:00:16. > :00:22.Class sizes for primary school children are creeping up. Is the
:00:23. > :00:34.policy to cut class sizes the right one? 18 pupils per car lasts was the
:00:35. > :00:46.SNP manifesto promise in 2007. Now 25 is the statutory upper limit but
:00:47. > :00:51.only for primary one classes. I believe that we have had a
:00:52. > :00:55.Scottish Parliament now for eight years and it is time we had a
:00:56. > :01:00.Scottish Government as well. The promise could not have been
:01:01. > :01:03.clearer. The measures that we care about and have not been delivered by
:01:04. > :01:11.the current illustration but must be delivered now. Lower class sizes for
:01:12. > :01:14.primary is one to primary three. Every single piece of major
:01:15. > :01:21.educational research demonstrates that the early years, early
:01:22. > :01:31.intervention, is crucial. Four years later the SNP returned to the
:01:32. > :01:34.subject. There was also an acknowledgement that there was more
:01:35. > :01:41.work to be done. The aspiration was rewritten with a new promise of a
:01:42. > :01:46.limit of 25 on class sizes in primary one which has now been put
:01:47. > :01:52.into law. Scottish Government statistics published today shows
:01:53. > :01:56.that has been almost met. Just 600 primary one pupils are being taught
:01:57. > :02:01.in classes of over 25. But the number being taught in classes of
:02:02. > :02:08.fewer than 18 has fallen. Average class size is have gone up. The
:02:09. > :02:15.number of teachers have gone down my daughter is in a class of 25. That
:02:16. > :02:27.seems a lot. It is a small classroom. They are crammed in. It
:02:28. > :02:32.is not great. I know there is a 25 student limit. 25 is a good limit. I
:02:33. > :02:40.would not want to see it go over that. They are already quite high. I
:02:41. > :02:44.did not know that they were rising. I suppose it is down to how the
:02:45. > :02:48.school managers and how the teachers manage their classes.
:02:49. > :02:53.Political opponents have been piling into accuse the Government of
:02:54. > :02:57.letting children down. It is embarrassing for Mike Russell. In
:02:58. > :03:05.2007 the SNP promised that all primary one to primary three classes
:03:06. > :03:10.would be 18 or fewer. Less than 20% of the classes now heads that figure
:03:11. > :03:17.up the Education Secretary visiting a high school today took the chance
:03:18. > :03:23.to trumpet Government success. The number one priority is to make sure
:03:24. > :03:29.that the schools are renewed. We have two maintain teacher numbers.
:03:30. > :03:34.Those are all important things. It is a question of priorities. We are
:03:35. > :03:38.doing well in class sizes. We are not getting to the lowest level I
:03:39. > :03:43.would like to see. That has not been possible given the financial
:03:44. > :03:46.squeeze. But Scottish education continues to improve. But there is a
:03:47. > :03:53.warning that the statistics reveal a reduction in resources for preschool
:03:54. > :04:00.children. The financial constraints make it all but inevitable that they
:04:01. > :04:04.will be focused on things that they have two do, rather than things that
:04:05. > :04:13.are aspirations. At the impact is wider than just on
:04:14. > :04:16.baby schools. The Scottish Government has made clear its
:04:17. > :04:21.determination that there should be access to a nursery teacher for
:04:22. > :04:27.every nursery age child within Scotland. It has made clear his
:04:28. > :04:33.determination that the entitlement should increase. If that access is
:04:34. > :04:38.not provided through nursery teachers then the service moves
:04:39. > :04:44.towards education -- away from education towards care. This issue
:04:45. > :04:51.matters because trust is important for politicians. Parents will not
:04:52. > :04:53.forgive or forget if they think their children's feature is being
:04:54. > :04:58.put at risk. Earlier I asked Mike Russell that
:04:59. > :05:05.the child entering primary one this September will be in a larger
:05:06. > :05:21.lasts. Some children will be but not all children. These have been tough
:05:22. > :05:25.financial times. We have still got lower class sizes than anybody
:05:26. > :05:30.thought we could achieve. We have got a legal maximum for primary one.
