:00:00. > :00:00.American government works. Today, a more pragmatic President has two act
:00:00. > :00:00.set that just keeping government open may have two pass for success.
:00:00. > :00:17.The time for grand ideals is past. Tonight on Newsnight Scotland: The
:00:18. > :00:20.government's tried suggesting and asking nicely, so is legislation now
:00:21. > :00:27.the only way to get more equal representation for women on company
:00:28. > :00:31.boards? Good evening and welcome to the new
:00:32. > :00:34.Newsnight Scotland studio. Nicola Sturgeon has floated the idea of
:00:35. > :00:39.introducing statutory quotas to ensure that at least 40% of the
:00:40. > :00:43.people on company boards are female. That has been met with a roar of
:00:44. > :00:46.disapproval from business groups, but when only 19% of board members
:00:47. > :00:51.of FTSE 100 companies are women, does the Deputy First Minister have
:00:52. > :00:59.a point? Huw Williams has been hearing the experiences of some
:01:00. > :01:04.women who have made it the top. When I opened a bank account when I
:01:05. > :01:11.first graduated, the bank manager said, you are a dental nurse. I
:01:12. > :01:22.said, no, I am a dentist. In fact, she ran her own dental practice. But
:01:23. > :01:26.she is against the idea of quotas for female directors. It shows a
:01:27. > :01:34.lack of understanding of private businesses because any private
:01:35. > :01:40.business, even Apple computers were set up by it self, and therefore,
:01:41. > :01:46.you cannot say a small business with three or four staff, you must have
:01:47. > :01:54.one woman on the Board of Directors. The idea of quotas was raised again
:01:55. > :01:59.at the weekend. There is no finer sight than looking out at an
:02:00. > :02:04.audience of women, and every time I do come across an audience like
:02:05. > :02:14.this, I can't help thinking that Parliament will look like this.
:02:15. > :02:18.Nicola Sturgeon promised that in an independent Scotland, she would
:02:19. > :02:29.argue at least 40% of places on boards should be guaranteed for
:02:30. > :02:35.women. It was the UK government... I don't want a debate that is
:02:36. > :02:41.dominated by men in suits. And it is inspiring to see you here today.
:02:42. > :02:47.Women attending the conference certainly agreed on the need to make
:02:48. > :02:53.their voices heard. Women make up over 50% of the population here.
:02:54. > :02:57.Although issues from the referendum affect everyone, quite often,
:02:58. > :03:02.women's priorities are perhaps put aside or not is highlighted as other
:03:03. > :03:09.issues. I am not sure what the reason for that is. But this
:03:10. > :03:13.pioneering woman says, especially for small businesses, quotas would
:03:14. > :03:21.be disastrous. It's bad enough having to D -- to do the PAYE and
:03:22. > :03:31.other bits of red tape you have got to do. Now, you have got to find 40%
:03:32. > :03:37.of women to settle your board. You will then have to say you have to
:03:38. > :03:41.have so many Jewish or Muslim or Christian people. It would be great
:03:42. > :03:47.to have 40% of females. 50% would be fantastic. I don't think quotas are
:03:48. > :03:58.other ways to drive that, necessarily. Caroline has been a
:03:59. > :04:04.consultant for 25 years. The job of finding the right woman is still a
:04:05. > :04:08.challenge, in some cases, so having a quota will not change that. You
:04:09. > :04:13.have still got to find the right woman to fill the 40%. Why do we
:04:14. > :04:24.need to have equality in the boardroom? Women bring very
:04:25. > :04:29.different levels of thinking and decision-making and a different
:04:30. > :04:33.perspective. That is just the difference between a male and
:04:34. > :04:37.female. There is a different way of communicating. There is an argument
:04:38. > :04:43.that companies should set out tactics and targets for tackling
:04:44. > :04:48.gender inequality and then complying and explain why. But how do you get
:04:49. > :04:54.individual candidates board ready? One of my client is a director in a
:04:55. > :05:04.company. I have invited her to different events. I think that is
:05:05. > :05:10.interesting because you get senior women meeting other senior women and
:05:11. > :05:16.some board members have taken her to other places and people. So, she has
:05:17. > :05:28.got a different view, a year on, the jihad before. I have been a pioneer
:05:29. > :05:36.in many ways for women. I have been a pioneer. And if she doesn't want
:05:37. > :05:44.quotas, are they really such a good idea? Absolutely. They have done in
:05:45. > :05:49.other countries. In Norway, they changed to 40% and it change the
:05:50. > :05:53.culture in businesses overnight. Women have a right to an equal place
:05:54. > :05:56.in our society, and that means pay and representation.
