:00:00. > :00:00.they delay going into a care home or nursing home, they reduced the cost
:00:00. > :00:11.and improve the care. If it can be done now, it can be done anywhere.
:00:12. > :00:16.Tonight on Newsnight Scotland: Lawyers call for new rules to
:00:17. > :00:20.enshrine human rights in the way governments and local authorities
:00:21. > :00:24.behave. But will it just end up with what should be political decisions
:00:25. > :00:27.being made by judges? And does the real threat to human rights in fact
:00:28. > :00:30.lie elsewhere? Also tonight, Holyrood joins the
:00:31. > :00:37.great and the good to pay its respects to the late Nelson Mandela.
:00:38. > :00:41.Good evening. It's International Human Rights Day, so cue a raft of
:00:42. > :00:44.proposals for more protection of human rights. A group of 500 writers
:00:45. > :00:49.has petitioned the United Nations to stop governments from snooping on us
:00:50. > :00:52.online. Here, the Scottish Human Rights Commission has an action plan
:00:53. > :00:55.it wants public bodies to adopt in areas like welfare and immigration.
:00:56. > :00:58.But is the real danger elsewhere? Recently, the Guardian newspaper's
:00:59. > :01:00.publication of material said to endanger national security led to
:01:01. > :01:11.the paper's editor appearing before a Commons committee. Aileen Clarke's
:01:12. > :01:14.report begins there. We were both born outside this
:01:15. > :01:21.country but I love this country, do you? How can you justify publishing
:01:22. > :01:26.the Edward Snowden leaked intelligence files?
:01:27. > :01:29.We live in a democracy. Most of the people working on the story of
:01:30. > :01:35.British with families in this country who love this country, I am
:01:36. > :01:39.surprised to be asked the question. But we are patriots and one of the
:01:40. > :01:45.things we are patriotically bow out is the nature of democracy and a
:01:46. > :01:50.free pass -- free press and the fact we can discuss and report this.
:01:51. > :01:58.And this is not just a hop topic at Westminster, ask the green brigade
:01:59. > :02:02.of supporters at Celtic Park. They say this was the hypocrisy of
:02:03. > :02:07.celebrating the Scottish Nationalist struggle while coming arising the
:02:08. > :02:11.Irish nationalist struggle. We wish to exercise their right to public
:02:12. > :02:15.debate about their business. The macro years ago, the Sheriff had no
:02:16. > :02:21.doubt what this man wrote on Facebook about Catholics and Celtic
:02:22. > :02:25.fans was a hate crime and he jailed him for eight months, the first of
:02:26. > :02:31.many cases in a crackdown on sectarian Internet rants.
:02:32. > :02:36.The height bought has ruled the wife of the Speaker of the House of
:02:37. > :02:42.Commons is guilty of libel. Tweeting has become a little less
:02:43. > :02:47.carefree recently. This is not the first defamation
:02:48. > :02:50.case and it will not be the last, but it illustrates an important
:02:51. > :02:55.modern truth, publication is publication.
:02:56. > :02:59.Following that case and a number of others in England, new guidelines
:03:00. > :03:04.were published there. We could do with some here, says this law
:03:05. > :03:10.expert. Free speech was protect it. They did not want to have an effect
:03:11. > :03:13.on free speech should by having prosecutors making cases against
:03:14. > :03:17.people for what they put on social media. It helps prosecutors and the
:03:18. > :03:22.police and they would look at things in context, what was said, did they
:03:23. > :03:25.remove it after it was pointed out the mess it was offensive? Did they
:03:26. > :03:33.delete the message and express remorse when they realised the tweet
:03:34. > :03:36.caused offence? It takes a contextual approach about what was
:03:37. > :03:44.said in the context of free speech. To remind them that it is not just
:03:45. > :03:49.about the tweet, it is also how you reacted before and after you posted
:03:50. > :03:54.it. Shut guidance reflects somebody has the right to be an offensive
:03:55. > :03:59.idiot? -- should the guidance. Absolutely, there is nothing wrong
:04:00. > :04:02.with being an ED at in public, we have a cultural benefit from
:04:03. > :04:09.sarcasm, small jokes and humorous jokes, using satire. These should be
:04:10. > :04:13.protected as fundamental rights. Where it becomes problematic is
:04:14. > :04:21.where you use free speech and you apply a higher Iraqi -- hierarchy.
