:00:00. > :00:00.awaiting the completion of continuing investigations and fresh
:00:00. > :00:13.inquests. On Newsnight Scotland tonight. Is a
:00:14. > :00:18.Scottish solution to the effects of the spare room subsidy within sight?
:00:19. > :00:21.The Scottish Government says it has the money to negate the impact of
:00:22. > :00:26.the so-called bedroom tax, but need Westminster to enable them to use
:00:27. > :00:30.it? Scottish Labour say they've got a plan B if the UK government
:00:31. > :00:33.doesn't play ball. And the Department of Work and Pensions say
:00:34. > :00:36.last year two thirds of Scottish local authorities didn't even apply
:00:37. > :00:47.for any money from the ?20 million UK Discretionary Housing fund.
:00:48. > :00:51.Good evening. Is the end in sight for the one of the most contentious
:00:52. > :00:57.areas of welfare reform enacted by coalition ministers at Westminster?
:00:58. > :01:00.The Scottish Government says it's found an extra ?15 million to
:01:01. > :01:02.mitigate the effects of the change dubbed the bedroom tax. The
:01:03. > :01:05.announcement follows talks between SNP ministers and Labour MSPs at
:01:06. > :01:09.Holyrood, discussions that have been going on this evening. Both sides
:01:10. > :01:12.are hailing this as a victory but are they counting their chickens
:01:13. > :01:14.before they've hatched. The Scottish Government says it needs to get
:01:15. > :01:19.agreement from the Department for Work and Pensions to lift a cap on
:01:20. > :01:22.the payments they can make to those affected by the ending of the spare
:01:23. > :01:33.room subsidy. Huw Williams has been hearing from one benefit claimant.
:01:34. > :01:38.This is what the so-called bedroom tax looks like.
:01:39. > :01:41.This is what the so-called bedroom brother are losing the benefits
:01:42. > :01:46.This is what the so-called bedroom but she says they need it. I have an
:01:47. > :01:55.extra bedroom but my daughter there is an everyday to see that we are
:01:56. > :02:00.all right. She wills they three or four nights a week because I do not
:02:01. > :02:08.keep well myself. She helps me with my brother as well. We keep the
:02:09. > :02:14.spare bedroom for my daughter but they are still charging me. The
:02:15. > :02:20.Deputy first Minister was visiting a college today. We want to mitigate
:02:21. > :02:23.the impact of the bedroom tax in school and the John Swinney has
:02:24. > :02:31.thrown that money but the only legal route we have two making payments on
:02:32. > :02:34.a regular basis to people affected is the discretionary housing
:02:35. > :02:38.payments. Currently we are limited as to how much money we can make
:02:39. > :02:45.available because we can only top of that fund by 150% of whatever the
:02:46. > :02:50.DWP provides. I will be writing to them to ask them to lift the cup.
:02:51. > :02:56.The Department for work and pensions say they have not yet responded but
:02:57. > :03:02.they said this did not fit with the experience. They said the UK
:03:03. > :03:13.government had set aside ?20 million this year to provide extra support
:03:14. > :03:17.but only 11 councils applied. That leaves around ?15 million on
:03:18. > :03:22.allocated. In reply, the body representing Scotland's councils
:03:23. > :03:25.said those figures were out of date, and details did not emerge until
:03:26. > :03:29.after Scottish government funding was announced, and they said it was
:03:30. > :03:34.purely constructed and unclear, was announced, and they said it was
:03:35. > :03:37.Labour says there is another way for the Scottish government
:03:38. > :03:43.Labour says there is another way for could wipe out debt is built up by
:03:44. > :03:51.tenants, which is what Renfrewshire Council are doing. We proactively
:03:52. > :03:56.went about using the legislation to make sure we could reclassify
:03:57. > :04:05.bedrooms, mostly through the need for medical equipment to be stored.