:05:31. > :05:37.The tables you could use in your own document today show that the average
:05:38. > :05:42.class size in primary one, primary two, and primary three have gone up
:05:43. > :05:50.since you took office. That is not strictly true. Class numbers in
:05:51. > :05:54.primary one remain lower. These are marginal increases we have seen in
:05:55. > :05:58.these sets of figures. What we have got is continuing improvement in
:05:59. > :06:06.Scottish education. We have been able to secure it in difficult
:06:07. > :06:14.financial times. We report twice per year on educational figures. We are
:06:15. > :06:19.continuing to make progress. We are closing the attainment gap. They are
:06:20. > :06:41.difficult times. But progress is being made. Just to refer to your
:06:42. > :06:57.own data, . Those numbers are making progress. 22.8 in 2007, 20 3.7 more
:06:58. > :07:01.recently. You said class sizes have not gone up. I have quoted figures
:07:02. > :07:06.from your own documents that show the opposite of what you have said.
:07:07. > :07:10.I do not think they do. We have made progress over the last seven years.
:07:11. > :07:17.Would I like to have made more progress? You are working on some
:07:18. > :07:21.weird feeling of suspects. I am not working on a weird really. I am
:07:22. > :07:30.working on the reality of Scottish education. I am setting the legal
:07:31. > :07:35.maximum. There is a basic question about the openness of opticians. I
:07:36. > :07:38.have quoted your own document showing the opposite of what you are
:07:39. > :07:47.seeing. Instead of addressing that you are saying, it does not say
:07:48. > :07:52.that. We can argue this all evening. I was quoting your own document that
:07:53. > :07:56.you produced this morning. We have had four minutes and we have not got
:07:57. > :08:01.to the substance of this. We need to have continued drug arrest in
:08:02. > :08:09.Scottish education. We have got lower class sizes than we have had
:08:10. > :08:17.in a long time. -- we need to have continued progress in Scottish
:08:18. > :08:25.education. We have managed to continue with progress. I would like
:08:26. > :08:29.to make data progress. After you gave up on the original target, the
:08:30. > :08:37.next one was that you had an agreement that 20% of primary one
:08:38. > :08:43.students would be in classes of 18 or under. Not only have you not
:08:44. > :08:49.achieved that, but the proportion has fallen sharply. But what you
:08:50. > :09:03.have got to look at is the agreement we made was to do with ratios. There
:09:04. > :09:10.have been lots of pressures. We have tried to maintain ratios. We have
:09:11. > :09:19.not totally managed to keep that in terms of teacher numbers. The deal
:09:20. > :09:26.after that was to keep the ratios the same. You have not managed to do
:09:27. > :09:31.that either. I am afraid we have. The ratio is the same as last year.
:09:32. > :09:36.The figure is the same as last year. That is the headline figure in the
:09:37. > :09:45.report. Not-for-profit mini one, primary two and primary three. The
:09:46. > :09:51.local authorities have said today they are glad they have been able to
:09:52. > :09:58.honour that. We have been able to maintain teacher pupil ratios. I was
:09:59. > :10:06.like to see us make further progress in class sizes. One of the things I
:10:07. > :10:13.did in 2011 was to try and set a legal maximum. That is what we did
:10:14. > :10:20.for primary one. We are a long way from your original promises. It was
:10:21. > :10:29.not journalists like myself that the big fuss about class sizes. It was
:10:30. > :10:36.not educational experts. It was the SNP. It was you that said this was
:10:37. > :10:40.the most important thing. You have failed in every target you have set
:10:41. > :10:44.yourself. Now you try to pretend that the statistics in your own
:10:45. > :10:53.document at either wrong or irrelevant. I do not want to pretend
:10:54. > :10:57.anything. We have made some progress. Would I like to make more
:10:58. > :11:02.progress? Yes I would love to make more progress. Can we make more
:11:03. > :11:08.progress? That'll depend on resources. Having made an agreement
:11:09. > :11:19.about maintaining ratios? Yes we have. Can we do more? I hope so. How
:11:20. > :11:26.does this relate to education? It was you that made it an issue, not
:11:27. > :11:31.me. Have you not created a rod for your own back cushion Mark would not
:11:32. > :11:37.be better to say that class sizes are not important, let us be framed
:11:38. > :11:48.the discussion? You have been going on about it. What I have been trying
:11:49. > :11:55.to say was the connection between class sizes and attainment. It is
:11:56. > :12:05.one of the factors. All the evidence now shows there are other factors.
:12:06. > :12:09.We are now working on more data. We are working on making sure there is
:12:10. > :12:14.better leadership. We are making sure there are partnerships in that.
