forecast today are for the whole of the UK. All in receipts are 3.5 and

:11:21. > :11:24.in pounds in 2016. This compares to the ?6.8 billion that the SNP

:11:25. > :11:28.Scottish government had been basing their premises upon in their claims

:11:29. > :11:35.for independence. That is twice as much as the independent assessment.

:11:36. > :11:37.It is another example of how they are not being straight with people

:11:38. > :11:45.about the facts around independence. Given this Chancellor

:11:46. > :11:49.has failed on every target he has set himself, how can we possibly

:11:50. > :11:56.trust him on anything he has said today, including oil forecast? So,

:11:57. > :12:02.how can the numbers be so vertically different. It depends on oil

:12:03. > :12:06.prices, gas prices, these are very uncertain. The office of budget

:12:07. > :12:11.responsible to have taken the view that they are likely to fall over

:12:12. > :12:19.the next five years whereas others think not. They think they will rise

:12:20. > :12:24.a bit. And then, we have the difference of production and capital

:12:25. > :12:32.investment is very high at the moment. Will it continue? All these

:12:33. > :12:37.determing taxable income and therefore, the tax receipts. That is

:12:38. > :12:40.the trouble with statistics, you can prove more less whatever you want

:12:41. > :12:44.to, depending on what you do and don't take into account and of

:12:45. > :12:51.course, there is politics at play here as well as economics. The

:12:52. > :12:57.Scottish Government's finance secretary spoke to us. She paid

:12:58. > :13:03.tribute first to Nelson Mandela. This is terribly sad news, this

:13:04. > :13:08.evening. All of our lives have been between transformed by the

:13:09. > :13:13.contribution Nelson Mandela made. The inspiration that he has been to

:13:14. > :13:18.create a society where every individual is treated equally and

:13:19. > :13:22.fairly has been so striking in all of our lives. I do think anybody who

:13:23. > :13:26.has lived through the years of his incarceration and his release and

:13:27. > :13:30.his leadership in the world can feel anything other than an enormous debt

:13:31. > :13:36.of gratitude for a life that has utterly transformed all of our

:13:37. > :13:42.lives. Now, the Chancellor's Autumn Statement, your budget has been

:13:43. > :13:50.increased, hasn't it? You must be delighted. It is always welcome to

:13:51. > :13:53.have additional resources at our disposal but we have to see them in

:13:54. > :13:57.the context of the changes made in the last five years and the Scottish

:13:58. > :14:01.budget has fallen by 10% in real terms. Yes, there are additional

:14:02. > :14:05.resources that have been allocated that it is against a backdrop of

:14:06. > :14:11.significant reduction in public expenditure. Which presumably you

:14:12. > :14:15.would support. I never understand what you are saying. As I understand

:14:16. > :14:20.it, the SNP are not like Labour, you are not saying the whole deficit

:14:21. > :14:24.strategy was wrong, so when you say this is terrible cos our budget has

:14:25. > :14:29.been cut, you are not seriously suggesting that George Osborne

:14:30. > :14:35.should not have cut public spending or somehow Scotland should have an

:14:36. > :14:40.exempt? we have had the reduction in capital spending, which of course is

:14:41. > :14:50.used to support the development... So you support the current cuts but

:14:51. > :14:56.not in capital spending? Economic cookies have been created I

:14:57. > :15:00.reduction is in capital expenditure. What you have never been clear on is

:15:01. > :15:06.that politically and intellectually, cute support -- you support in

:15:07. > :15:14.cutting the current budget even if you don't support cutting the

:15:15. > :15:18.capital budget. I don't think anyone can accuse me of being a supporter

:15:19. > :15:23.of George Osborne. Where he has got his strategy and received from

:15:24. > :15:27.has-been about reductions in capital expenditure and the invitations that

:15:28. > :15:29.purse served for the economic difficulties we have faced as a

:15:30. > :15:37.country. The Chancellor announced today that the level of ring,

:15:38. > :15:43.additional to what he had planned in 2010, has been about ?200 billion.

:15:44. > :15:49.That, essentially, is a number that is paying for the price of failure

:15:50. > :15:52.of his economic strategy. If he had invested more capital expenditure in

:15:53. > :15:56.2010, as we had argued he should do, we wouldn't have looked at all of

:15:57. > :16:02.the economic heartache we have had other country in the intervening few

:16:03. > :16:10.years. Aren't you glad the people he was turning his attention to today?

:16:11. > :16:15.Britain looks to be recovering quite strongly, and if you believe the OBE

:16:16. > :16:22.are, it will be to stable recovery and the point that George Osborne is

:16:23. > :16:27.making is that people like you have moaned and complained at every step

:16:28. > :16:31.of the way. You won't even stay -- say now, George Osborne was right to

:16:32. > :16:38.pursue a deficit reduction strategy. Yet, he says it is demonstrably

:16:39. > :16:43.working. George Osborne for the Mac strategy has not the economy back to

:16:44. > :16:50.its pre-recession levels. Of course it hasn't. It is of recovery. Just

:16:51. > :16:56.hear me out, Gordon. It has been delivered in Canada, Germany, Japan.