:04:06. > :04:14.We reclassified to take over 300 people out of the bedroom tax. We
:04:15. > :04:19.have identified ?5 million over five years to set up the council tenants
:04:20. > :04:25.assistance fund, which again proactively looks at those people
:04:26. > :04:28.that have either applied or failed to get discretionary housing
:04:29. > :04:36.payments from the government, and we are using that fund to offset the
:04:37. > :04:42.early years that are accruing. -- the arrears. That dries on the
:04:43. > :04:50.council keeping the books balanced and even campaigners say this cannot
:04:51. > :04:54.continue forever. It is not sustainable but for me if a problem
:04:55. > :04:59.is so strong you have two act on what powers you have two sticks it.
:05:00. > :05:06.That can happen just now and then we can worry about the sustainability
:05:07. > :05:09.in the next budget. When you are talking about infecting disabled
:05:10. > :05:14.people who have been in their homes for 20 years and cannot work and
:05:15. > :05:19.cannot move, you do something in the emergency interim and fix the bigger
:05:20. > :05:22.problem later on. I think on Wednesday the Scottish government
:05:23. > :05:26.will announce it has effectively abolish the bedroom tax. Legal aid
:05:27. > :05:29.cannot do that but I think it abolish the bedroom tax. Legal aid
:05:30. > :05:33.say it has found ways to mitigate abolish the bedroom tax. Legal aid
:05:34. > :05:35.the impact in school. This observer says that is
:05:36. > :05:41.the impact in school. This observer by the SNP. The Scottish government
:05:42. > :05:44.has argued that will not be legally possible to do that but there is
:05:45. > :05:50.increasing evidence that they legally can do that. You have to to
:05:51. > :05:54.look at whether it is realistic to imagine the UK government would,
:05:55. > :06:01.looking for the Scottish government if it were two very publicly say we
:06:02. > :06:09.are helping the victims. Back at Jane's house, she is hoping the deal
:06:10. > :06:12.today is through. They have increased my antidepressants because
:06:13. > :06:15.you are coping with the bedroom tax and trying to cope with the
:06:16. > :06:22.handicapped brother at the same time. I do not know how many times I
:06:23. > :06:27.have broken down and had to go to my doctor through it. MPs on the
:06:28. > :06:32.Scottish affairs committee will hear evidence tomorrow on the impact of
:06:33. > :06:35.the bedroom tax in Scotland. Joining us from Dundee is Professor
:06:36. > :06:38.Paul Spicker, a welfare reform specialist from the Centre for
:06:39. > :06:46.Public Policy and Management at Robert Gordons University. Good
:06:47. > :06:49.evening. Thank you for joining us. Good evening. Tellers more about the
:06:50. > :06:56.legal constraints on the Scottish government when it comes to these
:06:57. > :07:02.discretionary housing payments. The Scotland act, the act which founded
:07:03. > :07:05.the powers of the Parliament, reserves powers relating to social
:07:06. > :07:09.security. Two benefits. Benefits are defined in a number of ways but they
:07:10. > :07:14.are quite specific, that payments which are made for individuals, to
:07:15. > :07:19.help them with their housing costs, are considered to be benefits and
:07:20. > :07:23.therefore normally out with the powers of the Scottish Parliament.
:07:24. > :07:27.What would be the reality is the Scottish Government ignored that?