:05:57. > :05:59.Joining me now are journalist and author, Lesley Riddoch, group HR
:06:00. > :06:01.director with Devro plc, Dorothy Lowry and the chief executive
:06:02. > :06:13.director of the Institute of Directors Scotland, David Watt. Is
:06:14. > :06:19.there a need for quotas? I think there is. Statistics tell you one
:06:20. > :06:23.story, but either half the population are somehow not capable
:06:24. > :06:27.of contributing towards better corporate governance and it doesn't
:06:28. > :06:34.matter if there is not diversity at the top or you don't. We are sitting
:06:35. > :06:39.here today with news like RBS losing ?40 billion since 2008. Now, that
:06:40. > :06:46.whole climate that was created in the city was a boys club. It was
:06:47. > :06:51.testosterone fuelled mania. We have recovered a bit from that, but only
:06:52. > :06:56.a bit. Surely, this is a time to be asking whether we are getting the
:06:57. > :07:00.best type of governance of companies if we have such a low representation
:07:01. > :07:07.of the kind of people who tend to be more risk averse and less inclined
:07:08. > :07:12.to pat themselves on the back and give themselves the big rewards. All
:07:13. > :07:19.the evidence suggests including women tends to create those more
:07:20. > :07:25.level, flatter management styles. Is it practical to legislate and compel
:07:26. > :07:37.companies to do this? I don't think so. I don't think there is a place
:07:38. > :07:41.for quotas in public companies. Most organisations promote people in the
:07:42. > :07:48.organisation, both on their ability to perform in the role, their skills
:07:49. > :07:54.and their potential for the future. So, women are not performing that
:07:55. > :08:05.well, then? I am not suggesting that at all. Why should more... But isn't
:08:06. > :08:13.the bottom line but there needs to be some level of compulsion?
:08:14. > :08:19.Business needs to be pushed in this direction, it seems. I don't think
:08:20. > :08:26.that is true at all. First of all, the number has grown from 12 to 19%.
:08:27. > :08:33.We are going in the right direction and need to go faster. There is a
:08:34. > :08:39.lot of academic research that diverse boards increased profit. The
:08:40. > :08:52.idea of compulsion is just silly. It doesn't achieve anything. What about
:08:53. > :08:58.that point that if the numbers are going up and the UK government set a
:08:59. > :09:05.target of 25% representation by 2015, and Vince Cable believes they
:09:06. > :09:10.are on target? These were precisely the kind of points put forward when
:09:11. > :09:14.a male trade minister of a Conservative government in Norway
:09:15. > :09:19.looked at the statistics and decided to take action. At that point, they
:09:20. > :09:27.had a 40% quota for public boards since the 1980s for political
:09:28. > :09:33.parties. And they still had a miserable 7% of women on company
:09:34. > :09:38.boards. So they decided then to introduce this mandatory quota. The
:09:39. > :09:48.Guardian had the headline: You're fired! In Norway, a company director
:09:49. > :09:56.made a controversial comment: We have to find these women on an
:09:57. > :10:02.escort service! Later, that director was quoted as saying that having 50%
:10:03. > :10:04.on his board had improved profitability and reduce the number
:10:05. > :10:13.of dirty jokes told around the table. When some women worried that
:10:14. > :10:21.this is tokenistic? Are they there because of their ability will to
:10:22. > :10:24.meet the quota? I am a living manifestation of all sorts of
:10:25. > :10:28.discrimination. When I apply to go to Oxford University, there was a
:10:29. > :10:33.quota system for Scottish students, otherwise there would not have got
:10:34. > :10:36.in. When I was a BBC trainee, there were 50% men and women on every
:10:37. > :10:42.course. When I came back to Scotland, there was a male presenter
:10:43. > :10:48.and they were looking for a theme presented to match him. I would not
:10:49. > :11:05.have got a break if it was not for these quotas. Cometh the hour,, for
:11:06. > :11:10.the woman. --, the woman. The proportion of women on boards
:11:11. > :11:13.and Iceland's largest companies had reached 32% only a couple of years
:11:14. > :11:19.ago. This was because of new legislation. There is no one more
:11:20. > :11:27.enthusiastic than the about doing something regarding this issue. It