:04:22. > :04:26.Who becomes the barometer, who decides this free speech has not hit
:04:27. > :04:30.this target? This is where it becomes problematic because we do
:04:31. > :04:32.not want David Cameron or Alex Salmond saying that they took
:04:33. > :04:37.offence, the comments were offensive as they made fun of somebody 's
:04:38. > :04:43.physical appearance or politics. There is a right to be foolish and
:04:44. > :04:49.it is not criminal necessarily to be foolish. But we do not want. Be
:04:50. > :04:54.criminals as a result of that. -- we do not want schools to be criminals.
:04:55. > :05:01.Lord Advocate here has issued guidance specifically on offensive
:05:02. > :05:07.comment on social media about the bar tragedy. It is important we have
:05:08. > :05:32.a robust persecution policy towards such offensive comments.
:05:33. > :05:39.The Crown office is consulting on wider guidance and offensive
:05:40. > :05:43.comments on social media but in a city shaken by such a research
:05:44. > :05:48.project loss of life, you will question the balance the Lord
:05:49. > :05:52.advocates desires between the right to comment and respect for the dead
:05:53. > :05:56.-- very few will question. And those who mourn them.
:05:57. > :05:59.I am joined now from Edinburgh by the Chair of the Scottish Human
:06:00. > :06:01.Rights Commission, Professor Alan Millar. And in Dundee, the
:06:02. > :06:09.sociologist and commentator Dr Stuart Waiton, of the University of
:06:10. > :06:14.Abertay. The obvious problem with the
:06:15. > :06:18.proposals you are putting forward about human rights and public bodies
:06:19. > :06:22.which talk about things like welfare is that you are turning leading
:06:23. > :06:28.politicians in the criminals. For example, if Iain Duncan Smith was to
:06:29. > :06:36.argue that he thought that the spare room tax was a way of helping people
:06:37. > :06:39.to get accommodation, that is no longer a political argument,
:06:40. > :06:45.according to you, he should be prosecuted and possibly sent to
:06:46. > :06:49.prison, which seems ridiculous. It is ridiculous and it is not what I
:06:50. > :06:54.say or the Scottish Human Rights Commission. The proposals put
:06:55. > :06:57.forward today which have been accepted and endorsed by the
:06:58. > :07:01.government and the Parliament and the public sector and voluntary
:07:02. > :07:04.sector is Scotland 's National action plan for human rights, not
:07:05. > :07:08.something put forward by the Scottish Human Rights Commission.
:07:09. > :07:14.This is a big step forward. And, we are joining the ranks of other
:07:15. > :07:21.European countries. Could you explain why the scenario I described
:07:22. > :07:27.was wrong? Because international human rights are being denied, being
:07:28. > :07:35.realised within Scotland and UK because of the refusal to give it
:07:36. > :07:42.legal status. If Iain Duncan Smith a criminal? No, he is a politician
:07:43. > :07:47.making decisions contrary to international human rights law and
:07:48. > :07:50.people should be protected. So if somebody took Iain Duncan Smith the
:07:51. > :07:55.court and the word to say he was acting in the best interest of
:07:56. > :08:00.welfare and not people like you who say the bedroom tax is wrong, he
:08:01. > :08:08.would lose the court case? Let's look realistically. But he would. He
:08:09. > :08:14.would not made a criminal and sent to jail. He would be told his
:08:15. > :08:20.actions were contrary to international human rights law. What
:08:21. > :08:24.about when he says, I think the bedroom tax, along with my other
:08:25. > :08:29.welfare reforms, and powers people and increases their ability to
:08:30. > :08:33.fulfil their potential as human beings? You may agree or disagree,
:08:34. > :08:37.but I am putting forward a legitimate argument which I believe
:08:38. > :08:42.is right. You would say that that counts for nothing? There such
:08:43. > :08:46.things as universal human rights and is ironic that today, when we are
:08:47. > :08:51.celebrating the life of Nelson Mandela and talking about his
:08:52. > :08:57.legacy, that you look at South Africa and the constitution there,
:08:58. > :09:01.which is Mandela 's legacy, it enshrines universal human rights,
:09:02. > :09:07.there are some things more human and enriching of unity than the
:09:08. > :09:13.short-term political actions of this party and that government in a given
:09:14. > :09:18.period of time. The inequalities you condemn so strongly in your document
:09:19. > :09:25.on more endemic in South Africa than the United Kingdom. So the ANC in
:09:26. > :09:31.South Africa is as criminal as the British government! This talk about
:09:32. > :09:35.criminals is not appropriate for a serious discussion on human rights.