:07:28. > :07:32.They are talking about ?50 million, a militantly small sum of money in
:07:33. > :07:36.the grand scheme of things. -- ?59. It is not so much about the money
:07:37. > :07:38.but very much a question about whether the parliament could ever do
:07:39. > :07:44.something which was beyond their powers. At every stage of the
:07:45. > :07:48.process, there will be people who will be looking at the system,
:07:49. > :07:54.seeing how it operates and saying old on a moment, I do not have the
:07:55. > :07:57.power to do that. Being fearful of the consequences for themselves
:07:58. > :08:01.personally if they go beyond their legal powers. Labour-saving other
:08:02. > :08:04.mechanisms available. They point to the way that local authorities have
:08:05. > :08:08.been writing off some debts. Is that an option available to the Scottish
:08:09. > :08:13.Government, to fund that particular activity? Would it, as ministers
:08:14. > :08:20.say, also leave them falling foul of the fact that Social Security is
:08:21. > :08:23.reserved for Westminster? There may be possibilities for a number of
:08:24. > :08:30.different funding mechanisms. Labour has come up with one suggestion. The
:08:31. > :08:38.suggestion of forgiving arrears does imply, though, both that the
:08:39. > :08:42.landlords will feel more than a little insecure about it and very
:08:43. > :08:46.often the tenants who are going through the process, who are racking
:08:47. > :08:49.up arrears, will also feel scared. It is often the case with these sort
:08:50. > :08:54.of things that the devil is in the detail. It is very difficult to know
:08:55. > :08:58.how things are going to work in practice. What we have to look for
:08:59. > :09:03.our mechanisms to make it possible. The main mechanism which is possible
:09:04. > :09:09.is to fund landlords, social landlords, housing associations and
:09:10. > :09:16.councils, perhaps, rather than the tenants directly. It is only
:09:17. > :09:19.payments to the tenants that are restricted. It is talked about that
:09:20. > :09:24.local authorities have to apply extra money in the Scottish
:09:25. > :09:25.Government but mainly from Westminster as being a poor
:09:26. > :09:31.situation. The Westminster as being a poor
:09:32. > :09:35.unclaimed. Do you believe that politics are at play? I do not think
:09:36. > :09:38.that is the main factor. Clearly local authorities look at what it is
:09:39. > :09:42.there being asked to do, whether they are able to provide the
:09:43. > :09:47.information or whether they have the mechanisms to deal with that. It has
:09:48. > :09:49.not proved to be a very good system. Professor, thank you very
:09:50. > :09:53.much for that. With me here is the SNP MSP Jamie
:09:54. > :09:55.Hepburn, a member of Holyrood's Welfare Reform Committee. In
:09:56. > :09:58.Edinburgh another member of that committee, Conservative MSP Alex
:09:59. > :10:06.Johnstone and also Labour's Finance spokesman, Iain Gray. Good evening
:10:07. > :10:10.to all of you. Iain Gray, you have been talking to John Swinney, has a
:10:11. > :10:14.deal been reached? We are not at Wednesday yet but the talks have
:10:15. > :10:19.been constructive. This is something we have been asking for for many
:10:20. > :10:26.months. The commitment which was seen today to complete the package
:10:27. > :10:31.of ?15 million, 20 million already, this 15 which seems to have been
:10:32. > :10:36.announced through the means of the media, and the DWP DH money is
:10:37. > :10:41.something we have been asking for for a long time. It is very welcome
:10:42. > :10:46.indeed. We continue to talk with John Swinney about what we believe
:10:47. > :10:51.is a way that this can be achieved and the impact of the bedroom tax
:10:52. > :10:55.can be fully mitigated with or without agreement from the DWP. But
:10:56. > :10:58.is it your understanding that the Scottish Government will only go
:10:59. > :11:05.ahead with these plans if the DWP agreed to lift this cap, as Nicola
:11:06. > :11:10.Sturgeon was suggesting? No. To me, this is perhaps a bit of a red
:11:11. > :11:13.herring and really is the Scottish Government are going to ask for the
:11:14. > :11:16.cap to be listed, I wish they had done at some time ago. We have
:11:17. > :11:18.presented to the Scottish done at some time ago. We have
:11:19. > :11:28.an alternative, not just for local Association in East Lothian, a
:11:29. > :11:32.similar hardship fund is in place, which, as the professor explained,
:11:33. > :11:37.is not making benefits payments but is writing off small amounts of
