:00:00. > :00:00.diminished the trust to that level. It is people's own decisions whether
:00:00. > :00:15.or not to trust me again. Tonight on Newsnight Scotland: Two
:00:16. > :00:19.of the country's top judges reject the Government's plans to abolish
:00:20. > :00:22.corroboration. We'll ask the Justice Secretary if
:00:23. > :00:26.anyone in the legal establishment thinks it's a good idea.
:00:27. > :00:32.And we're in Cowdenbeath to look at the by-election race.
:00:33. > :00:35.Good evening. Since the Government announced its
:00:36. > :00:38.plans to abolish the general principle of corroboration in Scots
:00:39. > :00:40.law, it has faced a barrage of criticism from the legal
:00:41. > :00:43.establishment. Today, two of Scotland's most senior judges have
:00:44. > :00:46.joined that chorus. The desire to increase convictions in rape and
:00:47. > :00:49.domestic abuse cases has not persuaded Lord Hamilton or Lord
:00:50. > :00:50.Cullen that the law should change, as our political correspondent Glenn
:00:51. > :01:14.Campbell reports. Corroboration has been at the centre
:01:15. > :01:19.of Scottish justice for centuries. Abolishing the routine requirement
:01:20. > :01:22.for it will make it polished -- possible for criminal cases to go
:01:23. > :01:30.ahead without two independent sources of evidence. All but one of
:01:31. > :01:36.Scotland's's High Court judges and against the change. The exception is
:01:37. > :01:43.Lord Carloway, who came up with the idea. His boss, Scotland's most
:01:44. > :01:48.senior judge, one that without it there could be more miscarriages of
:01:49. > :01:52.justice. A view echoed by the men he succeeded as Lord President and Lord
:01:53. > :01:59.Justice general. Lord Hamilton has never given at television interview
:02:00. > :02:05.on any other issue. Corroboration is a matter of real importance in this
:02:06. > :02:11.day and age. I think it is a mark of a sound criminal justice system that
:02:12. > :02:15.the system should be more concerned about convicting and punishing
:02:16. > :02:19.innocent people than it should be about allowing guilty people to go
:02:20. > :02:27.three. If I could give you a quote from an English commentator, a
:02:28. > :02:31.famous quote, the man said, it is better that ten guilty persons
:02:32. > :02:37.escape than one innocent suffers. Lord Cullen raises similar concerns.
:02:38. > :02:40.It is possible more cases will be prosecuted than before. I understand
:02:41. > :02:46.that. It is possible more convictions might take place. My
:02:47. > :02:52.concern, my knees, is that in the process of doing that, one might
:02:53. > :02:59.have created a situation where wrongful convictions occur. There is
:03:00. > :03:02.a serious risk of that. We should retain corroboration as an essential
:03:03. > :03:06.part of criminal jurisdiction in Scotland. The only other surviving
:03:07. > :03:12.former head of the judiciary has also questioned the wisdom of
:03:13. > :03:15.abolishing corroboration. These are powerful voices against removing the
:03:16. > :03:22.ancient requirement for corroboration. But victims' troops,
:03:23. > :03:26.police and prosecutors say the rule is preventing domestic abuse and
:03:27. > :03:34.sexual offence cases from being heard in our courts. And the last
:03:35. > :03:37.two years, 170 cases of rape have had to have had no proceedings taken
:03:38. > :03:46.in them because of insufficient evidence. In many incidents, that is
:03:47. > :03:49.lack of corroboration. Police often find that they can't get
:03:50. > :03:52.corroboration for crimes committed in private. Lord Cullen things that
:03:53. > :03:56.could be addressed by more limited reform. If a body such as the Law
:03:57. > :04:02.commission looked at this matter, they might want to consider whether
:04:03. > :04:08.certain categories or types of cases should have modification or
:04:09. > :04:13.relaxation. Perhaps, I don't know, taking the form of the judge having
:04:14. > :04:17.the power to relax the need of corroboration if you satisfied that
:04:18. > :04:23.no corroborative evidence could ever be expected to be given in the
:04:24. > :04:26.circumstances of that case. That is not on the Government's agenda. It
:04:27. > :04:30.is determined to abolish the general requirement for corroboration with
:04:31. > :04:36.new safeguards against wrongful conviction. Including increasing the
:04:37. > :04:40.jury majority required to secure a conviction. Lord Hamilton things
:04:41. > :04:45.that provision does not go far enough, given that Julie is in
:04:46. > :04:50.Scottish criminal cases have 15 members. I think it is proposed in
:04:51. > :05:00.the bill that the majority should be increased from one date for guilty
:05:01. > :05:06.to ten. I would increase that to 12. I think you require a substantial
:05:07. > :05:12.majority if you have got to abolish corroboration. The justice secretary
:05:13. > :05:16.says he is open to ideas. We're open to ensuring the scales of justice
:05:17. > :05:21.are properly balanced. That includes building in additional safeguards.
