:00:00. > :00:00.and Cheltenham put it on their curriculum, then OK, let's talk
:00:00. > :00:08.about choice, but we are not there yet.
:00:09. > :00:13.Tonight on Newsnight Scotland, there's celebrity endorsement, and
:00:14. > :00:17.then there's David Bowie. But whether you're a fan or not, does
:00:18. > :00:21.any of it make the slightest bit of difference when it comes to deciding
:00:22. > :00:28.how you're going to vote? Good evening. On the face of it, it's
:00:29. > :00:31.absurd that Kate Moss speaking the words of David Bowie at a glamorous
:00:32. > :00:35.music industry awards ceremony should have any impact at all on the
:00:36. > :00:38.referendum debate. But an awful lot of people have been speaking about
:00:39. > :00:41.it, and writing, broadcasting and tweeting about it. So is the
:00:42. > :00:44.campaign just desperate for a little glamour, however vicarious, or do
:00:45. > :00:47.the campaigners have hopes or fears that celebrity endorsement could
:00:48. > :00:57.have a serious impact? We'll discuss that shortly with an all star cast,
:00:58. > :01:01.but first Huw Williams reports. The award might not have been a
:01:02. > :01:07.surprise. And the winner, somewhat predictably, is Mr David Bowie. But
:01:08. > :01:13.the acceptance speech was, firstly because it was read by Kate Moss.
:01:14. > :01:17.Kate comes from Venus and eye from Mars. So that is nice. And secondly
:01:18. > :01:27.because of that now famous last line. Thank you very much. Scotland,
:01:28. > :01:30.stay with us. Politics is sometimes called showbiz
:01:31. > :01:35.for ugly folk. Today, the two worlds collided. The chamber will want to
:01:36. > :01:41.join me in congratulating Eve Muirhead in the rink, winning the
:01:42. > :01:46.bronze medal at the Winter Olympics. Perhaps that is a demonstration that
:01:47. > :01:51.we all can be heroes just for one day.
:01:52. > :02:02.Britain have won the bronze medal at!
:02:03. > :02:06.At Holyrood was not finished yet. -- but Holyrood. Now that's David Bowie
:02:07. > :02:10.has come out for the union, can the first Minister explain to us why
:02:11. > :02:15.David Bowie is preposterous, bluffing and booing. He's not the
:02:16. > :02:22.first levity to back Better Together. Let stand together and not
:02:23. > :02:28.let wrangling KERS be divided. Yes Scotland has its stars, too.
:02:29. > :02:33.In the past 15 years we have become stronger economically, socially,
:02:34. > :02:35.culturally and globally. The world is waiting for us.
:02:36. > :02:42.And they know that Scotland is ready. Even taking the message to
:02:43. > :02:48.the heart of New York. Why not try and see what happens? Life is just
:02:49. > :02:54.about moving forward. For those reasons, if I could vote, I would 40
:02:55. > :03:00.yes. Celebrity, politicians, media elites... Celebrity endorsements can
:03:01. > :03:04.go badly wrong. The most high-profile would be someone like
:03:05. > :03:08.Tiger Woods, who has presented a particular image through
:03:09. > :03:13.endorsements. That image is then revealed by the media to be
:03:14. > :03:21.inaccurate and suffers badly. The flip side is that you can have,
:03:22. > :03:25.particularly in the US, celebrity endorsements who then move into the
:03:26. > :03:29.political arena, from Clint Eastwood to Arnold Schwarzenegger. There is a
:03:30. > :03:34.way to which they can be that movement. It has not occurred yet
:03:35. > :03:38.much within the UK. But perhaps that is something we should keep an eye
:03:39. > :03:43.on for the future. Celebrity is moving into that political arena.
:03:44. > :03:48.Quite exposed. This is not an opening shot for David Bowie's
:03:49. > :03:53.political career? I expect at 67 any political ambition he may have maybe
:03:54. > :03:57.behind him. I expect that was not the driver of the intervention.
