:00:00. > :00:12.of learning a very important skill future. You really need it for the
:00:13. > :00:18.Tonight, it is another day of claim and counter claim as the renewable
:00:19. > :00:23.energy debate heats up again. In an independent Scotland,
:00:24. > :00:26.ministers at Holyrood say the rest of the UK will have to buy energy
:00:27. > :00:30.from Scotland to stop their lights going out. Labour at Westminster
:00:31. > :00:36.says if they were in power, they might just shop around and buy
:00:37. > :00:41.elsewhere. Holyrood's Energy Minister and
:00:42. > :00:49.Labour's Shadow Energy Secretary go head-to-head on the implications.
:00:50. > :00:53.SNPs have backed the Scottish Government's Budget plans. There is
:00:54. > :00:57.no final decision over how the money will be allocated. Parliament can
:00:58. > :01:01.take action to pick up the pieces of a policy dreamed up in Westminster
:01:02. > :01:06.that is causing real hardship to the people of Scotland.
:01:07. > :01:14.Good evening. The Shadow Energy Secretary has been accused of
:01:15. > :01:18.threatening voters after she suggested power builds will have to
:01:19. > :01:23.go up in an independent Scotland. The Scottish Government has said
:01:24. > :01:28.that the rest of the UK faces power cuts without supplies generated
:01:29. > :01:34.north of the border. Whether it is on shore or -shore wind farms,
:01:35. > :01:37.underwater turbines, Scotland has unique renewable energy resources.
:01:38. > :01:42.That's why the Scottish Government has been able to set the target of
:01:43. > :01:47.generating the equivalent of 100% of our energy needs from schemes like
:01:48. > :01:54.these by 2020. The subject of energy has been in the air again today with
:01:55. > :01:57.a new political row or perhaps a reheating version of the same
:01:58. > :01:59.a new political row or perhaps a row. Labour's Caroline Flint claimed
:02:00. > :02:02.that investment in renewables would fall and
:02:03. > :02:05.that investment in renewables would bills in an independent Scotland,
:02:06. > :02:09.but the Scottish Government dismiss that as political point scoring and
:02:10. > :02:14.said the rest of the UK would have to continue to rely on importing
:02:15. > :02:18.electricity, generated at windfarms like this one.
:02:19. > :02:27.Today awe claim and counter claim, take your pick. Either we need to
:02:28. > :02:31.spread the costs or a UK wide market would continue after independence.
:02:32. > :02:35.We will need power from south of the border or they will need the
:02:36. > :02:39.electricity and we will go on selling them. Caroline Flint's
:02:40. > :02:43.comments were raised in House of Commons today. The member said this
:02:44. > :02:48.morning one-third of British investment in renewables comes to
:02:49. > :02:52.Scotland, but Scots contribute less than one tenth to this. Meaning the
:02:53. > :02:58.rest of the UK supports Scottish renewable regeneration through their
:02:59. > :03:02.builds. Scotland has a tremendous
:03:03. > :03:04.opportunity to contribute to the growth of renewable energy as part
:03:05. > :03:14.of the United Kingdom. That's going to take subsidies, subsidies that
:03:15. > :03:18.come from consumers bills. Mike Weir focussed on the bills the
:03:19. > :03:22.constituents are paying now. A constituent approached me and is
:03:23. > :03:26.facing a 50% increase in his unit costs. Others find they have been
:03:27. > :03:30.hammered by high standing charges. Isn't it time for the Government to
:03:31. > :03:34.take action on this and stop the practises?
:03:35. > :03:38.This market expert says a newly independent Scotland would carry on
:03:39. > :03:42.being able to sell renewable power to our neighbours down south. In The
:03:43. > :03:48.short to medium-term, it is highly likely that the rest of the UK would
:03:49. > :03:54.need Scottish electricity. We export more. We have an excess
:03:55. > :03:57.need to use it within Scotland. So we export
:03:58. > :04:02.need to use it within Scotland. So that also helps the UK meet its
:04:03. > :04:06.green carbon reduction targets. The question is further into the future,
:04:07. > :04:11.does the UK look at alternative sources and in the long-term, will
:04:12. > :04:16.it be happy to pay subsidies for Scottish green power. Will bills go
:04:17. > :04:22.up if we vote yes for independence in September? The argument if
:04:23. > :04:28.renewable subsidies had to be covered by Scottish consumers alone
:04:29. > :04:33.is there would be an increase. Wind power is double the market cost of
:04:34. > :04:36.electricity and that's on shore wind, off-shore wind is paid about
:04:37. > :04:42.triple the market price of electricity. If Scottish consumers
:04:43. > :04:46.had to bear that and it is a big if, bills would rise significantly.