:12:15. > :12:21.That is progress. Would I like class sizes to be smaller? Yes. Can we
:12:22. > :12:29.make progress in education? Yes they are making progress. I enjoyed no by
:12:30. > :12:44.the general secretary of the EIS Larry Flanagan, and by expert in
:12:45. > :12:49.primary and early years education. Actually, should we just give up
:12:50. > :12:54.with this session about class sizes, because as far as I am aware, the
:12:55. > :13:03.research shows that while it might help it is not the be all and end
:13:04. > :13:07.all. It is not a signal to -- significant factor on its own. It is
:13:08. > :13:10.a factor along with a whole load of others, like the teacher
:13:11. > :13:16.relationship, the class behaviour, the environment in the classroom. I
:13:17. > :13:20.would not want to see it set aside because I think to have an ambition
:13:21. > :13:25.for reduced class sizes is an ideal and we have to hang onto those
:13:26. > :13:30.ideals. But I also think that this is a relative concept, and in
:13:31. > :13:34.knowing I was coming on to talk to you this evening I was looking at
:13:35. > :13:40.the English statistics as well, and they capped at 30. We capped at 25,
:13:41. > :13:45.and I think that capping in 2011 has had a significant shift in what
:13:46. > :13:52.local authorities are attempting to do in keeping class sizes from
:13:53. > :13:57.escalating. Do you mean both England and here? So it is not the levels of
:13:58. > :14:00.the argument, it is about statistics? It is a good argument to
:14:01. > :14:06.have to keep yourself on the right track? The cap is helpful and it is
:14:07. > :14:09.in the best interests of children that we have a smaller figure in
:14:10. > :14:14.Scotland than in England. Most teachers will say, give me a smaller
:14:15. > :14:21.class and I can be more flexible and effective. Do you agree, Larry
:14:22. > :14:26.Flanagan? Should we stop obsessing with class sizes? I think class
:14:27. > :14:32.sizes are crucial to attainment across the board. One of the reasons
:14:33. > :14:37.there is difficulty with the backward train in the classroom
:14:38. > :14:43.sizes is because we have failed to maintain the teacher numbers which
:14:44. > :14:49.were promised two years ago. There were cuts in the education budget.
:14:50. > :14:56.If you do not have the teachers in place, you cannot control class
:14:57. > :15:01.sizes. We are talking about the local authority that is replacing
:15:02. > :15:07.nursery teachers with non-teachers. It is not only class sizes that the
:15:08. > :15:11.Government has pledged, it has pledged to improve access for
:15:12. > :15:16.teachers in nursery education and that is not being met and it has
:15:17. > :15:19.been reversed. There are significant concerns about the failure of the
:15:20. > :15:26.Scottish Government to deliver its policy objectives. If we are looking
:15:27. > :15:36.for other factors, Aline-Wendy, what should be looked at? For example, it
:15:37. > :15:41.is often cited that in Japan's schools there are systems of groups
:15:42. > :15:45.where the more able pupils help the less able. That happens in Finland
:15:46. > :15:50.as well. Is it that sort of thing we should be trying, to change the
:15:51. > :15:57.culture of angry schools rather than just obsessing about how many
:15:58. > :16:01.students they have? The countries that do well on these statistics,
:16:02. > :16:05.the evidence is strong, but it is not so much the class size as the
:16:06. > :16:09.quality of the teacher, and I think we are actually doing a good job. I
:16:10. > :16:15.hear what Larry is saying about teacher numbers and budgets and that
:16:16. > :16:19.is a serious issue and the question of who worked in nursery education
:16:20. > :16:24.is dear to my heart as well but I do think... Aren't we addressing that?
:16:25. > :16:29.Aren't the new rules coming in about the qualifications that you need to
:16:30. > :16:35.become a primary school teacher in Scotland? The qualifications have
:16:36. > :16:43.remained the same. The competencies have shifted. There is a BA at my
:16:44. > :16:50.own university which is a new and exciting focus on teacher education.