:11:28. > :11:30.is not acceptable and we have talked to the people in Norway. We brought
:11:31. > :11:34.them over to Scotland and even the women advised against it. They did
:11:35. > :11:40.not believe it was the correct way to proceed. They found that many of
:11:41. > :11:47.the women began to populate a lot of the boards and to suggest that
:11:48. > :11:50.Norway is perfect is not correct. So it is OK for men to have ten or 20
:11:51. > :11:58.directorships and not women? Absolutely not. Let us do something
:11:59. > :12:03.about it. We are doing things the way to build our membership and
:12:04. > :12:07.we're doing a mentoring scheme another session in March, we have
:12:08. > :12:11.done five already and we are doing constant training and development
:12:12. > :12:15.for all sorts of able. Let us build the capacity, that is what we should
:12:16. > :12:20.do. Why do you believe we are in this position where women are
:12:21. > :12:25.underrepresented and coming forward with this idea of a quote, do we
:12:26. > :12:31.need to look at other issues regarding parental leave and
:12:32. > :12:36.flexible working? -- quote. One of the issues we have in the United
:12:37. > :12:40.Kingdom is the lack of childcare on a cost-effective basis. A lot of
:12:41. > :12:47.women are prevented from going back to work because they cannot afford
:12:48. > :12:51.childcare, therefore we have very talented women sitting at home
:12:52. > :12:57.because of the lack of childcare and childcare is not necessarily a
:12:58. > :13:00.woman's issue, it is a political and country issue as well and until we
:13:01. > :13:07.start to get things like childcare correct, then we will continue to
:13:08. > :13:09.face the problem with the lack of women coming through and
:13:10. > :13:16.organisations and going on to boards. I think we will shortly see
:13:17. > :13:19.the introduction of flexible working or greater flexible working
:13:20. > :13:25.legislation where men can take parental leave than they can take at
:13:26. > :13:30.the moment and as we see more men taking time off, and women obviously
:13:31. > :13:34.returning to the workplace, then hopefully we will start to sort of
:13:35. > :13:39.say the changes happening, but that will take some time for that is to
:13:40. > :13:45.actually work through the system. Lesley Riddoch, we have seen a
:13:46. > :13:49.direct appeal to women at the head of the referendum regarding this
:13:50. > :13:54.issue is childcare measures but when it comes to the number of women on
:13:55. > :14:00.boards, does it need to wait until a referendum or independence?
:14:01. > :14:04.It looks like there has been some movement from the Scottish
:14:05. > :14:06.government. I have a letter sent by the Scottish government sent to the
:14:07. > :14:12.Westminster government asking for the ability to be able to enforce
:14:13. > :14:16.quotas in Scotland. It is a kind of grey area, devolution, although
:14:17. > :14:21.equality regarding legislation is the preserve of Westminster. There
:14:22. > :14:26.was the suggestion that Scottish ministers could do something
:14:27. > :14:31.different. Jo Swinson, the new UK minister, she has favoured the ball
:14:32. > :14:36.route that you described earlier, she believes that is OK for Scotland
:14:37. > :14:39.unless a more detailed case is put in that is being constructed by the
:14:40. > :14:44.Scottish Government and I see all power to their elbow. Does the
:14:45. > :14:50.public sector needs to lead the way here, an area where politicians have
:14:51. > :14:52.greater control arguably? When you look at the local cabinets for
:14:53. > :14:58.instance, Westminster or in Scotland, there is not a 50-50
:14:59. > :15:04.gender balance there, do politicians need to get their own house in
:15:05. > :15:07.order? Absolutely, if you look at all parliaments there is an issue
:15:08. > :15:14.regarding that. Bodies in Scotland have addressed this publicly and are
:15:15. > :15:21.trying to change the balance. You mentioned 19%, we have increased 30%
:15:22. > :15:23.over two years, surely that is progress in the right direction and
:15:24. > :15:31.we should be building capacity and opportunity in the right way. I am
:15:32. > :15:36.delighted that Jo Swinson has voiced her opinion on this issue. How
:15:37. > :15:41.different do you believe companies would be if there were more women on
:15:42. > :15:47.these boards, Dorothy? I think gender equality is very important.