:16:57. > :17:00.It has not been delivered in the UK. It has not been delivered in Italy.

:17:01. > :17:03.These are examples and the fact that other countries have got their

:17:04. > :17:09.economies back into prerecession levels of act to video demonstrates

:17:10. > :17:17.that by taking the investment approach... No, it demonstrates that

:17:18. > :17:22.the debt was bigger. George Osborne wasn't response will for that. What

:17:23. > :17:28.he is not possible for is this a fix of our economic strategy. -- the

:17:29. > :17:36.success of our comic strategy. He has had to borrow more money than

:17:37. > :17:40.expected. So, do give him no credit at all? the point I am making is if

:17:41. > :17:45.his strategy had been successful, he would not have had to borrow an

:17:46. > :17:52.extra 200 DM pounds to deal with the cost of failure. If he had just

:17:53. > :17:54.changed the balance of his approach in 2010 and sustained the investment

:17:55. > :17:59.in capital expenditure, we would not have seen the decline in Echo man

:18:00. > :18:09.Mick -- economic opportunity that we have seen in Scotland. You said the

:18:10. > :18:14.things he said were irrelevant. no, I said there was room for the

:18:15. > :18:18.Chancellor. I can remember our interviews very clearly. I was

:18:19. > :18:22.arguing for an extra one billion pounds in capital expenditure for

:18:23. > :18:29.Scotland in a year. That is ten DM pounds proportionally accost the

:18:30. > :18:35.United Kingdom. We would have seen a significant improvement in economic

:18:36. > :18:40.conditions. The UK Government didn't want to join us tonight but I am

:18:41. > :18:47.joined by Christine Jardine in Edinburgh, and Ian Murray -- Ian

:18:48. > :18:50.Murray and Mark Macdonald. Starting with you, Ian Murray, I note you

:18:51. > :18:57.wanted to say the couple of words about Nelson Mandela. I wanted to

:18:58. > :19:02.save the world might has lost a statesman, and inspiration for young

:19:03. > :19:07.and old. Although we have lost him hopefully, his legacy will live on

:19:08. > :19:14.for generations to come and continue to inspire people over the next few

:19:15. > :19:19.days. I studied Mandela's struggle at school and it was a great

:19:20. > :19:24.inspiration to me. I think we, as politicians, or aspire to learn from

:19:25. > :19:28.the way he conducted himself, particularly when he was released

:19:29. > :19:32.from prison, the way he conducted himself to those who had committed a

:19:33. > :19:38.wrong against him. I think it showed the measure of the man. Obviously,

:19:39. > :19:44.he had been ill for some time. He is at peace now. Hopefully, his legacy

:19:45. > :19:51.will continue and live on even stronger. It is difficult to find

:19:52. > :19:55.words which meet the act trawl, the significance of the man. It is

:19:56. > :20:00.difficult to find a figure in any part of the world in modern history,

:20:01. > :20:09.in the 20th century, particularly, who's had such a positive influence

:20:10. > :20:13.but was also very forgiving, had a great deal of humility and was

:20:14. > :20:18.simply looked up to by everyone. Back to the Autumn Statement. Ian

:20:19. > :20:25.Murray, your problem is the same as the SNP, that to adapt a joke that

:20:26. > :20:30.Ed Balls me today, George Osborne hasn't just shut your fox, he has

:20:31. > :20:36.skinned it and made a third hat out of it to keep him warm in the

:20:37. > :20:44.winter. He has got the economy recovering and you said all the way

:20:45. > :20:48.through and he has proved you wrong. The Chancellor spoke for 45 minutes

:20:49. > :20:52.today. He didn't mention the cost of living crisis one. All his forecasts

:20:53. > :20:58.have been downgraded. The UK economy is growing at 2.5 cent over the

:20:59. > :21:04.course of the David... But the economy is recovering. You are not

:21:05. > :21:09.prepared to admit that you opposed every single measure he took and he

:21:10. > :21:15.can point to the figures and if we qualify them as they have been and

:21:16. > :21:21.says there are question marks over the sustainability of it, we are on

:21:22. > :21:26.our way to a sustainable recovery but you give him no credit for that

:21:27. > :21:31.whatsoever. I have read this in detail and it states inflation will

:21:32. > :21:34.still outstrip wages growth which means people will continue, over the

:21:35. > :21:43.course of the next few years, to get poorer. People are feeling the

:21:44. > :21:49.squeeze. Hang on, I don't want to get up down in this. That is

:21:50. > :21:56.actually incorrect. The table you are referring to refers to changes

:21:57. > :22:00.in the forecast, not the forecast themselves. If you look at page 84,

:22:01. > :22:05.you will find that the forecast for disposable income show real term

:22:06. > :22:15.increases. Do you think that is true, Christine Jardine? We have the

:22:16. > :22:20.fastest growing economy in the G-7. We are on the road to recovery and

:22:21. > :22:23.the Autumn Statement has some particular good news for Scotland,

:22:24. > :22:30.the 308 million pounds excess pending you have already mentioned.