:11:38. > :11:43.accrued debt. Those two schemes are already in place. They are already
:11:44. > :11:46.working. One has been looked over by Audit Scotland on the other is being
:11:47. > :11:53.considered by the Housing Association's lawyers. Whitney... We
:11:54. > :11:59.should do it now. Let me put these points to Jamie porn. Talking of a
:12:00. > :12:05.cap by the DWP and that having to be raised is a red herring. -- lets
:12:06. > :12:15.talk to Jamie now. Anybody would accept that the much maligned
:12:16. > :12:19.bedroom tax can be helped through discretionary payments of soccer is
:12:20. > :12:24.presently a cap in place. Seems an arbitrary measure to stop the affair
:12:25. > :12:27.from government ministers that they believe the Scottish Government has
:12:28. > :12:32.the means to try to get rid of the bedroom tax and stop the Scottish
:12:33. > :12:35.Government has identified this is the most reasonable request. Is it
:12:36. > :12:41.reasonable to look at these areas that Iain Gray suggested? Ian has
:12:42. > :12:43.already had that discussion and dialogue is ongoing. People are
:12:44. > :12:49.there, particularly those at the sharp end of the bedroom tax will be
:12:50. > :12:53.looking for a politician to come together and find a solution. I
:12:54. > :12:56.think it is pretty clear that discretionary housing payments are
:12:57. > :12:59.the most obvious mechanism. I feel that we can continue to look for
:13:00. > :13:03.some solution but I thought it was interesting what Paul was saying. I
:13:04. > :13:07.think he was pretty clear and the welfare reform committee have had a
:13:08. > :13:11.number of experts from the sector also accepting there are a number of
:13:12. > :13:14.limitations on the Scottish Parliament's ability to act in terms
:13:15. > :13:21.of the reservations set out in the Scotland act. Is this a good use of
:13:22. > :13:26.?15 million, in your view? One could suggest that ?50 million might be
:13:27. > :13:32.better spent on trying to encourage people to move out of under-occupied
:13:33. > :13:34.properties into people who are overcrowded into these properties. I
:13:35. > :13:38.think there is something going on here that we have to be careful of.
:13:39. > :13:42.I do not think the discretionary housing fund is the best way for the
:13:43. > :13:45.Scottish Government to use this as they million pounds it has found. I
:13:46. > :13:49.think there is a good case to be made for adopting the method that
:13:50. > :13:53.was highlighted by yourself by what is going on in Renfrewshire. In
:13:54. > :13:56.fact, what is going on in reverse today is exactly what Lord Freud
:13:57. > :14:02.suggested to members of the welfare committee when he met over one year
:14:03. > :14:07.ago. Do you accept... This is not a new idea. It can be made to work
:14:08. > :14:11.effectively to stop the DEHP is not a perfect fit for what we want this
:14:12. > :14:13.money to do. I would suggest that perhaps we won't to find an
:14:14. > :14:18.alternative way for this money to go. Do you accept this benefit
:14:19. > :14:22.changes causing hardship? Inevitably there will be winners and losers
:14:23. > :14:28.when policy is designed to make better use of existing housing
:14:29. > :14:31.stock. There is already over ?34 million available through the
:14:32. > :14:34.discretionary housing fund to mitigate against those who have
:14:35. > :14:39.problems with the change in the rules. So what I do say is that if
:14:40. > :14:45.there is money available and it is undersubscribed in the current year
:14:46. > :14:48.then perhaps simply bidding each other for the amount of money that
:14:49. > :14:53.we want to see in the fund next year is not the most effective way to go.
:14:54. > :14:56.That is an interesting point. When we have the money available from
:14:57. > :15:00.Westminster and two thirds of the local authority in Scotland have not
:15:01. > :15:03.applied for it, if this is causing so much hardship, why would local
:15:04. > :15:08.authorities not ask for the cash? I understand that came late in the day
:15:09. > :15:10.and there have been criticism of the operators and it came after the
:15:11. > :15:11.Scottish Government had already made the maximum amount that local
:15:12. > :15:17.governments the maximum amount that local
:15:18. > :15:22.this is if we are talking about red herrings, I think this is a red
:15:23. > :15:25.herring from the Department for Work and Pensions. We know that this is a
:15:26. > :15:28.measure that has been put in place that is causing distress to people.