:09:36. > :09:44.What you make of this #. I think your line of questioning is
:09:45. > :09:48.brilliant! Alan Wright -- Allen is right to say it is not the case Alan
:09:49. > :09:53.Duncan Smith would be a criminal, but we are saying actions surely --
:09:54. > :09:59.essentially that politics and the public being replaced I law and
:10:00. > :10:04.lawyers, which is essentially anti-democratic and elitist, that is
:10:05. > :10:08.the worry. Apparently, it it is International Human Rights Day, I
:10:09. > :10:13.did not know this, does anyone else? No, the public are not involved with
:10:14. > :10:20.this, it it is to do with certain legal bodies who define what is and
:10:21. > :10:26.is not a right. What about the other side? You could argue we potentially
:10:27. > :10:31.men right of fundamental at just decisions we make and if there is a
:10:32. > :10:39.consensus in Scotland that the spare room tax is wrong, making it
:10:40. > :10:41.constitutionally wrong is an arbitrator decision but no more than
:10:42. > :10:49.any other decision about human rights. -- arbitrary decision.
:10:50. > :10:57.Yeah, but what is not arbitrary is human democracy. I was in the debate
:10:58. > :11:00.in Glasgow a couple of weeks ago discussing whether prisoners should
:11:01. > :11:05.have the vote and a radical lawyer was saying prisoners should have the
:11:06. > :11:08.vote. Of course, it is anti-democratic means he is using
:11:09. > :11:12.because it is a law that will enforce people having the vote. So I
:11:13. > :11:16.said yesterday, perhaps you should go to the public and try to campaign
:11:17. > :11:21.with them and say prisoners should have the vote. And he said, no, I
:11:22. > :11:24.wouldn't want that. That is the tyranny of the majority. So
:11:25. > :11:27.apparently he is in favour of prisoners having the vote but not
:11:28. > :11:32.everybody else because they wouldn't vote in the way he sees right, so
:11:33. > :11:36.rather than have the tyranny of the majority, you want himself and elite
:11:37. > :11:44.groups like him to be able to dictate to the public what is right
:11:45. > :11:47.and wrong. -- he once himself. I know you say Aiwa is caricaturing
:11:48. > :11:52.this but the effect of what you are arguing is to make policies
:11:53. > :11:57.advocated by the Conservative Party, which is one of the major political
:11:58. > :12:00.parties in this country, contrary to fundamental human rights law as you
:12:01. > :12:06.would like to see it. -- you would like to see it. -- use AI was. These
:12:07. > :12:11.matters are then decided by judges sitting in a court, whereas surely
:12:12. > :12:14.properly they are a matter of discussion amongst politicians and
:12:15. > :12:24.voters? And the voters don't like what is being imposed on them and
:12:25. > :12:28.can reject it. Well, it denies what happened made through the 20th
:12:29. > :12:32.century, which is that the world community got together after two
:12:33. > :12:36.world Wars, Holocaust, Great Depression, and they said, look, we
:12:37. > :12:42.have to have a common standard of achievement and a recognition of
:12:43. > :12:46.universal human rights based on the dignity of individuals and we then
:12:47. > :12:49.construct laws and forms of government based on these
:12:50. > :12:55.principles. They did not drop from the sky, they were negotiated by
:12:56. > :12:58.governments. UK has accepted these treaties but has refused the
:12:59. > :13:02.recommendations from the United Nations to give them legal effect
:13:03. > :13:06.within the United Kingdom. And that is therefore why we have measures
:13:07. > :13:11.such as the bedroom tax, which deprives people of the right to
:13:12. > :13:14.adequate housing. We haven't got much time. I've briefly wanted to
:13:15. > :13:19.talk about another area. Do you think we are missing the other area
:13:20. > :13:25.which is a threat to human rights, which is some of these free-speech
:13:26. > :13:31.issues. I know people will be very upset by this, but for example, this
:13:32. > :13:36.idea of criminalising, obviously, any comments made about the
:13:37. > :13:39.helicopter crash are abhorrent and if they contain comments which are
:13:40. > :13:47.contrary to laws which are already in place, they should be prosecuted.