:03:58. > :04:02.Interestingly, some celebrities choose not to use television
:04:03. > :04:07.interviews to influence others. I try and keep a way out of it. I do
:04:08. > :04:13.not want to be an influence. I do not want to influence anybody. A lot
:04:14. > :04:19.of people take your word like it is spun gold. I do not want to
:04:20. > :04:25.influence anybody. So why shut up. I think the Scots will come to a good
:04:26. > :04:30.conclusion. In the referendum, they will get what they deserve. What
:04:31. > :04:34.about last night's intervention? Would it really make a difference?
:04:35. > :04:38.He does not actually live in this country so why do not see why he
:04:39. > :04:42.should have an opinion. He lives in New York now so where do not see why
:04:43. > :04:48.he should be butting in will stop I am not sure where his background is.
:04:49. > :04:52.Although he is a clever man. Those of us of a certain age know that
:04:53. > :04:56.from 35 years ago. He is a clever man and he has probably researched
:04:57. > :05:00.it. They have a right to say what they feel but people should be able
:05:01. > :05:07.to make their own minds up themselves. Some people might get
:05:08. > :05:09.swayed a bit. I do not see why we should be interested in David
:05:10. > :05:14.Bowie's opinion but eyelid in England so perhaps my opinion does
:05:15. > :05:18.not count that much either! One thing we know now is that after
:05:19. > :05:22.expressing his concern over constitutional changes, David Bowie
:05:23. > :05:32.is a firm supporter of Better Together. Right?
:05:33. > :05:40.I'm joined by Moray MacDonald, who runs the Scottish end of PR
:05:41. > :05:43.specialist Weber Shandwick. Jenny Lindsay is a performance poet who
:05:44. > :05:46.speaks tonight for the National Collective, a pro-independence arts
:05:47. > :05:50.group. And in London the singer and political activist, Billy Bragg.
:05:51. > :05:58.Jenny Lindsay, I'm curious, what do you make of David Bowie? Well,
:05:59. > :06:06.obviously he is a legend. In terms of what he said, to be honest, I
:06:07. > :06:10.mean, to me, he was not campaigning in any way. He was making a
:06:11. > :06:12.throwaway comment through the medium of Kate Moss. In terms of how much
:06:13. > :06:50.of an impact what he said will have, way. The fact that he did that...
:06:51. > :06:52.You would expect nothing less. He has been famous throughout his
:06:53. > :06:59.career for backing controversial ideas. And you have to wonder, was
:07:00. > :07:03.this a clever way of making sure that he was a dominant voice that
:07:04. > :07:08.came out of the awards. He certainly is. He has dominated the media. From
:07:09. > :07:10.a PR point of view, you could argue he has been successful and that
:07:11. > :07:15.might help him sell albums this year. Willie Bragg, what did you
:07:16. > :07:19.make of it? And was pleased to hear it. Our hope that some younger pop
:07:20. > :07:24.stars watching might think to themselves, well, he has got all the
:07:25. > :07:28.front pages from making a political comment. Maybe I should start doing
:07:29. > :07:34.that? I would love to see that. As a PR man, do you think that these
:07:35. > :07:39.things have the slightest impact? I do not think they have a huge
:07:40. > :07:42.effect. The one thing that this kind of intervention does, and are only
:07:43. > :07:47.so many celebrities who are big enough to this kind of fuss, I
:07:48. > :07:53.mean, if one direction had done this, they might have caused a fuss.
:07:54. > :07:55.But do not think it has an impact generally on how people would
:07:56. > :08:01.actually vote. The one positive thing that can come out of it is
:08:02. > :08:04.about getting groups who might not be so engaged in the political
:08:05. > :08:07.discussion to engage and think about it more. In fact, there was research
:08:08. > :08:11.done for the European marketing Journal that put that thesis forward
:08:12. > :08:18.that it was not necessarily changing people's votes, but this type of
:08:19. > :08:26.celebrity backing can get people who are normally disengaged with the
:08:27. > :08:32.process more engaged. I can see that with the Arctic Monkeys.
:08:33. > :08:36.David Bowie is a huge act. He appeals to an older generation and
:08:37. > :08:40.within that generation there are plenty of of undecided people who
:08:41. > :08:44.may not vote. The last election there was less than 60% of people
:08:45. > :08:48.voting. If there are interventions like this, from whatever aspect, it
:08:49. > :08:54.can only be a good thing. Do people take it seriously? I suspect not.