:15:29. > :15:34.The Scottish Government has come up with a straightforward solution that
:15:35. > :15:37.if the cap is listed, it will be compliant with law and I think we
:15:38. > :15:41.should be getting on with that and it is incumbent on the DWP to
:15:42. > :15:44.respond. What is your sense, Iain Gray, office this obscenity of all
:15:45. > :15:49.the parties working together? You have been critical in the part of
:15:50. > :15:54.John Swinney and saying that to some extent he has not been mitigating
:15:55. > :16:01.the fool affects for political classical. -- of this talk of all
:16:02. > :16:06.the parties working together. When the budget that we were discussing
:16:07. > :16:10.was already introduced there was no additional funding. John has brought
:16:11. > :16:15.in an additional ?20 million. He has now said that he has the final ?15
:16:16. > :16:20.million. I think Jimmy is right. The most important thing is that the
:16:21. > :16:27.80,000 households affected, like Jean, the one you should your film,
:16:28. > :16:30.I think their expectation is that we should reach a position where nobody
:16:31. > :16:36.in Scotland has 2p the bedroom tax and certainly nobody has two days
:16:37. > :16:40.eviction because of arrears. The important thing is that we reach a
:16:41. > :16:46.position on Wednesday where irrespective of the answer of the
:16:47. > :16:49.Scottish Government -- the answer the Scottish Government get from the
:16:50. > :16:54.DWP that we put a system in that achieve that. I think we are very
:16:55. > :16:58.close to that and it is definitely, to my mind, a price worth having.
:16:59. > :17:03.How would you urge Lord Freud to respond to this letter from Nicola
:17:04. > :17:08.Sturgeon? First of all, the decision that is involved here is well above
:17:09. > :17:09.my pay grade. However, it is fair to say that there are alternative
:17:10. > :17:11.methods. I think say that there are alternative
:17:12. > :17:13.asking the Scottish say that there are alternative
:17:14. > :17:15.is broaden its say that there are alternative
:17:16. > :17:19.sure that it has an alternative route by which this money which it
:17:20. > :17:23.has managed to find can be used by the purpose it has identified. You
:17:24. > :17:29.would not urge Lord Freud to raise the cap? That is an option but it is
:17:30. > :17:33.not the only option. The last thing I want to do is see the Scottish
:17:34. > :17:37.Government blaming the UK Government for not making the decision it once
:17:38. > :17:40.when the Scottish Government itself could find alternative to deal with
:17:41. > :17:44.this issue. Are you convinced that the
:17:45. > :17:49.alternative work, Jamie Hepburn? And if the DWP says no, should the
:17:50. > :17:53.Government be looking at those? We need to be clear, the reservations
:17:54. > :17:56.in the Scotland act is not just about direct payments in your social
:17:57. > :18:01.Security payments, it is also about payments in respect of what would
:18:02. > :18:05.beetles and security payments. So what might be legal for local
:18:06. > :18:07.government might not actually be legal for the Scottish Parliament.
:18:08. > :18:09.Thank you for joining us this evening.
:18:10. > :18:19.Now a quick look at tomorrow's front pages.
:18:20. > :18:21.They say that the Institute of chartered accountants want more
:18:22. > :18:25.information from both governments. The financial Times says the cost of
:18:26. > :18:26.a financial regulator in an independent Scotland is being
:18:27. > :18:30.questioned also. That's all from me. More news is
:18:31. > :18:33.always on BBC Scotland's website and Good Morning Scotland is on Radio
:18:34. > :18:47.Scotland tomorrow morning at 6am. Good night.
:18:48. > :18:53.After a spell of overnight rain, maybe some snow across the high
:18:54. > :18:56.ground in the north. Most going to choose the north. Most go into
:18:57. > :18:58.Tuesday on a dry and brighter note that there will be some heavy
:18:59. > :19:01.thunder to the south and west. Some of you avoid them altogether and
:19:02. > :19:05.there will probably more dry weather than met for many interesting.
:19:06. > :19:09.Particularly in Northern Ireland, wind is not as strong. The few
:19:10. > :19:10.showers are possible, especially to the