:05:22. > :05:25.We are happy to take on board issues from the legal profession. But
:05:26. > :05:29.access to justice has been denied and thousands of victims are being
:05:30. > :05:33.denied the opportunity, not necessarily for a conviction to a
:05:34. > :05:41.car, because that is for the court, but at least to have their case
:05:42. > :05:46.heard. The evidence for and against corroboration will be weighed up by
:05:47. > :05:47.Holyrood politicians. In the end, it is the rather than High Court judges
:05:48. > :06:07.who will decide the law of the land. A little earlier, I spoke to the
:06:08. > :06:10.Justice Secretary Kenny MacAskill. I asked him what he thought of Lord
:06:11. > :06:13.Cullen's suggestion that instead of getting rid of corroboration in all
:06:14. > :06:18.cases, it should be up to the judge to decide whether it is needed or
:06:19. > :06:23.not. That has been suggested, but the Lord President thought that
:06:24. > :06:30.would not work. I see clear difficulties in having
:06:31. > :06:33.two systems of evidence. When forensic scientists and placed on a
:06:34. > :06:39.crime scene, which ruled that the apply? Sometimes it will not be
:06:40. > :06:42.clear what crime has been committed. It was for that reason the current
:06:43. > :06:46.Lord President made it clear he did not think that separating sex and
:06:47. > :06:53.rape crimes out would be appropriate. Explain what the
:06:54. > :07:00.problem is. Police turn up and what exactly is a problem? There is a
:07:01. > :07:03.variety of issues. That is why the Lord President made it clear. It
:07:04. > :07:10.would have to be lamented in court. It could be multiple charges were
:07:11. > :07:13.people face different criteria for different offences. You could have a
:07:14. > :07:16.situation where someone could be charged with a sexual offence but
:07:17. > :07:19.the person could dip and it could become a murder charge. Which rules
:07:20. > :07:26.are to be used if a police officer or forensic scientist comes up
:07:27. > :07:30.because they're at a crime scene? What crime has been committed?
:07:31. > :07:34.Sometimes it is not clear if it is murder and sexual assault or murder
:07:35. > :07:39.alone. Which rules which you apply at that instance? I have had clear
:07:40. > :07:43.advice, not just the evidence from the Lord President, but evidence
:07:44. > :07:47.from police and forensic science, that because considerable
:07:48. > :07:55.difficulties. That is echoed by the faculty of advocates. Lord Hamilton
:07:56. > :08:01.is making the suggestion that instead of raising the majority of a
:08:02. > :08:05.jury to ten, in order to compensate, if you like, for lack of
:08:06. > :08:12.corroboration, it should be 12. What do you make of that? We're happy to
:08:13. > :08:18.consider that. We made it clear that we would that jury majority to ten,
:08:19. > :08:22.or to two thirds, we felt that was an appropriate safeguard. That was
:08:23. > :08:25.considered by the High Court and we accepted that. We made it quite
:08:26. > :08:32.clear that we were happy to consider any additional safeguard that Arafat
:08:33. > :08:35.is necessary. We feel that the scales of justice are balanced not
:08:36. > :08:40.simply for the accused but for the victims of the wider community. I
:08:41. > :08:44.would like to go to some of the suggestions. Lord Hamilton's other
:08:45. > :08:48.proposal is that there should be a revision of the circumstances of
:08:49. > :08:54.which judges can give advice to the jury. That is a matter we would be
:08:55. > :08:58.happy to discuss with the Lord President, so far, that was not
:08:59. > :09:04.suggested by the senators, but we made it clear that we are open to
:09:05. > :09:06.considering any additional safeguard that is necessary once the routine
:09:07. > :09:11.requirement for corroboration has gone. I'm currently engaging in
:09:12. > :09:17.discussions with academics, I have met with the Law Society, with the
:09:18. > :09:19.faculty of advocates, so we are open to further suggestions because we
:09:20. > :09:23.recognise that once we make the changes in the rules of
:09:24. > :09:26.corroboration it has to be balanced and offset with additional
:09:27. > :09:33.safeguards. All of these matters, we are happy to consider. You do not
:09:34. > :09:39.seem disposed to the ideas of Lord Cullen, but in the ideas of Lord
:09:40. > :09:43.Hamilton, while the second one, you say you look at it. What about the
:09:44. > :09:50.jury majority, why can you not say now that this is a good idea to
:09:51. > :09:56.protect possibly innocent people? Because we carried out a
:09:57. > :10:01.consultation. But you can say in your view that is necessary. We had
:10:02. > :10:06.submissions from the current colleges of justice, they were part
:10:07. > :10:09.of the proposals that we have, but we made it clear we are open to