:08:55. > :08:58.Another piece of research in the States demonstrated when celebrities
:08:59. > :09:01.ens doed it had no effect and the main effect was on the opposite
:09:02. > :09:07.campaign having a negative impression of a celebrity making the
:09:08. > :09:13.endorsement. You were trying to come in? I think he has had an incredible
:09:14. > :09:18.effect on the debate. He has made Alistair Darling look hip. Who would
:09:19. > :09:23.have believed that? Just by that intervention. Celebrities have made
:09:24. > :09:27.interventions, Robbie burns was a celebrity when he went to Edinburgh.
:09:28. > :09:32.An English newspaper offered him a gig, you know, Flower of Scotland
:09:33. > :09:38.was written by a celebrity, this has been way, I think your thesis he has
:09:39. > :09:44.made Alistair Darling look hip needs some development. I mean the point,
:09:45. > :09:50.is that bow you comes from the late 20th century when music was the only
:09:51. > :09:52.social medium open to us if we wanted to talk about anything. That
:09:53. > :09:57.was the only opportunity I had when I was 19. Now young people if they
:09:58. > :10:02.want to say something they have so many media #0e7 open to them on the
:10:03. > :10:06.internet. Music no longer carries that vanguard role in society, and I
:10:07. > :10:11.think Bowie's intervention has reminded us how powerful it can be.
:10:12. > :10:18.What do you think? Do you think it has any effect? In terms of what
:10:19. > :10:24.MORI was saying it can add something to the debate in erms of getting us
:10:25. > :10:29.talking and adding sparkle and comedy, I mean, I think when thing,
:10:30. > :10:32.one thing that has come out of his speech, is a lot of punning going
:10:33. > :10:39.on, on Twitter, which you know, a bit of comedy is fine. Somebody is
:10:40. > :10:45.telling me, a late breaking info you are a David Bowie fan? Yes, of of
:10:46. > :10:50.course. You don't agree with him on this particular thing? You don't
:10:51. > :10:56.resent the fact he... No, I don't resent, I don't resent anybody
:10:57. > :11:01.voicing an opinion of sorts, I mean, do think what he said was not so
:11:02. > :11:06.much an opinion, as a sort of instruction, and I think that would
:11:07. > :11:10.be useful is if people sort of put forward their views on the Scottish
:11:11. > :11:15.independence debate were more engaged with what that debate is
:11:16. > :11:19.about, which is democracy and self determination, it is not about
:11:20. > :11:25.drifting off into the North Sea, and, I suppose, sort of following on
:11:26. > :11:31.from what Moray was saying about adding the sparkle. I think what
:11:32. > :11:38.cases like this do highlight is... The campaign is is really led by the
:11:39. > :11:41.grass roots, by ordinary people, organising sessions, by cultural
:11:42. > :11:45.activists really. I take your point, but if that is true, why do you
:11:46. > :11:50.think it is that both sides in this, both the yes campaign and the better
:11:51. > :11:55.together campaign, are happy to parade any celebrity they can get
:11:56. > :11:59.their hands on? I think, to be honest with you, perhaps what we are
:12:00. > :12:03.talking about now might highlight why that might be, think that
:12:04. > :12:08.celebrity endorsements are one thing, having a celebrity saying I
:12:09. > :12:14.am voting yes, or no, but the real important work is done by the people
:12:15. > :12:20.who use their celebrity, or the fact they are well-known or renowned,
:12:21. > :12:26.playwrights or poets, to become cultural activists. That, a rather
:12:27. > :12:31.keys into what I was going to say to Billy Bragg, you are in a different
:12:32. > :12:34.position, because you have been a political activist and tried to use
:12:35. > :12:40.your music to further political causes throughout your career. That
:12:41. > :12:46.is what Jenny is talking about. That is a different thing from what David
:12:47. > :12:49.Bowie is making a remark is about? David doesn't have form in these
:12:50. > :12:52.issues I have been writing about a national identity for the last
:12:53. > :12:56.decade, initially in response to the rise of the British National Party
:12:57. > :12:59.in England, but the debate is about the Scottish identity and the way
:13:00. > :13:03.the Scottish identity has changed over the past 30 year, for those of
:13:04. > :13:07.us in England who are looking at ourselves and thinking, how do we
:13:08. > :13:13.find that way of sort of a new sense of self? How do we come together?