:13:48. > :13:51.But general terms and in other cases, is that really something you
:13:52. > :13:56.think should be a matter of police action? What is always said is that
:13:57. > :14:00.it is most important to defend rights like free-speech decisively
:14:01. > :14:07.where the exercise of free speech is most obnoxious. I would be very
:14:08. > :14:10.interested to hear what the so-called human rights radicals say
:14:11. > :14:16.about these issues of freedom. Because the example you used, and
:14:17. > :14:20.think you are right. It is a moral issue but it shouldn't be an issue
:14:21. > :14:24.of people being criminalised. Similarly, we have had the Leveson
:14:25. > :14:28.Inquiry, which is the state taking away the freedom of the press to a
:14:29. > :14:32.large extent... I don't want to cut you off but we are running out of
:14:33. > :14:36.time. You are on the rights commission. Are you voicing concerns
:14:37. > :14:44.about some of the issues we have just mentioned? Yes, in terms of
:14:45. > :14:48.access to information and freedom of expression and use of information
:14:49. > :14:51.technology, we are in favour of it. People should be able to enjoy those
:14:52. > :14:59.rights to the maximum without having their privacy being
:15:00. > :15:01.unjustifiably... I am asking whether we should prosecute people whose
:15:02. > :15:06.comments we all might find absolutely abhorrent? Does he
:15:07. > :15:12.support the Green brigade, for example? If comments were made which
:15:13. > :15:22.clearly inside violence, then that is not expressing the right to
:15:23. > :15:26.freedom of expression. We are going to have to leave it there! Thank
:15:27. > :15:30.you. Tens of thousands of South Africans
:15:31. > :15:35.joined dozens of world leaders in Johannesburg for a national memorial
:15:36. > :15:39.service for Nelson Mandela. Barack Obama said he was a giant of
:15:40. > :15:49.history, the last great liberator of the 20th century. Three Hollywood
:15:50. > :15:54.parliamentarians created the opportunity to pay their own tribute
:15:55. > :15:57.as well. He provided an example for people across the planet and
:15:58. > :16:04.encouraged us all to work for the day when in the words that resounded
:16:05. > :16:12.around this Parliament when it was open, man to man, brothers shall be.
:16:13. > :16:19.Today we extend our condolences to the great man's family, the people
:16:20. > :16:24.of South Africa. The world is much, much poorer for his passing but
:16:25. > :16:29.much, much richer for his life. When Nelson Mandela walked through jail
:16:30. > :16:34.tall,, how many across the world found hope again and a belief that
:16:35. > :16:38.change might be possible because of this man because the individual
:16:39. > :16:44.decisions to boycott, to support sanctions, to challenge investments
:16:45. > :16:48.in South Africa. All of us telling that that work could make a
:16:49. > :16:51.difference and there was a point in politics and in campaigning. Nelson
:16:52. > :16:59.Mandela was the best of Africa. He was the best of humanity. He was the
:17:00. > :17:03.best of us all. Many members of my party did not recognise apartheid
:17:04. > :17:10.for the grave violation of human indignity it was and did not
:17:11. > :17:15.struggle to end it. It is a stain on our party. Mandela didn't just speak
:17:16. > :17:20.to South Africa, he spoke to the world. And his message of love, of
:17:21. > :17:24.faith, of forgiveness and of human dignity made him not just a man for
:17:25. > :17:29.our time but a man for all time. Today, as we reflect his life, he
:17:30. > :17:34.lifts us up again to work to a better world. Where, as he said, we
:17:35. > :17:39.close the circle and herald the advent of a glorious summer of our
:17:40. > :17:48.partnership for freedom, peace, prosperity and friendship.
:17:49. > :17:51.Consigning war, poverty, racism, injustice and exploitation to
:17:52. > :17:56.history might seem impossible. We will need the sense of justice, the
:17:57. > :18:02.courage, the resilience and the humanity that he showed if we are
:18:03. > :18:11.ever to be able to say, as he did, it always seems impossible until
:18:12. > :18:15.it's done. And commemorating Nelson Mandela, figures on many of the
:18:16. > :18:20.front pages tomorrow. There is a picture of Areca bomber with Nelson
:18:21. > :18:24.Mandela's widow. He makes me want to be a better man, that is the
:18:25. > :18:31.headline. -- a picture of President Obama. That is all we have time for
:18:32. > :18:38.tonight. I will be back tomorrow. Until then, good night.
:18:39. > :18:43.Good evening. The mild weather continues. It gets a little chilly
:18:44. > :18:49.in the evening but overall, it is very mild for the time of year. The
:18:50. > :18:51.mist and fog will be a problem across the East and south-east in
:18:52. > :18:54.the morning and that is because there is so much moisture in this
:18:55. > :19:00.relatively mild air that it condenses out during the night. Most
:19:01. > :19:01.places will have weather looking something like this but the