:10:10. > :10:14.suggestions for additional safeguards and I'm happy to consider
:10:15. > :10:18.them. There is an issue when all of the High Court judges, bar the one
:10:19. > :10:25.that came up with the proposal, or against this, it doesn't look like a
:10:26. > :10:29.brilliant proposal. With every law, it is made by Parliament, that is
:10:30. > :10:38.the situation with tomography. It is made by the parliament elected by
:10:39. > :10:40.the people of Scotland. It is implemented by the judiciary. The
:10:41. > :10:45.decisions are made by the Parliament, not by the judiciary,
:10:46. > :10:52.and that is the situation in every jurisdiction. But you're telling us
:10:53. > :11:02.that with one exception, they're all wrong. No, it was the Lord President
:11:03. > :11:05.that appointed the Lord Justice. There was the decision forced upon
:11:06. > :11:12.us by the Supreme Court in London. Lord Carloway took a year out to go
:11:13. > :11:18.and investigate this. You do not think it is a problem that all of
:11:19. > :11:23.the judges are against you bar on? It is not unusual in law to see a
:11:24. > :11:27.dispute between learner to friends. But Lord Carloway is the one that
:11:28. > :11:34.took a year out to go away and look at what other jurisdictions do, and
:11:35. > :11:39.he came back and said, that it was archaic, that it should go, and as I
:11:40. > :11:42.say, I think that is corroborated, no pun intended, by the fact that no
:11:43. > :11:46.other jurisdiction users corroboration.
:11:47. > :11:49.In just over two weeks, voters in Fife will go to the polls to elect a
:11:50. > :11:53.new MSP for Cowndenbeath. The by-election was caused by the
:11:54. > :11:56.death of Labour MSP Helen Eadie last year. Our reporter Steven Godden has
:11:57. > :12:07.been to the former mining area to find out what the voters think.
:12:08. > :12:11.High octane racing at Central park, a big draw for locals preparing to
:12:12. > :12:16.take part in a different sort of race, a by-election in an area that
:12:17. > :12:22.over the years has had a fair few bumps and bruises. Not far away,
:12:23. > :12:27.these grumpy old men gathered at this restaurant in the high Street,
:12:28. > :12:38.one of the few places left where they can put the world to rights. We
:12:39. > :12:46.have had five places we can go and have a good time, now we have only
:12:47. > :12:57.one. There is no money here now. On the barometer of decline in an
:12:58. > :13:01.industrial area. These pits were dotted across the landscape, now,
:13:02. > :13:06.all that means moneymen is to a once thriving industry. Ben Johnson
:13:07. > :13:14.select school, it was not just a question of choosing a career. They
:13:15. > :13:18.just dug a hole, and when it became too difficult, they went" somewhere
:13:19. > :13:24.else, but there was never any real doubt where you are going to go when
:13:25. > :13:29.you left school. Cole was the only thing to emerge from deep
:13:30. > :13:39.underground. Mining communities in Fife elected Willie Gallagher, a
:13:40. > :13:42.commonest MP. The election promise a week ago with the bizarre occasion.
:13:43. > :13:48.The vote was tied 6-6 between Mr Sharpe and the Labour nominee. Mr
:13:49. > :13:55.Shah's name was picked out of the hat. A radical tradition that dates
:13:56. > :13:58.back more than a century. Radical ideas came here, the French
:13:59. > :14:07.anarchist decided to have one of the major anarchist leave here, so
:14:08. > :14:11.fertile was the breathing ground. These were horrible jobs. It brought
:14:12. > :14:16.people together, and beyond looking at the family and each other, it had
:14:17. > :14:19.to be a bigger idea, and it seems in this area of Fife, the bigger ideas
:14:20. > :14:24.have always meant something to people. If you look closely on the
:14:25. > :14:32.street, there are signposts pointing towards that left wing past. This
:14:33. > :14:44.street is attributed to Durie Gagarin, the common -- cosmonaut
:14:45. > :14:49.that went into space. Unemployment, deprivation, they are important
:14:50. > :14:56.issues in the by-election, but by no means the only ones in this diverse
:14:57. > :14:58.constituency. The referendum, people are bound to ask questions about
:14:59. > :15:08.that, and there will be certain local aspect such as the planning
:15:09. > :15:15.arrangements that cover development of wind farms. Back in the cafe, the
:15:16. > :15:18.talking point is the state of the local high street. The older wants
:15:19. > :15:25.less talk and more action. A lot of the problems here can be easily
:15:26. > :15:32.rectified. We go to monthly meetings with discussions, and my opinion
:15:33. > :15:37.is, we're been discussing the same things over and over. And still,
:15:38. > :15:41.nothing is getting done. Before the chequered flag is waved at the end
:15:42. > :15:46.of this month, expect collisions of policy rather than paintwork.