:13:14. > :13:17.Whether it is yes or not for independence, Scotland is definitely
:13:18. > :13:23.changing in its sense of who... We are watching and thinking how does
:13:24. > :13:26.it happen? Having tried to be an activist through your music s as
:13:27. > :13:30.well as producing music which I know you hope people will listen to even
:13:31. > :13:35.if they don't agree with your politics, do you feel you have been
:13:36. > :13:38.successful, and if so, how? Well, it is hard to measures it is very hard
:13:39. > :13:42.to measure that kind of thing. Music doesn't change the world, people
:13:43. > :13:46.change the world. It will be decided by the Scottish people in September,
:13:47. > :13:49.but music does have a role to play, it can offer people a different
:13:50. > :13:54.perspective. It can encourage people, we are not, musicians are
:13:55. > :13:58.not as Jenny was saying as cultural activists we are not here to lead,
:13:59. > :14:01.but we are here to point the way. I think that is the most we can co-.
:14:02. > :14:07.Does that still work is this you seem to be implying a few minutes
:14:08. > :14:10.ago, that role for music had to a large extent gone? I think in the
:14:11. > :14:14.way young people think about musicians, it is no longer, the only
:14:15. > :14:18.social media available to them. People got on to Twitter, I was
:14:19. > :14:21.following that David Bowie punning hashtag lasting night. That is how
:14:22. > :14:26.people were expressing their response to Bowie, rather than
:14:27. > :14:28.writing to the NME which sounds like a Stone Age thing to do, doesn't it.
:14:29. > :14:33.The important thing is more people can take part in the debate, when it
:14:34. > :14:38.was only people who could get up on stage and sing, that is a high bar.
:14:39. > :14:41.Now with the internet, everybody can make their contribution, obviously
:14:42. > :14:47.you have to deal with negatives there as well. But broadly, I think,
:14:48. > :14:51.the debates I have taken part of in the internet, since I started
:14:52. > :14:55.speaking in fayre of Scottish independence they have been
:14:56. > :15:01.positive. Putting your PR hat on for a moment. Given both side are in
:15:02. > :15:05.this debate are keen to claim any individuals or businesses that will
:15:06. > :15:09.come out on one side or the other, what do you advice a business coming
:15:10. > :15:14.to you and saying is we are not sure what to do, we feel, we feel one way
:15:15. > :15:18.or the other but should we say it? What do you say? This is something
:15:19. > :15:23.we advice a lot of businesses on. And it is a tricky one, I mean, if a
:15:24. > :15:27.business has a fundamental concern, that independence or lack of
:15:28. > :15:31.independence might impact them, by hundreds of millions of pounds or a
:15:32. > :15:34.big issue for them, then they clearly should take a stance,
:15:35. > :15:37.because that will impact their business. If it is just because
:15:38. > :15:40.people in the board on some Chief Executive has a general view that
:15:41. > :15:45.maybe we should be going this way, my advice would be to try and stay
:15:46. > :15:50.clear of it. It is a very vicious debate and it will be more vicious
:15:51. > :15:54.over the next few moneys. There is no real reason for any business to
:15:55. > :15:58.get involved in that, unless they can pick a real business reason for
:15:59. > :16:02.it. I advise then to stay out of it. All they will get is negative from
:16:03. > :16:07.one half of the campaign and their chances of having a real impact on
:16:08. > :16:13.that, on the actual vote are very very slim.