:04:47. > :04:50.Maybe what this shows is there is a great untapped source of renewable
:04:51. > :04:54.energy out there. The hot air produced by politicians!
:04:55. > :05:03.Joining me is Scotland's Energy Minister and in London, Labour's
:05:04. > :05:06.Shadow Energy Secretary, Caroline Flint. Caroline Flint, the Scottish
:05:07. > :05:10.Government is saying whatever the politics of this, if Scotland became
:05:11. > :05:16.independent, the rest of the UK would have to buy renewable energy
:05:17. > :05:21.from Scotland otherwise the lights would go out? Well, that's just not
:05:22. > :05:25.true. We will have an opportunity to look at how much we create of other
:05:26. > :05:34.own energy, but we can get energy from France, from Holland, and
:05:35. > :05:39.Ireland as well and two more inter rs are planned. In terms of our
:05:40. > :05:43.electricity in England, we only source 5% of that from Scotland and
:05:44. > :05:47.if you listen to the Chief Executive of National Grid, he does say and he
:05:48. > :05:49.said it recently to a Select Committee that actually England with
:05:50. > :05:53.said it recently to a Select meet its renewable and carbon
:05:54. > :06:01.emission targets and needs just without Scotland being part of that.
:06:02. > :06:05.To respond to that last point, Gordon. What Caroline The flint
:06:06. > :06:09.omitted is the words in theory. The National Grid said in theory that
:06:10. > :06:16.would be the case. It is possible. A lot of protect on which the series
:06:17. > :06:19.predicated may not go ahead. As David Hunter just said a moment ago,
:06:20. > :06:26.in the short and medium-term, if there is a matter of undisputed fact
:06:27. > :06:29.that England will need Scotland's energy, Scotland's nuclear and
:06:30. > :06:35.renewable energy and other sources of energy to keep the lights on in
:06:36. > :06:40.England because of gem warned about a year ago that the margin of
:06:41. > :06:48.capacity over demand at peak times is 2% which is far from safe. That
:06:49. > :06:54.also means Gordon the prices will go up because the UK has failed... Hang
:06:55. > :06:59.on. If Scotland becomes independent, the rest of the UK can get energy
:07:00. > :07:03.from wherever they feel like? That's another point. Caroline is wrong
:07:04. > :07:07.about that for these two reasons. The amount of electricity one can
:07:08. > :07:13.import from France and mainland Europe is around about two gigawatts
:07:14. > :07:17.and France is selling electricity surplus to Germany and thirdly, if
:07:18. > :07:21.you go to Warwick as I have done to understand the technicalities, the
:07:22. > :07:26.National Grid will tell you that they cannot manage this because the
:07:27. > :07:34.price can't be dealt with on the same day basis. Let Caroline Flint
:07:35. > :07:37.reply? England already generates more renewable energy than Scotland
:07:38. > :07:41.does. At the heart of this issue is how we move forward. At the moment,
:07:42. > :07:46.as you full well know, is bill payers across Wales, England and
:07:47. > :07:53.Scotland contributing through their bills to
:07:54. > :07:58.Scotland contributing through their energy. Of the money that comes...
:07:59. > :08:04.Let Caroline Flint finish. Calm down. The situation is that a third
:08:05. > :08:12.of investment towards renewable pot goes to Scotland, but Scots bill
:08:13. > :08:17.payers only pay one tenth to the pot. As far as nuclear is concerned,
:08:18. > :08:21.the money for nuclear is spread over 25 to 30 years. I'm talking about a
:08:22. > :08:27.cost that happens year-on-year. What is interesting the SNP said should
:08:28. > :08:32.Scotland exit the UK you are not prepared to support contributing
:08:33. > :08:35.towards nuclear elsewhere but you expect English and Welsh bill payers
:08:36. > :08:39.to contribute to your renewable investment and that can't be right.