:15:48. > :15:51.It would change how boards operate, but I do not think that making it
:15:52. > :15:56.compulsory is the correct way forward. Did you recognise the macho
:15:57. > :16:03.culture that Lesley Riddoch talked about? I think it depends upon the
:16:04. > :16:09.organisation, she alluded to the banking sector earlier where the
:16:10. > :16:14.whole RBS disaster she said was down to their being a sort of boys club.
:16:15. > :16:20.If we could promote compulsion on quotas, what we will do is instead
:16:21. > :16:25.of the same old men being on the same old boards, what we will have
:16:26. > :16:31.is a smaller number of women with a smaller power base being on boards
:16:32. > :16:37.as well and it is not really going to improve things at all. Lesley,
:16:38. > :16:43.how do you respond? I think that mystifying, then you get to a stage
:16:44. > :16:46.where people have the capacity and you structure things that we, you
:16:47. > :16:53.get all sorts of different people into public life. Let us look at the
:16:54. > :16:59.Scottish Parliament. At its highest point it had 39% representation of
:17:00. > :17:01.women, solely as a result of mechanisms and board has put in by
:17:02. > :17:08.the Scottish Lib Dems and Labour Party, not the SNP. It has since
:17:09. > :17:11.dropped to 34% and the Nordics found this as well that if they took their
:17:12. > :17:16.foot off the pedal for a minute that the numbers tended to come back down
:17:17. > :17:20.again. Unless you have something that stiffens the resolve and a
:17:21. > :17:25.target or quote does it, an intention to create a different sort
:17:26. > :17:27.of society does it, you will get a situation where women watching this
:17:28. > :17:33.in Scotland will get this one message, that they will have to
:17:34. > :17:36.wait, it will be later, it will not be in their lifetimes and that they
:17:37. > :17:41.do not even come second or first. That leads to population
:17:42. > :17:47.demoralisation and I do not think anyone wants that for Scotland.
:17:48. > :17:50.Michelle Mone, the leading Scottish businesswoman, she writes today that
:17:51. > :17:55.she would consider legal action to take against this, is that something
:17:56. > :18:01.you believe that other businesses would consider doing? It is not
:18:02. > :18:06.something that he wants to do. We want to move this forward and look
:18:07. > :18:11.at it positively. If you look the or four years down the road, and we
:18:12. > :18:13.have investigated all of the options like building capacity and
:18:14. > :18:20.opportunity and there is no progress towards the target we all want or at
:18:21. > :18:23.least a fearless or diversity that we all want, a successful measure
:18:24. > :18:30.for women, men and old boards and companies, we will look at that. But
:18:31. > :18:37.we are a long way away from that, we have drawn up to 30% over the last
:18:38. > :18:42.two years, what more do people want? Dorothy, is there a desire on the
:18:43. > :18:47.boards for change? Absolutely. This is evolution, not revolution. If we
:18:48. > :18:51.involved as we are doing at the moment, we will have the red calibre
:18:52. > :18:56.of woman on board who can contribute and enhance the performance of the
:18:57. > :18:58.organisations. Thank you all very much indeed.
:18:59. > :19:03.Now, a quick look at tomorrow's front pages. The Daily Mail says MPs
:19:04. > :19:07.will tell the Queen to rent out her palace and the Telegraph says the
:19:08. > :19:09.economy is growing at That's all from me.
:19:10. > :19:25.Its fastest pace since the economic crash. Goodnight.
:19:26. > :19:35.Good evening. Low pressure continues to move slowly across the United
:19:36. > :19:36.Kingdom with showers overnight and during the