:16:14. > :16:17.Now, Jenny, the completely different approach taken by another sainted
:16:18. > :16:22.celebrity, Billy Connolly, who in that we saw in that interview
:16:23. > :16:26.saying, I think it is up to people in Scotland. People sometimes follow
:16:27. > :16:31.what I am saying he made a joke, I don't want that to happen. Is that,
:16:32. > :16:36.what do you make of that approach? I think that is valid. It is
:16:37. > :16:40.completely a personal choice. In terms of the, of the yes side of the
:16:41. > :16:47.campaign, and national collective which is the part I am involved
:16:48. > :16:52.with, it is not a case of sort of lining up tally list of celebrities
:16:53. > :16:56.who we want to endorse, a yes vote. It is about finding voices and
:16:57. > :17:00.offering a platform for people who have something to say and want to
:17:01. > :17:04.say it. This campaign is exceptionally exciting and it is
:17:05. > :17:08.about people, it is about democracy and it is about the grass roots, and
:17:09. > :17:14.those are the voices that we want to hear from, grass roots artist, grass
:17:15. > :17:19.roots music, and poets. Only last night we had an open session in
:17:20. > :17:23.Edinburgh which was attended by about 40, 50 people, this is people
:17:24. > :17:28.who are voting yes, but also undecided people, coming along,
:17:29. > :17:31.hearing music, story, hearing personal journeys to a yes vote and
:17:32. > :17:35.engaging with that. That kind of thing is going on all across the
:17:36. > :17:40.country. It is largely unreported, obviously. Which is a shame, but it,
:17:41. > :17:44.that is going to make the difference. What do you make of
:17:45. > :17:49.Billy Connolly's stance on this? It is a different one, but it is, it is
:17:50. > :17:54.also quite sensible, he worries that his status who as a celebrity will
:17:55. > :17:57.be taken seriously by people, if he spoke out, and would somehow
:17:58. > :18:01.influence them, he thinks it's a bad thing, a pretty reasonable point of
:18:02. > :18:05.view isn't it? I don't think it is much of a stance. I don't think you
:18:06. > :18:09.can call it a stance, it is more of a sitting out of the debate. I
:18:10. > :18:13.respect that, but you know, the gentleman from the PR company was
:18:14. > :18:17.talking about the business case, people like David Bowie, people in
:18:18. > :18:21.my industry, poet, artist, creative people, we, you know, we don't write
:18:22. > :18:24.from the pocket like business does, we are not thinking about what is
:18:25. > :18:28.going on in the pocket. We are trying to write from the heart. I
:18:29. > :18:31.believe the Scottish independence debate will be decided by the heart
:18:32. > :18:33.of Scotland rather than the pocket of Scotland, I think we have a
:18:34. > :18:39.contribution to make. Right. You are snorting quietly in
:18:40. > :18:43.the background. To say the music industry is not about money is
:18:44. > :18:49.nonsense. You are talking about the record industry there, I am talking
:18:50. > :18:55.about those of us who write songs and go gigs. David Bowie has made a
:18:56. > :19:00.lot of money and he is looking to make more. Jenny's point is more
:19:01. > :19:04.important. It will get big news store I are, we are interested in
:19:05. > :19:08.tittle-tattle. The way the referendum will be won or loss is
:19:09. > :19:12.how people on the ground vote. It is about how the parties the manage the
:19:13. > :19:17.data and get people talking to each other. If the parties can get
:19:18. > :19:21.communities and individuals and neighbours to speak to even, that
:19:22. > :19:27.will be more powerful than people and how they vote. You are on the
:19:28. > :19:32.deside. Yes You are our celebrity coming out for yes. For the sake of
:19:33. > :19:37.balance you are our celebrity coming out. I will have to stay in the
:19:38. > :19:42.undecided camp. You are now undecided, you have switched? Billy
:19:43. > :19:49.Connolly is already having an effect. Thank you. A quick look at
:19:50. > :19:57.the front-pages. The Scottish Daily Mail says the fears grow over a yes
:19:58. > :20:04.vote. 30,000 jobs cut in a vast shake-up and a picture of the
:20:05. > :20:07.Ukraine. That is all from me. We will be back next week, until then,
:20:08. > :20:21.good night. Good evening. After a chilly night
:20:22. > :20:25.and maybe a touch of frost in places, Friday is going to be a
:20:26. > :20:29.bright day for most of us, with occasional shower, some will be
:20:30. > :20:34.heavy. There will be could be hail and thunder. Scotland and Northern
:20:35. > :20:35.Ireland. Northern Ireland, and many of these western and