:08:40. > :08:43.You can't have it both ways. Well... Hang on, there is a basic point
:08:44. > :08:48.here. Why on earth if Scotland becomes independent should the rest
:08:49. > :08:54.of the UK subsidise renewable production in Scotland? Why on earth
:08:55. > :08:59.should they? Well, for two reasons, Gordon. Firstly, as your expert has
:09:00. > :09:04.said, the system at the moment is a UK system and that is run by
:09:05. > :09:08.technical experts and electricity from Scotland is required most of
:09:09. > :09:15.the time to keep the lights on in England. That's rubbish. That's
:09:16. > :09:19.total rubbish. The basic point here is why on earth should voters in
:09:20. > :09:24.England who have just seen Scotland walk off with presumely a lot of the
:09:25. > :09:27.oil money, Scotland threatening not to pay its share of the national
:09:28. > :09:32.debt unless it gets the currency union you want. That's fine, we
:09:33. > :09:38.don't mind paying for Scottish renewables through our electricity
:09:39. > :09:40.bill, that's OK? Can I answer those points? It is in the interests of us
:09:41. > :09:41.all co-operate and not make threats that
:09:42. > :09:53.Labour would rather get electricity from France, nuclear power stations
:09:54. > :10:08.than those in Scotland. You cannot have your cake and eat it. Can I
:10:09. > :10:13.just say, the most recent report, expert reporters from Aberdeen
:10:14. > :10:17.University, and on the basis of the studies for nuclear power, 35mm
:10:18. > :10:24.hands, far outstripping renewable incentives, following the prices for
:10:25. > :10:31.electricity, they are likely to be lower than the rest of the UK. --
:10:32. > :10:37.?35 million. Caroline Flint, the bottom line is, from your own point
:10:38. > :10:40.of view, it would be better if the rest of the UK dealt with in a
:10:41. > :10:47.commercial sense with Scotland and if it made sense to die at
:10:48. > :10:55.subsidised properties, -- subsidised prices, then Scotland could do that.
:10:56. > :10:58.If England and Wales need extra energy beyond what we create
:10:59. > :11:02.ourselves, we're happy to look at what Scotland could offer, but we're
:11:03. > :11:09.happy to look at France elsewhere also, echoes the relationship would
:11:10. > :11:14.be commercial. What I am saying, because we work together across the
:11:15. > :11:17.UK, we share the risks, but we also shared the rewards, and that is why
:11:18. > :11:22.we have a situation where English and Welsh bill payers are
:11:23. > :11:29.contributing to Scottish renewable energy in a way that Scottish bill
:11:30. > :11:34.payers do not, and I'm OK with that. But if Scotland exits the UK and in
:11:35. > :11:41.16 months I am the energy secretary, how do I justify that to English and
:11:42. > :11:44.Welsh bill payers? Can I just say about the energy supply in
:11:45. > :11:48.Scotland, 33% of Scottish electricity comes from nuclear
:11:49. > :11:57.power, and the plans of the SNP is to close that down. That is totally
:11:58. > :12:04.wrong. When the wind isn't blowing in Scotland, we send energy into
:12:05. > :12:10.Scotland from England. The assertion that was made is completely wrong, I
:12:11. > :12:16.have visited the nuclear stations and we made it clear that as long as
:12:17. > :12:19.it is safe for them to generate nuclear electricity, they will
:12:20. > :12:25.continue. That assertion is not what she made... It is completely wrong.
:12:26. > :12:31.It is based on physical scaremongering, I am afraid to say.
:12:32. > :12:35.If Scotland becomes independent, it might be up to Caroline Flint to
:12:36. > :12:39.decide this, it could be the Conservatives, it could be the
:12:40. > :12:46.Liberal Democrats in London, it certainly will not be used. This is
:12:47. > :12:51.like the currency issue, one side as we want independence because of the
:12:52. > :12:57.advantages, on the other side, you say you want to rebuild half of the
:12:58. > :13:04.UK. The whole point of the SNP is to get out of the UK, you cannot have
:13:05. > :13:08.it both ways. If I could reply to the charges you are making, Scottish
:13:09. > :13:15.electricity is, as your expert is required for, keeping the lights on
:13:16. > :13:23.in England, in the medium term as well. Common sense will prevail. In
:13:24. > :13:30.the medium to long-term, we will make our own. We have goodwill
:13:31. > :13:34.towards England too happy to work with vast...
:13:35. > :13:43.towards England too happy to work electricity, the lights will go off.
:13:44. > :13:48.That is what the regulator has said. People say all sorts of things. The
:13:49. > :13:52.bottom line is, the decision is not belonging to you, you have no say in
:13:53. > :13:59.UK energy policy if you are independent. Mr Ewing, the truth is,
:14:00. > :14:03.there is more renewable energy completed in England than in
:14:04. > :14:07.Scotland. We have got offshore wind coming from England and across
:14:08. > :14:11.England and Wales who are driving forward a programme of nuclear and
:14:12. > :14:15.renewable energy to re-the supply. The truth is, your comments about
:14:16. > :14:19.scaremongering is really because the SNP wants to shut out any serious
:14:20. > :14:25.discussions about these important issues affecting the UK but also the
:14:26. > :14:30.consequences of Scotland exiting the UK. A Scottish people want to vote
:14:31. > :14:35.to do that, that is absolutely their choice. I just laying out some of
:14:36. > :14:42.the issues that have to be addressed that need to be spoken about now.