:16:51. > :16:57.But in terms of preschool education, it is a teacher from the age of
:16:58. > :16:59.three upwards in Scotland. Everyone training for primary school has
:17:00. > :17:10.preschool experience. We have done a great job in the last... Since 2008
:17:11. > :17:15.since raising the qualifications. But it is the teacher who leads a
:17:16. > :17:19.class in primary school and it is a mixed group of professionals in the
:17:20. > :17:24.preschool sector. Larry's point about access to a teacher is
:17:25. > :17:27.incredibly important. He was talking about preschool, so we will come
:17:28. > :17:34.onto that in a second. Larry Flanagan, there does not seem to be
:17:35. > :17:38.much hard evidence that class sizes in primary school, the lower they
:17:39. > :17:43.are, it might help. There does not seem to be much hard evidence that
:17:44. > :17:48.they are quite as crucial as you are suggesting. I accept the point has
:17:49. > :17:54.been made about teachers' professionalism, and we need to
:17:55. > :17:59.develop the skills of the teacher because that is crucial, but that is
:18:00. > :18:05.not mutually exclusive to the issue of class sizes. It was interesting
:18:06. > :18:10.introduction... All the parents that you spoke to instinctively realised
:18:11. > :18:15.that if their children are in smaller classes, there will be more
:18:16. > :18:20.one-to-one attention, and those who teach a class understand that. If
:18:21. > :18:28.you have a smaller class size, you get more individual attention.
:18:29. > :18:36.Picking up on some of the issues you mentioned, using tables to support
:18:37. > :18:41.each other, Curriculum For Excellence, that is much easier and
:18:42. > :18:47.more practical with smaller class sizes. What do you make of this
:18:48. > :18:52.issue that Larry Flanagan referred to about access to teachers for
:18:53. > :18:56.preschool children? I think it is a Fort concept and it has not been
:18:57. > :19:01.defined properly in Scotland at all, so that access could range from
:19:02. > :19:07.maybe use the a teacher once a month or went a week or maybe you have a
:19:08. > :19:14.full-time teacher in your setting, in some local authorities. So there
:19:15. > :19:20.is a disparity for children across Scotland. We need to address that.
:19:21. > :19:24.Humming back to settings where a teachers employed, we know that the
:19:25. > :19:31.quality of education for children rises, but we also know that degree
:19:32. > :19:36.qualified people, and we have many in Scotland, make a really important
:19:37. > :19:42.contribution. You have to look at what it is... You are still talking
:19:43. > :19:46.about preschool? I am talking about preschool. What do you think the
:19:47. > :19:52.frequency should be? You have talked about how the access is varying... I
:19:53. > :19:58.started teaching in preschool education in an era where you had
:19:59. > :20:02.one teacher for 20 children, and I think that would be absolutely ideal
:20:03. > :20:05.if we want to make a difference for Scotland's children, but what is
:20:06. > :20:09.quite different now than when I started teaching so long ago is the
:20:10. > :20:15.fact that the staff that teachers work with, the wider teams, are all
:20:16. > :20:19.extremely well qualified now. We have to leave it there. Thank you. A
:20:20. > :20:29.quick look at tomorrow's front pages. The Scotsman. RBS pays out
:20:30. > :20:34.?61 million to the US for sanction breaking. Lloyds is fined ?20
:20:35. > :20:43.million. And there is a picture there of the funeral of WPC Kirsty
:20:44. > :20:50.Nelis on the front, who was killed in the helicopter crash. The Daily
:20:51. > :20:55.Telegraph, Cameron threatens to axe MPs' a watchdog is the lead story.
:20:56. > :21:04.The Independent, GCSE results are majorly determined by the NA.
:21:05. > :21:04.-- by the NA. That is it for tonight.
:21:05. > :21:19.Goodbye. File may be a problem again across
:21:20. > :21:24.the Southeast first thing on Thursday morning. A few of us will
:21:25. > :21:34.be affected by that fog in the morning. Look at these temperatures.
:21:35. > :21:41.A very different picture really compare it to what we will have seen
:21:42. > :21:46.on Wednesday. A sunny day. Thursday will be mostly cloudy across the
:21:47. > :21:52.bulk of England at least. In Scotland, also cloudy. Similar for
:21:53. > :21:56.Northern Ireland. The best chance for prolonged sunshine is the very
:21:57. > :22:01.far North of Scotland. Friday, the wind continues from the South or
:22:02. > :22:06.Southwest Musso stained mild but some rain through the country.
:22:07. > :22:12.Writer later on in Northern Ireland but essentially an unsettled day.
:22:13. > :22:14.For the weekend, stormy and potentially quite stormy across the