:22:31. > :22:35.There will be invested elsewhere in the UK in childcare, free school

:22:36. > :22:37.meals, steps we would like to see in Scotland. It is entirely up to the

:22:38. > :22:42.Scottish Government how they prioritise spending this extra

:22:43. > :22:50.money. I accept that. But they have already said... But the bottom line

:22:51. > :22:54.is not only has John Swinney pointing out the economy is not

:22:55. > :22:59.where it was, in 2008, at the start of the crisis, when you look at

:23:00. > :23:02.these documents, they seem to be suggesting that even when the

:23:03. > :23:08.economy recovers, it will not grow as fast in the future as it was

:23:09. > :23:12.growing before 2008 because we have lost an entire segment of the

:23:13. > :23:16.economy and the government, which you are speaking for, has done

:23:17. > :23:24.nothing to address that. The government is now getting the, meet

:23:25. > :23:27.back on track. It has taken a long time and George Osborne said today,

:23:28. > :23:30.we are not completely recovered yet, there is still a long way to go

:23:31. > :23:38.but what we do know is we have the fastest growing economy in the G-7.

:23:39. > :23:49.There was investment in start-ups, we're going to be investing 45...

:23:50. > :23:53.Mark Macdonald, can you answer that, that this all sounds a bit pathetic

:23:54. > :23:57.comment you can change the subject and talk about living standards, but

:23:58. > :24:03.what George Osborne is able to say, people are not stupid, people, by

:24:04. > :24:08.and large, are prepared to accept a bit of pain if they think it is in

:24:09. > :24:13.the interests of the economy as a whole and he can say it is painful,

:24:14. > :24:17.but I said I was going to propose austerity in order to get economic

:24:18. > :24:20.recovery, I have found got economic recovery, and the SNP and Labour and

:24:21. > :24:28.my other opponents oppose me every step of the way. I think you are

:24:29. > :24:32.overlooking the fact that there are a lot of people for whom the idea

:24:33. > :24:39.that this has all worked splendidly will stick. Nobody is suggesting

:24:40. > :24:44.that. The basic point was you said and Labour said, his economic

:24:45. > :24:48.strategy was a disaster, that it would not make the economy recover,

:24:49. > :24:52.that it would not lead to economic growth and it has led to a comic

:24:53. > :24:55.grow. Of course I am not suggesting for one second that people in

:24:56. > :25:01.society have not suffered through the last few years, that is not the

:25:02. > :25:05.point I am making. The point George Osborne is making is heated what he

:25:06. > :25:11.said he would do and he got what he said he would get at the end of it.

:25:12. > :25:15.We now have the situation that if you are born in 1990, you have to

:25:16. > :25:19.work until the age of 70. In Scotland, we will have the shortest

:25:20. > :25:23.retirement period... We can talk about that in a minute if you like

:25:24. > :25:28.but I don't see how that is woven to the question. You are suggesting we

:25:29. > :25:31.are heading towards recovery and I am suggesting that George Osborne is

:25:32. > :25:36.outlining a rather pessimistic vision of the future which doesn't

:25:37. > :25:43.imply we are in a situation that is recovering, it rather implies things

:25:44. > :25:49.are not getting better for people. Hang on, what did you make of that,

:25:50. > :25:54.Ian Murray? What would you have done as an alternative? What if they

:25:55. > :26:02.abolished the demographic problem by 23rd Dean? It is obviously a

:26:03. > :26:07.difficult process in terms of what has happened in the retirement age.

:26:08. > :26:13.Labour have always at retirement age should reflect longevity but it has

:26:14. > :26:19.to be done fairly and sustainably. George Osborne has actually just

:26:20. > :26:21.gone against his own pension reform bill by covering against the

:26:22. > :26:26.independent body that he has set up through that pension reform bill to

:26:27. > :26:30.look at longevity in terms of the pension age. It is this usually

:26:31. > :26:33.confiscated scenario but I think he has rushed into making a decision

:26:34. > :26:39.when in actual fact, the independent body he hasn't set up should be

:26:40. > :26:45.looking at this. Why should younger people work till they are 70 while

:26:46. > :26:51.short-term pensioners are being protected by practically everything

:26:52. > :26:55.because George Osborne... I don't think that is how they will vote in

:26:56. > :27:01.the future. We do know we have a demographic problem. And we have to

:27:02. > :27:04.solve it. The retirement age, as it was, was designed for a time when we

:27:05. > :27:14.always had a much shorter Wessex Agassi. -- shorter life expectancy.

:27:15. > :27:15.Thank you. A quick look at the front pages. They are all leading with the

:27:16. > :27:27.death of Nelson Mandela. That is all from me on the night at

:27:28. > :27:44.Nelson Mandela died. Good night. Quite a spell of weather for Friday.

:27:45. > :27:45.Winds will be lighter. It will be a