:14:43. > :14:44.Very, very briefly. After the referendum is over and Scotland
:14:45. > :14:57.votes yes, there will be sensible discussions. He wanted different,
:14:58. > :15:00.but the same. There are threats of abandoning nuclear power and going
:15:01. > :15:03.to France. This would be rejected when independence negotiations begin
:15:04. > :15:08.in earnest and common-sense will prevail. We shall have to leave it
:15:09. > :15:10.there. MSPs have tonight overwhelmingly
:15:11. > :15:13.backed the Scottish Government's budget plans, including action to
:15:14. > :15:16.counter the impact of the so-called Bedroom Tax. Ministers will now ask
:15:17. > :15:19.the UK Government to lift the current cap on Scottish
:15:20. > :15:25.contributions to benefits to allow the new money to be allocated.
:15:26. > :15:28.Failing that, the Finance Secretary John Swinney says he will use the
:15:29. > :15:30.money to prevent evictions where tenants have landed in trouble
:15:31. > :15:38.purely as a result of the tenants have landed in trouble
:15:39. > :15:42.the Scottish government can do to mitigate the effects have been at
:15:43. > :15:47.the heart of this budget, but with welfare a reserved matter, the
:15:48. > :15:52.finance secretary?s powers are limited. Nonetheless, today he
:15:53. > :15:54.announced nearly ?23 million in discretionary housing payment used
:15:55. > :16:00.to help those struggling to pay the rent. Scottish ministers have asked
:16:01. > :16:05.the UK government to lift the cap on that amount to allow a further ?12
:16:06. > :16:09.million to be spent in order to fully mitigate the effects. If they
:16:10. > :16:12.are not successful, John Swinney said this money will be made
:16:13. > :16:19.available to social landlords to avoid evictions. I urge all parties
:16:20. > :16:22.to support the approach I have outlined today, supporters and
:16:23. > :16:25.pressing the UK government to lift the cap on discretionary household
:16:26. > :16:30.payments to prevent people getting into the terrible spiral of debt and
:16:31. > :16:34.to put resources into place to support the vulnerable. Parliament
:16:35. > :16:38.can take action to pick up the pieces of a policy dreamt up in
:16:39. > :16:42.Westminster that is causing real hardship to the people of Scotland.
:16:43. > :16:46.The Labour Party said it was just because of pressure put on by his
:16:47. > :16:51.party that John Swinney decided to act in the first place and that of
:16:52. > :16:57.the two parties, Labour was in more of a hurry to reverse the Bedroom
:16:58. > :17:03.Tax. I want to see it abolished by a Labour government next year. I
:17:04. > :17:07.understand... I understand that Mr Swinney and his colleagues want to
:17:08. > :17:11.see it abolished in 2016, in an independent Scotland. I think that
:17:12. > :17:18.my way is better. It is better because it will lift the yield from
:17:19. > :17:24.tenants in London, Manchester and Birmingham and Newcastle as well as
:17:25. > :17:27.from Scotland. Despite ?77 million for business rate relief, the
:17:28. > :17:31.Conservatives refused to support the budget saying it did not focus on
:17:32. > :17:37.the economy and that the SNP were trying instead to extract political
:17:38. > :17:41.mileage from welfare reform. It should have been about individual
:17:42. > :17:45.measures. They may not win votes in the short-term but they will help
:17:46. > :17:48.the country in the medium term and the long-term. Individual measures
:17:49. > :17:53.that might help to continue the growth and put it up to a more
:17:54. > :17:56.sustainable footing, because whilst the information is good at the
:17:57. > :18:00.moment, the underlying information is clear, we need business
:18:01. > :18:06.investment in order to maintain the positive news. The budget also
:18:07. > :18:11.includes ?55 million to provide free school meals to all pupils in the
:18:12. > :18:14.first three years of primary school and ?59 million to expand free
:18:15. > :18:19.childcare to hard up families. Although the Liberal Democrats did
:18:20. > :18:22.not get the it's too early years education they hoped for, they
:18:23. > :18:29.nonetheless called it a good day for young children. It will change their
:18:30. > :18:33.fortunes so they can reach their potential and it would be a
:18:34. > :18:38.partnership between parents and this Parliament, so I thank John Swinney
:18:39. > :18:45.for the work that he has done together with me in achieving what I
:18:46. > :18:49.think is a really good day. Yes, 108, Knowle, 15. The Renault
:18:50. > :18:56.abstentions. The motion is therefore agreed to. The budget Scotland
:18:57. > :19:02.number three Bill is passed. Despite the thumping victory, Mr Swinney
:19:03. > :19:07.continues to complain about limited powers. Oppositions say that he has
:19:08. > :19:13.all the Parry needs. It is clear the divisions are only set to widen as
:19:14. > :19:18.we head towards referendum day. No time for the papers tonight, I'm
:19:19. > :19:20.afraid, that is all from me. We're back again tomorrow, until then,
:19:21. > :19:33.from everyone here, good night. Aloe, the strong wind
:19:34. > :19:35.tonight. A blustery start.