:15:47. > :15:48.I'm joined now from Dundee by the Political Editor of the Daily
:15:49. > :15:57.Record, David Clegg. David, this is presumably, is it is
:15:58. > :16:01.safe Labour seat? It would be extraordinary if they lost this
:16:02. > :16:11.seat, even after the SNP triumphant 2011, Labour on land to this seat,
:16:12. > :16:15.but it would be an earthquake. This is Gordon Brown territory, I believe
:16:16. > :16:17.that Alex Riley, he will be launching his campaign tomorrow, and
:16:18. > :16:21.Gordon Brown will be sitting beside him when he does so, so anything
:16:22. > :16:27.other than a comfortable Labour victory would be a major, major
:16:28. > :16:31.upset. For political anoraks, should they be looking to see if it is how
:16:32. > :16:41.the SNP does the letter to Labour or the Liberal Democrats? It is an
:16:42. > :16:47.SNP, Labour fight. For a while, for a wider idea of what is going on in
:16:48. > :16:49.Scotland, it will be whether Labour increased their majority, which is
:16:50. > :16:55.about 5%, or whether the SNP candidate, Natalie McGarry, an
:16:56. > :16:58.impressive candidate, she is well-known in the area, if she can
:16:59. > :17:04.cut down some of the majority, that would be a good result the SNP. What
:17:05. > :17:13.is your sense of the issues that are there are? These are the issues
:17:14. > :17:16.about the high Street, various issues, in the Dunfermline
:17:17. > :17:21.by-election which was recently, nearby, there was an issue about
:17:22. > :17:25.school closures and the SNP gain some traction on that. I do not know
:17:26. > :17:29.if there is anything quite like that that could cause problems for
:17:30. > :17:32.Labour, because their candidate is the council leader, and was the
:17:33. > :17:37.mention of the independence referendum, it is the dockyard,
:17:38. > :17:41.people working there, we know there has been some uneasiness about how
:17:42. > :17:46.independence would affect that dockyard. I you saying that people
:17:47. > :17:54.that work in the dockyard is live in that area? Exactly. It is right next
:17:55. > :17:57.to the constituency, so if you are working there, the independence
:17:58. > :18:00.referendum is an issue that you might be interested in, because of
:18:01. > :18:07.how it affects the contracts and so on. Thank you very much indeed for
:18:08. > :18:09.joining us. A quick look at the newspapers tomorrow, starting with
:18:10. > :18:19.the Scotsman, it is about free school meals, a ?140 million boost
:18:20. > :18:26.to childcare. The Daily Telegraph, fixed the fridge and save the world.
:18:27. > :18:30.They say, get your appliances fixed rather than buying new ones to save
:18:31. > :18:35.the planet. And the Guardian has pictures of a surfer, and also
:18:36. > :18:45.flagship benefit scheme faces more delays after rift. That is it for
:18:46. > :18:49.us, we're back tomorrow, good night. Hello, further showers tonight,
:18:50. > :18:55.especially in the south and east which could exacerbate the flooding
:18:56. > :19:00.situation. Fewer showers, lighter winds, some sunshine to come,
:19:01. > :19:05.compared to today. The next area of low pressure, the wind is winding up
:19:06. > :19:09.later in the day, so even though there are some showers, some
:19:10. > :19:13.sunshine will bring some showers across Scotland. Not as heavy or
:19:14. > :19:18.frequent as they have been, the wind will not be as strong. Here are long
:19:19. > :19:21.with Northern Ireland and southern Scotland, not too many showers in
:19:22. > :19:27.the afternoon. Some popping up in Wales. More general rain pushing
:19:28. > :19:32.into the south of Wales and across the South West of England, and that
:19:33. > :19:37.could exacerbate the flood situation once again. Numerous flood warnings
:19:38. > :19:41.across the UK, unfortunately. Further east will find fewer
:19:42. > :19:42.showers, some cloudy this in the afternoon, but relatively